Nails VS Straps

[+TwistedCube]

Most cachers say that nails in trees are frowned upon. But I recently heard, that depending on the size of the nail, it won't affect the tree. Most assume that straps are better for securing birdhouses. However, I also heard that straps will suffocate the tree and deform it, or not let it grow. 

What is your thoughts on this? Which is better for the cache and the tree? Also, is there a better alternative for securing birdhouses to trees?

[+Manville Possum]

I believe that using 2 nails to attach a 2x4 may be the best option, then attach the birdhouse to the 2x4.

[+kunarion]

52 minutes ago, TwistedCube said:

Most cachers say that nails in trees are frowned upon. But I recently heard, that depending on the size of the nail, it won't affect the tree. Most assume that straps are better for securing birdhouses. However, I also heard that straps will suffocate the tree and deform it, or not let it grow. 

What is your thoughts on this? Which is better for the cache and the tree? Also, is there a better alternative for securing birdhouses to trees?

 

I don't care of you insist that nails are the healthiest thing for trees, I'm not nailing my caches. And yes, it would make them a lot easier to attach, at least for a while. But look at every nailed bird house cache ever, and you see it's loose and falling off. So is it the plan to hammer in more unharmful nails? I'm not going there. All it takes is one land owner to see the nails and complain how nails kill trees, because he knows he's right, and those caches get archived. It's a never-ending battle. Then when the cache is long gone, there are nail holes for generations to come. I'm really leaning towards “no nails in trees”. And I like being able to tell land owners and tree-lovers that I don't nail caches.

So I attach my bird house caches the hard way. I use marine bungee cord (elastic), tightened and secured with zip ties. There's extra bungee cord in case I need to loosen it later. The pictured one is on a pine that grows quickly. The others are on hardwoods that I hope won't require a lot of bungee adjustments. I'm guessing the bungee cords don't deform the tree, but we'll see.

The one in the picture has plastic-coated gardening wire looped over a branch. My two other bird houses are too far below branches, so they use only bungee cord. There are pieces of sturdy plastic foam between the bird houses and the tree bark.

In the very same park where I set up this bird house, the park's land managers used piano wire to hang real bird houses from branches.  They used wood screws to hold little signs identifying trees.  The plastic signs are breaking from the trees as the trunks grow.  I guess the screws will always remain, too rusty now to remove.  Whatever.  I'm not using nails, screws, nor piano wire.  I'm certain there's a better way.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by kunarion

[+kunarion]

30 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

I believe that using 2 nails to attach a 2x4 may be the best option, then attach the birdhouse to the 2x4.

 

I saw that in another Thread.  I'm guessing the 2x4 was added due to the way the roof sits.  Otherwise they'd nail the bird house directly to the tree.  I see this kind of thing most often with community tourism "Geotrails" and officially licensed Geotours.  It sure does look great today.  Wait 3 or 4 years and take another picture.

[+cerberus1]

We access a hide at least once a year, so the ratchet strap doesn't girdle the tree.  That's the design the landowner required.

I coulda attached with pole barn screws, never having to touch it again.

 - But we'd no longer have that maintenance-free hide  after the landowner sees screws.

"My thoughts on this" mean nothing if the landowner bans caching from their areas...

[+TriciaG]

Straps that aren't loosened will dig into the tree (err, the tree will grow around them), so secure them to the tree in such a way that the straps can be loosened, and on your maintenance trips, check the tightness of the strap and loosen it when needed. If you use something that cannot be loosened, check the tightness and replace the strap with a longer one when needed.

[+kunarion]

8 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 - But we'd no longer have that maintenance-free hide  after the landowner sees screws.

"My thoughts on this" mean nothing if the landowner bans caching from their areas...

 

Aye, there's the rub!

Edited November 16, 2017 by kunarion

[+arisoft]

27 minutes ago, kunarion said:

All it takes is one land owner to see the nails and complain how nails kill trees,

Nails will not kill a tree but nails kills the saw blade which makes wood worthless.

[+kunarion]

8 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Nails will not kill a tree

 

OK, get going.  You go explain it to all land owners everywhere.  Then get back with me when they agree with you.  

[+Manville Possum]

18 minutes ago, kunarion said:

 

I saw that in another Thread.  I'm guessing the 2x4 was added due to the way the roof sits.  Otherwise they'd nail the bird house directly to the tree.  I see this kind of thing most often with community tourism "Geotrails" and officially licensed Geotours.  It sure does look great today.  Wait 3 or 4 years and take another picture.

 

It is part of a geotrail. I figured the "it's attached to a 2x4" was for the reviewer note.  They may be a yearly thing, archived to make room again. 

[+jellis]

Even if it doesn't kill the tree it is still vandalism. Especially where the tree is located like in a park. Unless it's your own tree in your yard.

[+justintim1999]

13 hours ago, TwistedCube said:

Most cachers say that nails in trees are frowned upon. But I recently heard, that depending on the size of the nail, it won't affect the tree. Most assume that straps are better for securing birdhouses. However, I also heard that straps will suffocate the tree and deform it, or not let it grow. 

What is your thoughts on this? Which is better for the cache and the tree? Also, is there a better alternative for securing birdhouses to trees?

Will a few small nails permanently damage a tree?   Probably not but the issue is more about perception.  We should all try to be good stewards of nature and geocachers are no exception.  In fact we're under the microscope more than most.  

I have a birdhouse cache which is attached by a rope with a knot on the end that's strung between the "V" of two branches.   Every once and a while I re-adjust the rope to prevent the tree from growing in around it.    You could also tie a large loop over a branch and around the tree so the birdhouse lies flush against the trunk.  

Get creative.  There are many ways to hide caches without driving nails into trees.        

[+L0ne.R]

Quote

Even if it doesn't kill the tree it is still vandalism. 

This ^

and 

Quote

Will a few small nails permanently damage a tree?   Probably not but the issue is more about perception.  We should all try to be good stewards of nature and geocachers are no exception.  In fact we're under the microscope more than most.  

This ^^

[+J Grouchy]

I think a tree can survive a nail or a strap...

But honestly, my advice would be forget the birdhouse.  It's been done to death.

[+barefootjeff]

I can't remember now who said it - it might have been one of our local reviewers - but suscinctly, the golden rule for cache placement should be that, when the CO eventually archives and removes the cache, there should be nothing to show that it was ever there. In other words, it shouldn't make any irreversable change to the environment. On that score alone, hammering a nail into a tree doesn't pass muster.

[+fbingha]

54 minutes ago, J Grouchy said:

I think a tree can survive a nail or a strap...

But honestly, my advice would be forget the birdhouse.  It's been done to death.

 

Come on now, everything has been "done to death" at this point.

When you roll up on a birdhouse, do you really feel some bit of disgust at what you've found? How is finding a small, dry container a bad thing?

Edited November 16, 2017 by fbingha

[+Mudfrog]

I figured i could nip this in the bud with a quote of the guidelines but that didn't pan out.

Quote

Do not harm plants, animals, or environment

Do not harm plant or animal life when you place your cache. Do not place caches in a location that requires or encourages geocachers to harm plant or animal life. In some areas, geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species

Hmmm, nothing about nails themselves. I'd say that if a person is entertaining the thought of nailing a birdhouse to a tree, they need to ask their reviewer first. Personally, i don't have a problem hammering a nail in a tree on my own property. I'd come up with another way of securing if i was on someone else' property..

Btw, i used to work at a sawmill a longgg time ago. I sharpened both 40 foot band saws and 2 foot in diameter circular saw blades. I can definitely attest to the damage a single nail can cause when a saw's teeth hit it..

[+The A-Team]

I added the following to my forum signature after a similar discussion a while back, and it still applies:

"Remember, the Geocaching.com guidelines are as much about how geocaching is perceived as they are about actual physical damage."

Nails may not cause much (if any) actual damage to a tree, but they can cause significant damage to our collective reputation. Use straps or some other attachment method.

Even if nailing is allowed by a land manager, it's probably better that you don't in order to avoid monkey-see, monkey-do occurrences.

[+TwistedCube]

How about a wooden post hammered into the ground? Then nail/glue the birdhouse onto that. I have seen this on occasions.

 

[+arisoft]

10 minutes ago, TwistedCube said:

How about a wooden post hammered into the ground?

For this kind of cache you need a permission.

Quote

 

Do not bury geocaches, either partially or completely. You must not create a hole in the ground to place or find a geocache.

The only exception is if a property owner gives explicit permission to create a hole to place the cache, which you must provide to the reviewer and state on the cache page.

 

 

[+justintim1999]

11 minutes ago, TwistedCube said:

How about a wooden post hammered into the ground? Then nail/glue the birdhouse onto that. I have seen this on occasions.

 

That's definitely an option just be sure to clear it with the land owner or land manager.   I know that many times local and state owned land prohibit the addition of any permanent and temporary structures.   Even though banging a post into the ground seems like a small thing, ask for permission first.   If the post is allowed than nailing to it would be the way to go.

[+TwistedCube]

7 minutes ago, arisoft said:

For this kind of cache you need a permission.

 

I would ask permission for sure. There is a local apple orchard who might let me place a gadget geotrail on their property. It is a public place, no admission, open year-round.

[+justintim1999]

4 hours ago, TwistedCube said:

I would ask permission for sure. There is a local apple orchard who might let me place a gadget geotrail on their property. It is a public place, no admission, open year-round.

Sounds like a great place to cache.  There are a few orchards around my area that support geocaching and for good reason.   Just be careful wording your cache page as not to violate the "No commercial content" guideline and you should be good to go.   

[+NYPaddleCacher]

26 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

5 hours ago, TwistedCube said:

I would ask permission for sure. There is a local apple orchard who might let me place a gadget geotrail on their property. It is a public place, no admission, open year-round.

Sounds like a great place to cache.  There are a few orchards around my area that support geocaching and for good reason.   Just be careful wording your cache page as not to violate the "No commercial content" guideline and you should be good to go.   

I would also suggest specifically mentioning in the cache listing that specific permission was granted from the land owner.  The problem with caches like this is that there is a lot of monkey-see/monkey-do in cache placement.   Even though banging a post into the ground, or attaching a bird house to a tree "in a safe manner" seems like a good idea, someone else may come along, think it's a cool way to place a cache, and decide to hide their own in a similar manner *without* obtaining permission.

The land manager of a park might think it doesn't need any more bird houses (or even something that looks like a bird house) on trees in the park.  It might allow someone that specifically asks for permission to place a "fake" bird house, but they almost certainly wouldn't want any geocacher (or anyone else) putting up a fake bird house anywhere they wish.  That's the management part of land manager.  

[+TwistedCube]

59 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I would also suggest specifically mentioning in the cache listing that specific permission was granted from the land owner.  The problem with caches like this is that there is a lot of monkey-see/monkey-do in cache placement.   Even though banging a post into the ground, or attaching a bird house to a tree "in a safe manner" seems like a good idea, someone else may come along, think it's a cool way to place a cache, and decide to hide their own in a similar manner *without* obtaining permission.

The land manager of a park might think it doesn't need any more bird houses (or even something that looks like a bird house) on trees in the park.  It might allow someone that specifically asks for permission to place a "fake" bird house, but they almost certainly wouldn't want any geocacher (or anyone else) putting up a fake bird house anywhere they wish.  That's the management part of land manager.  

I get what you're saying. I'll add to the cache(s') description in BIG BOLD LETTERS that permission is needed for these type of hides. And add to the reviewer note that it isn't in a commercial business. Luckily, there won't be any need to go into the shop to find one of the caches. 

 

 

 

[+justintim1999]

6 minutes ago, TwistedCube said:

I get what you're saying. I'll add to the cache(s') description in BIG BOLD LETTERS that permission is needed for these type of hides. And add to the reviewer note that it isn't in a commercial business. Luckily, there won't be any need to go into the shop to find one of the caches. 

 

 

 

I'd guess it would be considered a commercial business if they had a farm stand and sold their produce there. That's ok,  just keep the wording on your cache page generic.  You can mention that the cache is located in the orchard I just don't think you can promote the business or encourage anyone to buy anything.   If the cachers, decide to pick up some fresh produce during there visit who's to blame them