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ripraff

Chapels in cemeteries

138 posts in this topic

Just found a nice chapel by a known architect, and the only thing I could see was dated building.

They are out of fashion? I would suggest religious multifarious, but it is hard to see if they are still used, and a lot may be historic. They are generally nondenominational, except maybe a catholic cemetery, do the accept mortuary chapels?

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Posted (edited)

ripraff, the RBM (Religious Buildings Multifarious) would not accept these types of structures as they do not hold regular worship services to just name one reason. 

 

Not to sure what is meant as a "chapel". If you could post an example of the one you found, this would be helpful. 

 

You could look at  Outdoor Altars

 

Edited by BK-Hunters
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Hmmmm...

Sounds a lot like the flip side of Churchyard Cemeteries, no?

Pretty much all of the churches/chapels we've encountered associated with cemeteries have found themselves a category.

Check these.

Keith

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http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMW70R_1879_Mortuary_Chapel_Oakwood_Cemetery_Syracuse_NY

The Mortuary Chapel at Oakwood Cemetery was built by renown architect Joseph Lyman Silsbee. "He has gone down in the history books because... In 1887, he was the first Chicago architect to give young Frank Lloyd Wright a job." "The chapel is part of a large historic non-sectarian rural cemetery, Oakwood Cemetery, in the city of Syracuse."

The buildings were never churches and wouldn't fit into the churchyard cemeteries. The one above doesn't even have graves near it. It is now woods. 

Mortuary chapels are usually small buildings used to store or prepare the dead, perhaps have services. They are mostly replaced by funeral homes now. 

Here is another with a date and gateway arch http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMT7TV_1893_Trumansburg_NY

I have seen other chapels in cemeteries. Sometimes their photos get thrown into the cemetery waymark, sometimes not. Many of them are interesting.

 

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33 minutes ago, BK-Hunters said:

Perhaps this would be a more appropriate category: Charnel Chapels, Charnel Houses and Ossuaries

No, I don't think so. I am the leader and founder of said category and I am quite familiar with this subject. I seriously doubt that any cemetery chapel in the US would qualify, except for maybe a handful in areas formerly under Spanish rule.

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3 hours ago, BK-Hunters said:

Perhaps this would be a more appropriate category: Charnel Chapels, Charnel Houses and Ossuaries

Possibly except the fact that this Charnel Chapels, Charnel Houses and Ossuaries category would require that there be remains buried in the chapel.  Here in Kansas City (okay, Merriam, but no one knows where Merriam, Kansas, is) there is a very small cemetery from the 1870's that has a small chapel - no burials took place within so it isn't a Charnel Chapel.  The only problem would be to not overlap with Churchyard Cemeteries - these would be a separate creature...  my two cents... might be an interesting topic to pursue.

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Posted (edited)

There is a difference between church and chapel. So, there _should_ be no overlap with the churchyard cemeteries. Besides, the churchyard cemteries is about the cemeteries, while the possibly new chapel on cemetery category is about the chapels, right?

Edited by PISA-caching
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Chapel in a cemetery, or attached to a building (e.g. a hospital), where coffined bodies briefly lie before disposal.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, ripraff said:

Chapel in a cemetery, or attached to a building (e.g. a hospital), where coffined bodies briefly lie before disposal.

I don't think there is a single word or shorter phrase in the English language but your phrase is well stated.  Is there a more concise phrase that we can borrow from another language for the title of the potential category?  'Charnel chapel' will not suffice because 'coffined bodies' do not lie there 'briefly' 'before' disposal.

Edited by elyob
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This does sound interesting to me.

In a churchyard cemetery, the cemetery is there because the church is there.

In a cemetery chapel, the chapel is there because the cemetery is there.

The church in a churchyard cemetery holds services that everyone looks forward to.

For a cemetery chapel, folks are there for quite a different situation.

As long as the requirements state, somehow, that these chapels are only associated with funeral situations, there should be no overlap with churches.

If this continues to fruition, I'm looking forward to joining the group, at least as a regular member.  (In fact, I'm dying to join?)  Anything cemetery is interesting to me.  I haunt them regularly.

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2 minutes ago, MountainWoods said:

This does sound interesting to me.

In a churchyard cemetery, the cemetery is there because the church is there.

In a cemetery chapel, the chapel is there because the cemetery is there.

The church in a churchyard cemetery holds services that everyone looks forward to.

For a cemetery chapel, folks are there for quite a different situation.

As long as the requirements state, somehow, that these chapels are only associated with funeral situations, there should be no overlap with churches.

If this continues to fruition, I'm looking forward to joining the group, at least as a regular member.  (In fact, I'm dying to join?)  Anything cemetery is interesting to me.  I haunt them regularly.

As always, well stated!

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3 hours ago, BK-Hunters said:

 

Interesting Finds!

 

In my opinion, these are borderline approvals. I don't think cemetery chapels are waychapels.

 

In my area, there are a lot of both, and they are very different. If was an officer in that group I would not accept them. 

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I think they only accepted them, because there is no other category that would suit these chapels better. I would appriciate a category for cemetery chapels. We have several of these in my area.

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Posted (edited)

Here is my thought on a preliminary category description.   Thanks to the Churchyard Cemeteries category as a template.  Lemme know what everyone thinks.  BTW, this is still ripraff's idea, all I am doing is trying to move the ball down the field.  I sent a message to ripraff asking if he was going to go ahead and start a group for this category.
 

Description:
Identify chapels within the property area of a cemetery.  These chapels provide a place for families to gather at the cemetery, out of the weather, to say goodbye to their loved ones.   

Expanded Description:
Many cemeteries have a chapel where families gather to pay last respects to the deceased.  These chapels can be be simple country affairs to quite elaborate.  The purpose of this category is to identify these chapels.

To qualify, these chapels must be on cemetery property.  They must not hold regular church services.  They also must be free-standing buildings not attached to funeral homes.  They also must not permanently contain remains of deceased individuals and must be able to be used multiple times. These also need to be permanent, fully-enclosed structures - no canopies or pavilions will be allowed.  Temporary Crypts used to hold the deceased before burial are not allowed.

NOTE: Funeral Homes (defined as businesses that prepare bodies for burial, inurnment, or cremation) with Funerary Chapel attached located in a cemetery will be denied, however, should the Chapel be attached to a Cemetery Office, these will be approved.  Questions should be directed to an Officer prior to submission.  

The following have their own category.  Submissions that are deemed needing to go to the other category will be referred to the other category and the Cemetery Chapel waymark denied.

-Mausoleums
-Churchyard Cemeteries
-Funeral Homes
-Waychapels
-Outdoor Altars
 
 Instructions for Posting a Cemetery Chapel Waymark:


1. COORDINATES must be obtained by a personal visit to the site and should be taken at the entrance of the chapel, if possible, or to the entrance to the church or churchyard. 

2. PHOTOS: Please read carefully the photo requirements as they are more extensive than usual. In order to document the status of the cemetery chapel and to add a little more value to this waymark category, the following THREE specific photos are required:
-Photo of the entire Cemetery Chapel building.
-Reference area photo of the Chapel and the cemetery.
-Photo of signage either on the Chapel and/or of the Cemetery - this third photo will be waived should no signage exist for the cemetery or the chapel.


NOTE: These are the minimum requirements. If one of these elements is not obtainable, exceptions will be made as long as an explanation is provided. There is some flexibility here as long as the chapel waymark is well presented. Additional photos of interest are encouraged. 

3. DESCRIPTION: Provide as much information and history as possible. Dates, historical significance, current status, etc. of the Chapel and of the Cemetery.  A long description is required. 

4. WAYMARK NAME FORMAT: The name of the waymark MUST follow this format: Name of Cemetery Chapel - City, State/Province If it is not within a city or town, the please use another regional designation such as county, borough - whatever best identifies the location of the Cemetery Chapel.

SPECIAL NOTE: While the details outlined in our category description, and the requirements listed in the posting instructions, cover the MINIMUM elements and standards for all waymarks in this category, each waymark will also be evaluated by a volunteer reviewer for overall quality and appropriateness. If a reviewer deems that there are deficiencies in some aspect of the waymark, the waymark may be either declined or accepted with request for changes and/or additions in either content or format.

Each waymark will be evaluated on its own merits. We will endeavor to be reasonable and flexible while maintaining the quality standards for the category. If there is a disagreement, try to work it out with the evaluating officer, or appeal to the group leader, but we reserve the right to accept or decline a waymark based on our best judgement.

LANGUAGE NOTE: We recognize Waymarking as a global hobby and welcome waymarks from all countries. Because of our international scope, we also acknowledge ENGLISH as our lingua franca. English will create the highest level of accessibility globally. All waymarks must have at least a short description in ENGLISH. We encourage bilingual and multilingual waymarks, but one of the languages must be English. We have volunteer translators to help.

Relying on software or internet based translators, such as Babylon and Google Translate, may NOT yield accurate translations that are intelligible. Use these only when there is no alternative. Although we do not expect grammatical perfection, a waymark may be declined if there the English language is not understandable.

Instructions for Visiting a Waymark in this Category:
VISIT LOGS 

1. The waymark coordinates must be personally visited.
2. Give the date and a description of your visit.
3. Post at least one photo taken at the time of your visit.


Variables:
-Date of Construction of the Chapel.
-Denomination of Chapel.

-Still in Use? (Yes/No/Don't Know)

Edited by iconions
additional info
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This looks great.  RE: the required photos -- Can one photo be used to satisfy all 3 requirements?  I can easily see where 1 or 2 photos can meet all 3 requirements.  That is, it is the content of the photo(s) that need to meet the requirements, not the number of photos.  Right?  If so, you might want to say so.  Ditto if not. ;)

Great to see this going forward thus far.  Thanks ripraff and Mr. Onions.

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2 minutes ago, MountainWoods said:

This looks great.  RE: the required photos -- Can one photo be used to satisfy all 3 requirements?  I can easily see where 1 or 2 photos can meet all 3 requirements.  That is, it is the content of the photo(s) that need to meet the requirements, not the number of photos.  Right?  If so, you might want to say so.  Ditto if not. ;)

Great to see this going forward thus far.  Thanks ripraff and Mr. Onions.
 

 

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Just now, iconions said:

 

Merci beaucoup for the ideas, Mr. Swan.  I have added them to the description above.  I would prefer separate photos as getting all three elements in one photo could get clunky.

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I hope the third picture requirement is not too rigorous. I know dozens of cemetery chapels, but I have never seen one with a signage. The same with cemeteries, they do not have signs where I live, neither in the two neighboring countries I regularly visit. After all, this is not going to be a sign category.

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4 minutes ago, fi67 said:

I hope the third picture requirement is not too rigorous. I know dozens of cemetery chapels, but I have never seen one with a signage. The same with cemeteries, they do not have signs where I live, neither in the two neighboring countries I regularly visit. After all, this is not going to be a sign category.

I added a note.  Thanks for the feedback.

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Do you want to include the Waychapel category in the list for the denied or should we expect some cross-posting there, such as the aforementioned examples?

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3 minutes ago, elyob said:

Do you want to include the Waychapel category in the list for the denied or should we expect some cross-posting there, such as the aforementioned examples?

I am not that familiar with the European Waychapel - just from reading those waychapets serve a different function and aren't in cemeteries.  I added it, though, just the same - one never knows.  Thanks for the feedback!

 

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I'm not sure, but will the new category only allow cemetery chapels that are still in use, or also those that are just standing there, but are not used anymore? "Still in use?" (Yes/No/Don't know) might be a valueable variable.

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:

I'm not sure, but will the new category only allow cemetery chapels that are still in use, or also those that are just standing there, but are not used anymore? "Still in use?" (Yes/No/Don't know) might be a valueable variable.

Perfect - thanks!
There is a "Chapel" at Mount Washington Cemetery in Independence, Missouri that is the burial place of the first publisher of the Kansas City Star.  He is buried within, so it would actually be a mausoleum.  This is the reason for my comment for permanent housing of remains.  I do like the idea for that variable, though, to give the poster one more thing to think about...
I have a perfect example of what I envision - I may drive over there today and get the pictures.

 

Edited by iconions
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Sorry I didn't get the email, must be in my husband's mail, he gets the geocaching mail. I'll ask when he gets home. The statements are well written. I am willing to share in setting it up. I only wanted a place to put the interesting buildings  I have found. I am not sure from researching whether they are principally for temporary storage or for services. The may be either or both. They are an interesting cross between chapels and funeral home, which do both temporary storage and services. We don't want to have to figure out whether the are still in use, they may not be mentioned in a cemetery website. Also the example I gave is no longer in use. These may have been a Victorian thing when they went to "rural cemeteries". In reading cemeteries in wikipedia there seems to have been an historic progression from churchyard graves to municipal cemeteries, to rural cemeteries, to lawn cemeteries to...?  I have seen names on the buildings, but not separate signs other than the cemetery sign, which may or may not exist. We might want to distinguish a chapel from cemetery buildings that are of the toolshed variety. 

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I was more thinking of chapels that had been used many times, but are no longer used because - for example - they erected a bigger one or because it is in bad condition.

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I though about a more general chapel category. Hospital and airport chapels for instance are specifically excluded. They are not even wayside chapels. If an inclusive chapel category existed it could include wayside, cemetery, airport, hospital...That would mean expanding the existing category. 

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Administrative buildings may also be in cemeteries. The house like building in Trumansberg could have been either a chapel or an administrative building. It might be difficult to judge. 

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Old Victorian style buildings in cemeteries are interesting, but trying to include all would be a bit vague. "Interesting cemetery Buildings"?

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Would the category be under buildings or under cemeteries? If it is buildings is is religious or just under buildings? Putting it in cemeteries emphasizes that it is cemetery buildings we are after, but it is not a final resting place.  Structures, Waymarking Multifarious? I am thinking Buildings but not religious. What do you think?

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3 minutes ago, ripraff said:

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMV0KN_Altar_St_John_Ukrainian_Orthodox_Cemetery_Johnson_City_New_York

 

This outdoor altar in a cemetery is borderline? It could be considered a chapel. It is partially enclosed. Would it be a crossover case or excluded or accepted?

 

4 minutes ago, ripraff said:

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMV0KN_Altar_St_John_Ukrainian_Orthodox_Cemetery_Johnson_City_New_York

 

This outdoor altar in a cemetery is borderline? It could be considered a chapel. It is partially enclosed. Would it be a crossover case or excluded or accepted?

1st. - I sent you an email.  Did you get it?  You REALLY had a great idea for a category and I thought I'd go ahead and keep the ball rolling.  My goal was to generate discussion and to flesh out your idea, and hopefully get it into a new category.  It's getting a great response.  The above is only an idea from me - if you want to scrap it, use it, or whatever.  Let me know what the next steps are.

2nd. - I would hope not to duplicate other categories as far as the ceremonial aspect of the burial - sure, there is going to be the Waymarking of the cemetery itself, I picture a stand-alone building with no other functionality.  Many funeral homes are on cemetery property and have a chapel.  Not what I would picture.

 

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6 minutes ago, ripraff said:

Would the category be under buildings or under cemeteries? If it is buildings is is religious or just under buildings? Putting it in cemeteries emphasizes that it is cemetery buildings we are after, but it is not a final resting place.  Structures, Waymarking Multifarious? I am thinking Buildings but not religious. What do you think?

That would be my guess.  A funeral doesn't necessarily mean religious.  It should not go under final resting places, or monuments as that isn't the purpose.  Buildings would be about the best. 

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Posted (edited)

I can't think of a funeral home in a cemetery that I have seen. Funeral homes are generally private, cemeteries public or religious. But, I suppose if a funeral home had a cemetery, that might get tricky. Also I would not exclude cemetery buildings that combined administrative, temporary storage and chapel, as long as the chapel is evident. I am biased toward multi-listing in the case of boundary conditions. That is a personal preference since multilisting has become a challenge for me.

Edited by ripraff
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Sorry, but I don't quite get that. A chapel is always a building, that was initailly built for religious People, no? Even if it serves as a funeral hall from time to time for people who are not believers, it's still a religious building (at least in my humble opinion). I also know funeral halls, that are used like chapels, but their architecture is quite different. I would go for Religious buildings unless you also want to include funeral halls.

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13 minutes ago, ripraff said:

I can't think of a funeral home in a cemetery that I have seen. Funeral homes are generally private, cemeteries public or religious. But, I suppose if a funeral home had a cemetery, that might get tricky. Also I would not exclude cemetery buildings that combined administrative, temporary storage and chapel, as long as the chapel is evident. I am biased toward multi-listing in the case of boundary conditions. That is a personal preference since multilisting has become a challenge for me.

Olathe Memorial Cemetery.  The left side is the chapel that is no longer in use, but still in existence, the right side is now the business office.  I've actually got a waymark on this on the Contributing Buildings - http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WMVVVP_Shelter_House_Chapel_Olathe_Cemetery_Olathe_Ks

My thought would be I would NOT be able to claim it as it has other functionality with it.  I'm okay with being able to claim as long as it deals with cemetery functions - there are several cemeteries here in Kansas City that actually do have Funeral Homes on the cemetery grounds - those would be definitely excluded.  Thoughts?  I'm trying to remember the four things for a new category.

DSCN6174.JPG

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1 hour ago, ripraff said:

Old Victorian style buildings in cemeteries are interesting, but trying to include all would be a bit vague. "Interesting cemetery Buildings"?

Depending on the architecture involved, those can go under Victorian Houses (commercial property is allowed in that category - I've posted several)

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21 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:

Sorry, but I don't quite get that. A chapel is always a building, that was initailly built for religious People, no? Even if it serves as a funeral hall from time to time for people who are not believers, it's still a religious building (at least in my humble opinion). I also know funeral halls, that are used like chapels, but their architecture is quite different. I would go for Religious buildings unless you also want to include funeral halls.

My thought would be a permanent building, on Cemetery Grounds, used for the purposes of holding funerals.  I would agree that usually that would be a religious type building, however, not necessarily.  I see most of these being very old - my example above from the '30's being a new one.  A lot of cemeteries either will not have these buildings OR also use the space to bury bodies, which wouldn't be in the scope of this category.  I can definitely provide examples just in the Kansas City area.

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I like the examples in the description of yes, no with photos. I like your chapel and would definitely want it included. We can exclude my borderline example by adding enclosed. It is still open although enclosed on most sides. It might serve as an example either way.

I was thinking a possibility would be to have a chapel subcategory that included way chapels, cemetery chapels and public chapels in public buildings such as airports and hospitals. 

Religious is a term that could be interpreted in a broad sense or narrow. Most churches have regular services and may belong to a denomination. Chapels on the other hand may have individuals using them for comfort or meditation that may or may not be regarded as religious. People who see themselves as religious would see them as religious buildings. People who don't strongly identify with a religious group may still see them as a place of respite, like in a hospital or airport. 

Funerals are for friends and relatives possibly of different religious inclinations. They are for honoring the dead and comforting family. A funeral service may be religious or not. A service in a church would be religious. A service in a funeral home may or may not be depending on the family. I don't know about cemetery chapels. If they were Victorian, the Victorians were into funeral pomp. Was that religious? 

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I don't know about groups, yes please start one Onion.

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4 minutes ago, ripraff said:

I like the examples in the description of yes, no with photos. I like your chapel and would definitely want it included. We can exclude my borderline example by adding enclosed. It is still open although enclosed on most sides. It might serve as an example either way.

I was thinking a possibility would be to have a chapel subcategory that included way chapels, cemetery chapels and public chapels in public buildings such as airports and hospitals. 

Religious is a term that could be interpreted in a broad sense or narrow. Most churches have regular services and may belong to a denomination. Chapels on the other hand may have individuals using them for comfort or meditation that may or may not be regarded as religious. People who see themselves as religious would see them as religious buildings. People who don't strongly identify with a religious group may still see them as a place of respite, like in a hospital or airport. 

Funerals are for friends and relatives possibly of different religious inclinations. They are for honoring the dead and comforting family. A funeral service may be religious or not. A service in a church would be religious. A service in a funeral home may or may not be depending on the family. I don't know about cemetery chapels. If they were Victorian, the Victorians were into funeral pomp. Was that religious? 

Way Chapels are already a category, I don't know about public chapels - those would bring up a WHOLE 'nuther set of challenges.

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My preference would try to be inclusive as possible without being redundant. Chapel should be indicated by name or structure or information available that indicates chapel like use.

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The group is created. 

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Found the group and joined. Now what? You have already started a description. Somehow we get it voted on? Discuss it more? Provide examples of yes it is, no it isn't?

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8 minutes ago, ripraff said:

Found the group and joined. Now what? You have already started a description. Somehow we get it voted on? Discuss it more? Provide examples of yes it is, no it isn't?

Thanks for the update - I just made you an officer in the group.  See if you can go into "Groups I Manage and see if you have a link that reads "Cemetery Chapels".  Once there, see if you have another link that reads "Cemetery Chapels and see if the category comes up - look at it and see if it looks okay so far...  It should be the same EXCEPT for one variable I added.

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There are a couple spelling, wording suggestions. 

 "inurnment" internment? in Funeral Home definition.

coordinates: "entrance to the church or churchyard.", entrance to the chapel or cemetery?

  • Category is not visible in the directory? Why not? Does this mean the category list?

 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, ripraff said:

There are a couple spelling, wording suggestions. 

 "inurnment" internment? in Funeral Home definition.

coordinates: "entrance to the church or churchyard.", entrance to the chapel or cemetery?

  • Category is not visible in the directory? Why not? Does this mean the category list?

 

Burial would be interment, which is burial of a full body - inurnment in actually the burial of the cremated ashed and urn.  I'd like to keep inurnment, also, because it is one more closed loophole.
I must have missed that piece in my copy/paste - good catch and it has been updated.
Category will not be visible for a bit - we've got three more steps to go through, before it will be visible.  

Edited by iconions
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I see chapel, but it still says churchyard. Cemetery helps distinguish us from the other category. 

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