+RufusClupea Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) I notice in the Waypoint License Agreement that when we're done with PQ data, we're required to return it to Groundspeak. "Upon termination of this Agreement in either instance, Licensee shall then return to Groundspeak the Data and Related Materials." I've seen no mention of this in the forums; how is it accomplished? Edited August 4, 2017 by RufusClupea Quote Link to comment
+RufusClupea Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 5 hours ago, on4bam said: I can hear Cousin Vinnie responding incredulously, "You were serious about that?" As I've said previously, I'm prolly one of the 1% that actually reads the pages of legal gibberish before clicking the "I accept" button. In some instances, checking the box and clicking the acceptance has been construed the same as signing a legal document. Would you sign one without reading it? Astoundingly, many people do. I don't. Quote Link to comment
+hzoi Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 6 hours ago, RufusClupea said: I notice in the Waypoint License Agreement that when we're done with PQ data, we're required to return it to Groundspeak. "Upon termination of this Agreement in either instance, Licensee shall then return to Groundspeak the Data and Related Materials." I've seen no mention of this in the forums; how is it accomplished? This wouldn't be triggered when you're "done with the data" -- it's in the case that the license is terminated, such as if a player was banned from geocaching and their membership was revoked. Even then, I doubt Groundspeak would do anything to enforce actually returning the data -- but they'd have a claim against the former member if that person tried selling or otherwise exploiting the data in the PQ for their own financial gain. 1 Quote Link to comment
+on4bam Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 48 minutes ago, RufusClupea said: I can hear Cousin Vinnie responding incredulously, "You were serious about that?" As I've said previously, I'm prolly one of the 1% that actually reads the pages of legal gibberish before clicking the "I accept" button. In some instances, checking the box and clicking the acceptance has been construed the same as signing a legal document. Would you sign one without reading it? Astoundingly, many people do. I don't. Yes, I also read that stuff but how do you thing GS would be able to enforce it? I doubt they would (in my case) send a repo man to Belgium to get "their" PQ back. Quote Link to comment
+RufusClupea Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 12 minutes ago, hzoi said: This wouldn't be triggered when you're "done with the data" -- it's in the case that the license is terminated, such as if a player was banned from geocaching and their membership was revoked. IANAL, but that's not how I read it. "Term: The license granted by this Agreement shall commence upon Licensee's receipt of the Data and Related Materials and shall continue until such time that (1) Licensee elects to discontinue use of the Data and Related Materials and terminates the Agreement or (2) Groundspeak terminates for Licensee's material breach of this Agreement. Upon termination of this Agreement in either instance, Licensee shall then return to Groundspeak the Data and Related Materials." As a layperson, I interpret that to mean when I'm done using a particular PQ, I have to return it. NOT returning the data could constitute a breach in and of itself. Subsequent/additional PQs would generate subsequent/additional licenses. If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, I'd like to hear/read it from someone at Groundspeak authorized to give a definitive answer. Quote Link to comment
+hzoi Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 I am a lawyer. I'll amend my previous statement to include that the license terminates if one quits geocaching. Perhaps there's a follow-up procedure that's triggered whenever someone comes to the forum to commit "geocide." Quote Link to comment
+RufusClupea Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, on4bam said: Yes, I also read that stuff but how do you thing GS would be able to enforce it? I doubt they would (in my case) send a repo man to Belgium to get "their" PQ back. IANAL, but I don't think they have to. AFAIK, it would depend where burden of proof lies. Quote Link to comment
+on4bam Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 You can always send your "used" PQs to GS. That way you have nothing to worry about On the other hand, sending a file back does not mean you don't have a copy anymore and nothing is said about keeping copies Quote Link to comment
+RufusClupea Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, hzoi said: I am a lawyer. I'll amend my previous statement to include that the license terminates if one quits geocaching. Perhaps there's a follow-up procedure that's triggered whenever someone comes to the forum to commit "geocide." I'm just trying to understand my responsibilities under the contract in order to act in good faith. Quote Link to comment
+RufusClupea Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, on4bam said: You can always send your "used" PQs to GS. That way you have nothing to worry about That's what I was asking about in my OP. What's the official procedure? Quote On the other hand, sending a file back does not mean you don't have a copy anymore and nothing is said about keeping copies Actually, it does (if you comply with what you agreed to), and there is. Edited August 4, 2017 by RufusClupea Quote Link to comment
+skramble Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 When we return our used PQs, what constitutes "reasonable wear and tear"? Is it based on the length of time we used them? Might we expect a bill for damages? 1 Quote Link to comment
+on4bam Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 19 minutes ago, skramble said: When we return our used PQs, what constitutes "reasonable wear and tear"? Is it based on the length of time we used them? Might we expect a bill for damages? Maybe the PQ was already damaged when you got it. It's not like you have to sign off if you received a PQ in perfect order. Quote Link to comment
+RufusClupea Posted August 4, 2017 Author Share Posted August 4, 2017 Forget it. I've sent my question to Groundspeak directly. Quote Link to comment
+skramble Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 17 minutes ago, RufusClupea said: Forget it. I've sent my question to Groundspeak directly. We can't forget it. The peaceful enjoyment of our pleasant pastime has been irrevocably shattered by the threat of impending legal action by the very body we trusted the most with our most personal data. Hm. That's right... it was our data before it got manipulated into those PQs... FREE THE THREE MILLION! Quote Link to comment
+hzoi Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 3 hours ago, RufusClupea said: I'm just trying to understand my responsibilities under the contract in order to act in good faith. I think you can rest assured that, should Groundspeak wish you to return your GPX data, they will contact you with the proper procedure. But if you hear back from Groundspeak, let us know the result of your windmill tilting, Don. Quote Link to comment
+Team DEMP Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Why are you guys beating up this cacher on the question they asked in the How Do I section? If you don't believe his question is sincere or you don't have something productive to respond with, just dont answer. 2 Quote Link to comment
+HHL Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 Yes. Don't feed that troll. Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted August 4, 2017 Share Posted August 4, 2017 6 hours ago, RufusClupea said: As a layperson, I interpret that to mean when I'm done using a particular PQ, I have to return it. NOT returning the data could constitute a breach in and of itself. Subsequent/additional PQs would generate subsequent/additional licenses. . Did you also cancel your premium membership and place your account on inactive status when you finished using a particular PQ? If not, then you haven't discontinued using the service and thus you haven't terminated the waypoint license agreement. Even if you did those things and quit geocaching, would Geocaching HQ come after you for breach of the agreement? Probably not, if they weren't damaged. So, don't download the entire worldwide database of geocaches and post them elsewhere on the internet, OK? 'Cause if you did that, you might hear from someone and they would likely quote the termination provisions. Quote Link to comment
+Kalkendotters Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 12 hours ago, The Leprechauns said: Did you also cancel your premium membership and place your account on inactive status when you finished using a particular PQ? If not, then you haven't discontinued using the service and thus you haven't terminated the waypoint license agreement. That makes it even scarier, because then you have to return ALL your PQ's at the termination of your premium membership. So somehow you have to retain them all, or return them when you are done with each PQ Quote Link to comment
+cheech gang Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 20 hours ago, The Leprechauns said: Did you also cancel your premium membership and place your account on inactive status when you finished using a particular PQ? If not, then you haven't discontinued using the service and thus you haven't terminated the waypoint license agreement. Even if you did those things and quit geocaching, would Geocaching HQ come after you for breach of the agreement? Probably not, if they weren't damaged. So, don't download the entire worldwide database of geocaches and post them elsewhere on the internet, OK? 'Cause if you did that, you might hear from someone and they would likely quote the termination provisions. Would it suffice if I just send them all to Keystone? Quote Link to comment
+hzoi Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 On 8/5/2017 at 0:35 PM, cheech gang said: Would it suffice if I just send them all to Keystone? Sounds legit. Quote Link to comment
+on4bam Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 You could print them and ship them to Seattle. BTW, did RufusClupea get a reply from GS yet? Quote Link to comment
+Sherminator18 Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) I'm wondering.. how exactly do you return either an unused or a used Pocket Query? Edited September 7, 2017 by Sherminator18 Quote Link to comment
+thebruce0 Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 The terminology is fundamentally flawed. You can't "return" digital data (PQs) since it's not physical. The data has already been copied into your possession. If your data is identical or contained within their, then your action is no different than merely deleting your copy of the data. If GS has lost some data that you've previously copied, then you could send a copy back (it's impossible to "return" that data unless you provide the only physical media on which it resides, in which case that's not their property and they'd need to return that to you). So, if that's the intended wording, I'd interpret it... 1. If you now have data you received from them which they no longer have, you need to provide it for them once again. 2. Any data you have that you received from them you must effectively 'remove' in that it can't be used any further beyond your possession (ie another entity would then have a copy); effectively delete and wipe. But legally I don't think the wording matches the spirit of those points... But it is humorous that they used wording implying that digital data can be reasonably "returned". Quote Link to comment
+Sherminator18 Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Sherminator18 said: I'm wondering.. how exactly do you return either an unused or a used Pocket Query? This was a sarcastic comment, if that was unclear to anyone. Quote Link to comment
+Team Christiansen Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 14 minutes ago, Sherminator18 said: This was a sarcastic comment, if that was unclear to anyone. I'm sure all the posters in this thread understand that, but it is still a fun discussion nontheless. Quote Link to comment
+Sherminator18 Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Sarcasm, at times, does not come across well in only text Quote Link to comment
+cheech gang Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 I simply place mine in a manila envelope addressed "return to sender" and let the post office figure it out. Quote Link to comment
+BCandMsKitty Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) I guess I'm in real trouble. I never keep my PQs after I've used them, but simply delete the file Edited September 8, 2017 by BC & MsKitty Quote Link to comment
+The A-Team Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 5 hours ago, BC & MsKitty said: I guess I'm in real trouble. I never keep my PQs after I've used them, but simply delete the file You shouldn't have said anything. Now that Groundspeak knows what you did, I bet you'll get a visit from the PQ auditors and you'll have some 'splainin to do. Quote Link to comment
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