1.5d so non premiums can participate?

[+pokeycat9]

I am releasing a series of 5 gadget caches. The first one was released and we kept the difficultly at 1.5 so non premium members can play. The FTF gave a great feedback including raising the D to 2.5 and making it a mystery cache. We have modified the Description to say this should take up to 30 min and probably be a 2.5d but we want everyone to see it.

Question: Is it ok to leave the D at 1.5 so all can play? 

GC7CFHK

here is the video

[Keystone]

You are likely referring to "Advanced" caches in the official Geocaching Apps, rather than caches available to Premium Members only.

So long as you don't mark your cache as being available to Premium Members only, any member (basic or premium) can view it on the website and find it with a GPS or smartphone.  Basic members just miss the convenience of opening the cache details in the Official App, if the D or T is above 1.5 stars.

Your local reviewer can help you in defining the distinction between "mystery cache" and "traditional cache with the field puzzle attribute," which can be a challenging choice when it comes to gadget caches.  Local practices vary, and either choice is acceptable.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Keystone

[+noncentric]

As Keystone already mentioned, all Basic Members can still play if a cache is listed with difficulty greater than 1.5 (assuming the cache is not marked as PMO), they just can't do it with the official app. There are other apps they can use, or they can use the website (on a computer or their phone) to get the cache info and then use a map/GPS app to locate it.

 

Please don't fudge difficulty or terrain ratings. They have a meaning and cache seekers should be able to rely on them to accurately reflect the experience they'll get at that  cache.

 

A couple suggestions I'd make based on the cache page and video:  increase the difficulty and change the size from 'large' to 'regular'. It's good that you added the field puzzle attribute to this trad listing.

 

It looks like a great cache and I commend you on the craftiness. I'd like to be able to create gadget caches and to find a safe spot to place them. Congrats!

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by noncentric

[+MartyBartfast]

I think the D and T ratings should genuinely reflect the difficulty & terrain,  I don't think they should be deliberately wrong in order to circumvent the system. However having said that one man's D2.5 is another man's D1.5, so why not leave it to see whether the next few finders think D1.5 is correct or not?

[+CAVinoGal]

Based on the VERY helpful and informative log left by your FTF visitor (if only ALL logs were as complete and helpful!), and my limited experience with gadget caches, and after watching the video, I would definitely up the D rating.  As others have said, it doesn't necessarily make it unavailable to basic members, it's just not available via the official app.  I've seen gadget caches (and others) with D/T higher than 1.5, with logs by basic members.  

4 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

I think the D and T ratings should genuinely reflect the difficulty & terrain,  I don't think they should be deliberately wrong in order to circumvent the system. 

Completely agree with this.  I always look at the ratings, description, and usually a few recent logs, to get a feel for the cache before attempting it.  Keep it as accurate as you can, and this one sounds like it's a challenging one!

[+Manville Possum]

5 hours ago, noncentric said:

Please don't fudge difficulty or terrain ratings.

 

For reasons the OP has already covered, I'm seeing the DT ratings of 1.5 being more common and under-rated to get around the app.  

[+pokeycat9]

Thanks for all the comments.

I now fully understand the difference between basic, premium and advanced.

I am deeply concerned about this cache getting damaged as people try to jimmy their way in if they don't get the hint. Heck, the first finder got in somehow without going through the normal way. I'd rather give more hints than people potentially damaging the gadget. And in order to get finders more info, they have to be able to see the hints (1.5d in mobile).

> I left the difficulty at 1.5 but in the description I stated the time to solve to be around 30m (I tested this with my kids and they gave the front puzzle a 4 out of 10 difficultly). 

> I also added some more info in the hints.

> I deleted some attributes so the puzzle attribute didn't get pushed to the "more" button on mobile use.

Since I have 4 more caches to post, I will try a higher difficult on some and observe the logs.

[+cerberus1]

I don't think it's fair to others to "rig" D/T just for certain cachers, as "Difficultly is set to 1.5 so Basic Members can see all the details and hints." implies.   We used to see some at one time (with the Intro app) raise their D/T just to keep those "weekend and done" free app  kids away.  The D/T should reflect the cache as accurately  as possible. 

If you're already worried about folks accessing the cache in a way not intended, curious why you're so adamant about keeping ratings low.

We've only found two "gadget" caches that weren't damaged in some way, and those were  pmo at the time. 

[+pokeycat9]

3 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

If you're already worried about folks accessing the cache in a way not intended, curious why you're so adamant about keeping ratings low.

We've only found two "gadget" caches that weren't damaged in some way, and those were  pmo at the time. 

Yeah, I have wrestled with this. Since starting caching in my area I have learned what I like and don't like. Specifically, most of the caches in this area (forest preserve ) are hidden in thick thorn bushes loaded with mosquitoes. We (my high school kids and myself) hated it. The other option was lamp post finds, which got very old after the second find. In short, about 80% of the caches we went to look for were a bad experience. I haven't found a gadget cache around here.

Even the 1.5d / 1.5t around here don't get much activity honestly. Maybe 3 logs a year, perhaps 6 if its a lamp post.  I looked at other high quality gadget cache trails around the country and they 20+ a year. So my concern was getting more activity, not less.

In this particular forest preserve (my house is right against it) there is a really nice professionally run campground.   Often, boy scouts are out and about doing cleaning. This Agent009 gadget series is perfect for them. Definitely something I would want my kids hunting for.

----------------

Now, if the gadgets get jimmied so they create a maintenance issue, then I will turn on "premium" checkbox keeping the rif raf out, no question about that. But again, if the jimmy damage is caused by the cache being too difficult, I will just increase the content in the Hints. But people need to see the hints to solve the problem.  Time will tell. Thus the staged release of the other 4 caches. 

This first gadget hide is a test case for this area's human behavior.
 

 

[+niraD]

FWIW, here's another vote for making the difficulty and terrain ratings accurate. The primary purpose of these numbers is for people to get an accurate impression of the overall geocaching experience presented by the cache. Don't break that primary purpose for some secondary reason.

[+L0ne.R]

For reference:

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=97&pgid=82

5.10. Ratings for difficulty and terrain (D/T)

Rating	Difficulty	Terrain
	Effort needed to solve and find the cache and logbook at GZ.	Physical effort needed to arrive at coordinates.
	Easy to find or solve within a few minutes.	The hike is less than 0.5 mile (0.8 km) and wheelchair accessible (attribute required). Most likely paved and flat.
	Easy to find or solve within 10-15 minutes.	The hike is less than 0.5 mile (0.8 km). Most likely flat but may not be wheelchair accessible.
	Relatively easy to find or solve within 30 minutes	The hike is less than 2 miles (3 km) along well-defined paths with no significant elevation change or overgrowth.
	A mild challenge, but relatively easy for an experienced geocacher.	Terrain may have small elevation changes or moderate overgrowth.
	A somewhat challenging puzzle or hiding spot.	The hike may be more than 2 miles (3 km) on varied terrain - too difficult to ride a bike due to elevation changes or significant overgrowth.
	Quite difficult. Be prepared for a mental challenge.	Quite strenuous, extended hike on widely variable terrain.
	Very difficult and may take special knowledge, advanced preparation, or multiple trips.	Very strenuous movement that may include significant distance, overgrowth, swimming, or elevation changes.
	Extremely difficult. Most likely requires special knowledge or skills.	Extremely demanding movement over potentially hazardous terrain.
	The most extreme mental challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, tools, or significant effort to find, solve, or open.	Requires specialized equipment such as scuba gear, a boat, rock climbing gear, or similar.

[+cerberus1]

25 minutes ago, pokeycat9 said:

Now, if the gadgets get jimmied so they create a maintenance issue, then I will turn on "premium" checkbox keeping the rif raf out, no question about that. But again, if the jimmy damage is caused by the cache being too difficult, I will just increase the content in the Hints. But people need to see the hints to solve the problem.  Time will tell. Thus the staged release of the other 4 caches. 

This first gadget hide is a test case for this area's human behavior.

You may have an awakening.       We've seen just as many issues from long-playing premium members, simply in a hurry.

In my area, making the cache a Traditional instead of a mystery would create some issues (for you) , since few here even bother to read the cache page of  1.5  traditionals anymore.  Most associate the D/T with easy, and yours ain't it.  

A book of hints isn't gonna help if no one's reading what they assume is just the average 1.5/1,5 Traditional.

[+*GeoPunx*]

since few here even bother to read the cache page of any cache at all

Fixed it to reflect my local caching environment.

[+TheVoytekBear]

1,5/1,5 limit isn't bad. By the time the a basic member figures out he can see everything using c:geo, he'll gain some experience in handling the caches, stealth and etiquette making less problems for you as the owner.

The only downside I remember from my rookie days whas the misconception that there are so little caches in the area (I didn't use the web site back then, only the official WP 8 app).

 

As for 'tweaking" the D/T rating I've always believed that it should reflect the current state of the cache to give as accureate information as possible. All the D/T matrixes, availibility for basic members and the "points" for challenges are just a side game and shouldn't be considered while creating/updating the listing.

[+niraD]

55 minutes ago, *GeoPunx* said:

Quote

since few here even bother to read the cache page of any cache at all

Fixed it to reflect my local caching environment.

One of the advantages of listing gadget caches as mystery/puzzle caches is that it keeps them off the radar of geocachers who can't be bothered to ever read the cache page.

[+pokeycat9]

Wow. Tons of great experience and advice here. The next release will be "PMO" and have d2.5 mystery.

GC7CGK9

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by pokeycat9

[+Viajero Perdido]

It scrapes, yes.  [In reference to now-scrubbed mention of unauthorized app]

I don't believe the other apps, the approved API partner ones, have the 1.5 limitation either.  It's purely a bit of upsell logic in the house-brand app only.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Viajero Perdido
Clarifying after scrub

[Keystone]

Any discussions of unauthorized applications that do not access the Geocaching.com database through the API should take place in their own social media/ support channels.

It's fine to use the Geocaching Forums to discuss the official Geocaching smartphone applications as well as any authorized Geocaching Live! partner applications.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

4 hours ago, Manville Possum said:

10 hours ago, noncentric said:

Please don't fudge difficulty or terrain ratings.

 

For reasons the OP has already covered, I'm seeing the DT ratings of 1.5 being more common and under-rated to get around the app.

That's unfortunate.  Unlike many PM only caches, it's caches like the OPs that, if rated higher than a, 1.5 might provide an incentive to basic members to become premium members.  

[+geocat_]

3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

That's unfortunate.  Unlike many PM only caches, it's caches like the OPs that, if rated higher than a, 1.5 might provide an incentive to basic members to become premium members.  

Agree.  Dumbing down D or T to allow everyone to see the details is simply lying if you know the D and/or T are actually higher.  NYPC's observation that it could serve as an incentive is spot on (and likely why such limitations are in place).  

[+pokeycat9]

7 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

You may have an awakening.       We've seen just as many issues from long-playing premium members, simply in a hurry.

In my area, making the cache a Traditional instead of a mystery would create some issues (for you) , since few here even bother to read the cache page of  1.5  traditionals anymore.  Most associate the D/T with easy, and yours ain't it.  

A book of hints isn't gonna help if no one's reading what they assume is just the average 1.5/1,5 Traditional.

OK, I just had another private message from another experienced premium cacher who also didn't read the on-line description or the hint. I even changed the hint to make it easily solved. I would imagine that if you got stuck the first thing you do is go to the online hint. I was dead wrong.

So the solution will be to engrave a 6" x 9" plaque with the online description and graphics on it.  It will also say if you get stuck to go on-line for the hint.

So since the description will be on the outside of the cache there is now no reason to not raise the difficultly. Glad I am releasing these over a period of time so I don't have to go back to all the caches.

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by pokeycat9

[+boisestate]

Thanks for posting the video, that cache looks really cool and fun to try. I would be honest with the D/T ratings (probably a Difficulty 3 or 3.5) keeping in mind it will attract cachers that are looking for that type of challenge.  I would be one of those cachers and would plan my time accordingly.

You had mentioned you are concerned about the cache getting damaged as people try to jimmy their way in if they don't get the hint.  If that is how you feel, I would definitely set the cache to premium only,  This won't eliminate all carelessness from cachers but it will definitely help reduce it IMHO. Setting to premium only might even encourage basic members to upgrade so that can try your cache.

 

 

[+hzoi]

You're the cache owner, setting the ratings is your prerogative, and I get that this is a test case.  But artificially lowering difficulty or terrain in an attempt to get a wider audience completely defeats the purpose of the rating in the first place. 

Honest ratings by a CO allow me to plan accordingly.  If I only have fifteen minutes until I have to go pick up my kid from practice, then I know that I'm probably not going to be able to log a D3 field puzzle.  Or if I'm in a suit or dress shoes, I know up front that I should probably save that T4 for another day. 

Would you rate a cache in the middle of the lake that requires a kayak as 1.5 terrain?  If not, why mess with difficulty?

[+kunarion]

3 hours ago, hzoi said:

You're the cache owner, setting the ratings is your prerogative, and I get that this is a test case.  But artificially lowering difficulty or terrain in an attempt to get a wider audience completely defeats the purpose of the rating in the first place. 

Honest ratings by a CO allow me to plan accordingly.  If I only have fifteen minutes until I have to go pick up my kid from practice, then I know that I'm probably not going to be able to log a D3 field puzzle.  Or if I'm in a suit or dress shoes, I know up front that I should probably save that T4 for another day. 

Would you rate a cache in the middle of the lake that requires a kayak as 1.5 terrain?  If not, why mess with difficulty?

+1

If the D/T is low, yet cachers are having trouble with it, such as it unexpectedly NOT being a Park And Grab, they may post logs that would then cause the cache to become "Advanced".  At that point, it's still a D1.5/T1.5, yet not shown in the Official App.  The Official App is basically an ad to subscribe, but also a way to tell if one's phone is even suitable for caching, before putting up any money.  The "free" listed caches therefore must be super easy to find and log.  Some great caches are 1.5/1.5.  But if they're easy for people who by definition don't know what they're doing, the cache may not stay all that great.

Remember, all the caches are still shown on the web site, such as on a smartphone, and unpaid members can still hunt any except "PMO" with the Official App or most any "GPS App" or GPSr.  But part of the point of having a fee is, its "free" services have inconveniences, and you get some benefit from paying.  Almost every "game App" anywhere in an App store is now that way.  The pay structure is different, but they are expensive to produce, expensive to host, and are all paid in some way.  But the Apps without a recurring source of funds from consumers, and the one-time-pay Apps come and go.  Mostly they go.

Edited September 22, 2017 by kunarion