Letterbox Hybrid Caches

[+Cachemarkers]

I have just discovered letterboxing and disagree that it is a geocache with a stamp. The directions to find a cache have taken me to some amazing places and in more of a meandering way. I hope these caches don't go away.

 

I’ve been away for a day and a half and had hoped a common sense solution to allowing YSMs to continue in their current format would have been achieved on my return. Sadly, that would not appear to be the case.

As a UK cacher since 2001, I have seen numerous changes in the caching world. Some, clearly needed to be implemented, whilst other changes have been retrograde steps to say the least.

I’m not particularly interested in numbers, ftfs, streaks, numbers of caches found in a day, urban caches, nanos etc. but will be out at least a couple of times most weeks and have logged 3,345 finds (including 281 YSMs) and 175 hides. If people are keen on any/all of the above aspects of caching that’s fine by me, it doesn’t interfere with my life.

As far as the YSM is concerned, to me, this is clearly not a locationless cache as they all have a well researched and interesting location (with the odd exception). If you don’t want to find and log them or aren’t interested that’s fine by me as well. If you’re not from the UK I don’t see this has any impact on you anyway. This is only a hobby at the end of the day and there’s enough conflict in the world already!!!

 

The geocaching website states “Geocaches can be found all over the world. It is common for geocachers to hide caches in locations that are important to them, reflecting a special interest or skill of the cache owner. These locations can be quite diverse. They may be at your local park, at the end of a long hike, underwater or on the side of a city street.”

 

The concept of the YSM appears to fit this concept on most if not all levels (which can’t be said for a lot of caches out there). Whether it’s classified as a virtual, locationless, moves around or whatever appears to me on the face of it a pointless debate. It’s out there being enjoyed by many cachers and has excellent support from the Ye Ole Survey Monument website. Clearly, they wouldn’t be allowed now as the rules are different but to deny it’s continuing existence given the amount of support it receives is sad indeed.

The demise of GC45CC is a bit like giving a child a toy which gives him/her a lot of enjoyment then snatching it away from them with no rational explanation.

 

If we’re in the mood for change can I offer my the following for consideration –

1. No cache to be placed within 50 metres of a house as this can cause a lot of concern for people.

2. All caches to be at least 400 metres apart. This gives people a chance to enjoy their surroundings rather than spend their life peering at a gps/phone.

3. No cache container to be less than 100ml and have a log book that can be written on.

4. Letterbox caches to be discontinued. It’s just a normal cache with a stamp that no-one uses anyway.

 

As the old cartoon ending said “That’s all folks”. A huge thanks must go to Out for The Hunt for well researched locations. Top man.

 

Thank you for reading this, from a very disappointed (ex?) cacher.

[+cerberus1]

I have just discovered letterboxing and disagree that it is a geocache with a stamp. The directions to find a cache have taken me to some amazing places and in more of a meandering way. I hope these caches don't go away.

OT, but sorry, the only requirement for a letterbox is it must have a stamp, a log, and require GPS usage somewhere.

- A geocache with a stamp...

Some we found had a clue to a final from the posted coordinates, but not all.

The way I understand it (chat at Events), some we found no longer have that stamp.

[+narcissa]

I have just discovered letterboxing and disagree that it is a geocache with a stamp. The directions to find a cache have taken me to some amazing places and in more of a meandering way. I hope these caches don't go away.

OT, but sorry, the only requirement for a letterbox is it must have a stamp, a log, and require GPS usage somewhere.

- A geocache with a stamp...

Some we found had a clue to a final from the posted coordinates, but not all.

The way I understand it (chat at Events), some we found no longer have that stamp.

 

The stamps disappear because people think they're swag.

 

I wish letterbox hybrids were required to include a mix of GPS use and letterbox-style instructions.

[Keystone]

I split the above posts off into their own thread, in order to keep another thread from going off-topic.

 

The presence of a letterboxing stamp is the distinguishing characteristic of a letterbox hybrid cache ("LBH"). If there is no stamp, it cannot be an LBH. If it does have a stamp, it must be an LBH.

 

The stated purpose for developing this cache type was to call out the presence of the stamp, so that people wouldn't treat it as a trade item. It was also hoped that the cache type would promote cross-listing of containers listed on letterboxing websites. Had "cache attributes" existed in 2001, it's likely that "has a letterboxing stamp" would just be a cache attribute that could be applied to any physical cache type.

 

So, you could have a "traditional" LBH (container located at posted coordinates). You could also have a "multicache" LBH, or a "mystery cache" LBH, either of which may involve the use of letterboxing-style clues as part of the hunt. Note that, for all LBH caches, GPS use must be an integral part of the hunt. This means that meaningful use of coordinates (i.e., not just for the parking lot) is required at some point. It is fine to have letterboxing clues leading to a container with the coordinates for the final cache and log, or to begin with a container found using coordinates, where letterboxing clues can be found to lead finders to the final. Or, letterboxing clues can be presented as an alternative to the coordinates provided.

 

One can also use letterboxing clues in a mystery cache or multicache, provided that GPS use is involved somewhere along the way. But, if it has no stamp, it can't be listed as an LBH despite the clue style.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Keystone

[+geodarts]

Describing a letterbox hybrid as a "geocache with a stamp" is like saying a traditional geocache is a "container with a log." Yes. But it's all in the details and how much care is put into it.

 

There are letterboxes hybrids with store-bought stamps at the coordinates. There are traditionals that are nothing more than a film can in a lamppost. There are letterbox hybrids that are cross-listed on Atlas, with hand carved or thematic custom made stamps, a good logbook, and an interesting set of clues. There are traditionals placed in interesting locations with good containers. Either end of the spectrum qualifies, but the basic description does not define my interest in either geocaching or letterboxing - or how hybrids can enhance both games.

Edited May 4, 2017 by geodarts

[fendmar]

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

[+narcissa]

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

 

Be reasonable. A personalized stamp is equivalent to a written name and date. Many geocachers use stamps to log geocaches.

[+niraD]

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

Be reasonable. A personalized stamp is equivalent to a written name and date. Many geocachers use stamps to log geocaches.

And some of us who don't normally use stamps to sign geocache logs will both sign and stamp an LBH log.

[+narcissa]

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

Be reasonable. A personalized stamp is equivalent to a written name and date. Many geocachers use stamps to log geocaches.

And some of us who don't normally use stamps to sign geocache logs will both sign and stamp an LBH log.

 

Yeah, my stamp is just my name, so I always add the date and a note when I use it.

[+cerberus1]

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

Be reasonable. A personalized stamp is equivalent to a written name and date. Many geocachers use stamps to log geocaches.

And some of us who don't normally use stamps to sign geocache logs will both sign and stamp an LBH log.

+1

We both use our custom stamps and sign the log.

 

Though we've never used a sig stamp for caches, we recognize many do.

- And find them more agreeable than having stickers scatter all over GZ, when unrolling a log, or opening a log book.

[+geodarts]

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

 

I'll leave the philosophical ramifications of this to others, but in my hybrids I have two logbooks - one for geocaching and one for letterboxing - with separate stash notes in separate bags. I started doing it that way to help protect the stamp. Geocachers did not necessarily need to stamp and letterboxes did not need to see the caching logs. But if someone claimed a find here and simply stamped the log, it would not bother me on the slightest. That's what makes the cache a hybrid. It can accommodate either game - or both.

 

I don't think there is anything talismanic about either method. There are letterboxes that only have a carved stamp for your personal book. And some people stamp geocaches.

 

My next cache, which will be placed when time, weather, and tides permit, is a LBH that is based upon Viking exploration with a custom made thematic stamp and a twist at the end. It has a single logbook. Since you will have to kayak or canoe (or use a longboat) to get it, I am assuming that there is less potential for the stamp to be confused with a trade item. If you are a geocacher you will be able to log it as a geocache. If you are a letterboxer you will be able to log it as a letterbox. And if you do both, it will be cross-listed.

[fendmar]

The two logbook approach is interesting

 

It can be a bit annoying to open a logbook and see that the letterboxers have obliterated all the geocachers sigs with a huge stamp.

[+narcissa]

The two logbook approach is interesting

 

It can be a bit annoying to open a logbook and see that the letterboxers have obliterated all the geocachers sigs with a huge stamp.

 

Unlikely to happen when there's a nice big logbook.

[+L0ne.R]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

[+narcissa]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

 

Kill all the geocaches.

[+colleda]

The two logbook approach is interesting

 

It can be a bit annoying to open a logbook and see that the letterboxers have obliterated all the geocachers sigs with a huge stamp.

I had a LBH. It was a two end container. One end with a log book (and swag) for traditional signing and the other end containing a stamp and log book for stampers. The only problem was that a few finders stamped the log book with the stamp in the cache most likely not realising they were supposed to use a stamp of their own. LBHs are fairly rare in these parts.

[+L0ne.R]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

 

Kill all the geocaches.

 

That's rather harsh. I'm sorry you feel that way.

[+Manville Possum]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

 

No, they are not a failed experiment. Waymarking is a failed experiment, but LBH's are a interesting type of Geocache in a World of micro LPC's.

[+niraD]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

Yeah, the type could be converted to an attribute, and then the existing LBH caches could be converted to traditional, multi, or mystery/puzzle caches (depending on how the LBH cache was implemented) with the attribute.

 

But there would be an uproar from many who lost the type icon from their stats. And Groundspeak would have to be careful about the migration of beloved LBH caches with absent/deceased/inattentive owners.

[+L0ne.R]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

 

No, they are not a failed experiment. Waymarking is a failed experiment, but LBH's are a interesting type of Geocache in a World of micro LPC's.

 

Do you care about the stamp?

[+Manville Possum]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

 

No, they are not a failed experiment. Waymarking is a failed experiment, but LBH's are a interesting type of Geocache in a World of micro LPC's.

 

Do you care about the stamp?

 

Yes, I do care about the stamp, just as much as the icon. Truth is, I have a LBH in the works and a custom stamp to go in it. I've almost gave up on new cache placements, but I don't own a LBH and they are a rare cache type that deserves a nice placement and not stuffed under a lamp skirt.

[+geodarts]

Do you care about the stamp?

 

Many of us do. I also letterbox from time to time and appreciate that LBH caches were developed to provide a bridge to that game. I am not good carver but I use custom themed stamps in my hybrid caches that are sometimes made from the art I submit.

 

While I have found some hybrids with cheap store bought stamps (or something left over from a kid's art supply kit) that seem to be an afterthought, this does not lead me to conclude that hybrids should be grandfathered any more than poorly done caches of any type would lead to the same conclusion.

[+narcissa]

Do you care about the stamp?

 

Many of us do. I also letterbox from time to time and appreciate that LBH caches were developed to provide a bridge to that game. I am not good carver but I use custom themed stamps in my hybrid caches that are sometimes made from the art I submit.

 

While I have found some hybrids with cheap store bought stamps (or something left over from a kid's art supply kit) that seem to be an afterthought, this does not lead me to conclude that hybrids should be grandfathered any more than poorly done caches of any type would lead to the same conclusion.

 

We have homemade stamps for letterbox hybrids. There aren't many of them around, but when we travel we will sometimes make them a target cache because it's a little bit more interesting than a traditional.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

 

The difference is that for a LBH cache, the cache must contain a stamp, which can be used to stamp a personal stamp book. If you have a personal stamp, you can it to stamp the geocache log sheet. The stamp *in* the cache makes it a LBH.

[+coachstahly]

Personally I think the LBH type should be grandfathered. It's a confusing, failed experiment. They are covetted for the icon, for grid filling and qualifying for challenges. Do people really care about the stamp?

I LOVE the stamps. I keep a LBH notebook that contains all the imprints of stamps I've found in caches and am disappointed when the LBH is missing the stamp. I even carry my own ink pad with me for those LBHs that might only have a stamp. I found an old one near St. Louis last month and saw some imprints of the stamp and was bummed that I couldn't get one for my notebook because it wasn't there. Although I prefer a more traditional LBH, I still enjoy the ones that are at the posted coordinates. I own 5 LBHs (adopted 2 of them) and all are store bought stamps but I themed the cache and the description around the stamps. I also own a LBH challenge that has a stamp inside tied directly into the challenge.

 

I have my own stamp I only use for other LBHs as well.

 

This LBH is my first one and uses a store bought stamp (Michael's), which I used as the theme for the LBH.

Edited May 5, 2017 by coachstahly

[+fbingha]

Look at my profile, I've made a decision that I will only hide letterbox hybrids and have about twenty of them now.

The letterbox hybrid cache is the only reason I continue to hide caches, otherwise I would have archived everything and become a only a letterboxer. It is the only saving grace for me as Groundspeak continues to make decisions that promote the selfishness of finders.

 

All of mine are hand carved and I've become quite proficient at carving. By putting the investment in to learning how to carve intricate designs and putting a lot of them out locally, I feel I have put out something that others really do enjoy.

 

I respect the distinct icon because it seems to keep some finders away, finders whom are more likely to take the stamp.

[+narcissa]

Look at my profile, I've made a decision that I will only hide letterbox hybrids and have about twenty of them now.

The letterbox hybrid cache is the only reason I continue to hide caches, otherwise I would have archived everything and become a only a letterboxer. It is the only saving grace for me as Groundspeak continues to make decisions that promote the selfishness of finders.

 

All of mine are hand carved and I've become quite proficient at carving. By putting the investment in to learning how to carve intricate designs and putting a lot of them out locally, I feel I have put out something that others really do enjoy.

 

I respect the distinct icon because it seems to keep some finders away, finders whom are more likely to take the stamp.

 

This looks awesome. I hope some day I can travel to California and find some of them. I'm going to show my husband, who loves LBHs.

[+Cachemarkers]

What a great idea! I would love to try to find this! (hopefully you are somewhat nearby I live in an area that is heavily into Vikings (not even MN) so something like this would be fun to hide here too. I won't copy you though. I like the idea of the two logbooks also. Perhaps I have found just some really good LBH caches because it has added a whole new thrill to geocaching for me. Sorry people are so angry about this, but I hope they don't go away.

 

Does any of this mean that if you are stamping the logbooks then you are letterboxing and not geocaching? Since the stamp seems to be the important distinction then to be geocaching you must sign the logbooks not stamp them.

 

I'll leave the philosophical ramifications of this to others, but in my hybrids I have two logbooks - one for geocaching and one for letterboxing - with separate stash notes in separate bags. I started doing it that way to help protect the stamp. Geocachers did not necessarily need to stamp and letterboxes did not need to see the caching logs. But if someone claimed a find here and simply stamped the log, it would not bother me on the slightest. That's what makes the cache a hybrid. It can accommodate either game - or both.

 

I don't think there is anything talismanic about either method. There are letterboxes that only have a carved stamp for your personal book. And some people stamp geocaches.

 

My next cache, which will be placed when time, weather, and tides permit, is a LBH that is based upon Viking exploration with a custom made thematic stamp and a twist at the end. It has a single logbook. Since you will have to kayak or canoe (or use a longboat) to get it, I am assuming that there is less potential for the stamp to be confused with a trade item. If you are a geocacher you will be able to log it as a geocache. If you are a letterboxer you will be able to log it as a letterbox. And if you do both, it will be cross-listed.

[+SeattleWayne]

I seek out the Letterboxes just for the icon and I have no intentions of using the stamp. I have a couple of friends who love to Letterbox so we find them when the three of us go Geocaching. I'm glad it's around, honestly.

[+eigengott]

I have just discovered letterboxing and disagree that it is a geocache with a stamp.

 

Let me introduce you to letterbox style logging. It's quite clever and actually superior to geocache style logging, as it removes most causes of possible logging disputes.

 

Material needed: two individual stamps, two logbooks. Every letterbox has a logbook and an individual stamp inside. Every letterboxer has a personal logbook and an individual stamp. When she finds the letterbox, she puts her stamp into the box's logbook. And the box's stamp into her personal logbook.

 

This way she can alsways prove that she's actually found a particular letterbox, as she has that individual box's stamp in her personal logbook. This even works when the original letterbox goes missing. Also everyone visiting the letterbox can see, that she was there as it has her individual stamp inside the box's logbook.

 

As there is already the requirement of a logbook inside a geocache, the only thing missing for letterbox style logging is an individual stamp. Put such a stamp in a geocache and you have a letterbox hybrid.

 

While individual stamp is the technical term, in reality these can be small pieces of art, adding a lot to the appeal of letterboxes and letterbox hybrids.

 

(Not relevant to this discussion but for the record: Like any other geocache there's the requirement of exact coordinates, so you can use GPS to find it. That's why it's a letterbox hybrid, not a plain letterbox. Of course you could additionally provide letterbox style clues in the geocache listing. Or use waypoint projections from well defined locations (like a statue, historical marker etc.), which works both with GPS and compass/pace counting.)

[+roxetak]

When I must use gps to find a geocache. It is just traditional geocache, mystery or multicache. I hope that letterbox hybrid was a special type of geaocache, which you can find without gps. It was a walk in nature. Kind of geocache where you must read a listing. And be sharp, observant to see things around. Because almost nobody, no one read it. This type of geocache letterbox hybrid, and this kind of geocaching got a charm, glamor.

 

Now I thing that everything is about a money and business. Geocaching lose glamor for me.

I think that this rules kill next type of geocache. R.I.P. letterbox hybrid.

Simply letterbox is dead.

Edited May 17, 2017 by roxetak

[Keystone]

To clarify, there have been no fundamental changes in the listing guidelines governing Letterbox Hybrid caches. See my post #4. The reasons for the separate cache type had very little to do with "everything is about a money and business." It was more like, "how do we let people know not to take the cool stamp as a trade item?"

[+narcissa]

When I must use gps to find a geocache. It is just traditional geocache, mystery or multicache. I hope that letterbox hybrid was a special type of geaocache, which you can find without gps. It was a walk in nature. Kind of geocache where you must read a listing. And be sharp, observant to see things around. Because almost nobody, no one read it. This type of geocache letterbox hybrid, and this kind of geocaching got a charm, glamor.

 

Now I thing that everything is about a money and business. Geocaching lose glamor for me.

I think that this rules kill next type of geocache. R.I.P. letterbox hybrid.

Simply letterbox is dead.

 

What? Letterbox hybrid geocaches always required a GPS.

 

True letterboxing is a different game and you can still play it if you want.

[+L0ne.R]

When I must use gps to find a geocache. It is just traditional geocache, mystery or multicache. I hope that letterbox hybrid was a special type of geaocache, which you can find without gps. It was a walk in nature. Kind of geocache where you must read a listing. And be sharp, observant to see things around. Because almost nobody, no one read it. This type of geocache letterbox hybrid, and this kind of geocaching got a charm, glamor.

 

Now I thing that everything is about a money and business. Geocaching lose glamor for me.

I think that this rules kill next type of geocache. R.I.P. letterbox hybrid.

Simply letterbox is dead.

 

You can still play the game you envision. No need for a stamp.

Combine GPS use with directions.

Submit the cache as a Mystery/Puzzle cache.

Here's an example