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Highlands_Guy

Can you log an event if you attend via the Internet?

122 posts in this topic

33 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Hopefully they'll gain the impression that the caching community is filled with lively and engaged people who can feel free to openly discuss their differing opinions.

You're hopelessly optimistic! :lol:

Heard it many times at events and such, people complaining about how tough our forums are and that this turned them off enough to not want to come back. But at the same time, i guess there's not much of a worry about this these days since most people use phones. Just not a whole lot of action around here except when one of these lively threads appears... :P

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18 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

To post an "Attended" log on a geocaching event, you must have been at the coordinates of the event during the designated time period. 

Can you post a link to the page where it says this?

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19 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

Can you post a link to the page where it says this?

After a 0.01 second search, here

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

Can you post a link to the page where it says this?

Easy

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14 minutes ago, on4bam said:

After a 0.01 second search, here

 

 

 

My search took 0.02 seconds apparently ! :lol:

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2 hours ago, hal-an-tow said:

All the combative sophistry is irrelevant, and just makes me wonder about what psychology underlies it,  and worry about what sort of impression it gives of the caching community to new visitors.

I hope my posts don't come across as combative sophistry. I'm just discussing a topic that I find interesting with others who (hopefully) also find it interesting.

 

5 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

And I can't personally see the point of linking locations by teleconference station if the two 'events' are close enough together that the attendees can interact with each other face to face so to me that doesn't make sense at all and would actually seem to be the opposite of what Groundspeak has in mind in its steering of geocaching events - YMMV.

Well, if the community center rooms are right next door to each other, then it might not be that important to link the two groups with teleconference stations. Then again, I've had online conversations with people at work who were sitting at cubicles within spitting distance of my own. (Not that I would actually verify the spitting distance thing, because... you know, proper office decorum and all that.)

But I think there is certainly a range of distances where the two community centers would be close enough that Groundspeak would balk at listing them separately because they'd consider it "event stacking", but the two community centers would be far enough that attendees interested in socializing wouldn't want to spend time traveling back and forth between the two locations just to see everyone. Within that range, I think linking the venues with teleconference stations makes sense (because they're far enough apart to inhibit socialization), and listing them as a single event with multiple locations makes sense (because they're close enough to trigger "event stacking").

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23 minutes ago, niraD said:
3 hours ago, hal-an-tow said:

All the combative sophistry is irrelevant, and just makes me wonder about what psychology underlies it,  and worry about what sort of impression it gives of the caching community to new visitors.

I hope my posts don't come across as combative sophistry. I'm just discussing a topic that I find interesting with others who (hopefully) also find it interesting.

And likewise. I get very flustered when I see critical opinions posted that I believe (key) are solely based on personal tastes and don't further discussion, and then I run off on a moral policing crusade. All I like to see is people getting along and being reasonable in disagreements. But often I fall into the boat of being the target of my own words.

In this case, I was following the premise posed by the initial link, and the sentiment shared by Touchstone. The latest guideline link solidifies the point that yes, attendees need to be "at the event coordinates", which I believe everyone agrees is 'normal'. That doesn't change the fact that exceptions can always be made, but that's true of any of the guidelines, so isn't worth battling over.
My primary point, which I still stand by, but which I pushed much too far here going off the rails and for which I apologize, is the moral "It's ok to not like things, just don't be a jerk about it."  It's far too easy to hold that view so strongly to the point that it applies even to the people who espouse it. I still need to work on knowing when not to talk. =P

It's the end of the year.  The forums are a bastion for bringing out the worst in people, myself included. We don't all have to be best of friends, but we can all proceed with respect and ... ah well, here I go again, eh?

Ok, off to finish off the year. Happy caching, folks. :cool:

 

30 minutes ago, niraD said:

But I think there is certainly a range of distances where the two community centers would be close enough that Groundspeak would balk at listing them separately because they'd consider it "event stacking", but the two community centers would be far enough that attendees interested in socializing wouldn't want to spend time traveling back and forth between the two locations just to see everyone. Within that range, I think linking the venues with teleconference stations makes sense (because they're far enough apart to inhibit socialization), and listing them as a single event with multiple locations makes sense (because they're close enough to trigger "event stacking").

The concept of multi-waypoint events is an interesting one.  I'd love to hear from HQ what they thought of the idea.  I'm willing to bet something like that's been tried, but told that event must be at the posted coordinates, with alternate waypoints being references for optional activities and whatnot. It's an interesting compromise.  What about claiming the event though? The stats would only show the listing as at the posted coordinates, even if the event equally took place at two simultaneous locations. But then if they're close enough to each other the statistical difference would be negligible.  I guess the sticking point might be whether the EO publicly allows people to 'attend' the event from the alt waypoint or not.

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47 minutes ago, niraD said:

but the two community centers would be far enough that attendees interested in socializing wouldn't want to spend time traveling back and forth between the two locations just to see everyone.

Respectfully, if the attendees at the two locations can't be bothered traversing the distance between the two locations in order to socialise properly with the people at each of them then they are clearly only in it for the smiley anyway - hence the event stacking rule, I guess.

 

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17 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:
1 hour ago, niraD said:

but the two community centers would be far enough that attendees interested in socializing wouldn't want to spend time traveling back and forth between the two locations just to see everyone.

Respectfully, if the attendees at the two locations can't be bothered traversing the distance between the two locations in order to socialise properly with the people at each of them then they are clearly only in it for the smiley anyway - hence the event stacking rule, I guess.

For a two hour event, if the two locations are half an hour apart, then traveling to the other location and back would consume half the event time. Attendees interested in socialization might prefer to take advantage of the teleconference stations, rather than waste an hour traveling there and back.

And for some of us, interacting via teleconference systems or other online tools is not at all improper.

People who are just in it for the smiley will spend the two hours traveling from one location to another, spending 30 seconds at each to collect the smiley. That is not what I am talking about.

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18 minutes ago, niraD said:

For a two hour event, if the two locations are half an hour apart, then traveling to the other location and back would consume half the event time. Attendees interested in socialization might prefer to take advantage of the teleconference stations, rather than waste an hour traveling there and back.

And for some of us, interacting via teleconference systems or other online tools is not at all improper.

People who are just in it for the smiley will spend the two hours traveling from one location to another, spending 30 seconds at each to collect the smiley. That is not what I am talking about.

If the locations are half an hour apart they are individual events.

If you want to attend both, attend both. If you don't, don't.

Interacting via teleconference systems and geocaching event attendance are two completely different things.

If those people are willing to spend two hours travelling from one location to another and spend 30 seconds at each to get the smiley then good luck to them - at least the actually attended both events as per the guidelines.

Simples.

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On 12/22/2017 at 8:54 PM, TriciaG said:

Why did Groundspeak remove the requirement to physically sign in at an event? (I assume they removed it; perhaps it was never a rule/guideline, but now they specifically say that you are not required to sign in.) If I had my druthers, I'd make that as much a requirement as at a physical cache - attended logs by those whose names aren't in the log may be deleted by the event CO.

I suppose, though, there's less incentive for a CO to audit a physical log. Many of 'em probably want as many people to log "attended" as they can, even if they didn't sign in. :ph34r:

Logbooks have never been required at events.  I never even saw a logbook at an event until about 7 or 8 years ago. It seems to be the norm now, but once was rare.   Because logbooks are optional, there has never been a requirement to sign them. 

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8 minutes ago, briansnat said:

Logbooks have never been required at events.  I never even saw a logbook at an event until about 7 or 8 years ago. It seems to be the norm now, but once was rare.   Because logbooks are optional, there has never been a requirement to sign them. 

As far as I'm aware a cacher can't even be required to interact with any other person at the event - even to verify their attendance which means that literally anyone could claim they attended any event and log accordingly and simply claim that they didn't interact with anyone else for any reason at all there's nothing anyone could do about it.

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1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

If the locations are half an hour apart they are individual events.

Maybe. Maybe not. They might not be allowed as individual events thanks to the "event stacking" prohibition.

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

Interacting via teleconference systems and geocaching event attendance are two completely different things.

Are they really? Why?

I have used teleconference systems to attend business meetings, to attend workshops, to visit with friends/family, to work on puzzles or play games with friends, to interview for jobs, etc. These have all been interactive experiences, not just "watching a video".

Why couldn't I add geocaching event attendance to that list? I don't need to be present to sign the event logbook. If I'm using a teleconference system, then I cannot physically touch other geocachers, but I rarely do that anyway. And I cannot drop off or pick up trackables, but I don't do that very often either.

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13 minutes ago, niraD said:
2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

If the locations are half an hour apart they are individual events.

Maybe. Maybe not. They might not be allowed as individual events thanks to the "event stacking" prohibition.

Under what circumstances would they be allowed / disallowed?

 

14 minutes ago, niraD said:
2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Interacting via teleconference systems and geocaching event attendance are two completely different things.

Are they really? Why?

I have used teleconference systems to attend business meetings, to attend workshops, to visit with friends/family, to work on puzzles or play games with friends, to interview for jobs, etc. These have all been interactive experiences, not just "watching a video".

Why couldn't I add geocaching event attendance to that list? I don't need to be present to sign the event logbook. If I'm using a teleconference system, then I cannot physically touch other geocachers, but I rarely do that anyway. And I cannot drop off or pick up trackables, but I don't do that very often either.

 

Because at this moment in time to the best of my knowledge interacting via teleconference systems isn't defined within the geocaching guidelines as an acceptable method of attending a geocaching event.

I've used teleconference systems to 'attend' business meetings etc also and yes - they were forms of interaction - but still quite different from the forms of interaction I would associate with the geocaching events that I've been to.

Unless of course you can tell me otherwise and convince me that those two types of experience are so alike that nobody could tell them apart?

 

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Twenty years from  now, geocaching events will be like the meetings in the Kingsman movies, where everyone is wearing virtual reality glasses and sitting around a table to converse, although they are really all around the world. ;)

Sounds like an idea for a GIFF film. :ph34r:

 

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1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

Under what circumstances would they be allowed / disallowed?

From the guidelines:

Quote

Event stacking

Submit events as one single event if your event has one of the following

  • Several elements
  • A sequence of events
  • Events that are near the same time or location
  • Intended for the same audience

Additional waypoints may be added to the Event Cache page for the locations of event activities.

Yeah, it's a bit fuzzy. Maybe the volunteer reviewers have more detailed guidelines from Groundspeak.

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

Because at this moment in time to the best of my knowledge interacting via teleconference systems isn't defined within the geocaching guidelines as an acceptable method of attending a geocaching event.

What if the teleconference stations are listed as additional waypoints for "the locations of event activities"?

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

Unless of course you can tell me otherwise and convince me that those two types of experience are so alike that nobody could tell them apart?

This is a strawman. I never said the two experiences are so alike that nobody could tell them apart.

But I have used teleconference systems to interact with people in a variety of professional and personal situations. No, it isn't absolutely identical to interacting face-to-face. But it's a way of interacting and even socializing with others. I don't see why geocaching events that are focused on "the social aspect of geocaching" can't involve the use of teleconference systems too.

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8 minutes ago, niraD said:
1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

Unless of course you can tell me otherwise and convince me that those two types of experience are so alike that nobody could tell them apart?

This is a strawman. I never said the two experiences are so alike that nobody could tell them apart.

Call it whatever you like.

I stated that the two things were different and for some strange reason I can't fathom you asked why - as if it wasn't obvious - so I told you why.

So, after several completely unnecessary exchanges we finally agree that they are different.

13 minutes ago, niraD said:

I don't see why geocaching events that are focused on "the social aspect of geocaching" can't involve the use of teleconference systems too.

I don't see why geocaching events can't move just like they used to - but that's the way TPTB seem to want it.

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1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

So, after several completely unnecessary exchanges we finally agree that they are different.

Sure, they're different. I still don't think they're "two completely different things" to the degree that teleconferencing is completely incompatible with the fundamental nature of geocaching events.

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

I don't see why geocaching events can't move just like they used to - but that's the way TPTB seem to want it.

Yeah, I've participated in and organized events that don't stay in one place. I think the prohibition on geocaching events that move is silly too.

But somewhere there's another thread for that discussion. This one is is for the idea of events that can be attended via the internet.

Edited by niraD
reply to both points
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11 minutes ago, niraD said:

Yeah, I've participated in and organized events that don't stay in one place. I think the prohibition on geocaching events that move is silly too.

But somewhere there's another thread for that discussion. This one is is for the idea of events that can be attended via the internet.

There's no reason why we can't discuss both aspects here.

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10 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

There's no reason why we can't discuss both aspects here.

So, Groundspeak's concept of a geocaching event is unnecessarily restrictive. Is there anything else to discuss? ;)

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7 hours ago, Ambrosia said:

Twenty years from  now, geocaching events will be like the meetings in the Kingsman movies, where everyone is wearing virtual reality glasses and sitting around a table to converse, although they are really all around the world. ;)

Sounds like an idea for a GIFF film. :ph34r:

 

Thirty years from now, geocaching events, no matter where they are held on the planet, can be attended by anyone who owns a transporter (matter transfer) system. :P

Just think, beam to an event, stay a few minutes, beam to another, sign the log, then beam to Geowoodstock XLV,,,  all in the same hour.

 

 

 

Hmmm, don't know why i posted the tongue out smiley,, The technology may show up even sooner! ;)

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FYI; This was the response received from Groundspeak when I posed the question to them of the inconsistency between their guidelines as outlined in their response.

 

Quote

Thank you for contacting Geocaching HQ.  We feel that both the guidelines and Help Center are consistent with the message that you need to personally attend an event to post a legitimate attended log. 

Guidelines: "Any Event Cache (including Mega-, Giga- and CITO Events) can be logged online if the geocacher has physically attended the event."

Help Center: "To post an "Attended" log on a geocaching event, you must have been at the coordinates of the event during the designated time period."

This is backed up further by the guidelines for owners to maintain cache listings.   "Delete logs that appear to be false or inappropriate."

We feel that each of the messages is clear enough to stand on its own.  They also support attendees who have legitimately attended an event from getting their log deleted for ALRs like not signing a log book that is not required.

 

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