time limited challenge caches

[+dprovan]

3 hours ago, Joshism said:

Irresponsible people ruin things for responsible people.

It was more the fear of irresponsible people that ruined things.

[+narcissa]

20 hours ago, dprovan said:

Something was taken away from me for no good reason.

And the people with complaints and concerns about challenge caches also feel their whining is legitimate. It's just a lot of whining all around at this point. No need to privilege one side or the other.

[+thebruce0]

To go right back to the topic title...

Long ago we had discussions about challenges (back around the defunct Geocaching Challenges era), and I attempted to distinguish classes of challenges:

1. Accomplishments - these are what challenge caches are now. No time limits. No reduction in caching habits. No potential for 'dequalifying'. Entirely additive caching. In theory, everyone will eventually qualify (whether days or years) if they cache unrestrictively, whether they intend to qualify or not. Veterans may qualify instantly having already accomplished the goal, newcomers will have more work to do to qualify because they haven't yet accomplished the goal.

2. Challenges - Current-state based challenge, be it time or quantity or what have you. Prior statistics are irrelevant, everyone starts on the same footing. "As of this moment, you must..." in order to qualify. Harder for veterans who, since caches can only be found once, may have cleared out a large region around home making new finds difficult, but easier for newcomers who have a large pool of caches to choose from which may qualify.  Mary Hyde is this type of challenge (Mary Hyde's single souvenirs have to be simple to not make it unfairly difficult for people who've cached out their area).

#2 is no longer allowed for Challenge Caches. Only #1.

Reducing it to this mentality, to me it now makes sense to have souvenirs as the "reward" (such as Mary Hyde, or 31 days of caching), rather than a smiley, for such literal start-finish-line challenges. I do think that there's enough flexibility to offer better souvenirs, more difficult souvenirs, for those who do wish a tougher challenge, without directly impacting the hobby of finding of caches. Offer tiered souvenirs, and not ones that everyone will get; why not? Competition? There's another thread for that...

[+dprovan]

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Long ago we had discussions about challenges (back around the defunct Geocaching Challenges era), and I attempted to distinguish classes of challenges:

That's a good division that covers most everything, although one of the problems I have with GS's attitude towards challenges is that in preventing challenges, they rule out everything except accomplishments, so a CO can't come up with a new idea that isn't really either.

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Reducing it to this mentality, to me it now makes sense to have souvenirs as the "reward" (such as Mary Hyde, or 31 days of caching), rather than a smiley, for such literal start-finish-line challenges.

I have no interest in souvenirs. For challenge caches that are challenging, in particular, when I meet the challenge, I want to log the find so I can talk about the challenge and what it meant to me for the same reason I want to log cache finds and talk about them. I'm not doing it for trophies.

[+thebruce0]

4 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I have no interest in souvenirs. For challenge caches that are challenging, in particular, when I meet the challenge, I want to log the find so I can talk about the challenge and what it meant to me for the same reason I want to log cache finds and talk about them. I'm not doing it for trophies.

I agree. I liked challenge cache allowances before. I'd like them back. But there's more to the decision than just what I'd like, which is why to me the souvenir as reward makes sense. I'd prefer to be able to log caches with actual challenges, but given the problems that led to the moratorium, I can understand why GS are testing out (presumably) a reward system like Mary Hyde with souvenirs. It's more akin to them adopting an automated badge system the way we used to do it before statistics with our custom profile html.  Seems so far at least like there's been a lot more acceptance to this overall than with Geocaching Challenges (which I also personally enjoyed, despite it being abused by many, left way too loose on guidelines, and leading to its inevitable downfall)

[+noncentric]

29 minutes ago, dprovan said:

3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Reducing it to this mentality, to me it now makes sense to have souvenirs as the "reward" (such as Mary Hyde, or 31 days of caching), rather than a smiley, for such literal start-finish-line challenges.

I have no interest in souvenirs. For challenge caches that are challenging, in particular, when I meet the challenge, I want to log the find so I can talk about the challenge and what it meant to me for the same reason I want to log cache finds and talk about them. I'm not doing it for trophies.

Yeah - I'd rather have challenge caches continue as-is than to see them completely banned and replaced by souvenirs.  The post-moratorium rules have eliminated some challenge types that I enjoyed, but at least the pre-moratorium ones have been allowed to continue and there is some potential for new challenge caches that might be interesting, if a CO can come up with a good idea that works within the current guidelines.

I wouldn't be opposed to simple souvenirs, like Jasmer or Fizzy or calendar, but I wouldn't want to see GS resources spent on something that is currently accomplished by BadgeGen.  I wouldn't be surprised if GS ends up getting complaints from cachers about how a particular 'accomplishment' doesn't have a souvenir.  "There is a souvenir for having 2000 and 3000 finds, but how about a souvenir for having 2500"  or  "There is a souvenir for completing a Fizzy grid, but how about a souvenir for completing half of a Fizzy grid"...

There have already been complaints about how some countries don't yet have souvenirs, so I don't see how 'accomplishment' souvenirs would be an attractive use of time.

[+thebruce0]

22 minutes ago, noncentric said:

I wouldn't be opposed to simple souvenirs, like Jasmer or Fizzy or calendar, but I wouldn't want to see GS resources spent on something that is currently accomplished by BadgeGen.

Not that I'm advocating for it, but there is more value to many in the "official" souvenir, than a custom badge you can make up yourself for whatever you want to brag about. If it's official, people will it more.

Quote

I wouldn't be surprised if GS ends up getting complaints from cachers about how a particular 'accomplishment' doesn't have a souvenir.  "There is a souvenir for having 2000 and 3000 finds, but how about a souvenir for having 2500"  or  "There is a souvenir for completing a Fizzy grid, but how about a souvenir for completing half of a Fizzy grid"...

Agreed. However it's better than cachers arguing with each other and with reviewers about whether a challenge is fair, or why one is published but theirs is denied, or appeals about logging, and all that other cache-related drama.  A souvenir is in-house; one internal source to make decisions, one source from where ideas come. Complaints go there, and since it's not cache-related, there's no prior etiquette - GS sets the tone and ethic for souvenirs, and it's easier to deal with 'complaints' (or, suggestions).  Not perfect, but more manageable. And simpler than Geocaching Challenges (mainly because they're only made in-house)

Quote

There have already been complaints about how some countries don't yet have souvenirs, so I don't see how 'accomplishment' souvenirs would be an attractive use of time.

I'd chalk that up to the fact that there's a finite number of countries, and not every country has a souvenir yet; so there's a reasonable cause for people to make requests for a souvenir. It's an incomplete system. There'd certainly be suggestions for souvenirs based on statistical accomplishments, but that's a theoretically limitless set of possibilities. If GS does take suggestions, they can set the terms for how/when they implement new souvenirs. Very different than caches.

Again, not that I'm advocating all of this, just exploring how souvenirs could potentially be used to address (even if not fully solve) the time-limited challenge type of accomplishment/reward system that's been lost from old challenges.

[+noncentric]

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

2 hours ago, noncentric said:

I wouldn't be opposed to simple souvenirs, like Jasmer or Fizzy or calendar, but I wouldn't want to see GS resources spent on something that is currently accomplished by BadgeGen.

Not that I'm advocating for it, but there is more value to many in the "official" souvenir, than a custom badge you can make up yourself for whatever you want to brag about. If it's official, people will it more.

Well, I wouldn't consider BadgeGen badges to be something 'you can make up yourself for whatever you want to brag about'.  There is a finite set of badges, with badge requirements established by the website.  It is, in some ways, official - especially since it ties into PGC, which has a more 'official' presence since it's association with challenge caches.

If you're talking about the graphics that some cachers have on their profile to 'brag about' certain series or events or other things, I've never been a fan of those, then yes.

 

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Quote

I wouldn't be surprised if GS ends up getting complaints from cachers about how a particular 'accomplishment' doesn't have a souvenir.  "There is a souvenir for having 2000 and 3000 finds, but how about a souvenir for having 2500"  or  "There is a souvenir for completing a Fizzy grid, but how about a souvenir for completing half of a Fizzy grid"...

Agreed. However it's better than cachers arguing with each other and with reviewers about whether a challenge is fair, or why one is published but theirs is denied, or appeals about logging, and all that other cache-related drama.  A souvenir is in-house; one internal source to make decisions, one source from where ideas come. Complaints go there, and since it's not cache-related, there's no prior etiquette - GS sets the tone and ethic for souvenirs, and it's easier to deal with 'complaints' (or, suggestions).  Not perfect, but more manageable. And simpler than Geocaching Challenges (mainly because they're only made in-house)

Not sure I agree that it would be better or more manageable.  I thought that the cache-related drama surrounding challenge caches was already reduced considerably post-moratorium.  If someone complains about why their challenge doesn't get accepted, then there are guidelines that can be referenced (challenge checker, rule #X in the CC guidelines, etc).  And there is the simple 'the challenge you're copying was published before the current guidelines were implemented' statement to quash complaints about why a CO's challenge won't be published, even though they saw the same challenge published (years ago) somewhere else.

 

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Quote

There have already been complaints about how some countries don't yet have souvenirs, so I don't see how 'accomplishment' souvenirs would be an attractive use of time.

I'd chalk that up to the fact that there's a finite number of countries, and not every country has a souvenir yet; so there's a reasonable cause for people to make requests for a souvenir. It's an incomplete system. There'd certainly be suggestions for souvenirs based on statistical accomplishments, but that's a theoretically limitless set of possibilities. If GS does take suggestions, they can set the terms for how/when they implement new souvenirs. Very different than caches.

Cachers are already complaining that country souvenirs aren't being released fast enough. I think it will only be worse if 'accomplishments' become souvenirs. At least with countries, there is a limit to how many different requests GS will receive, since there are only so many counties. With 'accomplishments', there are so many different requests that GS will be flooded with requests.  And if a cacher's request isn't granted, then there will be complaints about how GS created a souvenir for A, but not for B. I really don't see any benefit.

 

2 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Again, not that I'm advocating all of this, just exploring how souvenirs could potentially be used to address (even if not fully solve) the time-limited challenge type of accomplishment/reward system that's been lost from old challenges.

So, you're saying that souvenirs would address/solve the issue with 'time-limited' challenges?

[+thebruce0]

6 minutes ago, noncentric said:

Well, I wouldn't consider BadgeGen badges to be something 'you can make up yourself for whatever you want to brag about'.  There is a finite set of badges, with badge requirements established by the website.  It is, in some ways, official - especially since it ties into PGC, which has a more 'official' presence since it's association with challenge caches.

If you're talking about the graphics that some cachers have on their profile to 'brag about' certain series or events or other things, I've never been a fan of those, then yes.

I'm talking about anything not official. Anything presented by HTML that's plopped into your custom profile content. Anything that is entirely arbitrary.

7 minutes ago, noncentric said:

Not sure I agree that it would be better or more manageable.  I thought that the cache-related drama surrounding challenge caches was already reduced considerably post-moratorium. (1)  If someone complains about why their challenge doesn't get accepted, then there are guidelines that can be referenced (challenge checker, rule #X in the CC guidelines, etc).  And there is the simple 'the challenge you're copying was published before the current guidelines were implemented' statement to quash complaints about why a CO's challenge won't be published, even though they saw the same challenge published (years ago) somewhere else. (2)

1. It seems to have been. But the souvenirs aren't touching what challenge caches do. I meant more manageable in regards to challenge types that are no longer allowed as challenge caches.

2. Yep. And souvenirs are 100% self-contained, created, managed, edited, owned by GS themselves. Challenges caches are owned by community, reviewed by volunteers, hosted by GS, needing guidelines everyone is intended to follow, outside the walls of HQ.  To me, souvenirs are much more manageable than the challenge cache concept as a whole, so especially for challenge types that are no longer allowed.

11 minutes ago, noncentric said:

Cachers are already complaining that country souvenirs aren't being released fast enough. I think it will only be worse if 'accomplishments' become souvenirs.

Again, country souvenirs are a matter of filling up a 'set' of all countries around the world. There's a limited number of countries, and everyone knows which have souvenirs and which don't, so the question is consistently pushed - why doesn't mine have one yet?  Once all have souvenirs, the point is moot.  Challenges are boundless. Scope will grow as experience and career lengths grow for the entire community, while there will also always be newcomers. Country souvenirs is like an unfinished project which is bound to gain complaints for being slow while incomplete. But if GS controls everything about challenge-style souvenirs, they set the pace for however and whenever they wish create new ones. They could take suggestions, or not. Of course people will offer ideas, or just complain, but there's no foundation for the argument other than "but I'm impatient or feel my ideas are more important", as opposed to "not every country has a souvenir yet".

Now if GS actually said from the beginning that not every country would get a souvenir, or they laid the ground rules about how country souvenirs would be created (like say countries 'earning' their souvenir by having X active geocaches, or N active geocachers, or whatever) then it'd be different I think. But as it stands, I don't see country souvenirs in the same class of goal concepts as challenge souvenirs for time-bounded type challenge tasks that are no longer allowed as Challenge Caches. Thus, I see potential in using souvenirs to award challenge accomplishments and time-based challenges in the future.

I'd still prefer they be allowed as challenge caches, but my preference is just one tiny little voice

[+thebruce0]

22 minutes ago, noncentric said:

So, you're saying that souvenirs would address/solve the issue with 'time-limited' challenges?

Solve? No. Address? Somewhat.  It's a blank canvas. The only problem that would still remain is the find-once nature of caches, if those are what qualify for such challenges.  As souvenirs, people wouldn't complain about not being able to log a cache they found just because they don't qualify yet. Sure, they might complain about not getting the souvenir, but at least it wouldn't be between cachers and rising community drama. It wouldn't have reviewers judging whether COs challenges were 'reasonable' or not.

If you want the souvenir, you've got to earn it fair and square. It's not arbitrary, it's not custom, it's automated by your stats. It's not a smiley that increases your find count. It wouldn't solve cheating (some people would still couch-log, for instance). Time-limited challenges wouldn't be equally easy/difficult for veterans and newcomers as long as caches can only be logged once. Having tiered challenges gives a bit of leeway for that range of ability; broze/silver/gold for example.  Yes it would be effectively automating and officializing custom badges that many 3rd party websites have been providing for years. I don't see a problem with that. It would be GS's decision whether to offer that feature and potentially take activity away from the harmless alternate websites that may earn revenue from ads on their own sites. But that's all business decisions and community reputation managemtn on their part.  I'm just contemplating the feasibility of the system.

.....while I'd still prefer less stringent challenge cache guidelines.

[+dprovan]

34 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

2. Yep. And souvenirs are 100% self-contained, created, managed, edited, owned by GS themselves. Challenges caches are owned by community, reviewed by volunteers, hosted by GS, needing guidelines everyone is intended to follow, outside the walls of HQ.  To me, souvenirs are much more manageable than the challenge cache concept as a whole, so especially for challenge types that are no longer allowed.

The fact that souvenirs come from GS is actually exactly why I don't in any way consider them a replacement for challenge caches. I like challenge caches because of the interaction with the CO and other cachers. Some other player is challenging me, so I want to meet his challenge, find his cache, and write a log to talk about my success. I could care less about getting a pat on the head from the authorities because I did something they have decided is worthy.

[+egroeg]

Overheard at a recent event:

 

"I'm thinking about starting a Facebook page for banned kinds of challenges. Someone can post a challenge, and then anyone who completes it can add a comment about how they did it.  All the challenges would stay open for more comments.  You could post from wherever in the world, too.  I just have to figure out a way to make the list searchable.  Sure, you don't get a smiley, but it's the closest I can think of to the spirit of free-wheelin challenges and you still get bragging rights in your post.  And if people want to make it a competition, there could be a roster of who has completed the most, but that s#% don't matter to me. "

 

[+thebruce0]

5 hours ago, dprovan said:

The fact that souvenirs come from GS is actually exactly why I don't in any way consider them a replacement for challenge caches. I like challenge caches because of the interaction with the CO and other cachers. Some other player is challenging me, so I want to meet his challenge, find his cache, and write a log to talk about my success. I could care less about getting a pat on the head from the authorities because I did something they have decided is worthy.

Note I never said they were a replacement for challenge caches. I only said they help address some of what was lost with the more stringent rules by providing the ability to have time-based challenges and whatnot.  They're definitely not a replacement. Otherwise I wouldn't still prefer to have challenge caches as they were.  Your point about the fact that community doesn't create souvenirs is obviously one of the reasons it's not a replacement for challenge caches.

[+dprovan]

15 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Note I never said they were a replacement for challenge caches. I only said they help address some of what was lost with the more stringent rules by providing the ability to have time-based challenges and whatnot.  They're definitely not a replacement. Otherwise I wouldn't still prefer to have challenge caches as they were.  Your point about the fact that community doesn't create souvenirs is obviously one of the reasons it's not a replacement for challenge caches.

It doesn't make much difference to me whether you call it "addressing some of what was lost" or "replacing". My point is that they aren't in any way comparable. Souvenirs do nothing but grant kudos, and it's only people that mistakenly think the point of challenge caches is the kudos who think there's any overlap.

(I'm off topic though: I'm speaking of challenge caches in general, but I don't have an issue with the long standing prohibition against time limiting challenge caches. I'd argue against it, but I accept it and don't miss challenge caches with time limits.)

[+thebruce0]

13 minutes ago, dprovan said:

It doesn't make much difference to me whether you call it "addressing some of what was lost" or "replacing". My point is that they aren't in any way comparable.

YMMV

Quote

Souvenirs do nothing but grant kudos, and it's only people that mistakenly think the point of challenge caches is the kudos who think there's any overlap.

So your opinion against theirs, gotcha.

Wait, that was my point.

There are people who enjoy these goal-oriented souvenirs. So why is their valuing of that type of "challenge" less important or relevant than your opinion that they do not "replace" challenge caches in any way?  I've agreed that they are not a complete replacement of challenge caches.

Once again - whether the reward is the right to gain a smiley, or the reward is a souvenir, the task is the same structure (which is no longer allowed as a challenge cache): As of a certain date, complete a required set of actions for the reward. That is what these souvenirs offer. It is not a complete replacement for now-denied challenge cache ideas and finding them, but it is an effort to provide the experience and a reward of setting out to complete a goal-oriented task, a challenge.

Love it or hate it, irrelevant. That's what they do. Some love it. Some hate it. Some are indifferent.

Quote

(I'm off topic though: I'm speaking of challenge caches in general, but I don't have an issue with the long standing prohibition against time limiting challenge caches. I'd argue against it, but I accept it and don't miss challenge caches with time limits.)

I'm not adamantly against their denial; I'm fine with it, but if they were still allowed, I would still enjoy them.  I'm not gung-ho about these souvenirs, and elsewhere I've advocated for the possibility of 'tiers' for more challenging tasks. Current implementation specifically, imo, is weak, but I recognize the potential for a bigger system, a tighter concept.  Of course, the value is only in the eye of the beholder. Don't like'em? Don't do'em.  If old challenge caches are never coming back, then to me this is a decent concept with good potential to satiate many (not all) people's desire for a time-based challenge/reward experience and side-game.  Even though they don't result in a +1 smiley.

Edited August 16, 2017 by thebruce0

[+dprovan]

3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

There are people who enjoy these goal-oriented souvenirs. So why is their valuing of that type of "challenge" less important or relevant than your opinion that they do not "replace" challenge caches in any way?

I wasn't making any statement about the value of souvenirs. I was just commenting on their relation to challenge caches. Sure, some people might get satisfaction from souvenirs. If it's the same satisfaction they got from challenge caches, then good for them, but I'd say they missed the core value of challenge caches.

It just dawned on me that this is the same issue that causes me to object to many of the changes GS is making. That "core value" of challenge caches I mentioned is all about the connection of me to the local community. Souvenirs are impersonal rewards passed down from a faceless central command. They provide no interaction with any other person. They don't even have the local anchor of the challenge cache's physical container.

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, dprovan said:

I wasn't making any statement about the value of souvenirs. I was just commenting on their relation to challenge caches. Sure, some people might get satisfaction from souvenirs. If it's the same satisfaction they got from challenge caches, then good for them, but I'd say they missed the core value of challenge caches.

It just dawned on me that this is the same issue that causes me to object to many of the changes GS is making. That "core value" of challenge caches I mentioned is all about the connection of me to the local community. Souvenirs are impersonal rewards passed down from a faceless central command. They provide no interaction with any other person. They don't even have the local anchor of the challenge cache's physical container.

I agree. And that falls under "not a replacement". I was only ever stating that they provide time-limited challenges with a reward, and time-limited challenges are no longer allowed as Challenge Cache ALRs for the smiley reward. They attempt to address what has been lost in challenge caches by providing that type of challenge, but with the reward of a souvenir. That's it.

[+TerraViators]

This may be controversial and met with disdain or, at the very least, meh, but saying time-based challenges are silly is also silly.  Many folks don't like LPCs but GS hasn't banned them because they may be silly.  After all, when boiled down, it's a hobby.  Isn't finding a box in the woods as silly as a time-based challenge?