Are PowerTrails the way Geocaching will evolve?

[K!nder]

I started in 2007 when there was only a bunch of geocaches in Portugal and not that many in the world.

 

Now after 10 years i look to the map and see long and extensive powertrails. So i am thinking if this is the way geocaching will evolve. If this is the vision GS has for the new geocaching.

 

For example in Portugal he have, till now, almost 40% of the caches published this year are in a PowerTrail.

 

I have to admit that i am somehow afraid with this panorama and this evolution, because i prefer to do less geocaches but with high quality. I am not a fan of film caches along a route and stoping every 161 meters.

[+on4bam]

Fortunately there are still high quality caches around. It takes some effort to find them in between all the "run of the mill" caches but they are still there. Also, series of traditionals on the map are not always PTs, We have done several series (up to 25 caches, trads + bonus) with original handcrafted containers where fieldpuzzles had to be solved to get to the logbook. I must admit, most of these high quality series are premium only here.

Having all Belgian caches in GSAK and using macros to get GCVote ratings and calculate % of FPs makes selecting "worthwhile" caches a lot easier than looking at the GC map.

 

[K!nder]

1 hour ago, on4bam said:

Fortunately there are still high quality caches around. It takes some effort to find them in between all the "run of the mill" caches but they are still there. Also, series of traditionals on the map are not always PTs, We have done several series (up to 25 caches, trads + bonus) with original handcrafted containers where fieldpuzzles had to be solved to get to the logbook. I must admit, most of these high quality series are premium only here.

Having all Belgian caches in GSAK and using macros to get GCVote ratings and calculate % of FPs makes selecting "worthwhile" caches a lot easier than looking at the GC map.

 

Yes, i know there is still amazing caches being published. It is not through that point that i was asking but i was focusing more on the developing of the type of geocaching.

 

I am still finding amazing caches but now i spent more time to filtrate them all

[+on4bam]

18 minutes ago, K!nder said:

Yes, i know there is still amazing caches being published. It is not through that point that i was asking but i was focusing more on the developing of the type of geocaching.

I know what you mean but it's not only PTs, it's "easy" trads in general. Since many new cacher enter the hobby via the "official app' with all it's restrictions, what they see are easy LPC/micro behind a tree kind of caches, unaware there's more. As they start to place their own, most keep with what they have seen..

It's been discussed many times, conclusions are also the same.

 

[+Team Microdot]

Best sig line I've seen on here:

Quote

Censoring opinions to make them go away is like a child closing it's eyes and thinking no one can see it anymore.

 

[+DragonsWest]

4 hours ago, K!nder said:

I started in 2007 when there was only a bunch of geocaches in Portugal and not that many in the world.

 

Now after 10 years i look to the map and see long and extensive powertrails. So i am thinking if this is the way geocaching will evolve. If this is the vision GS has for the new geocaching.

 

For example in Portugal he have, till now, almost 40% of the caches published this year are in a PowerTrail.

 

I have to admit that i am somehow afraid with this panorama and this evolution, because i prefer to do less geocaches but with high quality. I am not a fan of film caches along a route and stoping every 161 meters.

I had a brief fling with Geocaching in 2003.  I found about 20 and that pretty much cleared out the area.  They were few and far between.

 

I turned to mountain biking and then road cycling, not caching for over three years.  

A very expensive crash on my Colnago brought the rode cycling to and end and I sought another physical activity to engage in where my injuries would not cause much pain.  I returned to Geocaching in 2008 and was stunned by the proliferation.  I twas nothing like it is now, even then.

 

Somewhere along ti way I gained enlightenment - Geocaching means different things to different people.  The soonest players accept this the sooner we all achieve inner peace (well some measure anyway.)  Power trails are popular.  Ammo boxes are popular.  Trading is popular.  Puzzle solving is popular.  Gravitate to those things you enjoy most and complain not about those you do not pursue.

 

Ommmmmmmm

[+thebruce0]

Evolving towards powertrails? I don't think so much. An increase in long series of caches being published (along with many other hiding styles), definitely.

As an example, in my area we have quite a number of smallish rivers that in most of the non-winter year are quite wadeable in most parts. So now we're having numerous river 'powertrails' of high terrain caches that groups of cachers are quite commonly going for during tubing, canoeing, and kayaking days. In the winter, many people even do chunks by foot on the ice.  It's a whole different kind of experience than a film can every 161m along a worn hiking trail.  It's quite fun and social.

I think as cachers are getting comfortable with this relatively new way of caching, more and more people are striking out on the water for the experience.

I think the same thing happened with tree climbs. And the same thing happened with hiking trails. And the same thing is happening with geoart.

I think some people find a new type of experience, and if it's relatively accessible to the masses, and it's fun, then it'll spread like wildfire. It might fizzle in time, or it might be here to stay.

Either way, I don't think powertrails are going away. But I don't think geocaching is 'evolving' this way as if they'll be a prominent geocaching style. It's really just one of many, many ways to enjoy the hobby

[K!nder]

25 minutes ago, DragonsWest said:

 

  Gravitate to those things you enjoy most and complain not about those you do not pursue.

 

Ommmmmmmm

I am not complaining just asking for your opinion. I don't complain because i still do the type and kind of geocaches i like, the others i just pass-by if it doesn't attract me. Thats why i am doing so few geocaches right now by year

I was just asking to see if it just me that see the proliferation of the PTs or is happening a little bit around the world.

Another thing that i see is the creation of intensive PTs to promote the coming of geocachers to an expected Mega Event.

[+cerberus1]

Similar to on4bam I guess, I don't think "power trails" are an issue as much as poor placement. 

So many want to hide right away these days, and simply place a (worst container here) in between the two nondescript caches they've found, just because that's all they know, and because they can.

Geoart is a perfect example.  We're seeing blobs on maps that might have had something interesting there, but it's been filled in over time by others, just because they were "on the way" and they can.

[+on4bam]

What I noticed "lately" is caches placed by new cachers where, after publication, a few FTF hunters post DNF because "there's nothing there", sometimes followed by a note by the CO that they tried to change the coordinates but couldn't. A simple mistake of entering numbers as DD.MM.mmm when they measured (using smartphone or car GPS) using DD.dddddd. The correct coordinates then are within 161m from another cache and the cache is archived.

Another thing that happens more and more is caches that only remain in place a year or less. First sign of a problem and they get archived. Some have no problems and get archived because "they served their purpose, a new series will soon replace this one".

 

 

[+SeattleWayne]

5 hours ago, K!nder said:

 

Now after 10 years i look to the map and see long and extensive powertrails. So i am thinking if this is the way geocaching will evolve. If this is the vision GS has for the new geocaching.

 

 

I doubt Groundspeak has a vision of power trails being the future for geocaching. 

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Evolving towards powertrails? I don't think so much. An increase in long series of caches being published (along with many other hiding styles), definitely.

I don't suppose that you have any evidence to support the contention that there is an increase in the number of caches that are not part of a long series.  Even if there is an "increase", the number of new caches that are not part of a series relative to the number of caches that are would demonstrate whether or not there is an evolution.  Perhaps evolution isn't the right term though.  I *do* think that since 2009, when GS removed the "don't place a cache every 600' just because you can" language in the guidelines that there is a trend to place caches as part of a series.  

[+thebruce0]

14 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I don't suppose that you have any evidence to support the contention that there is an increase in the number of caches that are not part of a long series.  Even if there is an "increase", the number of new caches that are not part of a series relative to the number of caches that are would demonstrate whether or not there is an evolution.  Perhaps evolution isn't the right term though.  I *do* think that since 2009, when GS removed the "don't place a cache every 600' just because you can" language in the guidelines that there is a trend to place caches as part of a series.  

Nope, no evidence. Just an educated guess pulled out of my butt by the increasing active geocache count and increase of powertrail series. Sure I could be wrong, but I honestly do not believe that there are more (a faster rate of) powertrail caches being published these days than non-powertrail caches.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

10 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

25 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I don't suppose that you have any evidence to support the contention that there is an increase in the number of caches that are not part of a long series.  Even if there is an "increase", the number of new caches that are not part of a series relative to the number of caches that are would demonstrate whether or not there is an evolution.  Perhaps evolution isn't the right term though.  I *do* think that since 2009, when GS removed the "don't place a cache every 600' just because you can" language in the guidelines that there is a trend to place caches as part of a series.  

Nope, no evidence. Just an educated guess pulled out of my butt by the increasing active geocache count and increase of powertrail series. Sure I could be wrong, but I honestly do not believe that there are more (a faster rate of) powertrail caches being published these days than non-powertrail caches.

Without a good filter which would identify caches as part of a series I guess all we can go by is what I see.  I know that within 30 miles of where I live probably 80% of all new hides in the past two years have been placed by one person.  They're all based on some sort of plant/tree at GZ.  She writes some some really comprehensive descriptions of the species on the cache pages, but when you actually look at the caches you'll find that she used pretty much an identical container and hide style for every one of them.  There are a few rail trails the she's completely saturated.  I've got a couple of caches on a 10 mile long trail which was only designated as a rail trail a few years ago and has undergone some significant improvements.  If you look at that trail now, it appears that the CO is starting from each end, finding a spot the minimum distance from the last cache she placed,  identifying a plant/tree at the location and placing a cache.  By saturating the trail she's left no room for any caches that are *not* part of her series.   

That, to me, explains why I believe that the trend towards power tails and a long series of cache is the trend.  When an area is saturated, it's typically from a series of caches and leaves no room for anything else.

 

[+thebruce0]

I definitely agree that they are more popular now than they've ever been. Just as other styles of hides. In the case of powertrails, they by definition of higher hide count for the world total, unlike other single-cache hide styles.

Hm. Having all of Ontario downloaded, I wonder how hard it would be to attempt to quickly identify all the powertrail caches in various areas (using a dreaded algorithm), and categorize them to find out what the ratio is; and even run a placed-date analysis and make some graphs of the increased proliferation of powertrail cache counts over the years...

[K!nder]

9 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I definitely agree that they are more popular now than they've ever been. Just as other styles of hides. In the case of powertrails, they by definition of higher hide count for the world total, unlike other single-cache hide styles.

Hm. Having all of Ontario downloaded, I wonder how hard it would be to attempt to quickly identify all the powertrail caches in various areas (using a dreaded algorithm), and categorize them to find out what the ratio is; and even run a placed-date analysis and make some graphs of the increased proliferation of powertrail cache counts over the years...

Are you going to do it? If so show us the results after, i am extremelly curious 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

10 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Hm. Having all of Ontario downloaded, I wonder how hard it would be to attempt to quickly identify all the powertrail caches in various areas (using a dreaded algorithm), and categorize them to find out what the ratio is; and even run a placed-date analysis and make some graphs of the increased proliferation of powertrail cache counts over the years...

I did something far simpler.  I created two pocket queries.  One includes cache placed prior to August 2015 within 20 miles of my home location.   The other includes caches with a place date after August 2015.  The number of results for each PQ is similar, but looking at the map and there is a distinct difference.  The "newer caches" PQ has a lot of strings of caches on it.  I'll also not that for the most part, the whole cache series/PT mentality didn't exist in my area until just a few years ago.  I imagine if one created PQs of many other places in North America, Europe, and even some countries in Asia the results would be similar:  by carefully choosing the placed date range and proximity, two lists of caches about the same size would be created but the results on the map would look very different.

[K!nder]

3 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I did something far simpler.  I created two pocket queries.  One includes cache placed prior to August 2015 within 20 miles of my home location.   The other includes caches with a place date after August 2015.  The number of results for each PQ is similar, but looking at the map and there is a distinct difference.  The "newer caches" PQ has a lot of strings of caches on it.  I'll also not that for the most part, the whole cache series/PT mentality didn't exist in my area until just a few years ago.  I imagine if one created PQs of many other places in North America, Europe, and even some countries in Asia the results would be similar:  by carefully choosing the placed date range and proximity, two lists of caches about the same size would be created but the results on the map would look very different.

With time maybe i will try that around some places in Europe. Tomorrow i have work to do

[+on4bam]

I ran a macro in GSAK to see how many (potential) PTs there are in Belgium.

Database used: unfound Belgium with 32356 caches

Filtered for series with more than 50 caches each: 2538 caches =7.8%

Most caches in one series: 250

Oldest series: August 2009

Youngest series: August 2017

Placed 2009: 31 caches

Placed 2010: 160 caches

Placed 2011:  48 caches

Placed 2012: 49 caches

Placed 2013: 238 caches

Placed 2014: 269 caches

Placed 2015: 426 caches

Placed 2016: 569 caches

Placed 2017: 745 caches

Traditional: 1705

Multi: 71

Mystery: 715

Rest (letterbox, EC, Wherigo): 47

This is just an indication as there are a few PT caches we found, not all will be "real" PT but larger series.

 

 

[+geocat_]

13 hours ago, K!nder said:

For example in Portugal he have, till now, almost 40% of the caches published this year are in a PowerTrail.

How did you get this figure?  Seems like a fairly specific calculation.  

[+barefootjeff]

There are no power trails at all in this area (the NSW Central Coast in Australia); the closest we'd have would be the 34-cache Classic Motorcycles series but they're spread out over 100km of road and certainly aren't crowding out other caches. Does that mean we're devolving, behind the times or just lucky?

Edited August 31, 2017 by barefootjeff

[+Harry Dolphin]

I think this qualifies as a power trail.

 

I've hiked halfway across Delaware!

[+hukilaulau]

Yes, I believe it's a trend.

One personal consequence for me is that I no longer try to introduce geocaching to anyone. I find the maps with their long green slime smudges embarrassing.

I find I can't really explain why anyone would do that. I can still find quality caches on my own, but if I were just beginning to look at geocaching today, I doubt that I would find    much appeal in the game.

[+thebruce0]

7 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I created two pocket queries.  One includes cache placed prior to August 2015 within 20 miles of my home location.   The other includes caches with a place date after August 2015.

Note that archived caches are not included in PQs. Any archived cache published prior to August 2015 will not count in your analysis, weighing only towards newer caches. That's why I'd use a database with caches including all those I've downloaded that are now archived; a better glance at historic caching activity than PQs 'as of today'.  (and that goes for any attempt at doing this cursory statistical view anywhere in the world)

Any comparison of 'recent' to 'past' geocaching placement activity will have to include all caches including those archived up to the earliest date in the range being analyzed.

[K!nder]

14 hours ago, on4bam said:

I ran a macro in GSAK to see how many (potential) PTs there are in Belgium.

Database used: unfound Belgium with 32356 caches

Filtered for series with more than 50 caches each: 2538 caches =7.8%

Most caches in one series: 250

Oldest series: August 2009

Youngest series: August 2017

Placed 2009: 31 caches

Placed 2010: 160 caches

Placed 2011:  48 caches

Placed 2012: 49 caches

Placed 2013: 238 caches

Placed 2014: 269 caches

Placed 2015: 426 caches

Placed 2016: 569 caches

Placed 2017: 745 caches

Traditional: 1705

Multi: 71

Mystery: 715

Rest (letterbox, EC, Wherigo): 47

This is just an indication as there are a few PT caches we found, not all will be "real" PT but larger series.

 

 

 Interesting would be to know how many PTs in 2017 placed / caches in 2017 placed

[K!nder]

9 hours ago, geocat_ said:

How did you get this figure?  Seems like a fairly specific calculation.  

It was not me who have done it. It was made by a geocacher in Portugal that knows everything about statistics. And the value was 39,xxx% i just said 40% to be more easy. He is always doing all kind of statistics about everything.

[+on4bam]

Ran a few more filters:

Archived series:

2012: 215 caches
2013: 19 caches
2014: 121 caches
2015: 277 caches
2016: 27 caches
2017: 4 caches

placed and archived (only physical caches, no events/CITO...)

2012: 4161
2013: 4296
2014: 4222
2015: 3599
2016: 1863
2017: 215

placed and still active (only physical caches, no events/CITO...)

2012: 2003
2013: 2847
2014: 4152
2015: 5556
2016: 7877
2017: 6514

 

 

[+simpjkee]

I think one bummer to the acceptance of powertrails is the now lack of new multicaches. Why place a 3 stage multi when you can place 3 traditionals? On the flipside, you can see who the powertrail cachers are by how many multis they've found. For example someone near me had found about 10,000 traditionals, 2,000 mysterys, and then like 10 multis. Clearly this person is caching for the numbers and can't be troubled for having to make 3 finds for only one smiley.

[+on4bam]

That trend is going on for a long time. There are even several places where we did a multi years ago where that multi is now archived and replaced by a series of traditionals and a bonus. When we started out in 2006 it seemed most of the map was filled with multi's and there were plenty of days that we just did that, one multi, just starting in the afternoon until the evening in a 10 Km radius. These days we drive up to 100 Km and start in the morning around 9:30/10:00 until 6/7 in the evening doing multi's or series with bonus that are at least a bit "special" (nature reserve, woods, traffic free, field puzzle, special containers or caches with a "story").

We're trying to get our traditional percentage below 60% but it's not easy.

 

[+cerberus1]

43 minutes ago, simpjkee said:

I think one bummer to the acceptance of powertrails is the now lack of new multicaches. Why place a 3 stage multi when you can place 3 traditionals? On the flipside, you can see who the powertrail cachers are by how many multis they've found. For example someone near me had found about 10,000 traditionals, 2,000 mysterys, and then like 10 multis. Clearly this person is caching for the numbers and can't be troubled for having to make 3 finds for only one smiley.

I'd sorta agree, if you didn't make it appear that a Traditional, just by name,  is a lame cache type... 

We've found most of our best views, and longest hikes had one high-terrain traditional at the end.

We still find multis (higher terrain mostly) and do them when we have time. 

Most of the multi we see today are two-stage, low terrain,  just to keep the weekend-n-done kids away.

[+simpjkee]

1 hour ago, on4bam said:

That trend is going on for a long time. There are even several places where we did a multi years ago where that multi is now archived and replaced by a series of traditionals and a bonus. When we started out in 2006 it seemed most of the map was filled with multi's and there were plenty of days that we just did that, one multi, just starting in the afternoon until the evening in a 10 Km radius. These days we drive up to 100 Km and start in the morning around 9:30/10:00 until 6/7 in the evening doing multi's or series with bonus that are at least a bit "special" (nature reserve, woods, traffic free, field puzzle, special containers or caches with a "story").

We're trying to get our traditional percentage below 60% but it's not easy.

 

Wow! 60%? That's pretty incredible. Mine is about 90%and I go out of my way to look for non traditionals to find.

[+barefootjeff]

Looking at the 1134 caches published so far this year in New South Wales (Australia), there are 802 traditionals (70.7%), 213 unknowns (18.8%) and 48 multis (4.2%). More locally, in the Gosford local government area, there have been 9 new caches made up of 6 traditionals, 1 unknown and 2 multis, but of those both multis, the unknown and.two of the traditionals are mine.

For my finds, 77.7% are traditionals, 10.5% are unknowns and 7.1% are multis.

[+on4bam]

29 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Looking at the 1134 caches published so far this year in New South Wales (Australia), there are 802 traditionals (70.7%), 213 unknowns (18.8%) and 48 multis (4.2%). More locally, in the Gosford local government area, there have been 9 new caches made up of 6 traditionals, 1 unknown and 2 multis, but of those both multis, the unknown and.two of the traditionals are mine.

For my finds, 77.7% are traditionals, 10.5% are unknowns and 7.1% are multis.

Looks about the same as here in Belgium.

6756 caches placed.

4766 Traditionals (70.5%)

1506 Mystery (22.2%)

316 Multi (4.6%) of which 74 <1Km, 120 1-10Km, 13 >10Km No indication on the 109 others.

My finds this year:

Total: 705 - traditional:369 (52.3%) - Multi:72 (10.2%) - Mystery:242 (34.3%) and a few EC, Letterbox, virtual, Wherigo.

Edited September 8, 2017 by on4bam

[+barefootjeff]

24 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Looking at the 1134 caches published so far this year in New South Wales (Australia), there are 802 traditionals (70.7%), 213 unknowns (18.8%) and 48 multis (4.2%). More locally, in the Gosford local government area, there have been 9 new caches made up of 6 traditionals, 1 unknown and 2 multis, but of those both multis, the unknown and.two of the traditionals are mine.

For my finds, 77.7% are traditionals, 10.5% are unknowns and 7.1% are multis.

I should have added that, for my hides, there are 11 traditionals, 6 unknowns and 13 multis, so I guess I'm doing my bit to promote multis.

[+Isonzo Karst]

My observation is that powertrail caches (which includes most, but not all geo-art) and boxless caches (virtuals and earthcaches) survive with or without active owners.  Other physical caches need active owners.
Over time, boxless and powertrail caches dominate more and more, as they're placed more and more and as they survive, and others do not. 

 

[+Team Microdot]

21 hours ago, simpjkee said:

For example someone near me had found about 10,000 traditionals, 2,000 mysterys, and then like 10 multis. Clearly this person is caching for the numbers and can't be troubled for having to make 3 finds for only one smiley.

Not just the numbers if they've done 2000 mystery caches as that would (assuming they actually solved them) involve a lot of time that somebody thirsty for numbers could spend clocking up more trads.

I find that I tend to ignore multi's bacause I can't safely factor them into a predefined plan or even know where I'm going to end up relative to wherever I've parked the car.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Team Microdot

[+simpjkee]

1 hour ago, Team Microdot said:

Not just the numbers if they've done 2000 mystery caches as that would (assuming they actually solved them) involve a lot of time that somebody thirsty for numbers could spend clocking up more trads.

I find that I tend to ignore multi's bacause I can't safely factor them into a predefined plan or even know where I'm going to end up relative to wherever I've parked the car.

Nah. These are the mystery power trails/geoart where the puzzle is easily solvable. Then you have a program like GSAK or something solve all 500 mystery caches and put the solved cords in a gpx file and all 500 mysterys are one by one down an old dirt road in the desert. I've seen Wherigo power trails/geoart like this as well. Multis just don't fit in power trails like other cache types do.