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Different favorite-points for Cache itself and location


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Dear Geocacher,

If you want to give favorite-points to a cache, you do this because of two different reasons. Either, you like the location, where the cache is hidden, or you like the idea of the Cache itself.

The other way round, if you see that a cache has a lot of favorite-points, you don't know, if the Cache is attractive of cause of the landscape etc. or of cause of the disign of the Cache.

That's why I suggest to seperate the favorite-points, so that every cacher has the possibility to distinguish, why he adores a Geocache and relieves us to choose the best caches.

What do you think about this? I am curios about your opinions :)

 

Greetings from Germany, Müllipützchen

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Reading logs before heading out helps...

The many reasons folks place favorites on a cache, that classifying-by-reason thing could be real confusing...

Lately I'm putting FPs on a cache simply because it takes me further than a quarter mile from parking, and I appreciated that.   :)

We see FPs placed on cache  because the person was FTF.  Others, we've seen them placed just because they're friends with that CO.

One near me (now archived...) was merely a guard rail hide that was easy to access.  How is that a "best cache"?

We do look at caches with many FPs, assuming they may be a good place to stop.  Many times, not so much...

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2 hours ago, Müllipützchen said:

If you want to give favorite-points to a cache, you do this because of two different reasons.

I'm pretty sure I've given favorite points to caches for more than just two different reasons. Adding different types of favorite points for all the different reasons people assign them would make the system far too complicated for most people to use effectively.

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2 hours ago, Müllipützchen said:

The other way round, if you see that a cache has a lot of favorite-points, you don't know, if the Cache is attractive of cause of the landscape etc. or of cause of the disign of the Cache.[..]

(markup by me)
Read the description, read the logs and have a look at the gallery. Now you'll know.

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I wonder if a simplified system that ebay or amazon uses might not work well. So for example... when you click to give a favorite point it brings up a small dialog box where you can input a quick optional note like "great location" or "cool container". Then when a potential finder goes to the cache page and clicks the "who favorited this cache" button it shows who favorited it and their quick comment on why they favorited it. The only downside being that it may be redundant since a lot of people either wouldn't leave the optional comment or would just copy paste their log in it and their log probably already says "great location" or "cool container" and once you click the "who favorited this cache" button it does already give a link to the person's log.

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I also wouldn't want to limit the reasons to just two. Off the top of my head, here's a few reasons why we might give a cache a favourite point.

  • Cleverly-hidden container
  • Unusual container
  • Aesthetically nice location
  • Big container
  • Cool puzzle or other means of obtaining the co-ords.
  • Something interesting at the cache location.
  • Just a generally great experience finding the cache
  • Putting a favourite point on the final cache of a series because you enjoyed the series in general

The last one is in italics as we wouldn't do it personally (we tend to award FPs to individual caches on their own merits), but I've seen it happen a lot so added for completeness.

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I usually tell the CO in my log that I'm giving a fav. point, and why.

If people write decent logs, there is no reason for complicating the fav. point system.

A TFTC log with a fav. point added is useless to me. Do me a favor and don't bother doing either.

IMO, all it would do is make it even easier to do crappy logs. (no incentive to write the reason in your log)

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I give FPs for an overall memorable experience, something I can look back on in years to come and say yeah, that was great. This might be a combination of things like an enjoyable hike, a place of great natural beauty, a challenge that pushed me out of my comfort zone or sometimes even a clever container. You should be able to tell from my log why it was memorable.

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Silliest reason I gave a cache a favorite was because of it's name.  "FTF...more later".  I had to LOL when I seen it published.  When I actually found it the cache was just a lamp post cache in a awkward place to grab it but the name was so funny I had to give it a favorite.

  Too many reasons to divide it up but I get the idea.

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17 hours ago, Müllipützchen said:

I suggest to seperate the favorite-points, so that every cacher has the possibility to distinguish, why he adores a Geocache and relieves us to choose the best caches.

What do you think about this? I am curios about your opinions :)

 

11 hours ago, captnemo said:

[...] Use the log to describe the reason for the FP

That's what we've been doing. 

Expanding upon reasons for (types of) FPs can easily evolve into a cache rating system, which has been discussed many times (check archives and/or goggle).

Edited by RufusClupea
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At the top of the cache page, where it says, "# Favorites", there is a drop down menu. Click "View Who Favorited". On that page, you can click, "View Log".

It's a fair amount of clicks, but it takes you right to the logs of the people who favorited the cache, and hopefully they explain why they did so in their log.

I don't know a lot about how programming works. When favorites was just about to come out, I was told about how it was being set up. The first thing that jumped out at me was that I would want to know why someone favorited a cache. So I asked if it was possible to have something (like is discussed in this thread) where a person could put in a short note as to why they favorited the cache. I was told that everything was already set up and it would take a lot of changing the programming to make that happen. But fortunately, the system was set up so that they could easily pop in the link that I mentioned at the beginning of my post that took you directly to the person's log who favorited the cache. I felt like that was a nice compromise.

 

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On 09/09/2017 at 8:25 AM, Müllipützchen said:

Dear Geocacher,

If you want to give favorite-points to a cache, you do this because of two different reasons. Either, you like the location, where the cache is hidden, or you like the idea of the Cache itself.

The other way round, if you see that a cache has a lot of favorite-points, you don't know, if the Cache is attractive of cause of the landscape etc. or of cause of the disign of the Cache.

That's why I suggest to seperate the favorite-points, so that every cacher has the possibility to distinguish, why he adores a Geocache and relieves us to choose the best caches.

What do you think about this? I am curios about your opinions :)

 

Greetings from Germany, Müllipützchen

I give FPs because I enjoyed the entire experience of finding the cache. I use the points to flag the caches that meant the most to me. I do not intend for my points to be helpful or meaningful to others and I don't look at points when selecting a cache to find.

If the points system got gummed up with categories and other complications, I would probably just stop using it.

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I've liked the idea of being able to add a quick ditty about why the point was given, if you want.

Without that, I personally look at favourite points very very vaguely. Because of all the reasons they may have been granted, much of the time completely unrelated to me, caches with few favourite points I weigh much much less than those with many. It's more likely that a cache with 300 points is much more generally enjoyable and higher quality than a cache with 4.

And then I'll jump to the log history and gallery if I'm really curious about what's so good about it :)

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On 9/9/2017 at 8:25 AM, Müllipützchen said:

What do you think about this?

I do not think this is a good idea.  As others have pointed out, if one wishes to give their reason(s) for giving a favorite point, there is a convenient text box located on the logging page for such explanations.

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However the only direct connection between points and their logs is vai the "Who favourited this cache" page, and clicking "View Log". The result is pretty clunky and time consuming, with only the hope that the person explained why they provided a favourite point. For now that's sufficient I suppose, but for the OP's intent of more easily determining why a cache is so favourited, it's not really all that practical.

Edited by thebruce0
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I'm stingy ... I really only give favorite points if the whole experience was great.  From parking to a nice page to a nice container and a great experience.  As a matter of fact, even if the experience was great, but one thing was wrong (no decent parking, for example) then it will not get a favorite point from me.  Could be why I have hundreds of favorite points to give out.

Anyway, no I don't want favorites divided into categories.  A favorite to me already means that it was good in many ways, not just one.

 

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I give FP for the same reasons of the author of the topic. But we should remember that every geocacher gives FP as he/she wants. There is not a rule. Someone gives a FP because the CO is a friend, or because the CO has helped him, for this reason FPs are not always an index of the quality of the cache.

In my opinion there's no need to "separate" the two kinds of FP, because a fp is for the "global experience " of searching for the cache. If you liked the place you liked the experience. If you liked the cache you appreciated the "experience" of finding it because is very creative...

 

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6 hours ago, Joshism said:

Either of which are terrible reasons for anyone to Favorite a cache.

The reality is that people will mark caches as Favorites for reasons that others disagree with. Expecting everyone to mark caches as Favorites for the same reasons is unrealistic.

Edited by niraD
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On 9/16/2017 at 3:12 PM, niraD said:

The reality is that people will mark caches as Favorites for reasons that others disagree with. Expecting everyone to mark caches as Favorites for the same reasons is unrealistic.

I don't expect everyone to Favorite a cache for the same reasons, but I expect them to Favorite a cache for a useful reason.

A scenic location will be appreciated by others who enjoy scenic locations.

A clever container will be appreciated by others who enjoy clever containers.

Heck, the start of a power trail will be appreciated by others who enjoy power trails.

Nobody appreciates your FTF except you.

Johnny Smiles may be a swell guy and his ten caching friends may want to find his caches because he's a swell guy, but nobody else will care if his caches have nothing memorable or remarkable about them.

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1 hour ago, Joshism said:

I don't expect everyone to Favorite a cache for the same reasons, but I expect them to Favorite a cache for a useful reason.

Nowhere in the guidelines are cachers told by what standards FPs are to be awarded.  If someone uses them as a sort of 'bookmark', that's their prerogative (as useless as it is to us, it may be useful to them). So I'd certainly echo your sentiment and statement, but I'd adjust it slightly to read "While I don't expect everyone to award Favourite points for the same reasons, I would hope they would Favourite a cache for a reason more people can find useful."

Edited by thebruce0
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2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Nowhere in the guidelines are cachers told by what standards FPs are to be awarded. ."

It used to say that FPs were a tool to recommend caches.

Now it says:

Quote

 

Geocaching Favorite points are a simple way to track and share the geocaches that you enjoyed the most. Premium members can award Favorite points for

  • Interesting or unusual locations.
  • Cool hiding places.
  • Creative cache container.
  • Challenging Mystery Caches.

 

To me it still insinuates that it's a recommendation tool. But can be interpreted as sharing with others the fact that you were FTF, or like caching with your friend Bob.

Seems useless to me as a sharing tool if half the people use it as a personal bookmark list--especially when there already are private/public bookmark lists. When people were begging for a decade for an FP system they weren't asking for another bookmark list. They were asking for a way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

If there's a way to break the preferred intent of a tool, geocachers will do it.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

Geocaching Favorite points are a simple way to track and share the geocaches that you enjoyed the most.

Although not specifically said by LOne.R (rather the guidelines), this rings true to me.  There are a myriad of ways a cacher can enjoy a cache.  I gave a FP to a cache, not because of the cache, the back story of the cache (which was nicely done), or the location.  I gave it because I met a Mennonite whose family was interred at the cemetery I was caching in and it turns out his family owned the land the church and cemetery were built on, and still own all the land surrounding it.  I got an oral history lesson going back 150 years of the area that I had driven through for over 40 years.  That was why I enjoyed the experience, but without the cache, I wouldn't have had it.  However, I wouldn't use it as a recommendation for visiting this particular cache.  It was on older cemetery but the hide was non-descript and the cemetery, by my standards, was a run of the mill cemetery without many distinguishing features.

I don't think that we need to delineate reasons for awarding the FP as that should, hopefully, be present in the log as to why a cacher awarded a FP, even if it's that they were FTF or they are good friends of the CO.  I still find it beneficial to use FPs (and FP %) as two of many criteria I use to filter caches I'd like to visit.  Generally speaking, I find them to be reliable about 2/3 of the time.

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4 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

Generally speaking, I find them to be reliable about 2/3 of the time.

That sounds about right. At least for larger caches (small, regular, large). And that's if the cache is fairly new. Old FP'd caches are often in rough shape, not as exciting as they were when they got their FPs.

For micros I'd say it's more like 1/20. I've spent far too much time and gas money going for a highly favorited micro, only to find a hollow bolt on a fence or guardrail.

Besides bolts, the other likely high FP micros:

  • a nano in a wad of gum
  • a nano in a golf ball
  • a micro in a plastic toy from the dollar store
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6 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

For micros I'd say it's more like 1/20. I've spent far too much time and gas money going for a highly favorited micro, only to find a hollow bolt on a fence or guardrail.

Besides bolts, the other likely high FP micros:

  • a nano in a wad of gum
  • a nano in a golf ball
  • a micro in a plastic toy from the dollar store

I'm going to disagree with you on the percentage.  For me, micros and FPs probably correlate 1/2 but I usually make sure to read the logs of micro caches that make my list to determine WHY they have FPs.  With micros, I find the FPs to be more about the clever hide (we really don't see many of the types you mention in our area, except for the occasional bolt) than anything else with challenges coming up second.  Some of the micros in my area that have FPs accrue them due to the type of cache they are (night cache, 9/11 tribute, stroll around a particular part of the city, etc...).

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3 hours ago, L0ne.R said:
3 hours ago, coachstahly said:

Generally speaking, I find them to be reliable about 2/3 of the time.

That sounds about right.

Yep. I don't weigh favourite points heavily until there are many many favourite points. That usually indicates a generally higher value cache, even if the FP-find ratio is pretty low (at that point tho there'd be multiple times more finds).  When it's a handful, it more directly depends on who found it, when, and other properties of the cache listing.  There are too factors to consdier when looking at the FP count. It's not, in and of itself, a good indicator of how much you will enjoy a cache.  Take the count lightly.

 

54 minutes ago, narcissa said:

It isn't possible for FPs to be truly useful as a guide.

Yup.  For me, only really useful on a large scale as that's I personally choose to weigh more.  I can't make you use FPs as a way for you to recommend to me that the cache is worthwhile. How would you know? All I know is those FPs were awarded by cachers who may value vastly different things in their caching, and many of which may have been once-off memories completely irrelevant to me. So, agreed. Truly useful? Nope.

Hopefully useful, yes. :)  Oh for an ideal world.

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I've used Favorite Points as a way to identify caches on a short list, which I then reviewed to choose a few target caches. Even then, it helped to compare each cache type separately, looking at multi-caches with a lot of FP separately from letterbox hybrid caches with a lot of FP separately from virtual caches with a lot of FP and so on.

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4 hours ago, narcissa said:

It isn't possible for FPs to be truly useful as a guide. The aspects that make a cache good for me are unique to me. I mark caches with a point when I enjoyed them. They're called favourite points, not "predict what the mainstream likes" points.

I have found FPs to very useful as a guide. In my experience nearly all caches with 10+ Favorites are worth finding even they aren't all caches I would want to award a FP to.

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1 hour ago, Joshism said:

 

I have found FPs to very useful as a guide. In my experience nearly all caches with 10+ Favorites are worth finding even they aren't all caches I would want to award a FP to.

It's nice that your tastes align that way. Mine don't. 10+ points isn't going to point me to what I want and my FPs aren't likely to point to what the mainstream wants. I am not changing the way I assign my points in order to make them useful for others.

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Giving a favorite point to a FTF probably isn't helpful to others but I often really enjoy running out and getting to be the first to find a new cache. I think it was cool it was placed in a spot and time that I was able to be first.  I enjoyed the experience so sometimes I will give them a favorite when I might not have if I had been 10th to find. It still stood out above the average 10 I have found on a fun factor for me.

  Not that I give all FTF's a favorite but I am sure they have a better chance then others.

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14 hours ago, narcissa said:

It isn't possible for FPs to be truly useful as a guide. The aspects that make a cache good for me are unique to me. I mark caches with a point when I enjoyed them. They're called favourite points, not "predict what the mainstream likes" points.

Of course, you may decide to give a FP (or not) to a cache and it may not mean anything to any one geocoacher if they don't appreciate the same things about a cache that you do.  However,  you vote isn't the only one that counts.  Given any two caches with 100 finds by a PM, some are going to choose to give one or the other at FP for whatever their criteria happens to be.   When you count *everyones* vote if cache A has 60 FPs and  cache cache B has 20,   cache A is probably going  to provide a better experience to the maintstream even if the FPs were not all awarded for the same reason.

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On 19/09/2017 at 0:18 AM, WarNinjas said:

Giving a favorite point to a FTF probably isn't helpful to others but I often really enjoy running out and getting to be the first to find a new cache. I think it was cool it was placed in a spot and time that I was able to be first.  I enjoyed the experience so sometimes I will give them a favorite when I might not have if I had been 10th to find. It still stood out above the average 10 I have found on a fun factor for me.

  Not that I give all FTF's a favorite but I am sure they have a better chance then others.

I don't see a problem with this at all. A good portion of my points are awarded to caches simply because I have a happy memory or a great adventure attached to them. Many of them were already archived when I awarded the points.

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On 9/18/2017 at 5:36 AM, Joshism said:

I don't expect everyone to Favorite a cache for the same reasons, but I expect them to Favorite a cache for a useful reason.

A scenic location will be appreciated by others who enjoy scenic locations.

A clever container will be appreciated by others who enjoy clever containers.

Heck, the start of a power trail will be appreciated by others who enjoy power trails.

Nobody appreciates your FTF except you.

Johnny Smiles may be a swell guy and his ten caching friends may want to find his caches because he's a swell guy, but nobody else will care if his caches have nothing memorable or remarkable about them.

It's not like a cache is going to get 20 FPs due to an FTF. It will get one FP for that. Big deal.

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