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"Spoiling" Caches


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My next discussion has to do with those "epic," multi-stage caches that involve a lot of time and puzzle-solving to complete. For what it's worth, I tend to stay away from these, but I know some people who enjoy them and I find there's a certain attitude towards them that I somewhat disagree with. There seems to be a school of thought that it's completely and utterly wrong to tell people even the slightest detail about these caches in advance. How many stages is it? Roughly how long will it take? What type of major obstacles might you encounter? According to some, if you discuss any of this you've completely ruined the experience for the next person.

 

I tend to be a very practical person, who likes to plan things out before I do them. I also hate beyond words having my time wasted. So, for starters, I would not be too agreeable to going out with no clue how long it might take. 4 hours? 8 hours? 14 hours? Give me something so I know whether or not I can make plans for later.

 

But more importantly, I can't agree that every single element needs to be a surprise, especially considering that these typically take many hours and you never know what you might be totally unprepared for. Imagine I spent four hours doing the first few stages, then found I needed to climb a giant tree to get the next stage but was physically unable to do so. Let's just say this would be a completely different kind of "surprise." I've even heard of a night cache where you need to walk through a swamp after dark. You need to be appropriately dressed for this, but nobody will tell you that because it won't be a "surprise." If I spent all that time only to find I needed to come back another day with better equipment, I'd probably leave the hobby altogether.

 

What's everyone else's take on this? I'm genuinely curious -- if you believe in keeping it all a secret, how do you justify the time wasted when people aren't prepared?

Edited by MysteryGuy1
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I have a few caches which have multiple stages. They are not as epic as some, but take 2-3 hours. On my cache pages I say approximately how long I expect it to take (as well as trying to make the D/T ratings "accurate". I won't say exactly how many stages though. I want to give you a good idea what to expect, but leave you wondering exactly when the last stage will come when you are in the field.

 

If we are talking about cachers talking to cachers, I don't mind how much is revealed. I don't really like it if people just share the final coordinates and don't do the stages, but I know that happens too.

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The D/T ratings, cache type, and attributes should give a finder the basics of what they might be in for.

Some are tougher than others, or all caches would be 1.5/1.5...

 

Field puzzles might mean a done day for this dyslexic old fart who may need the other 2/3rds to help solve.

But I headed out thinking it may not be that bad. That's on me, not a cruel CO.

 

If a CO has "surprises" not included in D/T, attributes, hints, or the cache page, then mention could be made in a cache log.

Maybe I'd email that CO, asking for a certain attribute or D/T jump before too many people head out to it.

- Intentional, and maybe a mail to the Reviewer's due instead.

 

A cache I recently gave up on was properly rated, but the completion timeframe the CO mentioned wasn't practical.

- He placed them, so knew where all were, and took him a few days to do it.

Still hasn't changed it yet, and it took that time just to go to the last stage accessed on a day prior, back.

- Ignore...

 

We know of a few tough puzzles, where after the FTF "group" finds it, people are magically able to easily solve it afterwards.

That's not right, and unfair to the CO.

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I'm genuinely curious -- if you believe in keeping it all a secret, how do you justify the time wasted when people aren't prepared?

Some Multis have the info spelled out on the cache page. Some, particularly new or unfound caches, may not have any spoilers. I went out to try for FTF on a multiple stage puzzle cache, where there was no info on how many stages, nor the distance (not even a parking waypoint). I got stuck on the final obscure puzzle, too surreal/fluid/vague for me to figure out. I didn't consider it a waste of time, since I only pick places I want to visit. And I didn't quit Geocaching. :anitongue:

 

For my caches, I of course list proper D/T, but I also try to give an idea of what the deal is. But I may not always do that. I'm thinking of a "Read All The Directions Before Hunting This Cache" kind of cache. It might have a lotta counting fence posts and calculations and bearing projections, and it leads far away. Until the last step where it says "The posted coords are the cache location, so the final direction is 'Ignore The Previous Directions'. I might just do one of those. Don't tempt me. :anicute:

 

It's common to skip Multis. If you can't handle uncertainty, stick to Traditionals. But beware that you can "waste" many hours on some of those, too. :anibad:

Edited by kunarion
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My recommendation: email previous finders or the CO with your concerns. You're more likely to get info this way and it stays out of the public eye. If I went through hell to get a cache and someone seems genuinely concerned, I'd definitely give appropriate warnings if asked. Actually, I'd probably at least hint at the difficulty of certain stages in my log if not explain outright.

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My attitude is that the CO created the experience and shared exactly the information he or she wanted shared.

 

It's his or hers to share or not. If I write something in a log that the CO objects to as a spoiler, I'd be fine with being contacted and being asked to remove it, or having my log deleted as long as I was told why. I'd edit or refile the log, removing the objectionable information.

 

Back in '82, I was waiting for my GF to come out to go to the movies. I never read reviews, and the paper I held had Rex Reed's writeup on "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan"; that night's entertainment.

 

"What the heck," I thought. "If he starts to reveal the plot, I'll just stop."

 

(SPOILER ALERT!) First line of the full-page review: "The only thing you need to know about this movie is that Spock dies."

 

I'm pretty sure the producers didn't want a reviewer to do that.

 

Your question was about 'time wasted' when a cacher isn't prepared. I reject your premise, that it's 'time wasted' if you don't know how many stages make up the multicache. It's a bloody multicache! Expect an extended hunt; that's what they're all about!

 

Someone said that they'd be annoyed if they got several stages in and found an unadvertised tree-climb. Sure - that would annoy me, but what if it was a math-based field puzzle? If I could do math on the fly, it'd be OK, as I would be if I could easily climb trees. You're not SUPPOSED to know the details. If it proves too much for you, then quit looking for it and file a DNF!

 

The guidelines for the 'D' ratings include a component for how long the average hunt should take. The longer it takes, the higher the difficulty. That could very well be the limit of what the CO wants to tell you.

 

The cache experience you get is what the CO gives you. That cache page is the 'problem' you have to solve. To insist that other cachers get information the CO didn't want to hand out is a little arrogant, and not your job.

 

I'd be wary of writing spoilers, because it's not just my definition of 'spoilers' that matters.

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I kind of get where you're coming from. I like putting out multicaches and I enjoy designing them with surprises along the way. But, I like fun surprises. Using a prop or something humorous at a waypoint/final.

 

I wouldn't put out a multi that has you blindly following an unknown number of stages and along the way, you will encounter a stage that you need to know theoretical physics to solve or a death defying climb (mainly because I'm useless at either of those things). If I had something that I would consider difficult or dangerous, I would warn you in the description. I want my caches to be fun, not perilous. But, I've been looking for multicaches that do bring me to something I cannot do. For those, I simply turn and leave. I know I got as far as I'm going to go with that cache and it's ok if I don't end up finishing it.

 

I don't think ill of the CO for putting a cache like that out. I chose to hunt it. Anytime I go looking for a cache, I accept the reality that I may not be able to find it or that I may not be up to the task, be it physically or mentally.

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I tend to be a very practical person, who likes to plan things out before I do them. I also hate beyond words having my time wasted. So, for starters, I would not be too agreeable to going out with no clue how long it might take. 4 hours? 8 hours? 14 hours? Give me something so I know whether or not I can make plans for later.

 

......

 

What's everyone else's take on this? I'm genuinely curious -- if you believe in keeping it all a secret, how do you justify the time wasted when people aren't prepared?

 

I agree. I am a planner too, and always have my 7 year old, and sometimes my 4 year old with me. If it was clear the cache was some sort of open ended adventure with nothing to indicate how many stages or terrain expectations, I'd pass. To be honest we pass on most multis in any case. We do the ones around our home area, really because we've run out of others, and in other areas there is always something else preferable to do.

 

 

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I usually avoid multis unless there's some indication about distance. There are very few caches local to me, so when I head out, is usually a semi long drive and I try to plan before I go.

 

There's a multi not too far from me that the CO says is about a 22 mile drive across 4 stages. I sent mail to a previous finder asking about the towns between start and finish. Knowing this will allow me to load / research caches along the way.

 

Also, I travel 90 miles for my eye dr and try to preload caches along the way. I don't normally have a lot of time for a 10 mile side trip, so I usually try to get details if at all possible.

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To me, as a finder, most memorable caches are the ones I spent a lot of time and efforts on. I don't see it as a waste of effort if I don't complete the stages and can't claim a smiley, even if it's in a remote location which I probably won't be able to revisit, as long as I enjoy the experience. I would still imagine where the OP's feeling came from -- some caches are challenging just to be challenging, and they are rather frustrating.

 

As a CO, I try to rate my hide appropriately, and add appropriate attributes as well. If it is expected to take a lot of time, I'll mention it in the description, as I too am a (wannabe?) planner, or at least understand what such people want to stay happy. If I expect multiple visits, I'll mention it upfront.

 

As a previous finder, I may spoil whoever asks me to spoil, if I don't think the experience is worth the effort.

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I sent mail to a previous finder asking about the towns between start and finish. Knowing this will allow me to load / research caches along the way.

 

Why a previous finder rather than the CO?

 

No particular reason. Sometimes I'll send mail to the CO and other times to a previous finder. Sometimes both.

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I sent mail to a previous finder asking about the towns between start and finish. Knowing this will allow me to load / research caches along the way.

 

Why a previous finder rather than the CO?

 

No particular reason. Sometimes I'll send mail to the CO and other times to a previous finder. Sometimes both.

 

I've had people contact me about caches I've found. I might share truly innocuous info, like whether or not it's actually there or assuring them that the hints are relevant, but I always direct them to the CO.

 

Sometimes they've written back, annoyed that I won't just tell them where it is.

Edited by TeamRabbitRun
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I sent mail to a previous finder asking about the towns between start and finish. Knowing this will allow me to load / research caches along the way.

 

Why a previous finder rather than the CO?

 

No particular reason. Sometimes I'll send mail to the CO and other times to a previous finder. Sometimes both.

 

For me, it depends. If I don't know the CO but I have a friend who found it, I'm more likely to ask the friend - how long did it take you, do you think I could handle it, how hard was the tree climb, etc. As my friend has some idea of my abilities/fitness; and also I know that of my friends. So if Bob did it in 2 hours and thinks I can do it, I probably can in 2.5 hours. If the CO says it takes 2 hours, it doesn't tell me as much if I don't know him/her. (And often COs underestimate the time, as they don't have to search for each stage).

 

If I don't know the CO or any finders, I'll contact the CO.

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I've had people contact me about caches I've found. I might share truly innocuous info, like whether or not it's actually there or assuring them that the hints are relevant, but I always direct them to the CO.

 

Sometimes they've written back, annoyed that I won't just tell them where it is.

+1

When we used to do the phone-a-friend thing, we'd be called often enough it got annoying.

The other 2/3rds would chat with her friends, and during the conversation she'd pretty-much give the cache away.

I'd give a hint if say, most of a multi was completed, but refer them to the CO otherwise.

- Of course they stopped calling me... :D

What made us stop completely was one who didn't want to be bothered with "hints", and calling us almost daily.

- He wanted to move onto the next cache quickly, and now we were "holding him up".

I'm not on, but a few said he lambasted me about it on faceboook.

Add in a couple cachers later similar clinched it.

Sheesh...

I finally made note in a couple caching sites, that I was no longer taking calls for help, mentioned why (and those cachers by name) and only a couple tried since.

Once in a while someone now texts the other 2/3rds (not realizing she hasn't cached in some time), she refers them to me, but they never seem to call. :laughing:

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You haven't gone back to a cache after a DNF?

 

Sure I have. Plenty of times. But I tend to go after caches that take a short span of time to search for. I was talking about caches that take many hours or even full days. You need to set aside large chunks of time to do these, maybe even getting a group together to do it with you, and if you're thrown because of some bizarre obstacle then everybody involved now needs to find another large chunk of time to go back. It's not like going back to a parking lot cache the next day because you didn't have a pair of pliers the first time.

 

Also, I was not aware that some of these difficult caches have attributes that warn you of things like tree climbing and swimming. Still, I'm guessing that some do not because I've known cachers who practically yell at anyone who attempts to warn newbies about these things in advance.

 

Obviously, the CO can make the adventure anything he/she wants, but speaking for myself I'm simply not going to spend long hard hours on something I'm completely unprepared for. If a cache of this nature is designed to be a total mystery, I'll leave it to people who enjoy that aspect of the game.

Edited by MysteryGuy1
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...Also, I was not aware that some of these difficult caches have attributes that warn you of things like tree climbing and swimming. Still, I'm guessing that some do not because I've known cachers who practically yell at anyone who attempts to warn newbies about these things in advance.

We've seen (and done) a few that had multiple attributes, wondering how in heck all those would be possible in a day (4 to 5 terrain mostly).

Some weren't, and we realized that.

One we did, most of the rope work was done from the boat.

We really enjoy that aspect of the hobby. :)

 

We've never experienced anyone intentionally leaving information out on those types of caches, I'd guess maybe for safety.

 

I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

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Personally, I love multies that don't reveal too much. Several times I've had to go back to finish a multi because I didn't have the right equipment or ran out of time. I've been working on one I started 2 years ago and have gone back three times to try to finish it.

 

One of the most memorable multies I did involved around 10 nano bison tubes less than 100 feet from each other. I was hoping from tree to tree, not knowing when I would find the final. As I found more and more nanos, I both laughed and groaned more and more, not knowing when it would end. I was ecstatic when I finally found the final.

 

It is totally up to the CO as too how much information they want to give out. If you have questions, ask them. If you don't want to be bothered, stick to the easy traditionals.

Edited by igator210
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Obviously, the CO can make the adventure anything he/she wants, but speaking for myself I'm simply not going to spend long hard hours on something I'm completely unprepared for. If a cache of this nature is designed to be a total mystery, I'll leave it to people who enjoy that aspect of the game.

 

"Not all caches are for all people."

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I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

 

I wonder how many CO's who've previously invested considerable effort to create adventures for others to experience came up against this sort of attitude and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

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Personally, I love multies that don't reveal too much. Several times I've had to go back to finish a multi because I didn't have the right equipment or ran out of time. I've been working on one I started 2 years ago and have gone back three times to try to finish it.

 

One of the most memorable multies I did involved around 10 nano bison tubes less than 100 feet from each other. I was hoping from tree to tree, not knowing when I would find the final. As I found more and more nanos, I both laughed and groaned more and more, not knowing when it would end. I was ecstatic when I finally found the final.

 

It is totally up to the CO as too how much information they want to give out. If you have questions, ask them. If you don't want to be bothered, stick to the easy traditionals.

 

The specific discussion that inspired me to start this thread involved a CO who would remove any logs from his cache that gave away anything whatsoever about the experience. The person telling the story agreed with this approach totally.

 

I think of it this way. Say it takes you a four-hour trek into the woods to complete the first bunch of stages and then you're physically unable to complete the last stage, which by itself would take you 20 minutes. Now you have to carve out another entire day to make the long trek again just to finish a 20 minute puzzle. That's the part that would frustrate me -- to be so close to the end and have to spend a whole entire day just to finish. From a "time invested" standpoint, it would be like getting through 80% of a Sudoku puzzle and then having someone erase it.

 

This is why I mostly stick to traditionals!

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I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

 

I wonder how many CO's who've previously invested considerable effort to create adventures for others to experience came up against this sort of attitude and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

As one who's experienced harassment by COs over simply viewing their caches, we don't do any PMOs anymore.

When it's happened to you, sure some would have an attitude...

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Personally, I love multies that don't reveal too much. Several times I've had to go back to finish a multi because I didn't have the right equipment or ran out of time. I've been working on one I started 2 years ago and have gone back three times to try to finish it.

 

One of the most memorable multies I did involved around 10 nano bison tubes less than 100 feet from each other. I was hoping from tree to tree, not knowing when I would find the final. As I found more and more nanos, I both laughed and groaned more and more, not knowing when it would end. I was ecstatic when I finally found the final.

 

It is totally up to the CO as too how much information they want to give out. If you have questions, ask them. If you don't want to be bothered, stick to the easy traditionals.

 

The specific discussion that inspired me to start this thread involved a CO who would remove any logs from his cache that gave away anything whatsoever about the experience. The person telling the story agreed with this approach totally.

 

I think of it this way. Say it takes you a four-hour trek into the woods to complete the first bunch of stages and then you're physically unable to complete the last stage, which by itself would take you 20 minutes. Now you have to carve out another entire day to make the long trek again just to finish a 20 minute puzzle. That's the part that would frustrate me -- to be so close to the end and have to spend a whole entire day just to finish. From a "time invested" standpoint, it would be like getting through 80% of a Sudoku puzzle and then having someone erase it.

 

This is why I mostly stick to traditionals!

 

To me this sounds like an excellent and worthwhile cache.

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Personally, I love multies that don't reveal too much. Several times I've had to go back to finish a multi because I didn't have the right equipment or ran out of time. I've been working on one I started 2 years ago and have gone back three times to try to finish it.

 

One of the most memorable multies I did involved around 10 nano bison tubes less than 100 feet from each other. I was hoping from tree to tree, not knowing when I would find the final. As I found more and more nanos, I both laughed and groaned more and more, not knowing when it would end. I was ecstatic when I finally found the final.

 

It is totally up to the CO as too how much information they want to give out. If you have questions, ask them. If you don't want to be bothered, stick to the easy traditionals.

 

The specific discussion that inspired me to start this thread involved a CO who would remove any logs from his cache that gave away anything whatsoever about the experience. The person telling the story agreed with this approach totally.

 

I think of it this way. Say it takes you a four-hour trek into the woods to complete the first bunch of stages and then you're physically unable to complete the last stage, which by itself would take you 20 minutes. Now you have to carve out another entire day to make the long trek again just to finish a 20 minute puzzle. That's the part that would frustrate me -- to be so close to the end and have to spend a whole entire day just to finish. From a "time invested" standpoint, it would be like getting through 80% of a Sudoku puzzle and then having someone erase it.

 

This is why I mostly stick to traditionals!

That sounds like my adventure on GC6T5PZ. The first day a steep hike through thick undergrowth got me to WP1, back the next day for a kayak paddle across the river and more steep hiking to reach WP2 and WP3, but, having run out of water in 38C heat, I didn't get to GZ until a couple of months later in the relative coolness of autumn, with more kayaking and steep climbing to finally sign the log. Those are the sort of caches I love and thrive on!

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I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

 

I wonder how many CO's who've previously invested considerable effort to create adventures for others to experience came up against this sort of attitude and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

As one who's experienced harassment by COs over simply viewing their caches, we don't do any PMOs anymore.

When it's happened to you, sure some would have an attitude...

 

Sounds like potential for an interesting back-story.

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I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

 

I wonder how many CO's who've previously invested considerable effort to create adventures for others to experience came up against this sort of attitude and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

As one who's experienced harassment by COs over simply viewing their caches, we don't do any PMOs anymore.

When it's happened to you, sure some would have an attitude...

 

I regularly watch my audit logs on my caches as there is someone going round nicking them, one day they will slip up and one day I will find them. :D

  • Upvote 1
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Personally, I love multies that don't reveal too much. Several times I've had to go back to finish a multi because I didn't have the right equipment or ran out of time. I've been working on one I started 2 years ago and have gone back three times to try to finish it.

 

One of the most memorable multies I did involved around 10 nano bison tubes less than 100 feet from each other. I was hoping from tree to tree, not knowing when I would find the final. As I found more and more nanos, I both laughed and groaned more and more, not knowing when it would end. I was ecstatic when I finally found the final.

 

It is totally up to the CO as too how much information they want to give out. If you have questions, ask them. If you don't want to be bothered, stick to the easy traditionals.

 

The specific discussion that inspired me to start this thread involved a CO who would remove any logs from his cache that gave away anything whatsoever about the experience. The person telling the story agreed with this approach totally.

 

I think of it this way. Say it takes you a four-hour trek into the woods to complete the first bunch of stages and then you're physically unable to complete the last stage, which by itself would take you 20 minutes. Now you have to carve out another entire day to make the long trek again just to finish a 20 minute puzzle. That's the part that would frustrate me -- to be so close to the end and have to spend a whole entire day just to finish. From a "time invested" standpoint, it would be like getting through 80% of a Sudoku puzzle and then having someone erase it.

 

This is why I mostly stick to traditionals!

 

Yep, like others, this is my kind of adventure too. I enjoy some aspect of a challenge when I cache. If I relegated myself to guardrails and stop signs I'd be bored in five minutes. It's adventures and challenges like this which has helped keep me in the game for 12 thousand-some finds over 12 years.

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I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

 

I wonder how many CO's who've previously invested considerable effort to create adventures for others to experience came up against this sort of attitude and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

As one who's experienced harassment by COs over simply viewing their caches, we don't do any PMOs anymore.

When it's happened to you, sure some would have an attitude...

 

I regularly watch my audit logs on my caches as there is someone going round nicking them, one day they will slip up and one day I will find them. :D

Right...

Today, with so many ways to bypass that audit, that poor guy who doesn't know how is probably gonna be the one accused.

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I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

 

I wonder how many CO's who've previously invested considerable effort to create adventures for others to experience came up against this sort of attitude and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

As one who's experienced harassment by COs over simply viewing their caches, we don't do any PMOs anymore.

When it's happened to you, sure some would have an attitude...

 

I regularly watch my audit logs on my caches as there is someone going round nicking them, one day they will slip up and one day I will find them. :D

Right...

Today, with so many ways to bypass that audit, that poor guy who doesn't know how is probably gonna be the one accused.

 

+1

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I definitely could see an arrogant CO being so anal about his "creation" that he'd micro-manage it to death.

Sometimes it's all caches they own, so (for me) it'd be another reason to have an "Ignore this Cacher" function.

 

I wonder how many CO's who've previously invested considerable effort to create adventures for others to experience came up against this sort of attitude and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

As one who's experienced harassment by COs over simply viewing their caches, we don't do any PMOs anymore.

When it's happened to you, sure some would have an attitude...

 

I regularly watch my audit logs on my caches as there is someone going round nicking them, one day they will slip up and one day I will find them. :D

 

Cool story bro.

 

When you find them, what then?

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