Groundspeak Testing More Access in Official App

[+TriciaG]

"we are initiating some regional tests where Basic members residing in Canada and New Zealand can now use the Geocaching® app to access all caches, regardless of difficulty or terrain rating, or cache type (excluding Premium-only caches)."

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2017/11/geocaching-app-testing/

What do you think?

[+NanCycle]

I think I'll make all my caches PMO.  If they go worldwide with this. 

[+Manville Possum]

1 hour ago, NanCycle said:

I think I'll make all my caches PMO.  If they go worldwide with this. 

 

I just changed all of mine back from PMO because we are in a decline. I would like to see the app be free and open for basic members, except PMO caches. 

Right now I'm back to being a basic member, and that app is quite useless to me without being a PM here. I do prefer it over others because of it's features and don't mind paying a membership to use it's full features. 

I think it's a good thing business wise for the company.

 

[+cerberus1]

We lost a couple friends (all were pms) and their hides when things got crazy with the intro free muggle app  (with my other 2/3rds joinin' them soon after).  Most we talked to felt they were taken advantage of.  The caches belonged to them.  We archived most our lower D/T hides because of it too.  Just got tired of replacing caches that were taken by the "weekend n done" kids not bothering to learn the game.  Other than a couple fake finders, our higher D/T hides have been safe. 

"'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

The difference between back when we started and today is we had to invest in the hobby (by purchasing a hand-held GPSr)  just to play.  We wanted  to learn the hobby to get value for that investment.  This was the same with basic as well as premium members.

A free app isn't an investment.  It doesn't require commitment, a willingness to learn, anything other than a few minutes to load....

 

[+Tungstène]

4 hours ago, TriciaG said:

"we are initiating some regional tests where Basic members residing in Canada and New Zealand can now use the Geocaching® app to access all caches, regardless of difficulty or terrain rating, or cache type (excluding Premium-only caches)."

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2017/11/geocaching-app-testing/

What do you think?

That's great. 

[+Mudfrog]

11 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

We lost a couple friends (all were pms) and their hides when things got crazy with the intro free muggle app  (with my other 2/3rds joinin' them soon after).  Most we talked to felt they were taken advantage of.  The caches belonged to them.  We archived most our lower D/T hides because of it too.  Just got tired of replacing caches that were taken by the "weekend n done" kids not bothering to learn the game.  Other than a couple fake finders, our higher D/T hides have been safe. 

"'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

The difference between back when we started and today is we had to invest in the hobby (by purchasing a hand-held GPSr)  just to play.  We wanted  to learn the hobby to get value for that investment.  This was the same with basic as well as premium members.

A free app isn't an investment.  It doesn't require commitment, a willingness to learn, anything other than a few minutes to load....

 

This is exactly the way i see it.

With the free app, it's kinda like "darned if you do, darned if you don't. It's either new people can't see the good stuff and therefore lose interest quickly or,,, new people see everything and mess things up for existing cache owners. Either way, the vast majority of appers probably don't ever try to learn very much about how geocaching works. For now, i lean towards opening up the app to show all caches. Yeah, it would mean more work for us but at least we might see some traffic on our higher difficulty rated caches.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Mudfrog

[+NYPaddleCacher]

17 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

With the free app, it's kinda like "darned if you do, darned if you don't. It's either new people can't see the good stuff and therefore lose interest quickly or,,, new people see everything and mess things up for existing cache owners. Either way, the vast majority of appers probably don't ever try to learn very much about how geocaching works. For now, i lean towards opening up the app to show all caches. Yeah, it would mean more work for us but at least we might see some traffic on our higher difficulty rated caches.

By opening up the app to show all caches, it might tell new users *less* about the game if they don't take the time to learn how it works.  If all geocaches (other than PMO caches) are show, a new user may be less inclined to learn about D/T ratings.  I've thought that limiting the difficulty was useful to avoid frustrating new cachers, but a limit on the Terrain rating was not quite as useful.  A limit of a Difficult of 2 or less, with no limit on the terrain might expose new geocachers to hides that are still "finable" other than park-n-grabs in parking lots.  

[+thebruce0]

27 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

For now, i lean towards opening up the app to show all caches. Yeah, it would mean more work for us but at least we might see some traffic on our higher difficulty rated caches.

Ditto.

If anything, it may lead people to a higher count of published caches that are more intended for newcomers, knowing now the higher risk of maintenance being needed, and owners saving the higher quality ones they'd rather keep for those invested in the pastime as PM only.  We may see an influx of more 'generic' non-PM caches that owners aren't as concerned about losing or being damaged, but still more than if they were limited from view.  It's another factor COs will need to take into consideration, but removing the in-app limitations (which other 3rd party apps don't do, apart from universal API limitations) is, arguably, better for the business... or at least, we'll find out the effect of this experiement very soon...

Edited November 8, 2017 by thebruce0

[+Mudfrog]

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

By opening up the app to show all caches, it might tell new users *less* about the game if they don't take the time to learn how it works.  If all geocaches (other than PMO caches) are show, a new user may be less inclined to learn about D/T ratings.  I've thought that limiting the difficulty was useful to avoid frustrating new cachers, but a limit on the Terrain rating was not quite as useful.  A limit of a Difficult of 2 or less, with no limit on the terrain might expose new geocachers to hides that are still "finable" other than park-n-grabs in parking lots.  

I don't think it matters much. Whether they can see the caches or not, most app users are going to forgo research because they want to start playing right away. If anything, some might actually do a bit of research if they came across a cache that wasn't quite so simple.

[+fuzziebear3]

I think it is good -- it lets new players see that there is more to the game than lamp posts (which they really can't easily figure out anyway).  It brings the app in line with the web page.  It might just make them learn a little more about D/T ratings, and plan a hike and think more of the game.  If you are concerned about a special hide, make it PMO.

I often try to teach my friends a bit about geocaching ... I can say 'there is one right over there, I know',  but then they can't see the one I am trying to show them with their phone.

 

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

 We may see an influx of more 'generic' non-PM caches that owners aren't as concerned about losing or being damaged, but still more than if they were limited from view.  It's another factor COs will need to take into consideration, but removing the in-app limitations (which other 3rd party apps don't do, apart from universal API limitations) is, arguably, better for the business... or at least, we'll find out the effect of this experiement very soon...

I can see that...     I had plans on a couple letterbox hybrids because the amount of new kids with free apps seemed to die down a bit.  Now,  I'll take a wait-n-see posture again.  This area already has enough "generic" hides to keep folks looking for them busy... 

Was surprised when found that the "other" apps didn't have the same limitations as the official one, yet told by a developer in these forums that they do.  So yeah, I can see the site now opening theirs to be in line with their approved app partners simply due to income lost.  I'm just kinda surprised the site allowed those developers  to forgo the limitations that were in the official app in the first place, (in effect) taking revenue away.

[+niraD]

13 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

The difference between back when we started and today is we had to invest in the hobby (by purchasing a hand-held GPSr)  just to play.  We wanted  to learn the hobby to get value for that investment.  This was the same with basic as well as premium members.

A free app isn't an investment.  It doesn't require commitment, a willingness to learn, anything other than a few minutes to load....

Maybe that's the key.

Start with a "training wheels protocol" version that is restricted to traditional caches rated 1.5/1.5 or less.

Then require some sort of investment (but not necessarily premium membership) to unlock other cache types and higher difficulty/terrain. And in addition to the independent investment route to accessing "advanced" caches, it would be nice if there were an easy way for experienced geocachers to take newbies to "advanced" caches, without Groundspeak's app getting in the way too much.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

16 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

I don't think it matters much. Whether they can see the caches or not, most app users are going to forgo research because they want to start playing right away. If anything, some might actually do a bit of research if they came across a cache that wasn't quite so simple.

I am thinking of a few possible scenarios for limiting Difficulty and/or Terrain ratings or no limit at all, and the impression it would leave to someone that was interested enough to download the app and give it a whirl.

Both D/T limited to 2 or less

There is a list of nearby caches, and they new geocacher attempts them, they're easy to find but all close to roads.  Some may be in public parks but many are on guardrails or in parking lots.  Is that the impression that we want to leave for new geocachers.

No limit on D/T

There is a list of nearby caches, and the new geocacher attempts a few.  It might include a few D4 caches that they never find, and get frustrated.  It might include a few higher terrain caches but they might not attempt them if they strike out on the closer high D caches.  

Limit D to 2 or less, no limit on terrain.

The new user searches the app and finds a few caches nearby that are easily found.  There might also be a few that are a mile or so away but involved a hike into the woods, possibly crossing a stream, but they're probably going to find the cache (due to the D limit).  This scenario might suggest that all caches are easy to find, but at least it provides the opportunity to find caches in areas away from city parks and parking lots.

[+cerberus1]

9 minutes ago, fuzziebear3 said:

  If you are concerned about a special hide, make it PMO.

I don't think that's a fix.

Remembered  it was brought up and pooh-poohed away by a Volunteer when the Intro came out, but the site's again mentioning "pm" a lot in that blog.   If I could find that foil hat, I'd say that's just what someone's hoping for. 

[+hzoi]

17 hours ago, TriciaG said:

"we are initiating some regional tests where Basic members residing in Canada and New Zealand can now use the Geocaching® app to access all caches, regardless of difficulty or terrain rating, or cache type (excluding Premium-only caches)."

https://www.geocaching.com/blog/2017/11/geocaching-app-testing/

What do you think?

This will prompt exactly no change in my behavior as a cache owner, at least for now.  Should issues arise, I'll revisit.

[+cerberus1]

57 minutes ago, niraD said:

Maybe that's the key.

Start with a "training wheels protocol" version that is restricted to traditional caches rated 1.5/1.5 or less.

Then require some sort of investment (but not necessarily premium membership) to unlock other cache types and higher difficulty/terrain.

Yep.

The other 2/3rds likes to play games on the phone.  Most her (real) friends are playing against her.  One time she (finally...) learned that games while walking isn't a smart idea when she face-planted on a rail-to-trail, stumbling on the only remaining rail peg still in the ground. 

Anyway ... most her games are free. To go further (get another weapon, gizmo, extra turn, better tank, ...) she needs to cough up maybe a buck.  That "free" game could cost quite a few bucks if she doesn't keep track.   I don't see why the "free" geocaching app can't be similar.  

[+niraD]

9 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Anyway ... most her games are free. To go further (get another weapon, gizmo, extra turn, better tank, ...) she needs to cough up maybe a buck.  That "free" game could cost quite a few bucks if she doesn't keep track.   I don't see why the "free" geocaching app can't be similar.  

I play free online games that have premium add-ons. But usually, those premium add-ons are just a way of buying time. It is usually possible to earn the same in-game bonuses by spending more time playing.

I'm not sure the same model really works for geocaching. A one-day wonder (or a one-weekend wonder) who pays a buck or two or thirty isn't really any different from a one-day wonder (or a one-weekend wonder) who hasn't paid anything.

The kind of investment I'd rather see is an investment in learning how the game works. This is the kind of thing I teach newbies when I take them geocaching. This is the kind of thing I was taught by an experienced geocacher when I was taken geocaching for the first time. This is the kind of thing that is printed on the cache notes ("Congratulations! You found an official geocache!...") or included on the Geocaching 101 page. It isn't rocket surgery, but it isn't always obvious to newbies who hear about a "real-world, outdoor treasure hunting game using GPS-enabled devices".

[+cerberus1]

12 minutes ago, niraD said:

The kind of investment I'd rather see is an investment in learning how the game works. This is the kind of thing I teach newbies when I take them geocaching. This is the kind of thing I was taught by an experienced geocacher when I was taken geocaching for the first time. This is the kind of thing that is printed on the cache notes ("Congratulations! You found an official geocache!...") or included on the Geocaching 101 page. It isn't rocket surgery, but it isn't always obvious to newbies who hear about a "real-world, outdoor treasure hunting game using GPS-enabled devices".

Maybe I'm not getting it, but it sounds as if you're asking that the site invests more in "how the game works".  I think they've more than tried that, and by some still asking the most basic questions here, it appears (to me) geocaching 101, the help center, and nag educational screens aren't working as well as hoped.

We've taught a couple new folks at times as well, and had an experienced cacher play with us a while too. Not too long ago, but completely different times...   

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

Maybe I'm not getting it, but it sounds as if you're asking that the site invests more in "how the game works".

I think the "unlock advanced features" model could work as a way to verify that the user had invested some effort into learning how the game works. There's some of that already in Groundspeak's app. If you open a new cache type, then there's a terse popup explaining how that particular type works, and I think it includes a link for more info.

But maybe it could be the other way around, at least for basic members. If you learn about a new type and pass a simple quiz about that type, then that type of caches could start appearing in the app when you search for nearby caches. And if you learn about more general Geocaching 101 type topics (e.g., replace the container where and how you found it) and pass a simple quiz about those topics, then you could unlock caches with higher difficulty and/or terrain ratings.

[+The A-Team]

If this experiment is being performed without any other changes as far as the onboarding process for new users, then I don't think it will turn out well for cache owners. The barrier to entry is just too low. As the owner of three EarthCaches, I expect I might now receive more "finds" without the accompanying answers, because there's really no requirement that seekers learn how that cache type works before trying to find it. I like niraD's idea of the unlocking of advanced features/types based on answering a quiz. That would force some basic education on the user. TPTB might not like this because it could potentially discourage users from sticking with it, but I'd much rather lose a few potential customers than take advantage of the hard work of COs by allowing uninformed users to run amok.

[+nextlogicalstep]

I do like that cachers won't be forced to pay for premium to be able to access caches in the app, but I wouldn't mind if there were a restriction with a way of getting past it other than paying for premium. For example, perhaps a cacher could be restricted to 1.5 D/T until they've found a set number of caches - 20? 30? 

Of course, if the whole point of the restriction is to force people to pay for premium, well, I wonder how many fewer people would if they weren't forced to.

[+arisoft]

Well, I think that more players could be hooked up if only the most favorited items were shown in the intro app. Does anyone disagree?

[+niraD]

11 hours ago, arisoft said:

Well, I think that more players could be hooked up if only the most favorited items were shown in the intro app. Does anyone disagree?

Well, when I introduce new people to geocaching, I do tend to take them to caches that I know are good caches. Not just low-difficulty ones that are easy for beginners to find, but caches that are good quality. So I do think that new people would get a better impression of geocaching if they were directed to better caches, rather than just to easy caches.

But Favorites points don't always go to caches that are likely to impress new people. A number of my Favorites are definitely not good ones for new people to start with. And I've seen places where the most favorited caches are virtuals and ECs, which can be confusing for new people who have been told that geocaching is "a real-world, outdoor treasure hunting game" where they search for hidden containers.

[+NanCycle]

13 hours ago, arisoft said:

Well, I think that more players could be hooked up if only the most favorited items were shown in the intro app. Does anyone disagree?

I really don't agree with that, because around here people just don't seem to give FPs.  So how would that work?  Raw number of FPs?  Percentage of FPs?  Comparative number of FPs?   

Edited November 11, 2017 by NanCycle
Deleted the part about PMO.

[+arisoft]

40 minutes ago, NanCycle said:

I really don't agree with that, because around here people just don't seem to give FPs.  So how would that work?  Raw number of FPs?  Percentage of FPs?  Comparative number of FPs?   

Number of favorites is the best way. I must agree - the favorite situation in your area seems to be really really bad. But there are, inside ten mile range, a dozen caches which have over 10 favorites.

[+TriciaG]

13 hours ago, arisoft said:

Well, I think that more players could be hooked up if only the most favorited items were shown in the intro app. Does anyone disagree?

I think it'd be a form of false advertising. Someone downloads the app, gets all these wonderful, favourited caches, then coughs up $$ for a premium membership. What do they now get on their app? A bunch more quality, unique, fun caches? No - a bunch of guard rail and light pole caches.

[+arisoft]

7 minutes ago, TriciaG said:

I think it'd be a form of false advertising.

That's how you do business.

[+NanCycle]

8 minutes ago, TriciaG said:

I think it'd be a form of false advertising. Someone downloads the app, gets all these wonderful, favourited caches, then coughs up $$ for a premium membership. What do they now get on their app? A bunch more quality, unique, fun caches? No - a bunch of guard rail and light pole caches.

Good point.

[+thebruce0]

However of existing mechanics, favourite points would be the best bet for having a good chance at highlighting community-rated 'good' caches. Perhaps as a default sort order, or a property to highlight certain caches above a relative threshold (eg, search returns 100 caches, highlight the top 10 favourited nearby caches). Otherwise all you're left with is just the search results, as now. *shrug*

[+barefootguru]

On 09/11/2017 at 6:33 AM, cerberus1 said:

Was surprised when found that the "other" apps didn't have the same limitations as the official one, yet told by a developer in these forums that they do.  So yeah, I can see the site now opening theirs to be in line with their approved app partners simply due to income lost.  I'm just kinda surprised the site allowed those developers  to forgo the limitations that were in the official app in the first place, (in effect) taking revenue away.

Different limitations… 3rd party apps (using the API) can only show the full cache details for three caches per day, unless you’re premium.

[+frinklabs]

 

On 11/11/2017 at 7:08 PM, arisoft said:

That's how you do business.

 

I was a network 'droid for a multimedia content delivery organization.  The widest fastest bandwidth channels were always prioritized for the free preview sites.   The member sites got shuffled to the lower tier connections.