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Error in the guidelines reg. Mystery Caches


monsterbox

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Hi!

I guess I've found an error in the guidelines for mysteries (Help center 2.2):

" If the posted coordinates are not for the final stage, the final coordinates must be added as an additional waypoint. The final stage cannot be more than 2 miles (3.2 kilometers) from the posted coordinates. This allows the cache to show up in nearby  searches. "

I believe that the underlined "final" should be "first" instead. Otherwise a multi also shouldn't be allowed to be longer than 2 miles... This error can be found both in the guidelines as well as in the help center!

Bye,
Christian


 

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I'm not seeing an issue with the text you (the OP) quoted. The final stage of a mystery/puzzle/unknown cache cannot be more than 2 miles from the posted coords.

Maybe I'm just not reading your post correctly.

I'm not sure what that has to do with rules for multis. They are different cache types, so the rules are different.

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47 minutes ago, noncentric said:

I'm not seeing an issue with the text you (the OP) quoted. The final stage of a mystery/puzzle/unknown cache cannot be more than 2 miles from the posted coords.

Maybe I'm just not reading your post correctly.

I'm not sure what that has to do with rules for multis. They are different cache types, so the rules are different.

You are correct.  Multi's are a bit more flexible in this regard.  The oddity between the two probably stems from the fact that for a Multi, at least you have something relevant to look for at the posted coordinates.  A Puzzle with posted coordinates in the middle of the ocean would basically go unfound, since it would never show up in any local searches or PQ's, which might seem kind of funny, but is basically a waste of time and a Listing page.  The 2 mile limit on Puzzles was instituted quite some time ago though.  It's not something new.

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11 hours ago, monsterbox said:

Hi!

I guess I've found an error in the guidelines for mysteries (Help center 2.2):

" If the posted coordinates are not for the final stage, the final coordinates must be added as an additional waypoint. The final stage cannot be more than 2 miles (3.2 kilometers) from the posted coordinates. This allows the cache to show up in nearby  searches. "

I believe that the underlined "final" should be "first" instead. Otherwise a multi also shouldn't be allowed to be longer than 2 miles... This error can be found both in the guidelines as well as in the help center!

Bye,
Christian


 

Actually you are allowed to place the first stage further than 2 miles away. The rule applies only to the final stage as stated. For example, if the cache has three waypoints: Posted (so called bogus) coordinates, the first stage (solution for the puzzle) and the final stage (solution for the field puzzle at the first stage), then the first stage is allowed to be further than 2 miles away.

Edited by arisoft
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On 8/27/2017 at 9:02 AM, arisoft said:

Actually you are allowed to place the first stage further than 2 miles away. The rule applies only to the final stage as stated. For example, if the cache has three waypoints: Posted (so called bogus) coordinates, the first stage (solution for the puzzle) and the final stage (solution for the field puzzle at the first stage), then the first stage is allowed to be further than 2 miles away.

Hmm, I don't really see how this makes sense!? Could be I wasn't clear enough in what I mean, so here's my concern again:

1. Icon is placed somewhere
2. Calculated FIRST stage is within 2 miles and this makes some sense for me.
3. Final is WAY further, as there might be many stages in between, like with any normal multi.

So why shouldn't this be allowed? There's no big difference to a normal multi. Even there a final can be so far away from the icon, there even are extra icons that for!

I still think that the guidelines should be changed to FIRST and not FINAL stage in that point!

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8 minutes ago, monsterbox said:

So why shouldn't this be allowed? 

Probably the big majority of Unknowns doesn't have any further stages than the final and the rule ist made for this case. And for the other cases there are no more exeptions.

So I would think it isn't allowed also for multi-stage Unknowns just because it was decided like this.

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On 8/26/2017 at 1:50 PM, monsterbox said:

Hi!

I guess I've found an error in the guidelines for mysteries (Help center 2.2):

" If the posted coordinates are not for the final stage, the final coordinates must be added as an additional waypoint. The final stage cannot be more than 2 miles (3.2 kilometers) from the posted coordinates. This allows the cache to show up in nearby  searches. "

I believe that the underlined "final" should be "first" instead. Otherwise a multi also shouldn't be allowed to be longer than 2 miles... This error can be found both in the guidelines as well as in the help center!

Bye,
Christian


 

The rule as stated makes perfect sense.

While the cacher is sitting at home looking at the cache page on his computer trying to solve the puzzle, he knows that the actual location of the physical cache (that is, the final stage) is no more than 2 miles away from the posted (bogus) coordinates. As such, he know that there is a defined-limited range of where the cache can be as he is trying to resolve what the actual coordinate are.

This is completely unrelated to multi-caches. The major difference is that with puzzles, you should have enough information on the cache page in order to solve the puzzle. Whereas with a multi, you are required to visit each stage in order to determine the actual location of the cache. Of course, there are exceptions and work-arounds.

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5 minutes ago, Team Christiansen said:

While the cacher is sitting at home looking at the cache page on his computer trying to solve the puzzle, he knows that the actual location of the physical cache (that is, the final stage) is no more than 2 miles away from the posted (bogus) coordinates. As such, he know that there is a defined-limited range of where the cache can be as he is trying to resolve what the actual coordinate are.

This is completely unrelated to multi-caches. The major difference is that with puzzles, you should have enough information on the cache page in order to solve the puzzle. Whereas with a multi, you are required to visit each stage in order to determine the actual location of the cache. Of course, there are exceptions and work-arounds.

This is not true everywhere that you solve a puzzle, go to the coordiantes, finished.

There are areas where Unknown caches may have up to many stages like multi-caches, especially some of the very famous, adventurous and elaborate ones around here have stages.

But they can't be labeled as multi as there are big and difficult puzzle parts in the beginning to find out where to start and puzzles at/after each stage.

Nevertheless, the very final has to be within 2 miles from the header, whether you like it or not, if you can't label the cache as another cache type (some try multi-cache, lettbox hybrid or Wherigo).

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3 hours ago, monsterbox said:

So why shouldn't this be allowed? There's no big difference to a normal multi.

This is a good question. There is a quite big difference between multi caches and normal mystery caches. To find a multicache, the player must go to the posted coordinates for some reason. It is in guidelines this way. In mystery cache, posted coordinates may be bogus - nothing to see. The guideline prevents making "joke" caches where the cache icon is, for example, in a wrong country.

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I have a multi-stage cache that didn't quite fit the mould for a standard multi so I listed it as an unknown/mystery. The waypoints are spread far and wide over about a 10km range but the final is close to the bogus listed coordinates. One of the reasons I didn't want to list it as a multi is that the waypoints are unordered - there is no "first" waypoint as they can be found in any order and part of the challenge is to find a route around them that minimises travel time from wherever you start.

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26 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I have a multi-stage cache that didn't quite fit the mould for a standard multi so I listed it as an unknown/mystery. The waypoints are spread far and wide over about a 10km range but the final is close to the bogus listed coordinates. One of the reasons I didn't want to list it as a multi is that the waypoints are unordered - there is no "first" waypoint as they can be found in any order and part of the challenge is to find a route around them that minimises travel time from wherever you start.

If there is a physical cache at the listed coordinates, this definitely is a multi-cache. There are some simple rules for a multi-cache.

  • Must have multiple stages
  • The posted coordinates must be for the first stage.
  • The cache can be found by reading the cache page and following the instructions in the field.
  • If the cache includes a projection, the projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages.

Multi-cache can also have simple field puzzles according to the latest guidelines. Some players don't know this and may incorrectly critisize the setup.

It is allowed to publish almost any cache type as a mystery cache, but it's not wise if you want a lot of visitors.

 

Edited by arisoft
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4 minutes ago, arisoft said:
28 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I have a multi-stage cache that didn't quite fit the mould for a standard multi so I listed it as an unknown/mystery. The waypoints are spread far and wide over about a 10km range but the final is close to the bogus listed coordinates. One of the reasons I didn't want to list it as a multi is that the waypoints are unordered - there is no "first" waypoint as they can be found in any order and part of the challenge is to find a route around them that minimises travel time from wherever you start.

If there is a physical cache at the listed coordinates, this definitely is a multi-cache. There are some simple rules for a multi-cache.

  • Must have multiple stages
  • The posted coordinates must be for the first stage.
  • The cache can be found by reading the cache page and following the instructions in the field.
  • If the cache includes a projection, the projection must be calculated in the field using bearing and distance from one of the stages.

Multi-cache can also have simple field puzzles according to latest guidelines. Some players don't know this and may incorrectly critisize the setup.

It is allowed to publish almost any cache type as a mystery cache, but it's not wise if you want a lot of visitors.

There's nothing at the listed coordinates, although they might be a good place to park for the short hike to the final. The second point you listed implies there must be a "first" stage, but since my stages were completely unordered (the idea being to figure out a suitable order to visit them depending on where you start from) it didn't really work as a multi in spite of being multi-like, although there were also puzzle elements involving solving cryptic clues to what to look for at each of the waypoints. In any event it proved popular, with currently 83% favourites and it won the regional cache-of-the-year in its category.

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34 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I have a multi-stage cache that didn't quite fit the mould for a standard multi so I listed it as an unknown/mystery. The waypoints are spread far and wide over about a 10km range but the final is close to the bogus listed coordinates. One of the reasons I didn't want to list it as a multi is that the waypoints are unordered - there is no "first" waypoint as they can be found in any order and part of the challenge is to find a route around them that minimises travel time from wherever you start.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the traditional Multi definition where you start at one stage, which gives you the coordinates of the next, etc. I've seen many Multis of the style you describe where all of the stages are visible and it's up to the finder to decide on the order. It still has multiple stages, so it's fine being listed as a Multi.

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31 minutes ago, The A-Team said:
1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

I have a multi-stage cache that didn't quite fit the mould for a standard multi so I listed it as an unknown/mystery. The waypoints are spread far and wide over about a 10km range but the final is close to the bogus listed coordinates. One of the reasons I didn't want to list it as a multi is that the waypoints are unordered - there is no "first" waypoint as they can be found in any order and part of the challenge is to find a route around them that minimises travel time from wherever you start.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the traditional Multi definition where you start at one stage, which gives you the coordinates of the next, etc. I've seen many Multis of the style you describe where all of the stages are visible and it's up to the finder to decide on the order. It still has multiple stages, so it's fine being listed as a Multi.

Agreed. I didn't think that the stages of a multi-cache had to be in a specific order.

If the stages are revealed in the cache description, then cachers can usually search for those stages in any order.

If the stages are not revealed until found, then they would have to be in a specific order. For example, find the first stage, which gives the coords for the next stage, which then has the coords for the next, etc. That type would obviously have a specific order.

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To fulfil Monsterbox' requirements you have to:

  • Mark the cache as Multi
  • Use the "Field Puzzle" and "Special tool required" (mobile phone with Internet access) attributes
  • put the questions into a Tupperware box at Stage 1

and you are fine with the regulations B)

Edit: There is no rule preventing you from putting the same questions into Stage 1 and the cache description..

Edited by tom1996
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It does make me wonder...since the guidelines only state that the "final stage cannot be more than 3.2 kilometers from the posted coordinates", could you have a 2-stage mystery where the first stage that you solved the puzzle for was like 100 km away, but that simply redirected you to a final stage that was within 3.2 km of the bogus posted cords.  It could make it a challenge to solve the puzzle if you were assuming that the first few digits of the coords had to be certain numbers, but they weren't.  It does seem that the current wording of the guidelines might allow for such a curve ball. 

  • Upvote 1
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6 hours ago, tom1996 said:

Use the "Field Puzzle" and "Special tool required" (mobile phone with Internet access) attributes

Sorry... Using a mobile internet access is not allowed in multi-cache.

One reviewer here did himself a "multi-cache" which was actually intercache and another reviewer published it. It was funny to see how fast the cache type was changed to mystery after they realized this mistake.

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8 minutes ago, tom1996 said:

Just for curiosity: How do

  • audio caches
  • NFC multis

work in your area?

 

 

Quote

2.2. Mystery Caches

Mystery Cache designs

...

Beacon caches

Beacon caches include a wireless transmission device at one of their stages.

According these current guidelines, NFC is definitely a mystery as it is specifically mentioned. If the audio cache works without a device, I mean you have to use your ears, then this rule does not apply.

I have seen that the QR tags are difficult to classify consistently. Few of them are published as a multi-cache.

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