Throw downs - Venting...

[+WearyTraveler]

For the purpose of my thread, my definition of a throwdown is then a seeker cannot find a cache and decides unilaterally that it's missing, then drops a new container (regardless of size / type), and logs a find.

 

I'm not talking about a seeker that has "permission" from the CO to replace as necessary (I had previously talked to CO and he gave me a handful and asked that I do so).

 

What caused me to post this is that a while ago I participated in a run of GRC / signpost caches on a PT. Pretty much if you don't find it, probably gone... not too many places you can hide a 1/1 on or in a stop sign.

 

We "did the right thing" and replaced logs, baggies and the occasional broken (but located) container. Had over 20 DNFs - which were not found in the previous year. On my watch list they went...

 

I just received a boatload of emails. A cacher w over 6000 caches went on the same run. They noted in their logs that they searched in all the logical places and replaced as necessary, then logged them all as finds. Basically, can't find it, confident it's gone, throw down and log...

 

They even went as far as saying that they feel the replacements won't last too long and that NM. They even drop, log find, log NA on a few...

 

None of the logs specified whether the found or dropped - just a canned log... nor did they bother to go back and edit the NM or NA logs...

 

My feelings..

• 
   
  
• They artificially bumped their numbers - wonder how they got 6000... - I know - it's a game... but...
  
• Easy way to qualify for the lonely cache challenge (finding caches that haven't been located in x years) or perhaps the alpha challenge
  
• Previous DNFers don't know whether they missed it or the cache was actually gone
  
• Just seems wrong
  

[+candlestick]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

[+niraD]

For reference, see the Help Center article Respond to "throwdowns".

[+colleda]

From my experience its the high numbers finders that appear to be the worst culprits. Then noobs (and not so noobs)come along, read the logs, and presume that it is standard practise and the cycle continues. Doesn't look as though much that can be done about it.

I can confess that in our early days we did leave one throwdown. In our case it was under advice to the CO asking if he could check it out and give the ok to log a find which we did several weeks later when the CO checked it.

We once found two throwdowns and no cache at one GZ. Logged NM. No action from CO. Logged NA - disdabled then archived by reviewer.

[+The Magna Defender]

You logged an NA for two containers at GZ? That's not really on. That's just causing littering

[+L0ne.R]

If you really want to stop it, you have to post an NA. Report the throwdown, especially if after your DNF, the person who threw it down actually said in their log that they threw a new cache down. But some reviewers might not archive it because throwdowns on PT trails are allowed (nudge nudge wink wink).

[+L0ne.R]

1494144387[/url]' post='5652930']

You logged an NA for two containers at GZ? That's not really on. That's just causing littering

 

That's not the OP's fault. That is the fault of the guy who threw down a container and never intends to come back to monitor it. We need to discourage litter by anyone who plays this game - the owner, or the "finder".

[+cerberus1]

We had a cache that regularly got throwdowns by long-time premium members, who didn't seem to bother reading the description or hint.

Each time we'd head out to find a film can 15' or better from GZ.

 

Our directions said there was no need to leave the trail, recumbent bikes wouldn't even have to leave their seat (how I placed it), yet we'd find that throwdown well into the woods.

Sheesh...

[+cerberus1]

If you really want to stop it, you have to post an NA. Report the throwdown, especially if after your DNF, the person who threw it down actually said in their log that they threw a new cache down. But some reviewers might not archive it because throwdowns on PT trails are allowed (nudge nudge wink wink).

Curious, what do you believe you're stopping with an NA?

If a throwdowner is hitting many, dropping pill bottles all over, they could be reported to Groundspeak if it's a bother.

Why NA the cache (without knowing whether it's gonna be fixed first...) simply because someone dropped a throwdown?

[+redsox_mark]

I would find it annoying if someone placed a throwdown for one of my caches. And I'd be even more annoyed if someone raised a NA because of that. Either way I'd check the cache, and remove the throwdown - unless a) the original really was missing and the replacement was as good or better container than I would have used. In which case I'd leave it.

[+WearyTraveler]

From my experience its the high numbers finders that appear to be the worst culprits.

 

Yep - likely how they get those high numbers...

Then noobs (and not so noobs)come along, read the logs, and presume that it is standard practise and the cycle continues. Doesn't look as though much that can be done about it.

 

 

Unfortunately true...

I can confess that in our early days we did leave one throwdown. In our case it was under advice to the CO asking if he could check it out and give the ok to log a find which we did several weeks later when the CO checked it.

Which isn't a bad thing - as long as you're not just doing it for the numbers...

We once found two throwdowns and no cache at one GZ. Logged NM. No action from CO. Logged NA - disdabled then archived by reviewer.

I've found multiple theowdown caches writhing sight of each other...

[+narcissa]

If you really want to stop it, you have to post an NA. Report the throwdown, especially if after your DNF, the person who threw it down actually said in their log that they threw a new cache down. But some reviewers might not archive it because throwdowns on PT trails are allowed (nudge nudge wink wink).

Curious, what do you believe you're stopping with an NA?

If a throwdowner is hitting many, dropping pill bottles all over, they could be reported to Groundspeak if it's a bother.

Why NA the cache (without knowing whether it's gonna be fixed first...) simply because someone dropped a throwdown?

 

I NM throwdowns with a note that says "Not sure if we found the actual cache, could cache owner confirm?" and that way it gets the ball rolling if it's a negligent cache owner, or otherwise alerts a good cache owner to the shenanigans.

[+L0ne.R]

If you really want to stop it, you have to post an NA. Report the throwdown, especially if after your DNF, the person who threw it down actually said in their log that they threw a new cache down. But some reviewers might not archive it because throwdowns on PT trails are allowed (nudge nudge wink wink).

Curious, what do you believe you're stopping with an NA?

If a throwdowner is hitting many, dropping pill bottles all over, they could be reported to Groundspeak if it's a bother.

Why NA the cache (without knowing whether it's gonna be fixed first...) simply because someone dropped a throwdown?

 

I see your point.

I was thinking that the PT was neglected. Based on the OP's description "We "did the right thing" and replaced logs, baggies and the occasional broken (but located) container. Had over 20 DNFs - which were not found in the previous year. " I assumed that the PT was neglected.

 

The vent is about the problem of throwdowns. An NA will get a reviewer's attention. It should be noted why the NA is being posted. Some reviewers will post a temporary disable asking the CO to check the throwdown. I've seen it done, and I've seen caches archived by reviewers for lack of a check/communication.

Edited May 7, 2017 by L0ne.R

[+WearyTraveler]

If you really want to stop it, you have to post an NA. Report the throwdown, especially if after your DNF, the person who threw it down actually said in their log that they threw a new cache down. But some reviewers might not archive it because throwdowns on PT trails are allowed (nudge nudge wink wink).

Curious, what do you believe you're stopping with an NA?

If a throwdowner is hitting many, dropping pill bottles all over, they could be reported to Groundspeak if it's a bother.

Why NA the cache (without knowing whether it's gonna be fixed first...) simply because someone dropped a throwdown?

 

I see your point.

I was thinking that the PT was neglected. Based on the OP's description "We "did the right thing" and replaced logs, baggies and the occasional broken (but located) container. Had over 20 DNFs - which were not found in the previous year. " I assumed that the PT was neglected.

The vent is about the problem of throwdowns. An NA to get a reviewers attention. It should be noted why the NA is being posted. Some reviewers will post a temporary disable asking the CO to check the throwdown. I've seen it done, and I've seen caches archived by reviewers for lack of communication from the CO after the throwdown temporary disable reviewer log.

 

Depending on your definition of neglected... I believe that the PT in question has been neglected if you define it as not maintaining and letting finders replace logs and containers etc... out of the 100 or so we looked for, at least 25-30 were not found. Lots of the previous logs mentioned issues in the found logs, but I can't recall seeing many, if any, NMs. (When I looked at lest found date - it was over a year back - so these, intermingled with finds, also makes me believe that cachers aren't logging DNFs. - they found the ones left and right - but logged nothin for the middle cache)

 

Also - to be clear - I didn't post any NAs, just NMs and included in the NM my reasoning. It was the recent cacher that posted the NAs after noting that their replacement (throwdown) caches probably won't last long and that the caches should be replaced or archived. At this, I'd ask why they threw down - and the only reason I can think of is the find count. Otherwise, why not just NA it and leave it at that. Maybe they were just making sure that subsequent finders had a pleasant find?

 

And an additional point (as long as I'm venting), in another, or maybe even this thread, I made the incorrect ASSumption and statement that experienced cachers would take the time to go back and update the NM / NA log with at least a little detail. I was wrong. The logs in this particular PT. / rant / vent were the canned message from GS..

[+colleda]

You logged an NA for two containers at GZ? That's not really on. That's just causing littering

Of course, after logging the NM and the CO was MIA and obviously didn't care. I wont shy away if I see a problem.

And, the throwdowns were nothing like the cache size and description. As a seeker I would be a bit ticked off if I went looking for an ammo can with, possibly, good swag only to find a couple of crappy film pots with soggy logs.

I like to find caches as the CO intended.

[+L0ne.R]

I like to find caches as the CO intended.

 

This! ^^^

[+fizzymagic]

I like to find caches as the CO intended.

 

This! ^^^

 

The universe may soon end, as I agree with that also!

[+Team Microdot]

You logged an NA for two containers at GZ? That's not really on. That's just causing littering

 

The littering is actually caused by the person throwing down.

[+lee737]

I haven't seen very many, maybe half a dozen (I know of) - I am mostly cheesed off by blatant size discrepancies and just plain shoddy containers. I've seen one throwdown that was a piece of 50mm drain pipe, 'sealed' at one end with duct tape, the other end open - the 'cache' became a tree-frog home......

[+L0ne.R]

I haven't seen very many, maybe half a dozen (I know of) - I am mostly cheesed off by blatant size discrepancies and just plain shoddy containers. I've seen one throwdown that was a piece of 50mm drain pipe, 'sealed' at one end with duct tape, the other end open - the 'cache' became a tree-frog home......

 

A small size cache with double digit fav points. Seemed like it was worth it although it was roadside. It was a 50ml frozen orange juice container--the kind made out of paper with tin discs on either end--with a logsheet in a plastic bag crammed into it and a duct tape makeshift cover to replace one of the tin ends--guess people loved that it was inside a cracked and broken piece of bamboo with some duct tape holding it together and had a catchy title that referred to the bamboo.

[+UnHoly453]

It's just wrong, by all accounts to replace someone's cache without their consent. Log that it may be missing, and needs maintenance, check back again another time... if it has been a while (over a month) and the CO hasn't responded + more DNFs have been logged... report for archiving OR try to adopt it!

 

I went looking for a cache yesterday that bugged me for a few reasons: It hadn't been found in quite some time, the cache owner hadn't logged in for well over a year, it was clearly promotional in principal (though, not in a bad way), and it was placed somewhere that you essentially were being encouraged to be caught finding the cache... Not okay, and completely outside the realm of what geocaching is/should be.

 

THAT SAID... I could have easily thrown down one of these little containers I keep ready in case I find a good spot that I want to hide one, but that's not my place...

 

OK TO:

Take trash from a soggy cache.

Add a dry log, new pen, ziplock, etc... if the cache needs it...

So long as you report that you've done so, and log the need for maintenance...

 

NOT OKAY TO:

Assume the cache is gone because you didn't find it, and thus drop your own in it's place.

 

Some of us create extremely challenging hides because that's half the fun. Maybe I place a cache within 10 feet of a trailhead... but the container is so well camouflaged, that it takes you an HOUR to find it... well, thats great, if you ask me... that means you got to really think, really look, really ENJOY that time...

 

Throwdown because you didn't find it (without asking)... I will report you... and probably reneg any finds you've ever had on any of my caches... Because I assume if you're okay with that, you're probably okay with flat out lying that you even went to the cache as well.

[+Team Microdot]

Throwdown because you didn't find it (without asking)... I will report you... and probably reneg any finds you've ever had on any of my caches... Because I assume if you're okay with that, you're probably okay with flat out lying that you even went to the cache as well.

 

After checking the physical logbook for a signature or lack thereof, presumably?

[+UnHoly453]

Throwdown because you didn't find it (without asking)... I will report you... and probably reneg any finds you've ever had on any of my caches... Because I assume if you're okay with that, you're probably okay with flat out lying that you even went to the cache as well.

 

After checking the physical logbook for a signature or lack thereof, presumably?

 

Of course!

[+SeattleWayne]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

[+L0ne.R]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

[TahoeJoe]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

If someone can't maintain a cache it's best to remove the cache and open the area for new caches. Why bother maintaining a cache if you know someone will come along and do it for you? What if the cacher no longer plays and left years ago? While you have good intentions, it's in the best interest of everyone to remove poor maintained caches.

Edited May 8, 2017 by TahoeJoe

[TahoeJoe]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

If someone can't maintain a cache it's best to remove the cache and open the area for new caches. Why bother maintaining a cache if you know someone will come along and do it for you? What if the cacher no longer plays and left years ago? While you have good intentions, it's in the best interest of the community to remove poor maintained caches.

[+SeattleWayne]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

 

That's why we create CITOs to right our wrongs, and make ourselves feel better about leaving millions of plastic trash all over the world.

[+SeattleWayne]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

If someone can't maintain a cache it's best to remove the cache and open the area for new caches. Why bother maintaining a cache if you know someone will come along and do it for you? What if the cacher no longer plays and left years ago? While you have good intentions, it's in the best interest of everyone to remove poor maintained caches.

 

And with that logic, assuming that the CO went MIA, and left his Tupperware container behind, and no one emails the CO, CO doesn't respond to reviewer threatening to archive the cache, cache gets archived anyway...who cleans up the CO's mess he left behind? No one.

 

What I'm saying is: email CO, saying "hey- I have a replacement cache to help you out..." even if he doesn't respond in a month or two, at least old cache is removed and new cache is placed since no one is going to pick up CO's old crappy container anyway.

[+L0ne.R]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

 

That's why we create CITOs to right our wrongs, and make ourselves feel better about leaving millions of plastic trash all over the world.

 

We shouldn't be leaving plastic trash. Every cache should have an owner who will monitor their cache listing, check their cache when it needs checking, then pick up their container when they no longer want to monitor and maintain it.

[+L0ne.R]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

If someone can't maintain a cache it's best to remove the cache and open the area for new caches. Why bother maintaining a cache if you know someone will come along and do it for you? What if the cacher no longer plays and left years ago? While you have good intentions, it's in the best interest of everyone to remove poor maintained caches.

 

And with that logic, assuming that the CO went MIA, and left his Tupperware container behind, and no one emails the CO, CO doesn't respond to reviewer threatening to archive the cache, cache gets archived anyway...who cleans up the CO's mess he left behind? No one.

 

What I'm saying is: email CO, saying "hey- I have a replacement cache to help you out..." even if he doesn't respond in a month or two, at least old cache is removed and new cache is placed since no one is going to pick up CO's old crappy container anyway.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[+SeattleWayne]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

 

That's why we create CITOs to right our wrongs, and make ourselves feel better about leaving millions of plastic trash all over the world.

 

We shouldn't be leaving plastic trash. Every cache should have an owner who will monitor their cache listing, check their cache when it needs checking, then pick up their container when they no longer want to monitor and maintain it.

 

In a perfect world that should be happening. We both know thousands of caches probably get left out there to rot because people lose interest.

[+L0ne.R]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

 

That's why we create CITOs to right our wrongs, and make ourselves feel better about leaving millions of plastic trash all over the world.

 

We shouldn't be leaving plastic trash. Every cache should have an owner who will monitor their cache listing, check their cache when it needs checking, then pick up their container when they no longer want to monitor and maintain it.

 

In a perfect world that should be happening. We both know thousands of caches probably get left out there to rot because people lose interest.

 

Oh definitely. And throwdowns add to the problem.

[+WearyTraveler]

If someone can't maintain a cache it's best to remove the cache and open the area for new caches. Why bother maintaining a cache if you know someone will come along and do it for you? What if the cacher no longer plays and left years ago? While you have good intentions, it's in the best interest of the community to remove poor maintained caches.

 

I agree with you - but, unless you make the unilateral decision, while in the field, that the cache should be removed, and you take it, who's going to go back and actually remove the cache after archival.

 

It's kinda like the chicken and egg.

 

And I fully support some method of getting geotrash removed from the environment.

 

However, I'm sure that if either you or I suggest that we're allowed to make that unilateral decision, "stand by for incoming!"

[+Team Microdot]

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

 

That's why we create CITOs to right our wrongs, and make ourselves feel better about leaving millions of plastic trash all over the world.

 

We shouldn't be leaving plastic trash. Every cache should have an owner who will monitor their cache listing, check their cache when it needs checking, then pick up their container when they no longer want to monitor and maintain it.

 

In a perfect world that should be happening. We both know thousands of caches probably get left out there to rot because people lose interest.

 

And a CITO or two will cancel out those thousands of caches left out there to rot?

 

Have you organised / attended a lot of CITO events?

[+SeattleWayne]

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

 

That's why we create CITOs to right our wrongs, and make ourselves feel better about leaving millions of plastic trash all over the world.

 

We shouldn't be leaving plastic trash. Every cache should have an owner who will monitor their cache listing, check their cache when it needs checking, then pick up their container when they no longer want to monitor and maintain it.

 

In a perfect world that should be happening. We both know thousands of caches probably get left out there to rot because people lose interest.

 

And a CITO or two will cancel out those thousands of caches left out there to rot?

 

Have you organised / attended a lot of CITO events?

 

I only attend CITOs during CITO week so I can get a cool, fancy souvenir.

[+UnHoly453]

 

Most often the CO is gone. He doesn't care. He has left litter, and now you have left litter. Your container is ownerless and you are not going back to maintain or remove it.

An ownerless container is litter.

It's about the integrity of the pastime.

 

That's why we create CITOs to right our wrongs, and make ourselves feel better about leaving millions of plastic trash all over the world.

 

We shouldn't be leaving plastic trash. Every cache should have an owner who will monitor their cache listing, check their cache when it needs checking, then pick up their container when they no longer want to monitor and maintain it.

 

In a perfect world that should be happening. We both know thousands of caches probably get left out there to rot because people lose interest.

 

And a CITO or two will cancel out those thousands of caches left out there to rot?

 

Have you organised / attended a lot of CITO events?

 

I don't even have time to respond fully to everything I'm reading in full force, but I'll try...

 

1. CITO is something you should be doing - always. Leave the places you go cleaner than you found them.

2. Please tell me how a (or even several) CITO event, which might include a few dozen cachers, covering maybe a square mile, occurring sporadically at best, makes up for the tens of thousands of trashed-caches spread across hundreds of thousands of miles?

3. Just because your litter is prettier, doesn't make it not litter... At least the CO had some INTENTION of maintaining the cache.

4. People lose interest... I did... I had 3 caches out there when I left the hobby for 11+ years... You know what? The caches were archived, and NOW there are NEW caches in those places... placed by people who maintained interest during that time.

5. Maintenance/Archive logs exist for a reason... You're not ENTITLED to a find because you went out in search of a cache... You didn't find it? Maybe that was the CO's goal? Log the DNF and stop being such a stats junkie. Enjoy the hobby. You're not the best, and probably never will be.. I personally know people with tens of thousands of finds... they've been doing this for 15+ years... most of them are retired... They cache more than they are home...

6. THIS IS NOT A COMPETITION! When I see those absurd numbers, I don't think "Wow I wish my number was that high!", I think "Wow, think of all the places that person has been! The things they have probably seen! The EXPERIENCES they have probably had!". Numbers aren't impressive - experiences though... Experiences can be inspiring.

 

Bottom line, if it ain't yours, nothing wrong with swapping a soggy logbook for a fresh one, resealing a container, and taking wet trash. There is a problem with completely replacing another person's cache. Leave it as is - report the damage, take pictures, and move on. There are moderators, and guidelines for a reason - the system works - it has for 16 years, the 'I'll drop a new one' Idea isn't new or revolutionary... It's always popped up here and there, and always been a bad idea, and a discouraged practice.

 

If you're only in it for numbers, get a new hobby. To be perfectly frank - no one gives a rat's 4$$ how many smiley faces you have on a website they've never heard of, playing a game that, when explained, sounds ridiculous... JM2C!

[+bflentje]

If you're only in it for numbers, get a new hobby. To be perfectly frank - no one gives a rat's 4$$ how many smiley faces you have on a website they've never heard of, playing a game that, when explained, sounds ridiculous... JM2C!

 

Your two cents is pretty useless, and combative and offensive to me.

[TahoeJoe]

If someone can't maintain a cache it's best to remove the cache and open the area for new caches. Why bother maintaining a cache if you know someone will come along and do it for you? What if the cacher no longer plays and left years ago? While you have good intentions, it's in the best interest of the community to remove poor maintained caches.

 

I agree with you - but, unless you make the unilateral decision, while in the field, that the cache should be removed, and you take it, who's going to go back and actually remove the cache after archival.

 

It's kinda like the chicken and egg.

 

And I fully support some method of getting geotrash removed from the environment.

 

However, I'm sure that if either you or I suggest that we're allowed to make that unilateral decision, "stand by for incoming!"

I didn't make myself clear in my response. I meant that you should log a NM and not replace the cache. I must admit though, I have been tempted to remove some caches I have found in the past.

[+SerenitySearchers]

The OP is referring to us.. if anyone has questions, please contact us. We do not appreciate anyone judging us, or sharing their public opinion of our Geocaching practices, especially when they have not even taken the time to contact us personally and have a discussion.

 

Drop caches and power-trails are 2 different subjects. If a cache is intended to be an easy find in a power trail, then it is common practice for seekers to replace these... or even move them from location to location and some power trails even keep extra containers/logs in the first or last for this purpose.

 

Dropping a cache at a location where you cannot find something, that was intended to be more difficult, that is not part of a power trail, in our opinion is not ok. (or even if it is a power trail and the owner has specified that they don't want caches replaced)

 

We find PT's while we are caching because they are there and they are allowed, however our opinion is that they are out of control, and overall bad for the sport.

 

Our numbers are not inflated, don't be a hater just because you choose to do things different... we feel an apology is owed to us.

[+UnHoly453]

If you're only in it for numbers, get a new hobby. To be perfectly frank - no one gives a rat's 4$$ how many smiley faces you have on a website they've never heard of, playing a game that, when explained, sounds ridiculous... JM2C!

 

Your two cents is pretty useless, and combative and offensive to me.

 

Yea, I'm combative...

 

I've said nothing offensive. If you're referring specifically to the last statement, being that you've been around geocaching for 12ish years, I'm more than certain that there have been times when people have looked at you sideways when you've explained it to them. I can see how my choice of words could be interpreted as insulting the game, but that is far from what I was trying to do.

[+Team Microdot]

Our numbers are not inflated, don't be a hater just because you choose to do things different... we feel an apology is owed to us.

 

Apology why?

 

As far as I can see the OP didn't reveal anyone's identity.

[+The Magna Defender]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES. Also, if you find the cache and it's all broke, full of water and missing a log book, and you take initiative to replace the container, put a new log book in said container and then appropriately email the CO and say, "Hey buddy. I found your cache but it was in bad shape so I went ahead and fixed her up a bit. Cheers!" How does that bring more harm than good? 1) it saves the CO a trip when the community comes together and helps each other out by keeping the game moving along, and 2) you found the cache, and replaced the broken cache with a not broken one and putting it back in it's original spot. How is that harming anything?

 

AMEN. A lot of trolls on here don't actually go out finding caches they just like sitting on the forum talking about how bad COs are for having lives and not rushing out IMMEDIATELY to sort out a cache.

[+hukilaulau]

 

And with that logic, assuming that the CO went MIA, and left his Tupperware container behind, and no one emails the CO, CO doesn't respond to reviewer threatening to archive the cache, cache gets archived anyway...who cleans up the CO's mess he left behind? No one.

 

 

I will! Over the years I have picked up broken containers with a long history of problems with with no response from the owner and written a NA log. Every time I've done that the cache has been archived.

I've also picked up film can throw downs left in obvious spots when the original cache was clearly intended to be something special in some way. NA logs that always get the attention of a reviewer. I know some people disapprove of this, but I believe I am being a good custodian of the game.

[+bflentje]

If you're only in it for numbers, get a new hobby. To be perfectly frank - no one gives a rat's 4$$ how many smiley faces you have on a website they've never heard of, playing a game that, when explained, sounds ridiculous... JM2C!

 

Your two cents is pretty useless, and combative and offensive to me.

 

Yea, I'm combative...

 

I've said nothing offensive. If you're referring specifically to the last statement, being that you've been around geocaching for 12ish years, I'm more than certain that there have been times when people have looked at you sideways when you've explained it to them. I can see how my choice of words could be interpreted as insulting the game, but that is far from what I was trying to do.

 

Where do you get off telling people to get a new hobby if they're in it for the numbers? Who put you in charge. Only 149 finds in 17 years, I think YOU should get a new hobby because you don't look committed to the game

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Sadly, this seems to be what geocaching has come to: numbers. I think it can be fun for some to reach milestone or be able to log a challenge cache but then situations like this happen. I will admit, when I was a new cacher and stumbled upon a broken cache with no lid and only a bag with a wet log, I did replace that but then later realized how that can bring more harm then good. I kinda wish there could be a disclaimer thrown out somewhere on geocaching.com to not put throwdowns or replace unless permission is granted but I don't know how well that would work.

 

Yeah, darn this game. It's all about the numbers these days. Sheesh. I tell ya.

 

The point of Geocaching is FINDING CACHES.

 

Maybe the point of Geocaching, for you, is to simply find caches. For some, the point is not to find a cache, any cache, as long as it increments ones find count. There are actually a lot of geocachers that would gladly find a handful of caches that demonstrate some creativity, are well maintained, and are located in an interesting much more than finding 100 or more caches that have no redeeming quality other than it increments ones find count.

 

 

[+fizzymagic]

First: I don't do power trails. I hate power trails -- I tried twice and both times it was mind-numbing, repetitive, busy work with no time to interact with my friends. Not my cup of tea at all.

 

But: other people seem to love them, and I have no right to insist that everyone cache according to what I like. If people like power trails, more power (!) to them. As long as I can filter them out, I am content to live and let live.

 

It's clear that the PT community has developed standards for how PTs are to be done that are different from the standards of how other caches are done. Once again, that is perfectly fine. Cut-and-paste logs, throwdowns, etc. are part of the power-trail ethos, and within that context they are fine with me.

 

I now go to pretty great lengths to place my caches so that they won't become perceived as part of a power trail. It's not terribly difficult; I had a couple that were swarmed by PT caches, so I archived them since I personally do not enjoy getting cut-and-paste logs on my caches.

 

The only potential problem here is with throwdowns. But I don't think it is such a big deal. In my experience, the overlap between PT cachers and cachers who do my caches is sufficiently small that I don't worry about them on my caches, and they are pretty rare on caches that I seek. If, as a CO, you have a cache that is frequented by PT cachers, it might be wise to put a note on the cache page asking that throwdowns not be placed. Also, if you find a cache and a throwdown for it, I'd remove the throwdown and write in my log that I did so.

 

Remember: it's the CO's cache. IMO, if they want to allow throwdowns, that is within their rights. If they don't care, then that is also within their rights. If they really don't want them, they can easily say so. As with the whole maintenance issue, they are under no obligation to make your caching experience at their cache exactly how you want it to be.

 

TL;DR: Live and let live.

[+SerenitySearchers]

Very well stated - "Fizzymagic"

[+L0ne.R]

 

Remember: it's the CO's cache. IMO, if they want to allow throwdowns, that is within their rights. If they don't care, then that is also within their rights. If they really don't want them, they can easily say so. As with the whole maintenance issue, they are under no obligation to make your caching experience at their cache exactly how you want it to be.

 

TL;DR: Live and let live.

 

I agree with what you said about PTs being mind-numbing work, and the part about archiving your own caches when they got swallowed up by a PT. I would too. And I would never hide a cache on a trail that PTs even if a spot opened up. I don't want the cut n paste logs thanking the PT owner.

 

Would a reviewer publish a cache if the hider acknowledged that their maintenance plan was to allow throwdowns?

 

I don't think a CO can choose to allow throwdowns. Well, not without checking the throwdown.

 

"Cache owners are responsible for maintenance. When you are aware of throwdowns, check if your cache is still there and remove the throwdown cache. Consider disabling the cache until you can remove the throwdown or replace the original cache."

I have seen a reviewer archive a cache after a throwdown. The easy cache had a row of DNFs, no response from the CO, an NM (from me)...no response, an NA (from me), then reviewer disable...no response. Then a few days later someone threw down a cache and in their log told the CO to OM and enable the cache. The CO did. The reviewer disabled it again, asking the CO to check the throwdown. He never did. The cache was archived by the reviewer 4 weeks later.

 

If it's OK for a CO to allow throwdowns, s/he would cover an entire towns/cities/counties/states with caches that they never intend to maintain and ask others to throwdown caches when needed. I suppose he could do this and if no one calls him out then it's "allowed".

[+UnHoly453]

If you're only in it for numbers, get a new hobby. To be perfectly frank - no one gives a rat's 4$$ how many smiley faces you have on a website they've never heard of, playing a game that, when explained, sounds ridiculous... JM2C!

 

Your two cents is pretty useless, and combative and offensive to me.

 

Yea, I'm combative...

 

I've said nothing offensive. If you're referring specifically to the last statement, being that you've been around geocaching for 12ish years, I'm more than certain that there have been times when people have looked at you sideways when you've explained it to them. I can see how my choice of words could be interpreted as insulting the game, but that is far from what I was trying to do.

 

Where do you get off telling people to get a new hobby if they're in it for the numbers? Who put you in charge. Only 149 finds in 17 years, I think YOU should get a new hobby because you don't look committed to the game

 

Pretty sure, even in this thread, I mentioned that I had been away from it for a long time, and when I got into it (in 2003, at 12 years old, with my father) I didn't always log my finds.. and when I was in my teens, when I would go out, I would never log my finds, as I was much more of a casual cacher, and just went as more of a guest with my father.