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TeamEller

Cache violating guidelines

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The terms "damage", "deface", and "destroy" are implicitly negative, unwanted actions. If the owner of the property grants permission for the modification, surely it's no longer a negative, unwanted action, is it? Or are we really supposed to be going to property owners and asking for their explicit permission to damage, deface, or destroy their property?

I agree -- "damage" and "deface" connotes wrongfulness, i.e., without permission.

 

I disagree.

 

Smoking tobacco products harms your health - that's a fact, irrespective of any permission.

 

And, knowing this, if I choose to smoke - where's the wrongfulness? The damage meanwhile will continue, right, wrong or indifferent.

 

In the context of geocaching, damage, defacement and destruction are still damage, defacement and destruction even if the owner has given permission.

Turns out that property and lungs are not the same things. But thank you for the apples to staplers comparison.

 

It was no more apples to staplers than the claim that permission somehow magically cancels out damage, defacement or destruction.

:rolleyes:

 

As we've already heard from a reviewer on how this can actually work (in what appears to be clear English to all but one person), go ahead and light up, but please save your tortured semantics for CNN, Ms. Conway.

 

Tortured semantics? :blink:

 

Just simple facts.

 

I recall some mention that the landowner could give permission for the damage / defacement / destruction and that this did not override the guideline.

 

Unless you have an alternative interpretation?

 

I think the MORE important point is that even if you have permission, and even if you get special dispensation from GS to drill that hole, you SHOULDN'T.

 

If you drill a hole in the fence, with permission or not, the take-away message to the general caching community (not we obsessed nit-picky forum-feeders) is that there's an allowed cache over there, drilled into a fence. "I'll do that, too!"

 

Sacrifice your 'perfect hide' for the sake of the hobby.

 

Nah - just tell yourself it must have had permission and thus that the object with the hole drilled in it is exactly as perfect as before the hole was drilled in it and it's all good <_<

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A brief reminder: This is the "How do I...?" forum section. Responses should focus on answering the OP's question. For convenience, I've pasted it below.

 

I found recently a cache which is violating the guidelines - it is screwed to a tree. What can I do about that? There is no "Flag as inappropriate" or something like this on the cache profile.

 

Any other guidance about how to log a "Needs Archived" or how to email a Community Volunteer Reviewer or Geocaching HQ? Other ways to report caches viewed as inappropriate?

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So if a property manager drills a hole in a post (for whatever reason), and then tells the cache owner to use that hole to hide the cache, I don't see how that can be considered damage, defacement, or destruction.

 

Exactly -

 

In my case, I'm considering doing something similar on MY property with a tree / fence / structure... it's MY private property. In this case, Wouldn't I have every rights to bore a hole in the property and place my own cache? And before I get flamed, as a property owner I think I'll just go out a bore a bunch of holes in my fence (just for shats and grins). Then a week later, as a CO I'll find the holes and look for an appropriate sizzled container to hide in it. There, problem solved!

 

To go even further, I've found caches that were small logs with the end cut and put on a swivel, with a small hole bored out to house the cache itself. Isn't that small log "private property?" Everything belongs to someone...

 

To go EVEN further, I've found a few gadget / birdhouse caches. Someone had to own the lumber before they cut / bored / "damaged" it to make the birdhouse? (Just being anal and not serious with this one)

 

How about as a land owner who cuts his own firewood, someone bores a hole in a trunk and drags it out to a local park with a cache inserted? Don't laugh, I know of one of these...

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So if a property manager drills a hole in a post (for whatever reason), and then tells the cache owner to use that hole to hide the cache, I don't see how that can be considered damage, defacement, or destruction.

 

Exactly -

 

In my case, I'm considering doing something similar on MY property with a tree / fence / structure... it's MY private property. In this case, Wouldn't I have every rights to bore a hole in the property and place my own cache? And before I get flamed, as a property owner I think I'll just go out a bore a bunch of holes in my fence (just for shats and grins). Then a week later, as a CO I'll find the holes and look for an appropriate sizzled container to hide in it. There, problem solved!

 

To go even further, I've found caches that were small logs with the end cut and put on a swivel, with a small hole bored out to house the cache itself. Isn't that small log "private property?" Everything belongs to someone...

 

To go EVEN further, I've found a few gadget / birdhouse caches. Someone had to own the lumber before they cut / bored / "damaged" it to make the birdhouse? (Just being anal and not serious with this one)

 

How about as a land owner who cuts his own firewood, someone bores a hole in a trunk and drags it out to a local park with a cache inserted? Don't laugh, I know of one of these...

 

It goes without saying but I'll say it anyway.

 

There's a difference between a fence post and a living tree. I'd hope you'd keep responsible land stewardship in mind when making decisions regarding your own personal property never mind the property of others.

 

Trees used for lumber products are managed for overall health and sustainability. There are many factors that are considered when harvesting trees other than the quality of the lumber it will produce.

 

It's not about whether or not you can drill a hole in a tree on your own property. The question is should you?

 

There are plenty of ways to hide a geocache which don't involve damaging the natural landscape so why even do it? I have a few caches that are made out of stumps and limbs but they were harvested from trees that had already fallen and were dead.

 

If you have permission from the owner to drill a hole in a fence post, run it by your reviewer. If all agree than fire up the cordless drill and have at it. If you have permission to drill a hole in a tree, don't.

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I think some common sense is needed. And in all honesty many reviewers and geocachers can be over the top. For example, if I have a mailbox and post at the end of my driveway, drill a hole in it and install a flap - it's not allowed as I'm defacing property. What if I build the mailbox from scratch with the intention of containing a geocache so it always had a hole and flap. Am I defacing property?

 

What about all the books destroyed for the creation of library caches? Obviously if I take a book from the library and start cutting it up I'm in the wrong. But if I own the book or ask a friend for a book it's all okay.

 

Just like if my friend owns a chain link fence and says I can modify it (drill a hole in it) I'm not defacing or destroying.

 

Having permission is the difference between vandalism (defacing) and having an outside wall painted by an artist (art).

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I think some common sense is needed.

 

Common sense tells me that finding a hole drilled in a structure to hide a cache doesn't tell me one way or the other whether the driller had permission or not.

 

Common sense tells me that there are many cachers out there who will see the drilling of holes as acceptable and go and do it themselves - probably with no permission of any kind.

 

Common sense tells me that the safest bet is not to drill holes to hide caches.

 

And in all honesty many reviewers and geocachers can be over the top. For example, if I have a mailbox and post at the end of my driveway, drill a hole in it and install a flap - it's not allowed as I'm defacing property. What if I build the mailbox from scratch with the intention of containing a geocache so it always had a hole and flap.

 

To be honest this sounds a bit over the top.

 

What about all the books destroyed for the creation of library caches?

 

Are the many? I've never come across one in seven years as an active cacher.

 

Just like if my friend owns a chain link fence and says I can modify it (drill a hole in it) I'm not defacing or destroying.

 

Shouldn't need to drill a hole - chain link fences are full of 'em :laughing:

 

Having permission is the difference between vandalism (defacing) and having an outside wall painted by an artist (art).

 

I wasn't aware that the painting of outside walls was the subject of the thread.

 

The OP related to a cache being screwed to a tree.

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You can log a "Needs Archived" log, or you can write an email to your local Community Volunteer Reviewer.

How can I find out who my local Community Volonteer Reviewer is? I didn't find this information neither in cache description nor in "Community -> Volonteer" section of geocaching.com.

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You can log a "Needs Archived" log, or you can write an email to your local Community Volunteer Reviewer.

How can I find out who my local Community Volonteer Reviewer is? I didn't find this information neither in cache description nor in "Community -> Volonteer" section of geocaching.com.

 

You can find any cache in your area. Go to that cache page and scroll down to the bottom of the logs. The person who published the cache should be your local reviewer.

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You can log a "Needs Archived" log, or you can write an email to your local Community Volunteer Reviewer.

How can I find out who my local Community Volonteer Reviewer is? I didn't find this information neither in cache description nor in "Community -> Volonteer" section of geocaching.com.

Go to the Regional Geocaching Policies Wiki and find your country/state on the list. When you land on a region's page, the current Community Volunteer Reviewers are listed at the top right corner of the page.

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You can log a "Needs Archived" log, or you can write an email to your local Community Volunteer Reviewer.

How can I find out who my local Community Volonteer Reviewer is? I didn't find this information neither in cache description nor in "Community -> Volonteer" section of geocaching.com.

Go to the Regional Geocaching Policies Wiki and find your country/state on the list. When you land on a region's page, the current Community Volunteer Reviewers are listed at the top right corner of the page.

 

That's cool. I didn't realize there's only one reviewer and one backup for all of Massachusetts. I'll remember that the next time I hear someone complain about how long it takes to get their caches published.

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You can find any cache in your area. Go to that cache page and scroll down to the bottom of the logs. The person who published the cache should be your local reviewer.

 

Thank you!

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