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apneli

accepteble task for new virtual

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Guideline says: "The purpose of the required logging task is to show that the geocacher was at the location. Anything other than that should be optional."

As I understand this lines there should be task with proof that geocacher was on the location. Is it acceptable login task like "throw your hat in the air and make a photo of it so the mountain or statue is showed behind" (I made up this logging task!) or let's say "cross your fingers and make a photo so object is visible behind your fingers"?

I have problems with reviewing this new cache. Answer from reviewer is that "throwing a hat in the air" should be optional, cos virtual cache is about visiting location and not about what should someone do at the location. If I want to put some slightly different task as they are listed as example (make a photo of coordinates or find particular word on sign etc.) the cache won't be published.

What is your opinions? Is virtual cache really only about visiting location? Or can you put some task (not additional one) for geocachers to log the find?

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Of course it's about visiting the location. Since photographs can't be mandatory (I had a camera die on me early during a cachingday, so no pictures the rest of the day) best way would be for some specific info that only can be found at GZ by visiting (not on streetview or GE photographs). For instance, find xx at the back of the statue, what letters/numbers can you see".

There's more to proving you where there than a photograph.

 

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7 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Of course it's about visiting the location. Since photographs can't be mandatory (I had a camera die on me early during a cachingday, so no pictures the rest of the day) best way would be for some specific info that only can be found at GZ by visiting (not on streetview or GE photographs). For instance, find xx at the back of the statue, what letters/numbers can you see".

There's more to proving you where there than a photograph.

 

I was thinking about this sort of thing the other day and how requiring a photograph wouldn't work in scenarios such as you describe - camera phail etc.

Problem is though, any piece of information gleaned from the location in order to 'prove' a visit can be passed around to anyone who wants to log the find which, for me, completely undermines the entire concept in the absence of photographic evidence.

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Here's a  link to the guidelines for publication of the 2017 Virts

photo CAN be required, not a photo of cachers face. 

"cross your fingers and make a photo so object is visible behind your fingers"?

That seems okay to me. Helps eliminate random vacation photos. 

Throw hat, no, I'd have to wear a hat, and I'd have to be good enough with a camera to capture it in the air. 

 

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46 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Of course it's about visiting the location.

Every cache type is about visiting the location ;)
 

48 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Since photographs can't be mandatory

You sure about that? Why photographs can't be mandatory? Ok, I can see what are you thinking, but it is similar like you are out of ink in your pen on other cache types... It can happen...

1 hour ago, apneli said:

Or can you put some task (not additional one) for geocachers to log the find?

This is still what I wanna know.

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6 minutes ago, palmetto said:

"cross your fingers and make a photo so object is visible behind your fingers"?

That seems okay to me. Helps eliminate random vacation photos. 

Throw hat, no, I'd have to wear a hat, and I'd have to be good enough with a camera to capture it in the air.

what about drawing in a sand, let's say sun or cloud or fish on a beach and take a photo of it. is that acceptable?

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2 hours ago, apneli said:

what about drawing in a sand, let's say sun or cloud or fish on a beach and take a photo of it. is that acceptable?

That would make a fun photo gallery.

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2 hours ago, apneli said:

what about drawing in a sand, let's say sun or cloud or fish on a beach and take a photo of it. is that acceptable?

Not a reviewer here but i'd think that most reviewers would be ok with this.

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2 hours ago, apneli said:
4 hours ago, apneli said:

Or can you put some task (not additional one) for geocachers to log the find?

This is still what I wanna know.

Some years ago there was a special cache type which were called "challenges". It was supposed to replace the virtual caches with similar tasks you asked - "do something at some place". The public took this cache type very badly and quite quickly they were removed and finally the findings of these caches were also erased from the statistics. This is history, and the headquarters took this unsuccessful experiment obviously heavily.

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3 hours ago, apneli said:

what about drawing in a sand, let's say sun or cloud or fish on a beach and take a photo of it. is that acceptable?

Does it prove they were on the right beach? :) Cute idea, but I'm not sure how it would show that the cacher was at your cache location.

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51 minutes ago, TriciaG said:

Does it prove they were on the right beach? :) Cute idea, but I'm not sure how it would show that the cacher was at your cache location

Unless it's framed to have something unique from the location in the photo. I think that would be the key. Not merely "draw something in the sand and photograph it", but also "...in front of boulder-discussed-in-question-3", eg.

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2 hours ago, arisoft said:

Some years ago there was a special cache type which were called "challenges". It was supposed to replace the virtual caches with similar tasks you asked - "do something at some place". The public took this cache type very badly and quite quickly they were removed and finally the findings of these caches were also erased from the statistics. This is history, and the headquarters took this unsuccessful experiment obviously heavily.

This could be a key to HQ politics. Since I'm quite new in this game I read lines: "The purpose of the required logging task is to show that the geocacher was at the location. Anything other than that should be optional" like that there should be some kind of task. And since I don't wanna put 'ordinary' cache I would like to make something different but still according to the rules. Maybe rules are not so clear about what happened years ago that have influences to HQ politics..?

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12 hours ago, apneli said:

what about drawing in a sand, let's say sun or cloud or fish on a beach and take a photo of it. is that acceptable?

I don't see how making this drawing helps to prove that the finder was there. Since it isn't part of the proof it is an Additional Logging Requirement. You cannot make a mandatory ALR, but it could be a fun optional task in addition to finding the cache. Anytime you tell a finder what to do, feel, or think in addition to signing the log or answering the qualification question for a virtual you're running a strong risk of crossing the guidelines.

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6 hours ago, wimseyguy said:

I don't see how making this drawing helps to prove that the finder was there. Since it isn't part of the proof it is an Additional Logging Requirement. You cannot make a mandatory ALR, but it could be a fun optional task in addition to finding the cache.

It is solvable, let say that there is specific rock or path or pile etc. so it need to be shown (or at least part of it) on photo. Similar like thebruce0 commented. So it can be considered as a proof that geocacher was on the location.

6 hours ago, wimseyguy said:

Anytime you tell a finder what to do, feel, or think in addition to signing the log or answering the qualification question for a virtual you're running a strong risk of crossing the guidelines.

All caches are about what to do, (or) feel and/or think. When we are talking about virtual caches than word task in guidelines is defined with what to do. So there need to be a task so you have to do something.

I think arisoft answered my question.

 

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9 hours ago, apneli said:

All caches are about what to do, (or) feel and/or think.

Link for reference:

https://www.geocaching.com/play/guidelines#solicitation

On 10/12/2017 at 4:14 AM, apneli said:

what about drawing in a sand, let's say sun or cloud or fish on a beach and take a photo of it. is that acceptable?

To expand on wimseguy's post, if you were to require people to draw a swastika in the sand, I'm pretty sure that would cross the proverbial line (also true of religious symbols too, I would assume).  While arisoft's post gives an interesting historical perspective, comparing the old challenges to virtual rewards, there are many instances in the older iteration that would not make the cut in terms of crossing the ALR line.

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On 10/12/2017 at 7:14 AM, apneli said:
On 10/12/2017 at 7:10 AM, palmetto said:

"cross your fingers and make a photo so object is visible behind your fingers"?

That seems okay to me. Helps eliminate random vacation photos. 

Throw hat, no, I'd have to wear a hat, and I'd have to be good enough with a camera to capture it in the air.

what about drawing in a sand, let's say sun or cloud or fish on a beach and take a photo of it. is that acceptable?

If we were talking about a traditional cache,  that is the sort of thing that would be considered an ALR (Alternative Logging Requirement) and is not allowed.

In the case of a new virtual rewards, there is text in the guidelines regarding logging tasks here.

"The purpose of the required logging task is to show that the geocacher was at the location. Anything other than that should be optional."

Virtual cache owners are allowed to ask for a photo of objects (e.g. take a picture of the tallest tree that you can see),  photos of the location or a picture of ones gps at the location, or photos of geocachers at the location (as long as it does not require to show the geocachers face).   In practice, cache owners of many of the old virtual caches allowed finders to take a photo of the location with some sort of proxy object (e.g. a piece of paper with "NYPaddleCacher was here" written on it) rather than the person being in the photo.  Anything beyond that is optional.

In other words, a cache owner can *request* geocachers take a photo of a drawing in the sand, but it can't be a requirement and a CO can't delete found it logs if a geocacher doesn't comply with the request.   The point of a photo is simply to provide evidence that one has visited the location, not to make geocachers jump through hoops.  

 

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16 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

In other words, a cache owner can *request* geocachers take a photo of a drawing in the sand, but it can't be a requirement and a CO can't delete found it logs if a geocacher doesn't comply with the request.   The point of a photo is simply to provide evidence that one has visited the location, not to make geocachers jump through hoops.  

The acceptable tasks list includes examples of photo requirements (not mere requests):

Quote

The purpose of the required logging task is to show that the geocacher was at the location. Anything other than that should be optional.

Acceptable logging tasks:

  • Questions that can only be answered by visiting the location.
  • Tasks for the finder to fulfill at the location (for example, find five statues on the buildings around you and post the picture of the tallest one with your log).
  • Photos of the location or a GPS device/smartphone at the location.
  • Photos of geocacher at the location, as long as a face is not required in the photo.

So, perhaps a photo of the sand drawing at the location wouldn't be allowed (if taken literally, with only the GPS or geocacher (sans face) as allowable proof).  But photos can be required in the new Virtual requirements. That's how that block reads to me.

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49 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

The acceptable tasks list includes examples of photo requirements (not mere requests):

So, perhaps a photo of the sand drawing at the location wouldn't be allowed (if taken literally, with only the GPS or geocacher (sans face) as allowable proof).  But photos can be required in the new Virtual requirements. That's how that block reads to me.

I read it the same way.   The guidelines describe the kinds of photos which can be required.  Anything other than that, such as holding your hands in some specified manner, wearing a hat, drawing something the sand,  or any other kind of photo can only be a request.  A CO can require a photo of the geocacher.  They just can't require that the geocacher do something specific in the photo.

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Somewhat tangential question, but related as it does deal with logging tasks for virtual rewards.

I'm getting emails on all the new virtual rewards via the new project-gc email notification function.  I've noticed that many, particularly the new German ones, require a finder to email an outside email address with specific code words, in order (or even to email an address made up of specific code words in order, like Date1Date2Date3@gmx.de or whatever).  The finder gets a robot email back.  The clear implication is, if you don't get a robot email back, you can't log.

While convenient for the CO, I don't see how this follows the Help Center guidance on virtuals and earthcaches:

Quote

Read the cache page to learn the logging requirements for any EarthCache or Virtual Cache. In most cases you must answer questions to claim the find.  Send your answers by email or Message Center directly to the cache owner [1]. (Note: cache owners cannot require information to be sent through one particular tool.) [2] Once you send your answers, you may log your find online before hearing back from the cache owner [3].

1.  This email isn't being sent directly to the cache owner by geocaching.com email or message center, which are the two approved ways of contacting a CO, but to an external account (in my experience, an unmonitored robot account).

2.  The CO is requiring information to be sent through one particular tool: external email.

3.  The CO is (at least implicitly) requiring that someone receive a robot confirmation email before logging their find.

(I also recall, though I can't find a forum thread discussing it, that use of robot emails like these were specifically not allowed in the past.  I can't recall if that included virtuals or just pertained to earthcaches.)

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2 hours ago, hzoi said:

I also recall, though I can't find a forum thread discussing it, that use of robot emails like these were specifically not allowed in the past.  I can't recall if that included virtuals or just pertained to earthcaches

I remember that some earthcache guideline denied using robot e-mails to check answers. I have seen one earthcache which does not check the answers automatically but replies automatically the correct answers to the user, so he can check them himself.

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26 minutes ago, arisoft said:

I remember that some earthcache guideline denied using robot e-mails to check answers. I have seen one earthcache which does not check the answers automatically but replies automatically the correct answers to the user, so he can check them himself.

Probably not a good idea not to compare Earthcache Guidelines with those governing Virtual Rewards.  Bot autoresponders have not been allowed on Earthcaches for some time now (maybe 2012, but I could be wrong about that).  There's nothing in the Guidelines preventing a cache owner to put a preferential email address on the Listing page.  They are NOT allowed to delete Find log entries based on the method of communicating.  If someone wants to use Profile email accounts or MC, I'm pretty confident Groundspeak would uphold the Find log and reinstate it.

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