Geocaching Competition - advice wanted

[johngo.pdx]

Hello geocaching amigos,

I would like some guidance and suggestions from the expert community here regarding a competitive geocaching event that I am helping to plan. Your constructive suggestions and advice are welcome.

First off, I understand that some people do not see geocaching as a competitive deal, more of a hobby, pastime, etc. I get that. However, for those of you who might like to test your skills against others, a little competition might be a fine thing once in a while. If you don't care for the competitive aspect, feel free to skip ahead to another post.

There are a few moving parts to this, so please bear with me while I explain how this might work.

I am former president of and active member in the Columbia River Orienteering Club based in Portland Oregon. 

Website - www.croc.org

page for this event: http://www.croc.org/events/2018/9/16/boyd-ice-caves-navigation-race

Orienteering, the sport of land navigation, is a very close relative to geocaching. In an orienteering competition, participants try to find a series of checkpoints that are marked on the map by using map and compass only, either point to point as fast as you can, or find as many points over a large area within a specific time. Orienteering can happen in small local parks with very detailed maps, or over a very large area with relatively small scale maps, like 1:25,000.

• My club (CROC) is planning a "navigation race" (aka long distance orienteering competition) in September 2018 near Bend, Oregon, about 15 miles SE of town. 
• The map scale will be be about 1:25000, and might cover about 20 square miles. Terrain is pretty flat, mostly open forest.
• The checkpoints on the map will have different point values. Check points that are farther away on the map perimeter have a higher point value than those closer into the starting area.
• You can go to the checkpoints in any order you want.
• You have either 3 or 6 hours to try to score as many points as possible and return to the finish area.
• Part of the strategy is planning your route to get the maximum amount of points with in your chosen timeframe.
• Typically the course is set so no one other than a world-class runner AND orienteering expert would have a chance of finding all of the control points within the time limit. So, planning a reasonable route for your fitness and skill level is a key component.

Rather than an ammo-can type geocache, you are looking for an orange and white box-kite-looking control flag which is placed exactly at the indicated point on the map. (These are easy to see from a distance and are unambiguous, unlike many geocaches!)

To prove that you visited that checkpoint, participants will carry an electronic scoring device called a fingerstick. When you find the control flag, you put the fingerstick into a box that's on the flag, which transmits the checkpoint number and exact time on to your fingerstick. At the end of the event, the data from your finger stick are downloaded and results calculated. My club provides these fingersticks free for all participants.

So, here's the proposal - My club is considering opening this orienteering competition to geocachers.

Here's how this might work:

• There would be separate divisions / results for geocachers and map and compass orienteering teams.
• You can do the event either as an individual or team.
• On the morning of the event, about one hour prior to the actual start time, geocaching teams would get a printed list of coordinates of the various checkpoints, and a map with the points marked. 
• Teams would have an hour or so to enter the points into their GPS and plan a route that they think it is feasible within their chosen timeframe.
• At the start time, teams will head off in all different directions, trying to find is many checkpoints and any order that they want within their chosen time period.
• You do not have to be Joe Pro trail runner to compete. Many people enjoy orienteering at a casual walking pace.
• Results are calculated and published on our website if you days after the event.

So . . .

• Does this sound like something that geocache folks would be interested in?
• Has anyone done a similar competition like this before?
• What general advice can you offer about this idea?
• What questions do you have about things that I have not addressed?

Constructive suggestions are much appreciated.

My orienteering club his put on hundreds of shorter events and about a dozen long distance events like this, but opening it to geocaching would be a new step for us. If we do it, we want to do it right, and the expertise on this forum could perhaps help that happen.

Thank you,

John

 

[johngo.pdx]

 . . . Anyone?

Has anybody done a competition similar to this?

What was your experience like?

What makes a geocaching competition successful or something else?

[+noncentric]

I'm a bit confused. It sounds like you're proposing to allow geocachers to participate in your orienteering event? If so, then I don't see the point of this. Why not just have an amateur division in your event, that either geocachers or general public can participate in.

If I'm not understanding you correctly, then let me know.

[+cerberus1]

Years ago we attended a couple events that were competitive (googling "geocaching shotgun start event" sometimes comes up) finding multiple caches placed by the EO, to be permanent when the event was over.  It was an option to enter the competition, or simply meet at the beginning for coffee n donuts when all teams left, or for pizza or something at the end, when it was assumed most would be done.

Five or better teams (made up of couples or families usually), given an envelope with a little kid's puzzle back and coordinates to the first cache.  Every team had a different starting point from the morning event area.  Each cache had an envelope with a puzzle piece (with partial cords on back) and the coordinates to the next cache for each team.  Designed so few teams ever bump into each other.  Prizes at the end for first to last.  Exhaustive but kinda fun. 

Fortunately the other 2/3rds doesn't compete in any part of this hobby any longer, so I get to now play my way.   

[+Touchstone]

From your description, it sounds a bit like a Rogain Race

[+cerberus1]

I sorta agree with noncentric, and IIRC, geocaching events can't be added to an existing non-geocaching event, so "opening this orienteering competition to geocachers" may not be feasible.  A mail to your Reviewer to be sure would help.

[+noncentric]

True, as cerberus1 mentioned, it would've be possible to have an official geocaching 'event' if there is already an orienteering event happening there. In other words, the event could not be published as an "Event Cache".

I'm familiar with the sport of orienteering, as I know some people that are very active in the orienteering community local to me. For me, the biggest hurdle I see with the OP's proposal is that it seems to separate orienteers and geocachers. It is completely possible that an orienteer also geocaches. They do not have to mutually exclusive. The orienteering club in my local area will occasionally host 'introductory' events, where novices can learn about orienteering. Those novices could be geocachers or non-geocachers. I don't see the purpose behind "opening it to geocaching", when it sounds like the course would still be a regular orienteering course.

[+palmetto]

Your biggest problem will be reaching geocachers. You cannot list this as Geocaching Event. You cannot create a Geocaching Event as a section, division, location within an existing event.

The Squiggy Classic Adventure race in the year it was held in the Wilderness parks north of the Tampa Bay area (2006 or 2007?) attempted a  Geocacher division. I know because they tried to list it as a Geocaching event, and I explained that it could not be.    I did advise on a couple of cachers who might be interested, but sans any effective way to reach out to geocachers, no one came.  

 

[+narcissa]

Honestly, if it doesn't involve actual geocaches that count towards people's stats, you probably won't attract many geocachers.

[+coman123]

This may be a fun "game" to add to events held at a Mega event, but I do not see it being popular as an event on its own.

PS I do enjoy orienteering as well.

[+hzoi]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:17 PM, johngo.pdx said:

What general advice can you offer about this idea?

Just because it can't be a geocaching event, doesn't mean local geocachers won't be interested.  Check on facebook for local geocaching groups and see if you can post this there.  There may be a good link in the Northwest USA forum -- see the sticky post "Geocaching Organizations in the Northwest."

You can also, of course, just post this in the Northwest USA forum, but a local geocaching group's facebook page may see more traffic.

Hope you generate some interest.

[+The A-Team]

On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, johngo.pdx said:

Orienteering, the sport of land navigation, is a very close relative to geocaching.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with geocaching, but this isn't really accurate. At best, orienteering and geocaching are second cousins, twice removed. They both occur outdoors and include elements of navigation, but that's about it as far as similarity. Simply navigating from your house to someone else's is just as closely-related in this respect.

As you've described it, your proposal actually doesn't involve geocaching at all. From what I can tell, your proposal would be to create a new division within which GPS usage would be allowed on the orienteering course. While there may be geocachers who would be interested in participating (or any other member of the general public with a GPS device, for that matter), they wouldn't be geocaching. They'd be participating in a variation of orienteering using GPS.

As far as finding people to participate, the suggestions from others above are good. Just keep in mind that there may be non-geocachers who could be just as interested, but those could be a bit harder to target and notify.

[+fuzziebear3]

MOGA is a geocaching mega event that includes a number of competitions, and one of the competitions uses orienteering style logging.

Here is the 2018 version https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC701KJ_moga-2018?guid=7309c15e-07f0-42f7-a598-351ca6837916#

and here was the 2017 version https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6A1AA_moga-2017?guid=c5761d98-558e-448e-89c0-4642bbde2a97#

I think I heard that 2018 will be the last year for this event.

 

[johngo.pdx]

On 1/19/2018 at 2:35 AM, narcissa said:

Honestly, if it doesn't involve actual geocaches that count towards people's stats, you probably won't attract many geocachers.

Narcissa, Thank you for your comment about this aspect of the event. I thought that perhaps geocachers would find the true reward as the thrill of the find and successfully navigating to a point, without having the points necessarily contributing to their lifetime tally of successful geocache finds. Yes, you are correct, people who only want to add to their tally which can be quantified online would probably not be interested in this event.

[johngo.pdx]

On 1/18/2018 at 7:26 PM, Touchstone said:

From your description, it sounds a bit like a Rogain Race

Hi Touchstone, Indeed, you are correct, it is pretty much a Rogaine race. Similar to geocaching, orienteering has its own internal jargon and shorthand that is sometimes in penetrable to outsiders. A long-distance orienteering event, called a Rogaine, was supposedly named after the three Aussie guys Rod, Gail and Neil (RoGaiNe, get it?) who invented it. However, the term means nothing to anyone who is new to the sport, and therefore many orienteering clubs are using the term "navigation race" or "adventure running", or some similar type of term, to describe these kind of events now.

 

 

[johngo.pdx]

On 1/18/2018 at 6:47 PM, noncentric said:

I'm a bit confused. It sounds like you're proposing to allow geocachers to participate in your orienteering event? If so, then I don't see the point of this. Why not just have an amateur division in your event, that either geocachers or general public can participate in.

If I'm not understanding you correctly, then let me know.

Noncentric, Yes, that's pretty much it, to allow geocachers to participate in an existing orienteering event. We have a custom made map, control marker flags that will be precisely set using GPS, and it seems sensible to me to have a geocaching and division in which people could use our collected waypoints to try to navigate to the flags, finding as many as possible within a fixed time limit. 

[johngo.pdx]

On 1/19/2018 at 6:51 AM, hzoi said:

Just because it can't be a geocaching event, doesn't mean local geocachers won't be interested.  Check on facebook for local geocaching groups and see if you can post this there.  There may be a good link in the Northwest USA forum -- see the sticky post "Geocaching Organizations in the Northwest."

You can also, of course, just post this in the Northwest USA forum, but a local geocaching group's facebook page may see more traffic.

Hope you generate some interest.

Hzoi, Hey did find that sticky post of northwest geocaching organizations, thank you. Many of the websites and Facebook groups there seem out of date or essentially inactive, but there are a few in there that are functioning. I think I'll make another posting about it on the NW USA forum; I didn't know that existed, thanks for the suggestion and encouragement.

[johngo.pdx]

On 1/19/2018 at 0:46 PM, The A-Team said:

I'm not sure how familiar you are with geocaching, but this isn't really accurate. At best, orienteering and geocaching are second cousins, twice removed. They both occur outdoors and include elements of navigation, but that's about it as far as similarity. Simply navigating from your house to someone else's is just as closely-related in this respect.

As you've described it, your proposal actually doesn't involve geocaching at all. From what I can tell, your proposal would be to create a new division within which GPS usage would be allowed on the orienteering course. While there may be geocachers who would be interested in participating (or any other member of the general public with a GPS device, for that matter), they wouldn't be geocaching. They'd be participating in a variation of orienteering using GPS.

As far as finding people to participate, the suggestions from others above are good. Just keep in mind that there may be non-geocachers who could be just as interested, but those could be a bit harder to target and notify.

Well, you could certainly split hairs in the definition and find lots of ways how the activities are different, but at the core, I still feel they are quite similar. Go explore outdoor places, have a predefined tangible objective you are trying to find, and use either a GPS or a map/compass to do so. Seems pretty close to me. Because of the similarity in the essential elements, I thought there could be some crossover of interest between the two groups. That's why am posting here and trying to get a sense of the level of interest, which at the moment seems like not much.

[+Harry Dolphin]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:17 PM, johngo.pdx said:

Orienteering, the sport of land navigation, is a very close relative to geocaching. In an orienteering competition, participants try to find a series of checkpoints that are marked on the map by using map and compass only, either point to point as fast as you can, or find as many points over a large area within a specific time. Orienteering can happen in small local parks with very detailed maps, or over a very large area with relatively small scale maps, like 1:25,000.

Hmm...  Orienteering and geocaching...  I don't have much experience with orienteering.  (We had fun surveying my parents' vacation property...)

And, of course,  not all geocachers nor those into orienteering are the most social of people...  There was a cache hidden nearby by someone into orienteering.  The CO was visiting a camp, and introducing a 6th grade class to GPSr usage.  The CO lives about eighty miles away.  No finds.  One hide.  The coords were about two miles off.  There was a description on getting there from the private camp.  Three DNFs.  I got some very insulting e-mail about no knowing how to use a GPSr.  Cache is probably still there, nine years later.  

Probably not a good example.  Not a very social person.  But it does not leave me with good feelings.  Now, if I could find a parking spot on the narrow road...

[+Viajero Perdido]

5 hours ago, johngo.pdx said:

A long-distance orienteering event, called a Rogaine, was supposedly named after the three Aussie guys Rod, Gail and Neil (RoGaiNe, get it?) who invented it.

I always thought it was, Rugged Outdoor Group Activity Involving Navigation And Endurance.

That's how it was described in the magazine article (remember those things?) where I first heard of it.  And I thought, wow, very cool.

BTW, I sometimes do a bit of caching in the middle of an orienteering course.  I only peek at the GPS when nobody's looking (and my spidey sense tells me I might be near a cache), find the cache, then put the unit away and go back to the "O" course.  Of course I don't get a great time that way, but who cares?

[+Joe_L]

I regularly take part in both geocaching and orienteering.  As noted before, other than finding something in the woods, they are different activities.

 

Some other considerations:

If you are giving the cachers the same maps as the orienteers, then the cachers might as well be orienteering.  (In your post, it sounds like the map is a USGS quad.  Not as much detail as compared to a typical 1:10,000 or 1:15,000 orienteering map. )

 

Consider the planning that one must do for a 3-hour or 6-hour course. The time for entering the coordinates into the GPSr devices will cut into the cachers planning time.  Not to mention the potential for error.

 

The geocachers may not even have an appreciation for the planning that is needed for the event.  In particular, the distance that they can cover in the allotted time.  Climb can be overlooked by a novice, but maybe the terrain is so flat that it’s not an issue.

 

The geocachers may not be able to read maps.  Will they be given any instruction?  Can you spare a volunteer to do that?

 

You should require the cachers to carry an extra set of batteries and a compass. 

 

 

The only benefit I see is that you may get some cachers interested in orienteering.  They will be learning it to some degree as they use the GPSr with the map.

 

 

 

Joe

 

[+noncentric]

On 1/20/2018 at 3:44 PM, johngo.pdx said:

Noncentric, Yes, that's pretty much it, to allow geocachers to participate in an existing orienteering event. We have a custom made map, control marker flags that will be precisely set using GPS, and it seems sensible to me to have a geocaching and division in which people could use our collected waypoints to try to navigate to the flags, finding as many as possible within a fixed time limit. 

I didn't key in on GPSr use from your OP. So, perhaps have a 'GPSr' division, instead of a 'geocacher' division. It sounds like device usage is really the main differentiation between the two divisions, right? I mean, both divisions would be 'finding' the same checkpoint and navigating the same terrain, the only difference is that one would be using map/compass while the other is allowed to use a GPSr. You could even include GPS apps on smartphones in that 'GPSr' division, although you'd probably want to remind participants to download maps of the area ahead of time if the course is not in an area of reliable cell reception.

I think that focusing on GPSr usage, rather than geocaching, would (1) attract a wider group of non-orienteers, as you'd be attracting people that are interested in navigation, regardless of whether they geocache or not, and (2) properly set expectations for what the event is about, as it's really not about finding geocaches. For some/many/most(?) geocachers, a large part of the thrill is "finding" the hidden cache, not just getting themselves to the coord locations. Orienteering markers are very easy to spot once arriving at the coord locations, so that 'thrill of the find' doesn't exist.

[+cerberus1]

3 hours ago, noncentric said:

I think that focusing on GPSr usage, rather than geocaching, would (1) attract a wider group of non-orienteers, as you'd be attracting people that are interested in navigation, regardless of whether they geocache or not, and (2) properly set expectations for what the event is about, as it's really not about finding geocaches.

Yeah...   I've received quite a few calls/emails on what (to me) was a simple cache that just required multiple projected waypoints.  Was really surprised that so many didn't understand the basics of what their GPSrs can do.    We haven't had any takers on showing them how yet, but I'd bet there's a few non-cachers who'd like to learn in a group.  

 

[+CAPTAINVALPO96]

I’m interested in this. Am I able to contact the owner that has geocaches down a trail about 528 feet from each other and put in a stamp (that says the name of the cache) that they stamp on their card and claim as a find?