Moving caches gone:

2.2k · May 22, 2017

My final comment:

A classless, ill-conceived move by Groundspeak and just another step towards the game being nothing but power trails. If it doesn't appeal to the lowest common denominator, Groundspeak isn't interested. :sad:

May 22, 2017

For GC43F3, Brass Cap Cache, why did they archive it? Could they not have simply allowed it to be a non-moving cache at a location chosen by the cache owner. This is a Virtual Cache with such a great history and the most found of any cache in North America.

No kidding. I can understand that Stash-n-Dash doesn't really work if if can't move, but outforthehunt should have been given the chance to find a final permanent location for Leap Frog and allowed to pick one final location for the Brass Cap Cache where it could have remained. This was a classless move by Groundspeak and a slap in the face to one of the pioneers of caching. Unbelievable.

Even travelers that had settled down to a "final permanent location" were axed. This one has been at its permanent home since April 2005. Hasn't moved in over twelve years. Still archived and locked.

3.7k · May 22, 2017

My final comment:

A classless, ill-conceived move by Groundspeak and just another step towards the game being nothing but power trails. If it doesn't appeal to the lowest common denominator, Groundspeak isn't interested.

Is that really the best you can do for your "final comment"? Gone out...not with a bang but a whimper.

May 23, 2017

My final comment:

A classless, ill-conceived move by Groundspeak and just another step towards the game being nothing but power trails. If it doesn't appeal to the lowest common denominator, Groundspeak isn't interested.

Is that really the best you can do for your "final comment"? Gone out...not with a bang but a whimper.

Okay, I understand now. Unique caches can't be around anymore because there are too many thoughtless people out there and they're too much work for Groundpeak..the class can only go as fast as the slowest learner type thing. Wonderful.

4.5k · May 23, 2017

My final comment:

A classless, ill-conceived move by Groundspeak and just another step towards the game being nothing but power trails. If it doesn't appeal to the lowest common denominator, Groundspeak isn't interested.

Boy howdy! For Groundspeak to just keep sucking the life out of what was once a great hobby. It almost seems tptb are intentionally trying to kill off geocaching.com. None of this makes any sense.

4.8k · May 23, 2017

I heard about moving caches being taken to events, but I never saw it.

THIS ONE has been treated as a pocket cache for ages.

We logged it at a Mega in 2012. It was sitting on a table.

Ironically, one of the caches that dprovan is talking about actually was at an Event I went to once. In general though, most people behaved themselves and moved the cache around as intended.

3.4k · May 23, 2017

Another day, another outrage from the Lily-pad.

The web pages go from functional to sucky.

Aspects of the game which made it compelling are ebbing away.

All this improvement makes the mind reel - which of the upcoming changes will be removing the capstone?

Always taking away from the game, leaving a rule or exasperation in the wake.

These have to be motivated by some form of business logic I'm unfamiliar with.

10.1k · May 23, 2017

For GC43F3, Brass Cap Cache, why did they archive it? Could they not have simply allowed it to be a non-moving cache at a location chosen by the cache owner. This is a Virtual Cache with such a great history and the most found of any cache in North America.

No kidding. I can understand that Stash-n-Dash doesn't really work if if can't move, but outforthehunt should have been given the chance to find a final permanent location for Leap Frog and allowed to pick one final location for the Brass Cap Cache where it could have remained. This was a classless move by Groundspeak and a slap in the face to one of the pioneers of caching. Unbelievable.

Even travelers that had settled down to a "final permanent location" were axed. This one has been at its permanent home since April 2005. Hasn't moved in over twelve years. Still archived and locked.

That's just weird! It hasn't been a moving cache since it was retrieved from where I hid it in 2004! That is NOT a moving cache! (I actually wanted to move it to Shades of Death Road in Allamuchy, but ran out of time.) Twelve years since it moved. That is no longer a moving cache. And has not been for over a decade! Unarchive it! Whichever lackey came up with this Keyword: Moving has done a terrible job!

Edited May 23, 2017 by Harry Dolphin

5.7k · May 23, 2017

These have to be motivated by some form of business logic I'm unfamiliar with.

mo·nop·o·ly

noun

1.The exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service.

"his likely motive was to protect his regional monopoly on furs"

3.4k · May 23, 2017

These have to be motivated by some form of business logic I'm unfamiliar with.

mo·nop·o·ly

noun

1.The exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service.

"his likely motive was to protect his regional monopoly on furs"

Well, they had a monopoly. There are other hosts, which shall remain nameless, and perhaps something yet may come along which is so odious to the core community they migrate.

I look at ebay as an example. They've had the corner on the market of online auctions (everyone went there because everyone was there,) but their rules were enigmatic and inflexible, they introduced business model changes which dissatisfied many sellers as well as buyers. That opened the door for competition and now they appear to be more of a storefront than auction site. So many things are listed at absurd prices for Buy It Now or Make An Offer, I find I forgo them for other sites. I really have to want something to buy it on there now. Their glory days, from a seller and buyer's perspective are firmly in their past.

So things do change.

Edited May 23, 2017 by DragonsWest

4.1k · May 23, 2017

These have to be motivated by some form of business logic I'm unfamiliar with.

It might have something to do with the goal of "making better mistakes tomorrow."

3.4k · May 23, 2017

These have to be motivated by some form of business logic I'm unfamiliar with.

It might have something to do with the goal of "making better mistakes tomorrow."

Of that I have little doubt. Ever since the decision which preceded that statement I've wondered where their hearts really are.

May 23, 2017

So.....

What happened to Geocaching HQ's response to GC43F3 when I questioned duplicate found-it logs going away?

"Fortunately for the fans of the cache, it is not being archived. None of the existing logs will be changed or removed. People who have already logged finds on it can continue to enjoy hunting for it in each new location, but log their visit and tell about their experience with a note instead of a find. Newer geocachers that have not yet attempted it, will be able to log their first find on the listing, and continue to log visits via a note. None of the fun experience needs to change."

(bolding added by me for emphasis)

Edited May 23, 2017 by brendan714

May 23, 2017

That's just weird! It hasn't been a moving cache since it was retrieved from where I hid it in 2004! That is NOT a moving cache!

If I park my car today, and don't drive it anywhere until 2030, it's still a car...

May 23, 2017

So.....

What happened to Geocaching HQ's response to GC43F3 when I questioned duplicate found-it logs going away?

"Fortunately for the fans of the cache, it is not being archived. None of the existing logs will be changed or removed. People who have already logged finds on it can continue to enjoy hunting for it in each new location, but log their visit and tell about their experience with a note instead of a find. Newer geocachers that have not yet attempted it, will be able to log their first find on the listing, and continue to log visits via a note. None of the fun experience needs to change."

(bolding added by me for emphasis)

My guess is that so many people complained, that they got fed up with it.

The reasons listed in the help center article makes perfect sense.

I think it's a good thing that Groundspeak doesn't waste developer time supporting less than 0.003% of the world's active caches.

May 23, 2017

I think it's a good thing that Groundspeak doesn't waste developer time supporting less than 0.003% of the world's active caches.

No, it's far better to waste developer time supporting and developing an app that nobody wants to use ...

May 23, 2017

I think it's a good thing that Groundspeak doesn't waste developer time supporting less than 0.003% of the world's active caches.

No, it's far better to waste developer time supporting and developing an app that nobody wants to use ...

I never said that. But the app won't get better if the developers don't get time to work on it...

2.6k · May 23, 2017

So.....

What happened to Geocaching HQ's response to GC43F3 when I questioned duplicate found-it logs going away?

"Fortunately for the fans of the cache, it is not being archived. None of the existing logs will be changed or removed. People who have already logged finds on it can continue to enjoy hunting for it in each new location, but log their visit and tell about their experience with a note instead of a find. Newer geocachers that have not yet attempted it, will be able to log their first find on the listing, and continue to log visits via a note. None of the fun experience needs to change."

(bolding added by me for emphasis)

My guess is that so many people complained, that they got fed up with it.

That's my guess too. Because they were popular, they got a lot of requests to allow the logging to continue as it was when the new logging rules were announced.

That combined with, in the past, some of these caches (not the YOSM or the Brass Cap) had complaints, I recall one where the cache was taken out of the area it was supposed to travel.

So I think management put 2 and 2 together. People are complaining, and we had complaints before. Let's get rid of all of these so they don't have them to complain about.

But pretty bad timing and communication specifically for YOSM and Brass Cap, where assurances had recently been given.

I wonder if we will see more elimination of grandfathered caches? I would bet Webcam caches have more than the average number of complaints or issues; e.g. are people faking photos, etc. And they require " time and effort to maintain exceptions" - e.g. there is a "webcam photo taken" log type which needs to be maintained just for these.

5.7k · May 23, 2017

Looks like Photograph Arizona got caught up in the purge as well. Bummer. I never did get that one, always meant to.

2.6k · May 23, 2017

Looks like Photograph Arizona got caught up in the purge as well. Bummer. I never did get that one, always meant to.

I see "This cache is now trackable as TB8DWQ4". Interesting to see how a moving virtual is tracked as a TB.

5.7k · May 23, 2017

Looks like Photograph Arizona got caught up in the purge as well. Bummer. I never did get that one, always meant to.

I see "This cache is now trackable as TB8DWQ4". Interesting to see how a moving virtual is tracked as a TB.

Not yet activated, so the real question is how the owner will implement virtual TB-hood.

But now we know what the special icon looks like:

5.7k · May 23, 2017

But now we know what the special icon looks like:

Yes, a Duck in an ammo can. :laughing: Just too generic looking for me, and I love collecting new icons.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Manville Possum

5.7k · May 23, 2017

I was thinking more like a geocache version of the blue shell from Mario Kart.

May 23, 2017

Please stay on topic. I have removed posts dealing with other websites. If you wish to discuss their maintenance plans, please do so there.

5.7k · May 23, 2017

I would bet Webcam caches have more than the average number of complaints or issues; e.g. are people faking photos, etc. And they require " time and effort to maintain exceptions" - e.g. there is a "webcam photo taken" log type which needs to be maintained just for these.

You know that web cams are problematic, and they all are completed with a smartphone, no more call a friend to take a screen shot from their PC.

When a web cam does have a real issue, it's cache page becomes a forums. As a cache owner, I would not be interested in maintaining one, and posting notes on my cache page would get the kill switch pressed pronto. :anibad:

3.3k · May 23, 2017

As long as cachers keep posting their geocaches on geocaching.com and paying their $30 each year for a PM, Groundspeak (the so called 'Geocaching Headquarters') will never listen to their users. They have never before and they won't this time.

I for one will be taking tangible action. I hope others Alberta cachers who have been affected by the archival and locking of The Brass Cap Cache will too.

5.7k · May 23, 2017

As long as cachers keep posting their geocaches on geocaching.com and paying their $30 each year for a PM, Groundspeak (the so called 'Geocaching Headquarters') will never listen to their users. They have never before and they won't this time.

I for one will be taking tangible action. I hope others Alberta cachers who have been affected by the archival and locking of The Brass Cap Cache will too.

Yes, I recall getting upset here and archiving some caches and listing them on Garmin's new Geocaching site. :anicute: We all know how that worked out don't we? :laughing:

As for the Brass Cap getting archived after we were told differently, that is how this company does business. They don't care because they have such a large customer base, they can afford to step on a few little people to make their site run smoothly. :anibad: It's just business to them.

7.8k · May 23, 2017

Even travelers that had settled down to a "final permanent location" were axed. This one has been at its permanent home since April 2005. Hasn't moved in over twelve years. Still archived and locked.

That's just weird! It hasn't been a moving cache since it was retrieved from where I hid it in 2004! That is NOT a moving cache! (I actually wanted to move it to Shades of Death Road in Allamuchy, but ran out of time.) Twelve years since it moved. That is no longer a moving cache. And has not been for over a decade! Unarchive it! Whichever lackey came up with this Keyword: Moving has done a terrible job!

You could have fooled me. There sure seems to be a lot of moving-cache-style text in the description. I see no indication that it isn't a moving cache, and every indication that it is (or rather, was).

If the owner had indeed changed it to be a stationary cache, they should have updated the description.

May 24, 2017

I have just noticed this, Not my petition I hasten to add so I cannot take the credit for it

https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-ruining-our-game.html

13.7k · May 24, 2017

I have just noticed this, Not my petition I hasten to add so I cannot take the credit for it

https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-ruining-our-game.html

Yeah, cowardly rabble-rousers, using "Anonymous" as their name on a petition...

4.1k · May 24, 2017

As for the Brass Cap getting archived after we were told differently, that is how this company does business. They don't care because they have such a large customer base, they can afford to step on a few little people to make their site run smoothly. It's just business to them.

In light of the decision to reverse themselves with no warning, maybe it's time to renew the commitment to proactive communication.

First, I’d like to apologize for the lack of clear and proactive communication. You deserve better and we’ll do our best to provide clear information more proactively in the future.

1.8k · May 24, 2017

Interestingly, not all of the traveling caches are gone. Just the ones that changed their coordinates. Those that had static coordinates may not have been affected; I know at least one that survived the purge.

(Oh, which one, you ask? Nice try, narc, I ain't snitchin'.)

Snitches get stitches.

Good one Ambrosia

5.7k · May 24, 2017

As for the Brass Cap getting archived after we were told differently, that is how this company does business. They don't care because they have such a large customer base, they can afford to step on a few little people to make their site run smoothly. It's just business to them.

In light of the decision to reverse themselves with no warning, maybe it's time to renew the commitment to proactive communication.

First, I’d like to apologize for the lack of clear and proactive communication. You deserve better and we’ll do our best to provide clear information more proactively in the future.

Well, Bryan actually did post a response to one of my negative comments on the Waymarking site to confirm it will still be around. I was shocked that he posted, but darn glad that he did. I was bummed out thinking the site may vanish soon.

Maybe it is time that he communicate with his customers here as well. Maybe he will give me a job as a Lackey and make me his PR rep, but don't count on it.

May 24, 2017

So.....

What happened to Geocaching HQ's response to GC43F3 when I questioned duplicate found-it logs going away?

"Fortunately for the fans of the cache, it is not being archived. None of the existing logs will be changed or removed. People who have already logged finds on it can continue to enjoy hunting for it in each new location, but log their visit and tell about their experience with a note instead of a find. Newer geocachers that have not yet attempted it, will be able to log their first find on the listing, and continue to log visits via a note. None of the fun experience needs to change."

(bolding added by me for emphasis)

My guess is that so many people complained, that they got fed up with it.

The reasons listed in the help center article makes perfect sense.

I think it's a good thing that Groundspeak doesn't waste developer time supporting less than 0.003% of the world's active caches.

Hmmmmmm let me think, the latest development is the waster of time not the happy caches that have been working fine as long as I can remember. And changing a communicated decision without even saying sorry is just beyond the pale. Restore our caches as promised please. I am so tempted just to give up because I would think that more diversity will go in the near future. What's next on the get rid of pile multis (not enough people do them), wherigos(even less so who cares), need I say more.

Edited May 24, 2017 by lodgebarn

1.3k · May 24, 2017

They don't care because they have such a large customer base

Mr. Irish and his people are going to do what they feel is best for us, not what we want.

I don't believe that.

They are going to do what they feel is best for them.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: I can't figure out which is worse -- that they don't care, or that they don't care that they don't care.

5.7k · May 24, 2017

They don't care because they have such a large customer base

Mr. Irish and his people are going to do what they feel is best for us, not what we want.

I don't believe that.

They are going to do what they feel is best for them.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: I can't figure out which is worse -- that they don't care, or that they don't care that they don't care.

I don't care that they don't care. They are running a business, and I understand that. They are selling something that others can't give away for free, and I respect that.

Those guys had an awesome vision.

People will soon get over these recent archived cache types because truthfully, not that many of us were actually effected in any way.

May 24, 2017

People will soon get over these recent archived cache types because truthfully, not that many of us were actually effected in any way.

Sorry, but I so don't agree with that. We apparently live in an area with plenty of these artefacts - still 15 to 20 of them around in the Benelux. And there are a lot of geocachers around here that are trying to "collect" all those within our borders. Except now they can't do that anymore. And the feeling is really not the same between hunting for traveling caches, complete with interesting / fun history and its own logbook or finding just another trackable.

And yes, some really are artefacts. Just take a look at Don & John Juan for example. Finding hitchhikers is was extremely popular over here. They are were in a class of their own.

Edited May 24, 2017 by NLBokkie

May 24, 2017

Not that anyone foresaw this, but in hindsight the removal of the "update coordinates" functionality sort of telegraphed this, didn't it?

I sense a disturbance in the Force that moving caches won't be the only casualty to come. Since so many virtuals are derelict, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a mass archival or shift of all of them to Waymarking. (I would not be pleased about it, as they are one of my favorite types of caches to do.)

Perhaps webcams and wherigos will also fall victim (too much abuse, too many complaints, whatever).

For the record, I think we've only done 1 moving cache and that was archived in October 2016, so it's not like we have a huge vested interest in them, but they were a neat part of the game and now they're gone. What other "neat part of the game" will be next?

3k · May 24, 2017

The only Moving Cache I ever found was brought to an event.

The only 'cache TB' I ever discovered was an ammo can. I dropped it next to an ammo can cache and both cans got muggled

Not really sad to see Moving Caches or pseudo-Locationless caches go extinct.

I am surprised that Groundspeak has kept the Benchmarking portion of geocaching.com. I wonder how long before that gets the axe? I say this as someone who does log benchmarks, but who realizes not many others do.

3.7k · May 24, 2017

The only Moving Cache I ever found was brought to an event.

The only 'cache TB' I ever discovered was an ammo can. I dropped it next to an ammo can cache and both cans got muggled

Not really sad to see Moving Caches or pseudo-Locationless caches go extinct.

I am surprised that Groundspeak has kept the Benchmarking portion of geocaching.com. I wonder how long before that gets the axe? I say this as someone who does log benchmarks, but who realizes not many others do.

I've logged one traveling cache...one of the Mars Rovers. I actually only watched for it because someone mentioned it and when I looked it up it was close to my home area. When I saw someone drop it in a cache I could grab on the way to work, I went for it...only to be disappointed when it wasn't there. This illustrates one of the problems with them: delayed logging. Someone was in a big ol' hurry to go grab the thing, but apparently couldn't be bothered to log it at the time...surely knowing others were likely to be out looking for it. When someone I see regularly at events finally logged it a week or two later, I asked them if they could drop it somewhere close so I could try again. They offered to hand it off to me at the next event a few days later, so that's what we did.

Basically these things are treated like trackables: not properly logged, not logged in a timely manner, handed around at events...eventually going missing. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck, no?

So yeah, they are just glorified travel bugs. I think you'll all get over this.

2.6k · May 24, 2017

People will soon get over these recent archived cache types because truthfully, not that many of us were actually effected in any way.

True. But.

For the first part, most of us who love geocaching will continue, even if GS got rid of every type except Traditional. They won't do that of course, but my point is that just because we will get over it, doesn't mean it is a good decision.

For the second part: Hard to quantify. Clearly, worldwide, these are a very small percentage of caches. In the UK specifically, there are around 30,000 active cachers (I'm counting active as has logged a cache in the past month). 3000 have found the "YOSM". Many of those are real fans of that cache. So it is less than 10% of UK cachers, but still a significant number of people are disappointed.

From another post, in the Netherlands and other countries, some of the other moving caches are popular.

Of course it is Groundspeak's call. They can get rid of all grandfathered types if they want. There is only one Ape cache, why not get rid of that? It wouldn't impact many people. It doesn't impact me, I don't think I'll ever go to Brazil. There is some value in these unusual, grandfathered caches.

2.6k · May 24, 2017

Not that anyone foresaw this, but in hindsight the removal of the "update coordinates" functionality sort of telegraphed this, didn't it?

Not sure what you mean. What removal?

3.7k · May 24, 2017

Not that anyone foresaw this, but in hindsight the removal of the "update coordinates" functionality sort of telegraphed this, didn't it?

Not sure what you mean. What removal?

Far as I know, it's still an option. Only problem is you can't update the coordinates to anything further than 0.1 mile from the previous posted coordinates...so updating for the traveling caches essentially requires a reviewer.

2.6k · May 24, 2017

Not that anyone foresaw this, but in hindsight the removal of the "update coordinates" functionality sort of telegraphed this, didn't it?

Not sure what you mean. What removal?

Far as I know, it's still an option. Only problem is you can't update the coordinates to anything further than 0.1 mile from the previous posted coordinates...so updating for the traveling caches essentially requires a reviewer.

That has always been the case (well at least since 2009 when I started), a CO can only move a cache 0.1 miles. But the moving caches were an exception, the CO could do it. I never saw anything saying the COs of these moving caches couldn't update the coordinates anymore. Though that is moot now.

2.6k · May 24, 2017

Having thought about this more, and reading the explanation many times, I'm left with disappointment (not hysteria), and 2 main questions.

The disappointment is mainly about the YOSM/Brass Cap. More for friends who are big fans of it than myself (I've only found 2 of them). Especially as they were just given assurances that it would NOT be archived. Which leads me to my first question:

Question 1: Why now?

Reading the explanation.. none of that is new. They could have used that as a reason years ago. Why now? The only visible thing I see is the "backlash" about the removal of multiple logging. Was this the trigger?

Question 2: What else?

Other grandfathered caches have similar issues and also small numbers.. so the justification can be used on them. Are there plans to archive other types of grandfathered caches?

If Groundspeak was to do a review of all grandfathered types, and decide to keep some, get rid of some, that would make sense. But this seems to be a knee jerk reaction, triggered by something we don't know (but I have my guess), and not part of an overall plan.

And lastly.. to keep Geocaching growing.. how about some new innovative cache types, rather than further restrictions of some (challenges) and removal of others?

May 24, 2017

So what has changed since HQ sent me and many others this email promising that the YOSM would not be archived then ?

3 lies in one paragraph, takes some doing

Hello Mark,

Thank you for contacting Geocaching HQ. I'm sorry, but we cannot give an exception for YOSM. As you probably know, it is mislisted as a virtual and is really a locationless cache. If it had been listed correctly, it would have been archived long ago with all of the other locationless caches. It has had a very long life.

Fortunately for the YOSM fans in the UK, it is not being archived. None of the existing logs will be changed or removed. People who have already logged finds on it can continue to chase after it in each new location, but log with a note instead of a find. Newer geocachers that have not yet attempted it, will be able to log their first find on the listing, and continue to log visits via a note. None of the fun experience needs to change.

Kind Regards,

Sadly this duplicity can be expected from Groundspeak, a company that has proven time and time again that customer satisfaction is not of any interest to them whatsoever. They didn't even have the sense to avoid putting their lies in writing.

9k · May 24, 2017

Oh my.

May 24, 2017

There is only one Ape cache, why not get rid of that? It wouldn't impact many people. It doesn't impact me, I don't think I'll ever go to Brazil. There is some value in these unusual, grandfathered caches.

I thought they'd "found" an old container from one somehow and had released it back out somewhere in Washington State?

Seems an odd decision in hindsight...

4.5k · May 24, 2017

They don't care because they have such a large customer base

Mr. Irish and his people are going to do what they feel is best for us, not what we want.

I don't believe that.

They are going to do what they feel is best for them.

I have said it before and I'll say it again: I can't figure out which is worse -- that they don't care, or that they don't care that they don't care.

I don't care that they don't care. They are running a business, and I understand that. They are selling something that others can't give away for free, and I respect that.

Those guys had an awesome vision.

People will soon get over these recent archived cache types because truthfully, not that many of us were actually effected in any way.

Must be nice to not care that they don't care. For me, there's this thing called respect. In this case, respect for the company's customers. I realize that Groundspeak can't oblige everyone's wants and wishes but they sure shouldn't slap those customers in the face at every turn. You are right about one thing, those guys had an awesome vision. It's sad that they lost it.

2.6k · May 24, 2017

There is only one Ape cache, why not get rid of that? It wouldn't impact many people. It doesn't impact me, I don't think I'll ever go to Brazil. There is some value in these unusual, grandfathered caches.

I thought they'd "found" an old container from one somehow and had released it back out somewhere in Washington State?

Seems an odd decision in hindsight...

You are right, soon there will be two. And I'm more likely to get to Washington State than Brazil.

I know that is different.. but there are few caches and it impacts few people....

Edited May 24, 2017 by redsox_mark

Moving caches gone:

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