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Roundabout traffic / Kreisverkehre

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I still don't understand after reading the entire thread why the need for roundabout art.  Please convince me that, reading with a TOTALLY objective eye, that this new category can fulfill the following:

"Redundant - Could this category be included as a variable in an existing category? For instance, let's say this new category is called "Blue Lighthouses". But, wait! There may already be a "Lighthouses category". Would it make more sense to add a variable for different colors in the "Lighthouses" details?"

Is your art in the roundabout REALLY not a subset of either the abstract, the figurative, the kinetic, or the figurative art categories?  Yes, it's neat that European cities compete to put up the most elaborate art in their roundabouts, BUT is that enough of a reason to make a redundant category?  No, not really.   

Remember, you are going to need to convince not only me BUT a majority of the Waymarking community that this category isn't just a redundant numbers generator - that means one heck of a selling job in your descriptive write-up for peer review.  Good luck!

 

Edited by iconions
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I thought we had discussed this exhaustively several times over the years on the forum, and the consensus was that the roundabout arts are 100% redundant with all the existing art categories, and therefore can all be waymarked there.  

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Can't see myself giving a green light for this proposal.

Although global (I'm sure these are everywhere), not sure of redundancy nor interest! The round-about is onloy there to acomodate traffic flow (at least the ones I drove in). There might be a flower bed of something else inside. The discussion took a turn at what could be found inside, but that is covered in Sculptures, Roadside Attractions, Abstract Art Sculptures, Realistic Objects, etc. If this flies, then Highway medians could be another category.

Sorry - nay here. 

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I disagree, i gave few examples that do not fit in any categories, it could be interested that everybody read again all the discussions and watch all pictures

In France, creations inside a round about, most of times, describe past or present activities of the town, they are really elaborated and interested

And when an idea can fit in multiples categories, that proves her singularity. Not sure to be understood with this sentence....

 

 

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6 hours ago, Alfouine said:

I disagree, i gave few examples that do not fit in any categories, it could be interested that everybody read again all the discussions and watch all pictures

In France, creations inside a round about, most of times, describe past or present activities of the town, they are really elaborated and interested

And when an idea can fit in multiples categories, that proves her singularity. Not sure to be understood with this sentence....

 

 

I agree with Alfounie. I see much potential here. I have seen many roundabouts, mostly in Europe, with unique designs that cannot be waymarked in other categories. For that reason I would vote yea in peer review. This could be one of the more interesting categories out there.

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Attention please dear Forum readers:

 

My Idea 'Roundabout Traffics' is now copy and paste by Mr. Michaelfiles. Hope, he has little more agreements ... :back:

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3 hours ago, *Team Krombaer* said:

Attention please dear Forum readers:

 

My Idea 'Roundabout Traffics' is now copy and paste by Mr. Michaelfiles. Hope, he has little more agreements ... :back:

Hi,
To point out, actually I did not do it on purpose, when I created the group "Public art sculpture at a roundabout" and put a post on the forum that Alfouine pointed out to me that it existed another group:o

Um es deutlich zu machen, ich habe es eigentlich nicht absichtlich gemacht, als ich die Gruppe "Public Art Sculpture at a roundabout" kreiert habe und einen Beitrag im Forum gepostet habe, darauf hat mich dan Alfouine hingewiesen dass ein anderer groupe existierte :o

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On 23/04/2018 at 5:17 AM, Benchmark Blasterz said:

I thought we had discussed this exhaustively several times over the years on the forum, and the consensus was that the roundabout arts are 100% redundant with all the existing art categories, and therefore can all be waymarked there.  

I can understand this, but not agree with this
In Europe it's a spécial catégorie in Art
In French ==> Art giratoire ==> More info here Fondateur de l'art dit "giratoire" ; Unesco ; Le Parisien
In German ==>Kunst im Kreisverkehr ==> More info here Link 1 ; de.Wiki
In Holland ==> Rotondekunst ==> nl.wiki
In Italy ==> LE ROTATORIE DELL’ARTE
In Spain ==> rotondas y el arte ==> arte urbano

I even found that in America there also gave a name ==> ROUNDABOUT ART ==> Roundabout-Art
Why not create a categorie :ph34r:: Roundabout Art :)

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1 hour ago, Michaelfiles said:

I can understand this, but not agree with this
In Europe it's a spécial catégorie in Art
In French ==> Art giratoire ==> More info here Fondateur de l'art dit "giratoire" ; Unesco ; Le Parisien
In German ==>Kunst im Kreisverkehr ==> More info here Link 1 ; de.Wiki
In Holland ==> Rotondekunst ==> nl.wiki
In Italy ==> LE ROTATORIE DELL’ARTE
In Spain ==> rotondas y el arte ==> arte urbano

I even found that in America there also gave a name ==> ROUNDABOUT ART ==> Roundabout-Art
Why not create a categorie :ph34r:: Roundabout Art :)

You don't agree because you are blinded by the shiny gold thing that is a new category, and how absolutely cool it would be to run that category .  The problem is, though, you either can't understand, or won't understand what we are trying to state about your redundant category - just because your art is in a roundabout, it isn't that special when it comes to Waymarking - especially when that art is covered in the four art categories already in place.  This dead horse has turned into hamburger because we have beat on it so much.  I'm sorry to be brutally honest on this.  Like I stated on Sunday...

"I still don't understand after reading the entire thread why the need for roundabout art.  Please convince me that, reading with a TOTALLY objective eye, that this new category can fulfill the following:

"Redundant - Could this category be included as a variable in an existing category? For instance, let's say this new category is called "Blue Lighthouses". But, wait! There may already be a "Lighthouses category". Would it make more sense to add a variable for different colors in the "Lighthouses" details?"

Is your art in the roundabout REALLY not a subset of either the abstract, the figurative, the kinetic, or the figurative art categories?  Yes, it's neat that European cities compete to put up the most elaborate art in their roundabouts, BUT is that enough of a reason to make a redundant category?  No, not really.   

Remember, you are going to need to convince not only me BUT a majority of the Waymarking community that this category isn't just a redundant numbers generator - that means one heck of a selling job in your descriptive write-up for peer review.  Good luck!"

At this point, does it REALLY matter what we are advising you?  I have the feeling you are going to go ahead and submit this to Peer Review and then get upset at the Waymarking community if it gets turned down.  What you have not done, though, is answer my question in bold.  Until you can convince a majority of the Waymarking community that it's not redundant and local, this category will fail again.

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5 hours ago, iconions said:

You don't agree because you are blinded by the shiny gold thing that is a new category, and how absolutely cool it would be to run that category .  The problem is, though, you either can't understand, or won't understand what we are trying to state about your redundant category - just because your art is in a roundabout, it isn't that special when it comes to Waymarking - especially when that art is covered in the four art categories already in place. 

I do not appreciate this kind of reply, we do not share the same point of view but why should we be blinded ?, and why do we not be happy to promote our idea ?, is there only few waymarkers able to promote new idea ? and others only trying to reach the Graal "Manage a category" but too stupid to understand what Waymarking is !!!

Try to figure out if the discussion was in french, the balance of power would be reversed, we could write your arguments are stupid, only because you not able to argue correctly in french...

I gave examples, fishing hut, reproduction of wineyard lodge, castles, ruins, that can not fint in any categories, a miniature (even big miniature) reproduction of a castle cn not fit in "Castles" category, because it's a reproduction  and not in replica, because it's not the same castle.

If i find a static air craft inside a round about, i can publish it, but the question is Why there is a plane inside this round about ? because the town nearby produced aircraft, because the town nearby as an air base, the inventor of this plane was borned in this town.

This is the main interest of Roundabout art, there is always a link between history, economic activities, famous people borned in the town and all art representations inside roundabout all around the town.

When you can put an idea in multiple categories, that mean the completness of the idea. It's like "Wikipedia page" category, 100% redundant, but wikipedia is the link.

In France we have a contest, every year, for the best roundabout, and if the idea "Awarded location" succeed, one day, in peer review, it will be also redundant :P

May be in US you have a lot of round about with nothing inside, but in Europe its an art and really interesting when we travel a lot by car.

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I think it is a GREAT idea. We have a lot of these roundabout sculptures in Denmark. Would love this category to be the next one. 

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I do not see anything having changed since the last try.

There are a lot of great sculptures inside those circles, but they usually can be waymarked already. Don't forget the Realistic Object Sculptures category! It can fill a substantial part of the gap you feel.

The problem with the roundabout idea is that you introduce a category criterion that has not much to do with the object inside and even less with quality.

You will not gain much additional objects and locations that are worth it, but you will attract a lot of mundane and uninteresting submissions, especially from all those areas that do not have this tradition of roundabout art, because the local folks there want the icon, too, what I can understand but do not want to support.

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8 hours ago, Alfouine said:

I do not appreciate this kind of reply, we do not share the same point of view but why should we be blinded ?, and why do we not be happy to promote our idea ?, is there only few waymarkers able to promote new idea ? and others only trying to reach the Graal "Manage a category" but too stupid to understand what Waymarking is !!!

Try to figure out if the discussion was in french, the balance of power would be reversed, we could write your arguments are stupid, only because you not able to argue correctly in french...

I gave examples, fishing hut, reproduction of wineyard lodge, castles, ruins, that can not fint in any categories, a miniature (even big miniature) reproduction of a castle cn not fit in "Castles" category, because it's a reproduction  and not in replica, because it's not the same castle.

If i find a static air craft inside a round about, i can publish it, but the question is Why there is a plane inside this round about ? because the town nearby produced aircraft, because the town nearby as an air base, the inventor of this plane was borned in this town.

This is the main interest of Roundabout art, there is always a link between history, economic activities, famous people borned in the town and all art representations inside roundabout all around the town.

When you can put an idea in multiple categories, that mean the completness of the idea. It's like "Wikipedia page" category, 100% redundant, but wikipedia is the link.

In France we have a contest, every year, for the best roundabout, and if the idea "Awarded location" succeed, one day, in peer review, it will be also redundant :P

May be in US you have a lot of round about with nothing inside, but in Europe its an art and really interesting when we travel a lot by car.

I'm sorry you do not appreciate my reply - I understand, that is your right and I respect that.  By the same token, please understand that it is my right to try to convince the Waymarking community WHY this category is totally a redundant effort.  All of those "reproductions" can fit in art categories - Your castle, your fishing hut, your vineyard lodge, all can go into realistic art objects.  Again, like in another posting thread, the poster looked at my post, got upset at what I said and didn't actually READ what I said with an unbiased eye.  I am REALLY sympathetic to what you are saying and trying to do, I really am.  I'm just saying that what you are trying to do is just a subset of another set of groups, and is exactly against what I quoted during peer review.  Could it be that the lack of appreciation to my reply is that there is a kernal of truth to what I am saying?  

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14 hours ago, iconions said:

You don't agree because you are blinded by the shiny gold thing that is a new category, and how absolutely cool it would be to run that category....

First off all I am not blinded for absolutely create this catégorie, The proof is that I try to respect the "conveniences"(Not like the last 2 PeerReview). Create a group, submit the idea (which here meaculpa had already been created by *Team Krombaer*) in the forum
Concerning "Redundant", I can agree with YOUR point of view if Redundant means "in excess" but if you mean "superfluous" than No, clarification please 
But I also believe (my impression) that you do not understand that for 10 years in Europe "Roundabout Arts" has become an entire Artistic movement just like Abstract, Figuratif, Invander art ...and much more. 
You can see all this information in all the links of my previous post, But i am sorry there not in English:o

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Eigentlich ist es schade, daß bei Waymarking besonders Grabplatten und anre 'Memorials' hier so oft vorkommen, daß es einen Langweilt. Frage mich wie eventuelle Neueinsteiger mit diesem 'Täglichen Totensonntag' animiert werden sollten, etwas für´s Image des Waymarking insgesamt und in der Zukunft zurechtkommen sollen.

 

Vorschlag von mir: Eine Waymark Championslegue mit Auf und Absteigern nach einem Jahr.

Beispiel: Rein und hoch: Subject in roundabout traffics

              Raus: Texas historical markers.

 

[EN]

In fact, it is a pity that Waymarking's tombs and other 'memorials' are so common here that they are bored. Ask myself how any newcomers should be animated with this 'Daily Dead Sunday', something for the image of Waymarking overall and in the future to cope.

Proposal of mine: A Waymark Championslegue with ascending and descending after one year ....

Example: Pure and High: Subject in roundabout traffics 

              Out: Texas historical markers.  (Only for one year )

Your *SportBaer*

 

 

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1 hour ago, Michaelfiles said:

First off all I am not blinded for absolutely create this catégorie, The proof is that I try to respect the "conveniences"(Not like the last 2 PeerReview). Create a group, submit the idea (which here meaculpa had already been created by *Team Krombaer*) in the forum
Concerning "Redundant", I can agree with YOUR point of view if Redundant means "in excess" but if you mean "superfluous" than No, clarification please 
But I also believe (my impression) that you do not understand that for 10 years in Europe "Roundabout Arts" has become an entire Artistic movement just like Abstract, Figuratif, Invander art ...and much more. 
You can see all this information in all the links of my previous post, But i am sorry there not in English:o

Thank you for the post.  Redundant means duplicity; it means already in place elsewhere, means unnecessary repetition.  If you take this roundabout art, and place it outside the roundabout, would you be able to post it in a Waymarking category that is already in place?  Everything I have seen in the pictures would say yes, these waymarks CAN go into existing categories, especially the four established art ones.  This has NOTHING to do with any kind of "movement" Artistic or otherwise happening in Europe, the United States, the Moon, or any other place within this universe or dimension.  This is strictly a Waymarking category determination.  Yes, there are older Waymarking categories that are very redundant with one another, but those have been cracked down upon in recent years by the peer reviewing community.  I hope this clears up my thinking on this, again, I think it's great that Europe is taking the lowly roundabout and rotary and trying to spruce them up.  All I'm saying is that there isn't a need for a separate category. 

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19 hours ago, iconions said:

You don't agree because you are blinded by the shiny gold thing that is a new category, and how absolutely cool it would be to run that category . 

5 hours ago, iconions said:

  I am REALLY sympathetic to what you are saying and trying to do, I really am.

 

There is nothing sympathetic in the first sentence

Edited by Alfouine
I wrote inside the quote

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17 minutes ago, Alfouine said:

There is nothing sympathetic in the first sentence

Bless your heart, I think, obviously, we're done here, since you took the single sentence without the full quote, and then took another quote out of context.  Do whatever you think best.  I've given you my point of view.  You don't agree with the opinion, fine, but, you really should try to answer my original arguments without attacking the author.  Ad hominem attacks do absolutely nothing in advancing your argument for getting this new category approved.  The ad hominem attack just shows that you do not have a better argument for your category than to attack me personally - it's quite sad actually.

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4 minutes ago, iconions said:

Bless your heart, I think, obviously, we're done here, since you took the single sentence without the full quote, and then took another quote out of context.  Do whatever you think best.  I've given you my point of view.  You don't agree with the opinion, fine, but, you really should try to answer my original arguments without attacking the author.  Ad hominem attacks do absolutely nothing in advancing your argument for getting this new category approved.  The ad hominem attack just shows that you do not have a better argument for your category than to attack me personally - it's quite sad actually.

 

Yep. I hope he Googles bless your heart. :D I believe it's a cultural thing, but if it were me I would create the category and run it through peer review. Bless their heart. B)

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I gave all my arguments and i am not able to convice or be understood in english, Désolé...

@iconions, if you do not want agressive reply, do not be agressive, just try, this sentence "You don't agree because you are blinded by the shiny gold thing that is a new category, and how absolutely cool it would be to run that category...." is really agressive and withering, it not just a point of view, but a lack of respect.

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5 hours ago, Alfouine said:

I gave all my arguments and i am not able to convice or be understood in english, Désolé...

@iconions, if you do not want agressive reply, do not be agressive, just try, this sentence "You don't agree because you are blinded by the shiny gold thing that is a new category, and how absolutely cool it would be to run that category...." is really agressive and withering, it not just a point of view, but a lack of respect.

There was nothing wrong with iconions sentence. It is not aggressive and not disrespectful, not at all. I cannot say the same of your reaction.

But you are understood. Your English is not the problem, your arguments are. And your unwillingness to notice or respect the arguments against this category.

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On 2018-04-25 at 0:36 PM, Michaelfiles said:

First off all I am not blinded for absolutely create this catégorie, The proof is that I try to respect the "conveniences"(Not like the last 2 PeerReview). Create a group, submit the idea (which here meaculpa had already been created by *Team Krombaer*) in the forum
Concerning "Redundant", I can agree with YOUR point of view if Redundant means "in excess" but if you mean "superfluous" than No, clarification please 
But I also believe (my impression) that you do not understand that for 10 years in Europe "Roundabout Arts" has become an entire Artistic movement just like Abstract, Figuratif, Invander art ...and much more. 
You can see all this information in all the links of my previous post, But i am sorry there not in English:o

Hey.  Is that a reference to my last proposal (Not like the last 2 Peer Review)? (re: ethnic and language related flags, which I am still waiting for a reply).  Yes, I perhaps sent it at Peer Review prematuraly, but I will live with the results and perhaps rekindle later. This thread is getting nasty and off topic.  If the waymarkers don't have anything new to add, then buckle up and let the proposal run its course.

I also agree that art inside a roundabout can be found in other categories. That said, thios is MY last comment on this proposal.

Jacques

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18 minutes ago, Loonwatcher said:

then buckle up and let the proposal run its course.

Vous êtes insultant,:mad: vous êtes débité car votre Catégorie n'est pas passé ????

Mettez-la en sourdine, surtout que vous ne respectez pas la bien séance (de soumettre à la discussion la création d’une catégorie)
Bien à vous

Auf Wiedersehen,

If you do not understand, translate yourself

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Please stay calm and moderate. As much as we are, have different desires and views, let's not forget that we are a community that tries to share our favorites with others. thank you

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1 hour ago, Michaelfiles said:

Vous êtes insultant,:mad: vous êtes débité car votre Catégorie n'est pas passé ????

Mettez-la en sourdine, surtout que vous ne respectez pas la bien séance (de soumettre à la discussion la création d’une catégorie)
Bien à vous

Auf Wiedersehen,

If you do not understand, translate yourself

Bonjour.  Premièrement, je vous remercie de votre proposition d'une nouvelle catégorie. C'est ce genres d'initiatives qui feront croître le jeu du WM.
Ceci dit, en lisant le fil des conversations, je m'apperçois que les commentaires devenaient de plus en plus personnels et vexatifs.  Mon dernier post était simplement une proposition de rédiger votre proposition et l'envoyer pour un vote à la communauté élargie.  Je ne crois pas que ceux qui ont participé au 'thread' vont se faire convaincre de changer d'opinion, ni la mienne.

En ce qui porte à votre commentaire que je suis débité ... non, du tout. N'ayant pas reçu de nouvelles de GC, je suis toujours en attente, mais j'ai appris comment bien faire les choses la prochaine fois, si prochaine fois il y aura.

Amitiés.

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On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 11:46 PM, Alfouine said:

If i find a static air craft inside a round about, i can publish it, but the question is Why there is a plane inside this round about ? because the town nearby produced aircraft, because the town nearby as an air base, the inventor of this plane was borned in this town.

This is the main interest of Roundabout art, there is always a link between history, economic activities, famous people borned in the town and all art representations inside roundabout all around the town.

The question is not "why there is a plane inside this roundabout?", it's "why is there a plane on display?" If you take that plane out of the roundabout and display it in a park, the intention, link to history, etc. all still exists. The roundabout is irrelevant.

The same could be said for all of the examples that have been posted here: it's some public display that just happens to be located in a roundabout. Move that display out of the roundabout and nothing changes, other than that it isn't "roundabout art" anymore.

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25 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

The question is not "why there is a plane inside this roundabout?", it's "why is there a plane on display?" If you take that plane out of the roundabout and display it in a park, the intention, link to history, etc. all still exists. The roundabout is irrelevant.

The same could be said for all of the examples that have been posted here: it's some public display that just happens to be located in a roundabout. Move that display out of the roundabout and nothing changes, other than that it isn't "roundabout art" anymore.

Bingo!  We have a winner!

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26 minutes ago, The A-Team said:

The question is not "why there is a plane inside this roundabout?", it's "why is there a plane on display?" If you take that plane out of the roundabout and display it in a park, the intention, link to history, etc. all still exists. The roundabout is irrelevant.

The same could be said for all of the examples that have been posted here: it's some public display that just happens to be located in a roundabout. Move that display out of the roundabout and nothing changes, other than that it isn't "roundabout art" anymore.

Thank you to get back to the subject.

You are right, but in France the plane would be inside the roundabout, not outside.

In the 80es, In France, as we are real bad drivers with a lot of accident and deads, and as the number of cars increased, they decided to create thousand of roundabout and ring roads to avoid to go thru cities, but there were empty, sad, dirty and still dangerous, because by night people did not see roundabout, as they could see cars lights and the went thru the roundabout.

So they decided to put creations inside roundabout and they are almost always contextual with town activities or histories, like that when you drive a ring road, you know past activities and history of the town, that explains you the story of the city.

The main issue of this category, as Fi67 mentionned, would be to manage it, all roundabout are not interesting and it would not be interesting to have more declined submissions than approved. Except if we could find the right perimeter

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On 4/27/2018 at 7:14 AM, Alfouine said:

Thank you to get back to the subject.

You are right, but in France the plane would be inside the roundabout, not outside.

In the 80es, In France, as we are real bad drivers with a lot of accident and deads, and as the number of cars increased, they decided to create thousand of roundabout and ring roads to avoid to go thru cities, but there were empty, sad, dirty and still dangerous, because by night people did not see roundabout, as they could see cars lights and the went thru the roundabout.

So they decided to put creations inside roundabout and they are almost always contextual with town activities or histories, like that when you drive a ring road, you know past activities and history of the town, that explains you the story of the city.

The main issue of this category, as Fi67 mentionned, would be to manage it, all roundabout are not interesting and it would not be interesting to have more declined submissions than approved. Except if we could find the right perimeter

Thought I'd test your statement " but in France the plane would be inside the roundabout, not outside". I did a search of the word Static & France which gave me 74 results overall. On the first page there were 9 static aircraft displays & of these planes, only one was in a traffic circle. 

Edited by Tuena
Grammatical error

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I only want to emphasise the link between what is inside the roundabout and the activities or history of the city inside the ring roads.

According to me it's the only interest of this idea, but so far i just convinced myself....

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L'agachon de la Soude, à Marseille

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QrA6bCZKdfaahMue6

Rather than destroying it, they made a roundabout around

An "agachon" (the word is Provençal) is a lookout post

  • for snorkeling with arpon gun
  • for hunting

There ... uh ... it's for hunting but, the countryside has disappeared for a long time and all around, it's houses, buildings

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On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:14 PM, Alfouine said:

You are right, but in France the plane would be inside the roundabout, not outside.

In the 80es, In France, as we are real bad drivers with a lot of accident and deads, and as the number of cars increased, they decided to create thousand of roundabout and ring roads to avoid to go thru cities, but there were empty, sad, dirty and still dangerous, because by night people did not see roundabout, as they could see cars lights and the went thru the roundabout.

So they decided to put creations inside roundabout and they are almost always contextual with town activities or histories, like that when you drive a ring road, you know past activities and history of the town, that explains you the story of the city.

I still don't understand what the roundabout has to do with anything. Unless the roundabout is a fundamental component of the display itself (which I haven't seen in any of the examples so far), then the roundabout has no meaning other than being the location of the display.

If they took these same contextual displays and put them on the side of the road rather than in the middle of a roundabout, would the meaning change? If not, then the roundabout is irrelevant.

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On 28/04/2018 at 8:47 AM, Alfouine said:

I only want to emphasise the link between what is inside the roundabout and the activities or history of the city inside the ring roads.

According to me it's the only interest of this idea, but so far i just convinced myself....

Ok, I quite agree on a project in this direction:rolleyes:
But how could we associate that in a Categorie Name ?
Here 2 example in Belgium
Herstal associate Herstal (B) with 2 old manufactorys of Moto FN & motos Saroléa
In Charleroi (B) Spirou cradle of Spirou editions (comic strip)

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