We need this geocache!

[+TeamPintenWippers]

It always bugs me to that there are no geocaches in.......North Korea!

Guess the reason for that is that you are not allowed to participate in this dadgum imperialist game and cant even reach the website!

But come on, wouldnt it be great to have a multicache there from which the start point lies in North Korea but you can solve the first waypoint at home! You just have to project xxxx miles and xxx degrees (shooting a rocket there ) and you arrive in Netherlands for the second waypoint. Or you can choose at the first waypoint to what country you want to shoot a rocket and there are different projection options for every country. A few geocachers would need to get together to maintain their own country's physical location and calculate the projection from the startpoint.

What do you think? Nice idea? Is this allowed by geocaching rules? Shall we just allow it otherwise and go for it!?

[+on4bam]

All for the statistics I guess. There are already enough armchair loggers on other caches in order not to go for this idea.

Since you have cached in 9 countries you might first try to get more new ones where there actually are caches. Even if this silly idea would work, the most logical final coordinates would be as close to the border as possible in South Korea.

 

[+MartyBartfast]

Sounds more like an Unknown than a Multi to me, and an Unknown final has to be within 2 miles of the Icon so it would only work close to the border with the icon in the North and the final in the South or China...

[+TeamPintenWippers]

Read again totally misunderstood....Im actually suggesting that for the final waypoint you have to go out there and log a cache. Just that you can calculate the coordinates at home, nothing to do with "armchair loggers".

 

Where did you see in how many countries we found caches btw? I was just running a first eartchcache per country macro in GSAK and that one already goes to 10

[+on4bam]

7 minutes ago, TeamPintenWippers said:

Read again totally misunderstood....Im actually suggesting that for the final waypoint you have to go out there and log a cache. Just that you can calculate the coordinates at home, nothing to do with "armchair loggers".

 

Where did you see in how many countries we found caches btw? I was just running a first eartchcache per country macro in GSAK and that one already goes to 10

What you suggest will attract armchair loggers Virtual WP1 does not have to be visited and being a "new" country rest assured many will try to log anyway without visiting the final coordinates. Caches in many countries? A cache can only have one final location. The idea is broken from the start.

I  have seen you don't show your stats but there's more than one way to see stuff , anyway, the point was there's enough countries left to find caches in in order not to jump through hoops to "get" N Korea.

[+MartyBartfast]

But this:

 

52 minutes ago, TeamPintenWippers said:

You just have to project xxxx miles and xxx degrees

makes it an Unknown/Puzzle and then the 2 mile restriction kicks in.

 

And it's not clear from the OP that the final box is going to be located in North Korea, if that's your intention then it's a BAD idea - people looking for it could be locked up for life or even executed if they got caught - it ain't gonna happen.

 

[+on4bam]

1 hour ago, TeamPintenWippers said:

You just have to project xxxx miles and xxx degrees

Any idea how much you would or could be off by projecting over a large distance?

[+arisoft]

25 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Any idea how much you would or could be off by projecting over a large distance?

To be a multi-cache you have to visit at the posted coordinates. Some quotes from guidelines:

" The posted coordinates must be for the first stage. "

" If the cache includes a projection, the projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages. "

 

[+Isonzo Karst]

3 hours ago, TeamPintenWippers said:

a multicache there from which the start point lies in North Korea but you can solve the first waypoint at home!

That's a Mystery by definition, hence the listing coords and state/country selected would be within 2 miles (3.2km) of the final. I see that arisoft and others have made the same point. Relevant guideline and help center links: Multicache   At each stage, the geocacher gathers information    Your "first stage" offers no info. It's the basis of a calculation. See the table at bottom of this article. " the projection may be calculated based on the posted coordinates without visiting the location" = Mystery.

[+Rebore]

North Korea sounds like a good idea for a virtual reward. However, you would still have to go there and fulfill the logging requirements. Also, just to be safe, I would thank the great leader for inventing this hobby.

[+hal-an-tow]

"We need this geocache" ? Nope, altho' you  may want it.

It sounds very much as if you are 'bugged' on political grounds, which really isn't a relevant reason for setting a cache.

Quoting the guidelines

" No agendas

Cache pages perceived to promote an agenda or highlight a cause will not be published. Geocaching is a fun, family-friendly game, not a platform for promoting a cause. Agendas are often religious, political, social, or charitable, but aren't limited to these."

[+hal-an-tow]

1 hour ago, Rebore said:

North Korea sounds like a good idea for a virtual reward. However, you would still have to go there and fulfill the logging requirements. Also, just to be safe, I would thank the great leader for inventing this hobby.

Heh, good idea !

If the OP wasn't awarded one,maybe they could visit and hold an event in his honour ... bound to go mega ...

[+TeamPintenWippers]

56 minutes ago, hal-an-tow said:

Heh, good idea !

If the OP wasn't awarded one,maybe they could visit and hold an event in his honour ... bound to go mega ...

oh yes, a mega event! Then we will crush ze imperialist geocachers togezzer!

It's perfectly possible to go on holiday to N korea, I know some people who have done it. (well dont know about USA Im talking Netherlands here) Just blend in and dont go waving american flags or stuff like that

[+hal-an-tow]

Oh dear, did I forget to include the <irony> tag again ?

[+on4bam]

An event in N-Korea, I'd like to see that (from a safe distance) as a gathering of foreigners might attract some interesting looks from local "guides".

 

[+MartyBartfast]

16 minutes ago, on4bam said:

An event in N-Korea, I'd like to see that (from a safe distance) as a gathering of foreigners might attract some interesting looks from local "guides".

 

I believe that holiday events in North Korea have been refused more than once

[+on4bam]

Yup, better safe than sorry. I would have understood the "need" to log a N-Korea cache if the TS would have logged most if not all available countries but there are plenty of "new ones" to log. Besides, why log a country without actually visiting it.

 

[+colleda]

Good luck with getting the land owner's  permission.

[+on4bam]

18 minutes ago, colleda said:

Good luck with getting the land owner's  permission.

Just ask mr Un, he seems a reasonable guy. He might even enjoy getting into geocaching.

[+TeamPintenWippers]

4 hours ago, hal-an-tow said:

Oh dear, did I forget to include the <irony> tag again ?

pfft I think I forgot mine

[+baer2006]

Well, geocachers sometimes have crazy ideas , and in 2015, some friends and I came up with this scheme for a cache in North Korea:

• Obviously, the container can't be in NK. Therefore, it must be a multi. For puzzle caches, the final must be within 2 of the listing coordinates, but there is no such limit for multis. There are multis where the final is several hundred miles from the first stage.
• We wanted to have one or two virtual stages in NK, which can be found trivially even if you have no GPS (like, say, a big monument), and which are de facto immutable. As none of us was ever in NK (or has plans to go there ), the stage(s) would be created using photos on the internet. But that's not against any guideline either.
• Get a few simple numbers from the virtual stages to calculate the final coordinates.
• The final would be near our home (Munich in this case), to facilitate cache placement and maintenance.

We didn't find any guideline which would prevent such a cache design. But before actually creating a cache page, we contacted a reviewer to talk about the idea. The substance of the answer was, that the principle itself is not against any specific guidelines, but NK is a no-go. He said that GS will never publish a cache, where you have to locate anything in NK, or go to a specific location there. The reason is that any GPS-enabled devices are strictly forbidden in NK, and therefore geocaching is impossible "by definition" (even if you wouldn't actually need a GPS to find the spot).

As a side note, we eventually pulled the stunt with a cache on the Solomon Islands, which at that time also had zero caches listed. The reviewer was not amused, the affair went through HQ in Seattle, but in the end the listing was published. Whether it was a great or stupid idea is definitely debatable, but at least the cache was unique among all the 3M+ active caches in the world .

Anyway, back to NK. The reviewer also indicated that it might be possible (although he said he'd definitely double-check this with HQ before publish) to place a puzzle with header coordinates in NK and the final in China or South Korea. In fact, there is a cache in China very close to the NK border (GC3PTMZ), and several caches in South Korea within 2 miles of the NK border, where the border is in the water and there is no DMZ on the south side (e.g. GC28ZWR). So it is definitely possible to place a physical cache within "puzzle distance" from NK. Therefore, if you want to have a cache in North Korea, start looking for a partner in China or South Korea .

 

[Keystone]

Note that the listing guidelines have been updated since the episodes described in baer2006's post.  See, in particular, the posts by arisoft and Isonzo Karst, above.

[+baer2006]

3 hours ago, Keystone said:

Note that the listing guidelines have been updated since the episodes described in baer2006's post.  See, in particular, the posts by arisoft and Isonzo Karst, above.

Yeah, sure. But in our special "super long distance multicache" on the Solomon Islands, you actually needed information from the first stage (and also the other virtual stages, there were four of them) to calculate the final coordinates. While it was possible to get the info from the internet (by finding very specific photos of the monuments in question), this was far from easy. And there is still no written guideline against multicaches, which you can "solve" from your armchair. Actually, quite a lot of multis using virtual stages with questions are easy to solve from home.

While designing this cache and pushing it through the review process was a very interesting experience, I wouldn't do it again. Even if there is still no guideline against it .

[+geodarts]

Well, there was - for a short moment - this cache.   i was not surprised by the eventual fate of it, but I did expect the respected marshal to get the FTF.

[+Isonzo Karst]

4 hours ago, baer2006 said:

As none of us was ever in NK (or has plans to go there ), the stage(s) would be created using photos on the internet. But that's not against any guideline either.....

Even if there is still no guideline against it .

The cache owner must visit the geocache location to get accurate coordinates with a GPS-enabled device.

 

[+Isonzo Karst]

I should have added to my post that if you  design the cache from your computer iit can be solved from  a computer, and it's a Mystery, not a Multi-cache, and the placed state/country should be within 2 miles (3.2km) of the final.

There are many old (and some new) Multi-caches with virtual stages where online research will allow the seeker to skip a stage or stages, but for a cache to be originally listed as a Multi-cache, it should really require a visit to the coords, (at least by CO intent) and the cache owner should have really visited  (solving - sometimes, straight from the cache page, Google street view, or the Waymark on the same coords).

Some Virtual caches ask odd trivia questions (foundry date on manhole cover), not because the answer is interesting, but because you're not going find the answer doing online research, or from online vacation photos.

[+Rebore]

16 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

I believe that holiday events in North Korea have been refused more than once

 

9 hours ago, geodarts said:

Well, there was - for a short moment - this cache.   i was not surprised by the eventual fate of it, but I did expect the respected marshal to get the FTF.

Now I'm curios. Is it possible to hide a cache or organize an event in North Korea (if the guidelines are met, of course) or will it be rejected by TPTB just because of the location and/or political situation?

[+baer2006]

12 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

The cache owner must visit the geocache location to get accurate coordinates with a GPS-enabled device.

Ah, ok. I stand corrected.

But this phrase in the guidelines must be rather new then (i.e., later than early 2016). Otherwise, the reviewer or GS could have easily shot down our idea by quoting it.

Quote

I should have added to my post that if you  design the cache from your computer it can be solved from  a computer

That's correct. That's why we tried to make it as difficult as possible, which was successful to some extent. At least, it was much more difficult than https://coord.info/GC6Z31Q (multi listed in Australia, final in Poland), where it is absolutely trivial to get the final coordinates without visiting the location. And this was published in 2017!

 

[+Isonzo Karst]

 I think this gets to be an issue of what the reviewer and the cache owner each understand about the cache design.  I wouldn't want every old (or new) cache where the virtual questions could maybe be answered by online research to have to be redesigned - nor to charge reviewers with working out whether that's possible. 

I own a number of multi-caches with virtual first stages - at least one of them, could probably skip first stage with enough online work (more than it's worth) - of course, final is very close - and the first stage is most scenic place.

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

18 hours ago, baer2006 said:

So it is definitely possible to place a physical cache within "puzzle distance" from NK. Therefore, if you want to have a cache in North Korea, start looking for a partner in China or South Korea

Even if the published coordinates were in North Korea,  if the final was in China or South Korea, those finding it would only get "credit"  for a find in China or South Korea, not the country of the published coordinates.  

[+baer2006]

3 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Even if the published coordinates were in North Korea,  if the final was in China or South Korea, those finding it would only get "credit"  for a find in China or South Korea, not the country of the published coordinates.  

The country listed for the cache is not automatically generated from the final coordinates. It's up to the cache owner to enter the proper country, and at least here in Europe (with mostly open borders) a cache's country is usually determined by its header coordinates. I.e., there are many puzzles, which are listed in one country, but where the final is in another. E.g., I think all but one of the caches listed for the Vatican City State have their finals in Italy.

Maybe GS would not allow this in the NK/China or NK/SK situation. But that would be another "special rule", and not the application of a general guideline.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

53 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Even if the published coordinates were in North Korea,  if the final was in China or South Korea, those finding it would only get "credit"  for a find in China or South Korea, not the country of the published coordinates.  

The country listed for the cache is not automatically generated from the final coordinates. It's up to the cache owner to enter the proper country, and at least here in Europe (with mostly open borders) a cache's country is usually determined by its header coordinates. I.e., there are many puzzles, which are listed in one country, but where the final is in another. E.g., I think all but one of the caches listed for the Vatican City State have their finals in Italy.

That sounds a bit to me like gaming the site to give credit for finding a cache in a country when the cache itself is not in that country.  To me, the "final" location of the cache is the location of the cache.  I don't get how someone can honestly claim to find a cache in a country if they didn't even step foot in the country. I've solved a few of those puzzles at Vatican City State but fortunately have also found a couple of the traditional caches that were just outside the walls but still within the "country" boundary.  

[+baer2006]

2 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

That sounds a bit to me like gaming the site to give credit for finding a cache in a country when the cache itself is not in that country.  To me, the "final" location of the cache is the location of the cache.  I don't get how someone can honestly claim to find a cache in a country if they didn't even step foot in the country. I've solved a few of those puzzles at Vatican City State but fortunately have also found a couple of the traditional caches that were just outside the walls but still within the "country" boundary.  

You are right, I see it the same way. I didn't say that I think it's a really, say, "honest", way to claim a cache find in a country. I just wanted to explain the status quo regarding caches with header coordinates in one country and final in another.

The easiest way to get an exotic country into your stats, if there is no actual cache to find (or you don't have time) is to host a 30-minute "event" at the local airport while you are arriving, leaving or in transit. Almost certainly nobody except you will be there, but you still claim your smiley. I think this is even more "dishonest" than the "puzzle cache method" (for the latter, you have at least to find a cache). But as I understand, the "event method" is also off limits for NK.

[+on4bam]

3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 To me, the "final" location of the cache is the location of the cache.  I don't get how someone can honestly claim to find a cache in a country if they didn't even step foot in the country.

Totally agree on the second part.

As for the final being most important for deciding on the country, around here the listed coordinates define the country as far as I have seen. Being close to a border we've done a fair amount of caches where crossing borders can happen several times during a multi (we don't even notice going into the Netherlands and back). Listing a cache as being on the other side of the border gives away part of solution of a non-traditional.

 

[+Harry Dolphin]

2 hours ago, on4bam said:

Totally agree on the second part.

As for the final being most important for deciding on the country, around here the listed coordinates define the country as far as I have seen. Being close to a border we've done a fair amount of caches where crossing borders can happen several times during a multi (we don't even notice going into the Netherlands and back). Listing a cache as being on the other side of the border gives away part of solution of a non-traditional.

 

I had several mystery caches that were listed in New York City, where the starting point was, with the finals across the Hudson River in New Jersey.  Most people realized that with the GeoArt, the finals were in NJ.  But there was one where listing it in New Jersey would have completely spoiled the puzzle.  (That one was the one where the puzzle, when you found it was "Due west one mile".)  The starting points were in New York City, so I considered them to be New York caches.  The New York Reviewer asked me to refer them to the New Jersey Reviewer, since she was not aware of requirements in New Jersey.  Of course, these were mystery caches, but my opinion is that the staring point determines which country/state the cache is listed for.

[+colleda]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a NK souvenir.

[+hzoi]

I remember thinking that the North Korean side of the conference table in the Joint Security Area would have been a perfect spot for a virtual cache, since one can be part of a tour originating from either the North or the South.  Now that virtuals are back, all a CO needs is landowner permission... 

[+The A-Team]

 

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 2:38 AM, Rebore said:

Now I'm curios. Is it possible to hide a cache or organize an event in North Korea (if the guidelines are met, of course) or will it be rejected by TPTB just because of the location and/or political situation?

According to the response baer2006 got:

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 0:10 PM, baer2006 said:

We didn't find any guideline which would prevent such a cache design. But before actually creating a cache page, we contacted a reviewer to talk about the idea. The substance of the answer was, that the principle itself is not against any specific guidelines, but NK is a no-go. He said that GS will never publish a cache, where you have to locate anything in NK, or go to a specific location there. The reason is that any GPS-enabled devices are strictly forbidden in NK, and therefore geocaching is impossible "by definition" (even if you wouldn't actually need a GPS to find the spot).

...which makes sense. Geocaching at its core is reliant on GPS usage. No GPS usage, no geocaching.

...but really, do we need to worry about trying to force a cache into North Korea when there are 247 "countries" on this website with caches in them?

[+on4bam]

10 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

Geocaching at its core is reliant on GPS usage. No GPS usage, no geocaching.

Do you really want to revive the geocaching in Cuba discussion?

 

[+baer2006]

36 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Do you really want to revive the geocaching in Cuba discussion?

 

For reasons, which maybe only the Cuban authorities understand , dedicated GPS devices are forbidden there, but smartphones are not.

[+on4bam]

6 hours ago, baer2006 said:

For reasons, which maybe only the Cuban authorities understand , dedicated GPS devices are forbidden there, but smartphones are not.

Are smartphones forbidden in N-Korea then?

 

[+Rebore]

3 hours ago, on4bam said:

Are smartphones forbidden in N-Korea then?

 

Exactly my thoughts. It would be kind of funny if Groundspeak had an agenda not to publish caches in NK.

[+on4bam]

16 minutes ago, Rebore said:

Exactly my thoughts. It would be kind of funny if Groundspeak had an agenda not to publish caches in NK.

Yes, we all know agendas are "VERBOTEN!"

 

[+geodarts]

19 hours ago, on4bam said:

Are smartphones forbidden in N-Korea then?

 

Since at least 2013, you can bring a smartphone, although it can't be used online without a local SIM card that only provides access for either international calls or the domestic version of the web.  

North Koreans can purchase the Jindallae 3, which looks like an iPhone even if the specifications are a bit murky.  

When North Korean Olympians refused to take smartphones as gifts, one journalist pointed to forbidden technologies, such as a gps    The North Korean said they already had better ones.

Although with the current travel ban I (unfortunately) don't have to worry about it, I would be careful about using a smartphone gps offline there.  

The now-archived Forbidden Country cache was said to have a physical container in Kim Il-Sung Square - but what might happen if you searched for it?  I doubt that a Mt. Paektu earthcache would go over well. And even a new virtual might require permission since the whole country is a sensitive area  

Perhaps this is why the Groundspeak wiki states:

"Geocaching with a GPS is not possible in North Korea.

Geocaching activity can't take place inside the DPRK because its not open to all geocachers."

its too bad that the Marshal didn't get hooked on the game when he was in Switzerland but I don't think the timing worked out  

Edited November 1, 2017 by geodarts

[+hzoi]

15 hours ago, geodarts said:

Since at least 2013, you can bring a smartphone, although it can't be used online without a local SIM card that only provides access for either international calls or the domestic version of the web.  

Sure, I'd trust putting in a DPRK SIM card in my phone.  What's the worst that could happen?

[+on4bam]

2 hours ago, hzoi said:

Sure, I'd trust putting in a DPRK SIM card in my phone.  What's the worst that could happen?

N-Koreans spying on you instead of NSA? same difference.

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

16 hours ago, on4bam said:

19 hours ago, hzoi said:

Sure, I'd trust putting in a DPRK SIM card in my phone.  What's the worst that could happen?

N-Koreans spying on you instead of NSA? same difference.

There might be a difference in what each agency does with the information obtained.  As a system administrator for a well known technology company many years ago I had full access to servers with over 750 user accounts and could read anything any of those users put on the servers but I didn't use any of that information for nefarious purposes. I'm pretty sure that if one of our competitors or people from a few other other countries might treat that information in a different manner.  

[+on4bam]

15 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

There might be a difference in what each agency does with the information obtained.

Sure, but as far as trust goes, they are on the same level as far as I'm concerned. (and let's not limit this to these two). I doubt NK customs/immigration would ask for your social media passwords but I'm not going to test that

Anyway, I think that the "need" for this cache is somewhat less now

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

4 hours ago, on4bam said:

Sure, but as far as trust goes, they are on the same level as far as I'm concerned. (and let's not limit this to these two). I doubt NK customs/immigration would ask for your social media passwords but I'm not going to test that

Anyway, I think that the "need" for this cache is somewhat less now

 

I think the "need" for any cache is overrated.  We don't need a cache in every location and we don't need to find every cache.

It's not NK customs/immigration that I'd be concerned about.  It's the government run communications company that would access to all my communications that be problematic.  Although I'm not thrilled that the NSA might be monitoring the communications of US citizens (i.e big brother is listening), putting a koryolink (the NK telecommunications company) would be like having the big brother of my worst enemy monitoring my communications.  The biggest difference is that the DPRK hates the US, and at the end of the day the NSA is trying to protect the USA.

 

[+hzoi]

5 hours ago, on4bam said:

Sure, but as far as trust goes, they are on the same level as far as I'm concerned. . . . I doubt NK customs/immigration would ask for your social media passwords but I'm not going to test that

To you first point, since you don't look like you are past your late 60s, that seems an odd statement for someone whose freedom has been guaranteed by NATO since birth.  One would think you'd be slightly more trusting of a NATO partner than NK.  But I digress.

To your second point, I won't pretend to be a fan of current US border policies, but on the flip side, if one used a NK sim card, or accessed the internet in any other way inside NK, I doubt that NK would bother asking for anything when they know they can just intercept it and exploit it.