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Highlands_Guy

Can you log an event if you attend via the Internet?

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I heard this topic being discussed at an event the other day and was interested in peoples thoughts/input.

If I attend an event via Skype, Facetime, Video Messenger etc, is it valid to log it.

What if the event is in another country and one attends via one of these remote video methods. Should one be able to log it and therefore get credit for the country?

Thanks for any input/views.

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I believe that as a rule you should not log an event remotely, but I believe there are exceptions to the rule. 

We have a monthly event around here that I had only missed once in 4 years. I was planning to go (as usual) but ended up in the hospital. I was really upset, and the group decided to allow me to call in, participate in the activity, and log that I had "attended" the event. I was on the phone for an hour, and it really was uplifting for me as I was really bummed I missed it.

Like I said, I don't think this is how it should normally happen. You'll notice I said I missed one over the course of 4 years - it's because I was doing something else that day, and I didn't call that one in. Never even crossed my mind.

Edited by KBLAST
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1 hour ago, Highlands_Guy said:

I heard this topic being discussed at an event the other day and was interested in peoples thoughts/input.

If I attend an event via Skype, Facetime, Video Messenger etc, is it valid to log it.

What if the event is in another country and one attends via one of these remote video methods. Should one be able to log it and therefore get credit for the country?

Thanks for any input/views.

Why would you want to? Getting credit for logging a cache in another country should at least involve setting foot in that country. I never understood the "cooperative caches" where people could get credit for another country by "teaming" up with someone far away. It's a big, amazing and interesting world out there. Go visit it!

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5 hours ago, Michaelcycle said:

Why would you want to? Getting credit for logging a cache in another country should at least involve setting foot in that country. I never understood the "cooperative caches" where people could get credit for another country by "teaming" up with someone far away. It's a big, amazing and interesting world out there. Go visit it!

I have flown to Nairobi, Kenya 4 times but I would never claim credit for visiting the the country because I never left the airport and on 3 of those flights, never even left the plane.  Fortunately it looks like I'll be spending a week there in the beginning of February.  There are several exchange/cooperative caches discussed on the "All Nations" forum.   My impression has been that those that team up with a cacher in the other country still only the log the cache that they found.  

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5 hours ago, boisestate said:

Here is the rule from geocaching.com website:

https://www.geocaching.com/play/guidelines#intro

Logging Event Caches

  • Any Event Cache (including Mega-, Giga- and CITO Events) can be logged online if the geocacher has physically attended the event.
  • Event Cache attendees are not required to sign a logbook.

I am by no means suggesting that one should log an event that was visited virtually, but note what that guideline doesn't say.  It does not say that events can't be logged online when the geocacher has not physically attended the event.  

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Some think it's OK, but I can't see any difference between logging an event you didn't attend and logging a virtual* you never actually visited.

 It makes a nonsense of that Groundspeak slogan  "The Language of Location"

Personally, I'd never log any event I'd not physically been at.

 

 

* Or any other kind of cache for that matter.

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Just say no.

Edited by TriciaG
bad logic
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If the both Event Owner and the Event Attendee are happy with it, then I don't see it's anybody else's business.

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Previous discussion on the subject:

A couple of questions you could ask yourself to sort out this moral dilemma:

1. Let's say you run across a list of trackable codes online, but you've never actually come into contact with the trackables.  Would you log them?

2. A new Earthcache/Virtual Reward is Published in a State/Country far away from your home location.  You've visited the location and can easily answer the questions, but your visit was years ago when you were just a child, before geocaching even existed.  Would you send in your answers and log a Find?

3.  You run across a website that posts hundreds of Final coordinates for Puzzle caches.  Even though you don't have a clue on how to even get started on those 5 Star Difficulty Puzzles, would you use this information to find the Finals, sign the logbooks and claim a Find?

These are issues the Community has been wrestling with for many years.  You just have to decide which direction your moral compass points.

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I think Virtual events would be a great new cache type. :) They could even have their own icon. B)

But to make them official they can only be hosted through GS for a small fee of $10 per attendee that posts. :lol:

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The site's guidelines say "Any Event Cache (including Mega-, Giga- and CITO Events) can be logged online if the geocacher has physically attended the event. ".

Asking about "virtual events" shouldn't even be a question, until the site ever announces differently.  :)

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6 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I am by no means suggesting that one should log an event that was visited virtually, but note what that guideline doesn't say.  It does not say that events can't be logged online when the geocacher has not physically attended the event.  

I'm pretty sure it does!

If you're suggesting that the part that says you can log it if you're there DOESN'T say that you can ONLY log it if you're there, then I'd have to disagree. If Mom says you can have ice cream if you finish your peas, I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't agree that there's an implication that you could have ice cream in either case. My Mom wouldn't, anyway.

YMMV (your mother may vary).

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3 hours ago, Touchstone said:

A couple of questions you could ask yourself to sort out this moral dilemma:

1. Let's say you run across a list of trackable codes online, but you've never actually come into contact with the trackables.  Would you log them?

2. A new Earthcache/Virtual Reward is Published in a State/Country far away from your home location.  You've visited the location and can easily answer the questions, but your visit was years ago when you were just a child, before geocaching even existed.  Would you send in your answers and log a Find?

3.  You run across a website that posts hundreds of Final coordinates for Puzzle caches.  Even though you don't have a clue on how to even get started on those 5 Star Difficulty Puzzles, would you use this information to find the Finals, sign the logbooks and claim a Find?

These are issues the Community has been wrestling with for many years.  You just have to decide which direction your moral compass points.

1. NO

2. NO

3. NO

That was easy, wasn't it?

 

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12 hours ago, boisestate said:

Here is the rule from geocaching.com website:

https://www.geocaching.com/play/guidelines#intro

Logging Event Caches

  • Any Event Cache (including Mega-, Giga- and CITO Events) can be logged online if the geocacher has physically attended the event.
  • Event Cache attendees are not required to sign a logbook.

 

Thanks for all the responses.

I think this is pretty clear to me. Virtually attending an event may be a fun thing to do, but it doesn't meet the criteria for logging the event.

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49 minutes ago, Highlands_Guy said:

I think this is pretty clear to me. Virtually attending an event may be a fun thing to do, but it doesn't meet the criteria for logging the event.

 

Exactly correct, and why we need Virtual events as a new cache type with it's own icon. B)

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7 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

If the both Event Owner and the Event Attendee are happy with it, then I don't see it's anybody else's business.

Best response in the thread.

Well, after Touchstone's.

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I live near Highlands_Guy and have heard the same thing. However, it's my understanding that the plan is to set up a laptop at an event here, and for all of the attendees here to "attend" the foreign event. If it was a single person "virtually attending" a foreign event and individually talking with various physical attendees, I could feel better about logging it as "Attended" because it better fulfills the goal of Events to socialize between cachers (similar to KBLAST's situation). However, if it's just a couple of crowded rooms connected over the internet without any meaningful interaction between the attendees (which is my understanding of the upcoming situation), then I feel that crosses over the line.

Either way, I wouldn't log it as Attended myself. IMO, the point is to go to the coordinates (remember, this is geocaching) and socialize with the other cachers who also went to the same coordinates.

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33 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

I live near Highlands_Guy and have heard the same thing. However, it's my understanding that the plan is to set up a laptop at an event here, and for all of the attendees here to "attend" the foreign event. If it was a single person "virtually attending" a foreign event and individually talking with various physical attendees, I could feel better about logging it as "Attended" because it better fulfills the goal of Events to socialize between cachers (similar to KBLAST's situation). However, if it's just a couple of crowded rooms connected over the internet without any meaningful interaction between the attendees (which is my understanding of the upcoming situation), then I feel that crosses over the line.

Either way, I wouldn't log it as Attended myself. IMO, the point is to go to the coordinates (remember, this is geocaching) and socialize with the other cachers who also went to the same coordinates.

To me, that sounds like an event here, and a simultaneous event there. Given the distance between here and there, people would actually attend only one of the events, but attendees at both events would be able to interact with each other via the teleconference link.

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32 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

... it's my understanding that the plan is to set up a laptop at an event here, and for all of the attendees here to "attend" the foreign event. ... if it's just a couple of crowded rooms connected over the internet without any meaningful interaction between the attendees (which is my understanding of the upcoming situation), then I feel that crosses over the line.

Either way, I wouldn't log it as Attended myself. ...

I attended just such an event years ago in the UK, the EO had organised to link with another event at the other end of the country. There was a reasonable interaction between people vying to get into the video chat and interact with the attendees at the other end of the line.

Plenty of people logged both and while I only logged the one I was physically at, I don't have a problem with those who logged both.

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Best response in the thread.

Well, after Touchstone's.

I suppose that if your intentions are to throw common sense out the window and go against an established Groundspeak guideline,,  then yes, you're absolutely right. :huh:

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This could be the thin edge of the wedge with people logging virtually for events in other countries just to gain a souvenir without ever having been there.

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Why did Groundspeak remove the requirement to physically sign in at an event? (I assume they removed it; perhaps it was never a rule/guideline, but now they specifically say that you are not required to sign in.) If I had my druthers, I'd make that as much a requirement as at a physical cache - attended logs by those whose names aren't in the log may be deleted by the event CO.

I suppose, though, there's less incentive for a CO to audit a physical log. Many of 'em probably want as many people to log "attended" as they can, even if they didn't sign in. :ph34r:

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I think the issue of logging a virtual event that I have a hard time with is that it gives you credit for a new geographical area, whether it be a country or county. If one could log the event without geographical credit, I think I would be better with it.

Until that changes, my personal requirement to log an event will be to physically attend it (but each to their own).

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2 hours ago, TriciaG said:

Why did Groundspeak remove the requirement to physically sign in at an event? (I assume they removed it; perhaps it was never a rule/guideline, but now they specifically say that you are not required to sign in.)

I don't know whether it was a requirement that was removed, or a clarification that it never was a requirement. But I recall a discussion here in the forums about events where the logs were placed in difficult-to-access locations, with the intent to force attendees to climb the cliff (or whatever) if they wanted to "get credit" for attending the event. And there was a Groundspeak clarification that attendees cannot be required to participate in any activities to be allowed to post an Attended log. The non-requirement for signing the event log might be related to that.

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6 hours ago, Mudfrog said:

I suppose that if your intentions are to throw common sense out the window and go against an established Groundspeak guideline,,  then yes, you're absolutely right. :huh:

What common sense is being thrown out the window?  If the attendee has no problem with it, and the event owner has no problem with it, and it's not against the guidelines, then really what does it matter to anybody else?

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41 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

What common sense is being thrown out the window?  If the attendee has no problem with it, and the event owner has no problem with it, and it's not against the guidelines, then really what does it matter to anybody else?

Guess you missed above where someone copied and pasted one of Groundspeak's event attendance guidelines.

Quote

Any Event Cache (including Mega-, Giga- and CITO Events) can be logged online if the geocacher has physically attended the event.

Seems straightforward and i don't see any way that someone could misinterpret it. My common sense tells me that if i am physically at an event, then i've met the requirement for logging the event. I cannot understand why anyone would think an attended log was in order when they didn't actually attend an event. It's the equivalent of armchair logging but i i'm guessing that since it's for a good cause, upping smiley or souvenir count, it's perfectly fine. :lol:

 

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53 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Guess you missed above

No, I didn't.

Maybe you missed what I said was a great response. Here, I'll quote it again just for you: "If the both Event Owner and the Event Attendee are happy with it, then I don't see it's anybody else's business."

Who cares if you think it's "right" or "wrong". It's irrelevant to you. People were precisely discussing whether instances of logging an Attended on an event without physical attendance might be feasible. Touchstone's comment demonstrated the merit to the position that it's just another one of those 'moral' questions that has no answer.  And MartyBartfast also hit the nail on the head. In my opinion. (disagree with my opinion? All power to ya)

So yes, I didn't "miss" anything, thank you.

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As in real life, ethics seem less and less important.

 

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17 hours ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

I'm pretty sure it does!

If you're suggesting that the part that says you can log it if you're there DOESN'T say that you can ONLY log it if you're there, then I'd have to disagree. If Mom says you can have ice cream if you finish your peas, I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't agree that there's an implication that you could have ice cream in either case. My Mom wouldn't, anyway.

YMMV (your mother may vary).

Events can be logged online if the geocacher has physically attended the event.

Geocachers must physically attend the event before logging it online.

See the difference.  If GS wanted to make physically attending an event a requirement for logging the event online they would have written the guideline the second way a long time ago.  This has been debated since I started reading the forums 10 years ago, yet GS hasn't changed the language to plug up the loophole.  I wonder why?

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, colleda said:

This could be the thin edge of the wedge with people logging virtually for events in other countries just to gain a souvenir without ever having been there.

You can gain a souvenir for any country that has a souvenir by logging a find on any cache or an attended for an event.  Even if you subsequently delete the log the souvenir will remain in your profile.  That does not mean that you *should* post a log for a cache at a physical location that you never visited.  

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3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Events can be logged online if the geocacher has physically attended the event.

Geocachers must physically attend the event before logging it online.

See the difference.  If GS wanted to make physically attending an event a requirement for logging the event online they would have written the guideline the second way a long time ago.  This has been debated since I started reading the forums 10 years ago, yet GS hasn't changed the language to plug up the loophole.  I wonder why?

 

 

 

 

Nope. Wording is different but both the sentences state the same thing,, that logging an event online can be done if a geocacher physically attends the event. "You asked, "I wonder why?".  I'll counter with, why do you think Groundspeak listed the guideline at all if it doesn't matter?

 

Quote

That does not mean that you *should* post a log for a cache at a physical location that you never visited.

An event cache is held at a physical location. In one instance you seem to be saying that it's ok to log if not attended but then here you're saying that it's not really ok. :blink:

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27 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

Nope. Wording is different but both the sentences state the same thing,, that logging an event online can be done if a geocacher physically attends the event. "You asked, "I wonder why?".  I'll counter with, why do you think Groundspeak listed the guideline at all if it doesn't matter?

No they don't state the same thing. If the first sentence said "Events can only be logged...." then they would say the same thing, but it doesn't so they don't.

As for "Why?". The way the wording stands it means that an EO can't deny someone the attended log if they went to the event, so they can't deny a log if for example the attendee didn't buy a raffle ticket, or didn't come dressed as a fairy, or didn't buy a pizza, or didn't sign the logbook, or....

But the way it's worded clearly allows for a virtual  attendee to log as attended, but then allows the EO to delete that log if they don't wish to accept it, however if they do accept it then it is within the wording of the guideline and is nobody else's business.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, TriciaG said:

Why did Groundspeak remove the requirement to physically sign in at an event? (I assume they removed it; perhaps it was never a rule/guideline, but now they specifically say that you are not required to sign in.)

There has never been a requirement to sign a log for an event.  Something I have fun with time-to-time with the organizer.  :)

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3 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

No they don't state the same thing. If the first sentence said "Events can only be logged...." then they would say the same thing, but it doesn't so they don't.

As for "Why?". The way the wording stands it means that an EO can't deny someone the attended log if they went to the event, so they can't deny a log if for example the attendee didn't buy a raffle ticket, or didn't come dressed as a fairy, or didn't buy a pizza, or didn't sign the logbook, or....

But the way it's worded clearly allows for a virtual  attendee to log as attended, but then allows the EO to delete that log if they don't wish to accept it, however if they do accept it then it is within the wording of the guideline and is nobody else's business.

 

 

 

Ain't it weird how differently we each read and interpret this. I have read this one several times, tried hard to change what i think its meaning is, but still come up with the same thing,,, that i need to actually attend an event before i can log it.

At the same time, i do understand what you are saying,  that an event owner cannot deny an online attended log if the person physically attended the event. I didn't think this particular guideline was made to address this but if it was, then it needs to be spelled out better.

No matter and no worries though since i just see this as yet another of the many ways people have come up with to up find and souvenir count. As the Geico guy would say,, Not Surprising.. :P

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20 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:
20 hours ago, Mudfrog said:

Nope. Wording is different but both the sentences state the same thing,, that logging an event online can be done if a geocacher physically attends the event. "You asked, "I wonder why?".  I'll counter with, why do you think Groundspeak listed the guideline at all if it doesn't matter?

No they don't state the same thing. If the first sentence said "Events can only be logged...." then they would say the same thing, but it doesn't so they don't.

As for "Why?". The way the wording stands it means that an EO can't deny someone the attended log if they went to the event, so they can't deny a log if for example the attendee didn't buy a raffle ticket, or didn't come dressed as a fairy, or didn't buy a pizza, or didn't sign the logbook, or....

But the way it's worded clearly allows for a virtual  attendee to log as attended, but then allows the EO to delete that log if they don't wish to accept it, however if they do accept it then it is within the wording of the guideline and is nobody else's business.

 

That answers Mudfrogs questions to me better than I could.  

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This is a remarkable thread. It has both reminded me why Americans provide so much work for lawyers, and also the kind of thread that makes me want to quit geocaching.

Unmerry Christmas to all of those in this thread demonstrating a lack of principles.

Edited by Joshism
just fixing a typo
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2 hours ago, Joshism said:

This is a remarkable thread. It has both reminded me why Americans provide so much work for lawyers, and also the kind of thread that makes me want to quit geocaching.

Unmerry Christmas to all of those in this thread demonstrating a lack of principles.

 

And a blessed Christmas to you as well. :)

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Ot here but,, this is a forum where geocachers come to say howdy, voice their opinions, and sometimes debate. We all have our differences in opinions but there's very seldom a reason to get upset over what we read here. I don't normally go along with the "you play your way, i'll play my way", because i realize i can play ways that negatively affect others. What we're talking about here doesn't affect me or anyone else. There's really no reason to let it get us down.

Little bit late but,, Merry Christmas everyone. Oh and, Happy New Year too!

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1 hour ago, Mudfrog said:

What we're talking about here doesn't affect me or anyone else.

Perhaps not, but it's just one more example (of which there are many) of the lengths that people will go to in order to log a cache that they didn't really "earn".  Do it if you want.  It doesn't affect anyone...but honestly, nobody can really deny it's utterly silly and ridiculous to even consider it. 

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With modern technology, "attending" a meeting has taken on new meaning since geocaching started. I have participated in several company meetings via VoIP or Skype or GoTo Meeting or various other means. I didn't have to physically at the meeting / event site in order to participate in the various agenda points.

 

While I wouldn't advocate for a virtual event, its not that far fetched of an idea. And with virtual reality becoming more mainstream, its just a small jump to having a projected image of yourself at an event.

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8 hours ago, J Grouchy said:

Perhaps not, but it's just one more example (of which there are many) of the lengths that people will go to in order to log a cache that they didn't really "earn".  Do it if you want.  It doesn't affect anyone...but honestly, nobody can really deny it's utterly silly and ridiculous to even consider it. 

Yea, i probably shouldn't have stated the above the way i did since i find the practice silly as well. I feel it's yet another step in the wrong direction. I didn't want it to come out like i was condoning it but at the same time, it's something i can easily steer clear of.

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Quote

With modern technology, "attending" a meeting has taken on new meaning since geocaching started

Let me post the guidelines again:

Attend an event

Find events near you and visit the cache page of the event you’re interested in. Read the event description carefully. You may want to bring geocoins to trade, trash bags to collect garbage (CITO), or some food to share. Post a "Will Attend" log and let the event host know how many people you're bringing.

(bold-Italic inserted by me)

So, if you attend on-line over the net, how do you bring coins or share food?  An Event, in my opinion, is much more than just "attending", it is socializing it is a come together, talk, hear, smell, feel, get and give, many of those actions at an Event you cannot communicate over a cable, it will never be the same.

Those bushiness meetings are based on fixed subjects, on-line to save time and money.  If I go to a meetings, I am there to spend time with other Geocachers, talk about 100 different things and spend money by bringing some drinks and some food.

Happy New Year 2018 to all of us

 

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17 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

You may want to bring geocoins to trade, trash bags to collect garbage (CITO), or some food to share. Post a "Will Attend" log and let the event host know how many people you're bringing.

So "may" indicates it's optional, and a virtual attendee would choose not to. They may also choose to log a Will Attend and let the host know that they will be bringing 0 people.

 

18 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

An Event, in my opinion, is much more than just "attending", it is socializing it is a come together, talk, hear, smell, feel, get and give, many of those actions at an Event you cannot communicate over a cable

I agree, and I've seen some people physically at an event who didn't talk to or interact with anyone  in any way, and I've seen many people who did nothing more than sign the log book and leave; however when I have seen people virtually attend via a skype session they have had a real interaction with the physical attendees because it's something different to the norm and everybody wants to get in on the act.

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If someone can claim they "attended" an event by seeing it on screen or be seen on screen at an event I'd like to claim that I had Obama, Bruce Willis, Glenn Close, Putin, Osama Bin Laden, Madonna, AC/DC and many others in my living room. :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, MartyBartfast said:

however when I have seen people virtually attend via a skype session they have had a real interaction with the physical attendees because it's something different to the norm and everybody wants to get in on the act.

If we continue like this, and everyone is "skyping in" who will be at the cache location to answer the incoming calls?  Do you just install a multi tasking multi answering multi sorting machine to connect all attendees to each other?  

I assume, Aldous Huxley's vision has become true long time ago.

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One of the main points that make Geocaching interesting for me is to get away from the computer and see what's out there.

Yes, you can attend an event virtually and log it as attended, as long as the host is fine with that. It's an utterly stupid thing to do, but well, so is geocaching. If somebody wants to make a computer game out of it, I'm out.

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2 hours ago, Rebore said:

It's an utterly stupid thing to do, but well, so is geocaching. If somebody wants to make a computer game out of it, I'm out.

 

But geocaching is and always has been a game played on a computer. :wacko:

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7 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

I agree, and I've seen some people physically at an event who didn't talk to or interact with anyone  in any way, and I've seen many people who did nothing more than sign the log book and leave; however when I have seen people virtually attend via a skype session they have had a real interaction with the physical attendees because it's something different to the norm and everybody wants to get in on the act.

Yeah, I've especially seen the "drop in and sign the log" attendees at Souvenir-inspired events. Yes, it's silly to attend an event from 12:01 to 12:31 AM at a 24-hour donut shop, but we had a great time and there was much socialization. And just as most of us were wrapping up to head home, a group showed up, signed the log, told us they had done the same at another midnight event about half an hour away, and then left to go continue their "busy day". An online attendee could have gotten a lot more out of the event than the "drop in and sign the log" attendees.

7 hours ago, on4bam said:

If someone can claim they "attended" an event by seeing it on screen or be seen on screen at an event I'd like to claim that I had Obama, Bruce Willis, Glenn Close, Putin, Osama Bin Laden, Madonna, AC/DC and many others in my living room. :ph34r:

Did you actually interact with Obama, Bruce Willis, Glenn Close, Putin, Osama Bin Laden, Madonna, AC/DC and many others in your living room? That's pretty cool that you've been able to have an interactive online event with all those folks.

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Meh...I don't even like Skyping/Facetiming with family.  No way I'd get on a video conference with a bunch of strangers.

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