Geocaching Ethics!

[+Team Microdot]

4 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

So as owners we have to adjust our mentality about the experience we want to provide with our caches. That's all we can do!

Well, we can just stop wasting our time and go use it in a more productive / rewarding manner elsewhere.

[+thebruce0]

2 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Well, we can just stop wasting our time and go use it in a more productive / rewarding manner elsewhere.

Well, that too, but where's the geocaching fun in that
That'd be trying a different kind of fun (hopefully). Write a book. Write a puzzle book. Just don't get upset when people start plopping your puzzles into an auto-solver (not that you'd have any idea they were doing it in the privacy of their own home anyway :P)

You could be the puzzle police and if you spot someone on the bus not using a pencil to solve a puzzle and start ranting at them, then create some forum posts to call out random bus-dude-cheaters..somewhere..for their lack of puzzling ethics.

meh. 

I suppose if you want to be really evil as a CO you could code up a website that requires the person to manually solve a cipher puzzle and submit it there for the confirmation/reward - even if they could use a tool to solve it, the process has to be manual and incremental (like a teacher checking that all your math steps are written out in full or you get 0 even if you have the right answer).  But, if on the web, someone will find a way to hack even that, no matter how complex the coding strategy (yep even if it's a Flash embed).

[+Team Microdot]

2 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Well, that too, but where's the geocaching fun in that
That'd be trying a different kind of fun (hopefully). Write a book. Write a puzzle book. Just don't get upset when people start plopping your puzzles into an auto-solver (not that you'd have any idea they were doing it in the privacy of their own home anyway :P)

You could be the puzzle police and if you spot someone on the bus not using a pencil to solve a puzzle and start ranting at them, then create some forum posts to call out random bus-dude-cheaters..somewhere..for their lack of puzzling ethics.

meh. 

I suppose if you want to be really evil as a CO you could code up a website that requires the person to manually solve a cipher puzzle and submit it there for the confirmation/reward - even if they could use a tool to solve it, the process has to be manual and incremental (like a teacher checking that all your math steps are written out in full or you get 0 even if you have the right answer).  But, if on the web, someone will find a way to hack even that, no matter how complex the coding strategy (yep even if it's a Flash embed).

Exactly - once it stops being fun, why continue?

Being upset is a natural human response to disappointment. Insisting people not get upset seems, well, a little inhuman.

I suppose it comes down to the laws of demand and supply.

 

[+thebruce0]

Well obviously the other option is to just stop. Just as we can't force others to follow our puzzle-solving rules or etiquette, we can't force puzzle creators to not get upset. I thought that not-making-puzzles was one of the most obvious solutions to the problem. But that's substractive from the whole. It is possible to have fun creating, and it's possible to have fun solving. Why encourage people to stop either?

But yes. If you get too upset about it, then you can consider doing something else. Nothing wrong with that, it is obviously an option. But I'd rather work towards positive solutions for everyone

[+Team Microdot]

1 minute ago, thebruce0 said:

But I'd rather work towards positive solutions for everyone

If only more people had that attitude the entire discussion would be moot

 

[+thebruce0]

3 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

If only more people had that attitude the entire discussion would be moot

In an ideal world... but we'd still have discussions about how to improve; better methodologies, inspirations, ideas, techniques... those are more interesting and more fun!

[+Team Microdot]

31 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

In an ideal world... but we'd still have discussions about how to improve; better methodologies, inspirations, ideas, techniques... those are more interesting and more fun!

A far cry from your earlier position which seemed to amount to the CO's only option being to suck it up.

[+thebruce0]

6 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

A far cry from your earlier position which seemed to amount to the CO's only option being to suck it up.

Wow, dude, nowhere did I say that or imply that, way to put words in my mouth. c'mon.
If someone provides suggestions for how to have a better experience if there's a problem, is it now required to also disclaim that not taking the advice is also an option, or else you're being antagonistic in some way? It's like you're looking for a fight...  I'm just offering friendly advice in the discussion for ethics in geocaching when it comes to puzzle design.

Can we not assume malice in the absense of recognition?

[+Team Microdot]

4 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Wow, dude, nowhere did I say that or imply that, way to put words in my mouth. c'mon.
If someone provides suggestions for how to have a better experience if there's a problem, is it now required to also disclaim that not taking the advice is also an option, or else you're being antagonistic in some way? It's like you're looking for a fight...  I'm just offering friendly advice in the discussion for ethics in geocaching when it comes to puzzle design.

Can we not assume malice in the absense of recognition?

So you didn't say

Quote

So as owners we have to adjust our mentality about the experience we want to provide with our caches. That's all we can do!

?

[+thebruce0]

Yes. And where do you get "you must do this and suck it up!" ??

"As owners"

ie, If we want to own one, then yes, that's all we can do. Otherwise, we open the door for angst, anger, frustration. So that or, don't be an owner. Easy. That's not the same as SUCK IT UP. It's friendly advice for how to have a better experience. Unless you want to be angry at cachers for not following your rules that neither you nor anyone else can enforce. If you want to live that way, go right ahead.

[+Team Microdot]

20 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Yes. And where do you get "you must do this and suck it up!" ??

"As owners"

ie, If we want to own one, then yes, that's all we can do. Otherwise, we open the door for angst, anger, frustration. So that or, don't be an owner. Easy. That's not the same as SUCK IT UP. It's friendly advice for how to have a better experience. Unless you want to be angry at cachers for not following your rules that neither you nor anyone else can enforce. If you want to live that way, go right ahead.

So exactly as I thought then - one option - like it or lump it.

 

[+thebruce0]

7 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

So exactly as I thought then - one option - like it or lump it.

... logically, what other option is there? If you hate something, you either live hating it (and that rubs off on others), you find a way to change so you no longer hate it or no longer have a negative effect on others, or you step away from it. Can we get back to how we can all attempt to enjoy it more, again? And yes, there's only one way for that to happen.

[+Team Microdot]

22 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

... logically, what other option is there? If you hate something, you either live hating it (and that rubs off on others), you find a way to change so you no longer hate it or no longer have a negative effect on others, or you step away from it. Can we get back to how we can all attempt to enjoy it more, again? And yes, there's only one way for that to happen.

So the only way for things to improve is for the CO to change their attitude or behaviour?

And if they don't then they are bad because they have a negative impact on others?

And this is the friendly, inspirational advice geared toward enhancing enjoyment for all?

 

[+thebruce0]

You are trying to find negativity and drama where there is none by twisting what I'm saying. I'm done with that line of thought, I've said my bit and made it clear. peace.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

3 hours ago, redsox_mark said:

I would say cipher solving tools are generally accepted/expected to be used.   Maybe a better example of a "spoiler tool" is with those "Magic Eye" pictures.   Those are clearly intended to be solved by looking at them.    But there are tools which can do that.   Still, in general I don't see using tools to solve a puzzle as being unethical.  

Some good comments to my earlier post.  I really wasn't thinking of those that use tools which basically allow one to copy-n-paste the puzzle into a form and have it spit out the solution as unethical.  I have, however, seen somewhat of a trend in *expecting" that the solution to a puzzle is finding out which online tool should be used.  I also have written some code to solve a puzzle and suspect that most COs would consider that a valid means to solve their puzzle cache.   The "Magic Eye" solvers is a good example of a tool that does all the work.   Some of the puzzle solving tools available do all the work and those that use them only need to match the puzzle with a tool and probably don't understand how that puzzle works at all.

 

[+Team Microdot]

33 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

You are trying to find negativity and drama where there is none by twisting what I'm saying. I'm done with that line of thought, I've said my bit and made it clear. peace.

Codswallop.

[+thebruce0]

49 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I have, however, seen somewhat of a trend in *expecting" that the solution to a puzzle is finding out which online tool should be used.  I also have written some code to solve a puzzle and suspect that most COs would consider that a valid means to solve their puzzle cache.

Yeah there are some puzzles where the content is so unique that a specific tool must be used to decode it, and then it would be entirely decoded. In those cases it's likely the CO thinks that the 'puzzle' isn't so much the decoding as it is the discovery of the encoding method. IMO that's towing the lie to the 'leap' style puzzles where you have to effectively read the CO's mind to find the solution (or in other words, trial and error until something works).

Personally I moreso enjoy puzzles that have a logical progression towards the solution; you can connect the dots either by finding patterns that reap bits of rewards, or the clues themselves lead you to the right paths.  To me, those are also the types of puzzles that are harder to automate solutions. You still have to think through them to determine puzzle methods before actually doing any decoding.

As another example, the 'digital root' concept is proliferating so much now that I've seen is as a type of 'leap' in some puzzles, where the entirely of the puzzle leads to word/phrase answers. But there's no indication of what to use in order to go from text to numbers.  Single words? Sentences? First letters? etc... that's a trial and error type I'm not fond of in puzzles, and some COs use the leap to bump the difficulty. It is hard if you have trouble determining the method, or crazy easy if you happen to try the right one first.  Another way to look at it is there's no skill in trial and error; mostly luck, but you have a better chance the bigger your repository of ideas to test are.

A puzzle with seemingly gibberish text for the description and no hints would be that kind of 'leap' puzzle, imo.
But if it had a hint somewhere towards what type of cipher was used, then there are dots to connect and the difficulty would be more in the connecting of dots than the trial and error of multiple cipher types.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

2 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

A puzzle with seemingly gibberish text for the description and no hints would be that kind of 'leap' puzzle, imo.
But if it had a hint somewhere towards what type of cipher was used, then there are dots to connect and the difficulty would be more in the connecting of dots than the trial and error of multiple cipher types.

Sometimes a hint doesn't help if it assumes knowledge required to even make sense of the hint.   I recall one puzzle that was based on a theme which had a hint that mentioned eating a Salad.   Apparently, there is a band called Salad (an alternative rock group based in the UK) which did a song that was related to the theme.  I'd never heard of the group and even if I had probably wouldn't know which of their songs might be related to the theme.  

I, too, enjoy puzzles which contain multiple (sometimes concurrent) mini-puzzles.   To me, the ones that have a simple place to start that draws you into the puzzle are much more enjoyable than ones that some here have described as "moon logic" or "guess what I am thinking".   One could easily spend weeks or months and never make any headway on a puzzle like that, but at least with a puzzle cache with many mini puzzle in it, one can feel like they're making progress.

[+Team Microdot]

20 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I, too, enjoy puzzles which contain multiple (sometimes concurrent) mini-puzzles.   To me, the ones that have a simple place to start that draws you into the puzzle are much more enjoyable than ones that some here have described as "moon logic" or "guess what I am thinking".   One could easily spend weeks or months and never make any headway on a puzzle like that, but at least with a puzzle cache with many mini puzzle in it, one can feel like they're making progress.

If only there were some way to establish a reciprocal feedback loop between puzzle setter and puzzle seeker such that both could achieve a symbiotic flow state leading to heightened enjoyment for all...

 

[+thebruce0]

27 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Sometimes a hint doesn't help if it assumes knowledge required to even make sense of the hint.   I recall one puzzle that was based on a theme which had a hint that mentioned eating a Salad.   Apparently, there is a band called Salad (an alternative rock group based in the UK) which did a song that was related to the theme.  I'd never heard of the group and even if I had probably wouldn't know which of their songs might be related to the theme.  

Sounds like the hint itself was a puzzle to determine what the actual hint was

 

28 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I, too, enjoy puzzles which contain multiple (sometimes concurrent) mini-puzzles.   To me, the ones that have a simple place to start that draws you into the puzzle are much more enjoyable than ones that some here have described as "moon logic" or "guess what I am thinking".   One could easily spend weeks or months and never make any headway on a puzzle like that, but at least with a puzzle cache with many mini puzzle in it, one can feel like they're making progress.

Ditto. Unless you're fortunate enough to stumble on the right answer right away. I've heard 'moon logic' before too, I like that

[+Team Microdot]

2 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

 I've heard 'moon logic' before too, I like that

I can't help but wonder how many people have uttered those words only to later groan when they realise how simple the solution / next step actually was.

I know I have - more than once.

[+humboldt flier]

A most prolific and highly respected individual cacher in the region has "HAD IT".  I am close to that point as well.

This excerpt from an archival log pretty much says all.

"Out pulling caches. Archiving everything in my inventory as time allows. Too many hassles and too much whining from cachers. Verbal abuse in email and logs. Finds logged when they did not visit and sign. People celebrating the king of fake logs with events! And GS not providing any support when the CO tries to enforce the quality of his caches. Done.

My suggestions for anyone that has concerns with this approach:
* Help clean up the game by raising your concerns with Groundspeak. Let them know that bad behavior by players, cheating, allowing false finds, and such has degraded the game. 
* Do the same with the cachers involved. Politely hold them accountable. Publicly, in some cases, if need be."

 

 

 

[+thebruce0]

The problem with "false finds" though is it's entirely a matter of he-said-she-said, beyond the issue of name-in-logbook. There's not much Groundspeak can do, but as community we can do our best to encourage good ethics (the unenforceable spirit of geocaching, which obviously can vary from person to person), and discourage (unwholesome) competition and questionable tactics. The local community really sets the tone for the local geocaching above and beyond the little that GS can objectively enforce.  It's unfortunate when the negative grows so much that it causes veterans and positive cachers to toss in the towel.  That's also how the face of the game evolves over the years. Old guard moves on, new guard moves in (or vice versa, or simultaneously).

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

It's unfortunate when the negative grows so much that it causes veterans and positive cachers to toss in the towel.

Yep. One of my favorite local cache owners is in the process of archiving his caches. He just got fed up with the disrespect he kept receiving from those logging his caches. It's a shame really.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 8/25/2017 at 1:43 PM, thebruce0 said:

It's unfortunate when the negative grows so much that it causes veterans and positive cachers to toss in the towel.  That's also how the face of the game evolves over the years. Old guard moves on, new guard moves in (or vice versa, or simultaneously).

I've been playing the game for 10 years and don't remember ever seeing so many long time geocachers throwing in the towel as we've seen in the last couple of years.  I would not consider that an evolution at all.  

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I've been playing the game for 10 years and don't remember ever seeing so many long time geocachers throwing in the towel as we've seen in the last couple of years.  I would not consider that an evolution at all.  

Yes, but I'd also argue there's never been so much of an influx of new geocachers than in the past few years. I see it more like the turnover rate is increasing.  More new cachers, and more older ones leaving, and shorter career spans of newer ones. Considering the community count still appears to be growing, I take that to mean there are more newer people joining than older ones leaving. Because of that the 'face' of the game is evolving with the newer generation. Whether that's good/bad, YMMV.

[+Team Microdot]

7 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Yes, but I'd also argue there's never been so much of an influx of new geocachers than in the past few years. I see it more like the turnover rate is increasing.  More new cachers, and more older ones leaving, and shorter career spans of newer ones. Considering the community count still appears to be growing, I take that to mean there are more newer people joining than older ones leaving. Because of that the 'face' of the game is evolving with the newer generation. Whether that's good/bad, YMMV.

The face of the game is evolving? Do you just mean that different people are playing?

[+NYPaddleCacher]

22 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

On 8/28/2017 at 7:34 AM, NYPaddleCacher said:

I've been playing the game for 10 years and don't remember ever seeing so many long time geocachers throwing in the towel as we've seen in the last couple of years.  I would not consider that an evolution at all.  

Yes, but I'd also argue there's never been so much of an influx of new geocachers than in the past few years. I see it more like the turnover rate is increasing.  More new cachers, and more older ones leaving, and shorter career spans of newer ones. Considering the community count still appears to be growing, I take that to mean there are more newer people joining than older ones leaving. Because of that the 'face' of the game is evolving with the newer generation. Whether that's good/bad, YMMV.

If the face of the game is changing such that long time contributors of the game are leaving, there is no question in my mind on whether that's good or bad.  

[+Team Microdot]

2 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

On 28/08/2017 at 1:52 PM, thebruce0 said:

On 28/08/2017 at 0:34 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

I've been playing the game for 10 years and don't remember ever seeing so many long time geocachers throwing in the towel as we've seen in the last couple of years.  I would not consider that an evolution at all.  

Yes, but I'd also argue there's never been so much of an influx of new geocachers than in the past few years. I see it more like the turnover rate is increasing.  More new cachers, and more older ones leaving, and shorter career spans of newer ones. Considering the community count still appears to be growing, I take that to mean there are more newer people joining than older ones leaving. Because of that the 'face' of the game is evolving with the newer generation. Whether that's good/bad, YMMV.

If the face of the game is changing such that long time contributors of the game are leaving, there is no question in my mind on whether that's good or bad.  

In fairness I'd have to take into account the nature and scale of the contributions they had made

[+thebruce0]

3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

If the face of the game is changing such that long time contributors of the game are leaving, there is no question in my mind on whether that's good or bad.  

I understand the sentiment, but there are definitely more factors in decided 'good' or 'bad' than merely whether someone is a long-time contributor. (and this is not me defending nor criticizing the direction it's going, just saying)

Personally I think there are good directions, directions that need much work, and bad directions. Then I'll consider the in- and out-flow of the player base... but that's just me .

[+bflentje]

On 8/25/2017 at 11:40 AM, humboldt flier said:

A most prolific and highly respected individual cacher in the region has "HAD IT".  I am close to that point as well.

This excerpt from an archival log pretty much says all.

"Out pulling caches. Archiving everything in my inventory as time allows. Too many hassles and too much whining from cachers. Verbal abuse in email and logs. Finds logged when they did not visit and sign. People celebrating the king of fake logs with events! And GS not providing any support when the CO tries to enforce the quality of his caches. Done.

My suggestions for anyone that has concerns with this approach:
* Help clean up the game by raising your concerns with Groundspeak. Let them know that bad behavior by players, cheating, allowing false finds, and such has degraded the game. 
* Do the same with the cachers involved. Politely hold them accountable. Publicly, in some cases, if need be."

 

 

 

Or just stop hiding impossible to solve puzzles. Or freely offer help when asked. Problem is easily solved without picking up your toys and going home.

[+Team Microdot]

2 hours ago, bflentje said:

Or just stop hiding impossible to solve puzzles. Or freely offer help when asked. Problem is easily solved without picking up your toys and going home.

What's going on, someone daring to expect people to actually solve a puzzle to claim a find?

Burn them. They are clearly a witch.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

14 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

17 hours ago, bflentje said:

Or just stop hiding impossible to solve puzzles. Or freely offer help when asked. Problem is easily solved without picking up your toys and going home.

What's going on, someone daring to expect people to actually solve a puzzle to claim a find?

Burn them. They are clearly a witch.

And then denigrate them for choosing to stop engaging in an activity they're no longer enjoying.  After all, who cares if they're less satisfied with how the game is being played.  They're taking away caches that could increase find counts!

[+niraD]

6 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

And then denigrate them for choosing to stop engaging in an activity they're no longer enjoying.  After all, who cares if they're less satisfied with how the game is being played.  They're taking away caches that could increase find counts!

Not to mention taking away caches that could fill rare spaces for Fizzy or Jasmer challenge caches.

[+bflentje]

22 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

What's going on, someone daring to expect people to actually solve a puzzle to claim a find?

Burn them. They are clearly a witch.

The new quoting system stinks. You totally lose some of the context when only the last layer is shown. :-(

[+niraD]

5 minutes ago, bflentje said:

22 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

What's going on, someone daring to expect people to actually solve a puzzle to claim a find?

Burn them. They are clearly a witch.

The new quoting system stinks. You totally lose some of the context when only the last layer is shown. :-(

You can select the context you want to quote, then click the "Quote this" popup that appears. It isn't very obvious, but it works.