Puget Sound Geo Hot Potato

1.8k · September 28, 2002

I saw a thread on the Travel Bug Groundspeak forum pointing to this page and thought this might be something we'd like to try a variation of in the Puget Sound area.

I've posted my very early first crack at the rules , based on those at the link above.

What do y'all think? Interested?

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

September 28, 2002

That looks awesome!

I'm impressed by the patience and planning involved in setting the whole thing up. I hope that something like that gets set up here in portland. eventually, we could do a whole OR vs. WA game, although us oregonians would be at an advantage as portland is located so close to the border.

the portland version of this game would obviously be centered around eastside vs. westside, but i'm thinking that the westside would have the advantage for some reason...

great job, travis! kinda makes me wish i was a seattlite.

September 28, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by oregone:
...eventually, we could do a whole OR vs. WA game, although us oregonians would be at an advantage as portland is located so close to the border.

the portland version of this game would obviously be centered around eastside vs. westside, but i'm thinking that the westside would have the advantage for some reason...

Well, Travis and Oregone,

1) TravisL, This is a WAY cool idea!

2) Oregone, we even like the west vs. east PDX thing...

3) Maybe you think the westside has the advantage because there are more caches over that direction or more computer geeks live there. But don't underestimate we eastside computer geeks; we are so busy finding caches we almost forget to plant 'em!

Hey Bodoni, Igor, Matt and Laura, et al, you gonna back us up? We say 'bring it on!'

--dasein

September 28, 2002

can't wait to see what the teams are. Although I have a sneeking suspicion it will be bubble_luscious and I vs either PDX or Puget Sound. As we are down here in our own little geo island.

September 28, 2002

can't wait to see what the teams are. Although I have a sneeking suspicion it will be bubble_luscious and I vs either PDX or Puget Sound. As we are down here in our own little geo island.

September 28, 2002

This sounds really cool!

We need to do this in Portland too.

Oregone's idea for east vs. west would work out well, if the east-siders aren't too afraid

So when do we start?

September 28, 2002

This sounds really cool!

We need to do this in Portland too.

Oregone's idea for east vs. west would work out well, if the east-siders aren't too afraid

So when do we start?

1.8k · September 28, 2002

Thanks. Between here and the GecachingWA mailing list, I've gotten a lot of positive comments.

And Oregone... I was thinking about your February visit today when Dragonfli dragged me along to IKEA. I was able to talk her into helping me hit two caches and a lunch of swedish meatballs in exchange.

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

September 28, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by travisl:

And Oregone... I was thinking about your [february visit] today when Dragonfli dragged me along to IKEA. I was able to talk her into helping me hit two caches and a lunch of swedish meatballs in exchange.

Thanks for that trip down memory lane. I can't tell you enough how much i disliked going to the super-crowded megastore known as IKEA. Oh yeah, and great sig line, travisl.

Hey, the more i check out your hot potato page, the cooler i think it is. It seems you've covered everything with the rules. But what does the travel bug look like? can it fit in microcaches? and who's the referee? and where did you find that cool map? is there a web-page that specifically outlines the progress of the game?

i really hope this happens in portland. some computer-savvy geocacher will surely pick up on it, i'm sure.

1.8k · September 28, 2002

As I mention on the page, it's still in the ''what if'' stage. I haven't even bought the travel bug yet (although I'm visuallizing it attached to a small stuffed football or a Mr. Potato Head McToy).

I'd be willing to ref the first 100 day round.

I built the maps using MS MapPoint 2001. The tough part was tracing the curvy lines of the county borders in the northwest and southwest sides, and figuring out what to do with the southeast corner (solution: chop it off).

I'd use the bug's web page to show the progress of the game while tying it to a map I'd build, much like I've done with my family of ducks.

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

October 7, 2002

Has this happened yet?

1.8k · October 9, 2002

Not yet -- I've had some family medical situations to attend to -- but I plan on releasing it next weekend. I've tweaked the rules page tonight (no rules changes!), and added a page with some general info. The travel bug page is TBA0C, but I'm awaiting confirmation that the original tag is indeed MIA.

Stay tuned...

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

1.8k · October 9, 2002

Yay! The original bug (the Baseball Bug) was recovered last weekend. My panic was for naught. Unfortunately, I need to snag another travel bug tag. But my joy that my Baseball Bug isn't lost in the wilds of Connecticut is greater than this minor Hot Potato setback.

Stay tuned...

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

1.8k · October 21, 2002

(crossposted to the geocachingWA mailing list)

I've had the hot potato ready for about a week now, but I don't see any time in the near future that I'm going to make it up to the line.

Can anybody pick up the potato from a cache in the south sound (just tell me where) and place it in Secret Cache on Mercer Island? Then the game can begin!

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

1.8k · October 21, 2002

Kitelady's graciously agreed to pick it up. Game should start soon!

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

October 21, 2002

I'm up for that. I'm planning a new cache shortly which could be a goal of some sort for the east side. So in a since bring it don't sing it

October 21, 2002

1.8k · October 23, 2002

Forgive me if I did something dumb, 'cause I'm not too familiar with the local geography. I probably included some weird spots I shouldn't have.

The dividing line between Team East and Team West:

Beginning at the intersection of N 46° and the Washington/Oregon border, southward along the Washington/Oregon border to the Columbia/Multnomah County Border, then Westward along the southern border of Columbia County to the intersection of Columbia, Multnomah, and Washington Counties, then southward along the western border of Multnomah County to Interstate 5, then southward along Interstate 5 to N 45.25° (N 45° 15').

The boundary:

Beginning at the intersection of N 46° and the Washington/Oregon border, northwesterly along the Washington/Oregon border to the Columbia/Clatsop county border, then south along the west border of Columbia County, then southeasterly along US-26 to State Route 47, then southward along SR-47 to N 45.25° (N 45° 15'), then due east to W 122.249°, then due north to the intersection of Multnomah (OR), Clark (WA), and Skamania (WA) Counties, then northward along the eastern border of Clark County to N 46°, then due west to the Washington/Oregon border.

FWIW, the County Corner cache just misses, as does Fish Ladder Cache. X Marks the Spot Again is just in West's territory by less than a few yards, and that's only if my map is accurate. Middle of the Road (aka 3-county corner) appears to be in East territory.

If one of you Portlanders wants the MapPoint .ptm file or a .gif of a certain section, let me know.

It's just a FWIW... take it or leave it or tweak it.

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

1.8k · October 23, 2002

Oh -- and I've got to ask... what's the reason for the ''cache free zone'' along the Multnomah/Washington county border, between Forest Park and US 26? It's the stair-step area in the red dividing line in the map above. Seems like an odd gap.

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

October 24, 2002

quote:
How about this for you Portlanders?

The only thought I had was that the Willamette River might make a better dividing line, as it is currently the geographical reference point that determines whether you live on a NW/SW or NE/SE street. I would then just extend it north into the Columbia.

As for that big cache free space, I don't have a real good explanation, other than it is very hilly terrain, and I don't know of any parks over there other than Forest Park. Maybe someone on the west side has a better answer.

October 24, 2002

Actually the dividing line between NW/SW and NE/SE is Williams Ave. Since the Willamette River takes and turn around St. Johns (North Portland). But the river is the common reference when people talk about the westside or the eastside.

Life is as much a discovery of the journey, as it is a journey of discovery...

**Namaste**

1.8k · October 24, 2002

I'd originally planned to use the river as the dividing line, until I plotted all the caches on there. The west side of the river is a lot more cache-heavy than the east.

Never having played this, I don't know if cache density makes much difference, but I suspect it's a pretty good metric of where the cachers are.

It probably makes more sense, though, to use the river, since it seems to be the natural boundary, and there won't be a problem of not having enough caches to place it in. If you do that, though, I'd expect the West team to have an advantage in it's higher population.

YMMV.

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

1.8k · October 27, 2002

... has been released! It's in Island Crest Cache on Mercer Island. When it gets its first move, one of the two teams will start accumulating points.

Let the games begin!

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

October 27, 2002

Cut out all of Columbia County (in OR) and everything in WA except the Clark County Urban growth boundary (I'm assuming that's what that dotted boundary is) and making it a north/south game. Maybe use US26 the boundary on the eastside and TV Hwy as the boundary on the westside?

It would be kinda tough to use the Willamette as the boundary in an east/west game, as travisl says, because of the difference in amount of caches. Guess we'll have to see how the Puget Sound game goes. It sounds very cool, and i'll be watching it as it progresses.

Oh yeah, and i think that cache-free zone is largely private property: Dairy farms, gravel quarries, private forest lands, and McMansion-style hobby farms and mini-ranches. I did find a good place for one out there the other day and plan on placing it near the beginning of the year.

October 27, 2002

I'm not understanding how having more/less caches on one side effects much. You're only trying to get it to one cache. Other than having more so "new finds" can occure more often. Am I not seeing something obvious? Everyone's always making fun of east vs west side portland cachers down here, so I think that'd probably better. Just a thought.

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

When a man found it, he hid it again..." Mt. 13:44

October 27, 2002

As I read the rules, the larger number of caches on the west side should be a disadvantage to the west siders... you are trying to keep the potato in the opposing team's area as long as possible.

As a west sider, I don't mind this at all... after all, we are the better cachers

I also don't see why so much of WA would be included... only the 'couv area! Don't want to wander too far away from home

October 27, 2002

On a Portland east vs west geo hotpotato, we agree to not include Columbia county. Also agree that the dividing line should be the Willamette River. If you live in PDX, you are intimately aware of this.

If this game turns out to be east vs. west and so many more caches are on the west side of the Willamette River, would it be fair to include Vancouver on the eastside team? Or was this implied, since Vancouver is east of where the Willamette meets the Columbia? Besides having more caches than the east side, there also seems to be more cachers on the westside (if we're not mistaken). Wouldn't number of cachers on each team play a more important role than the number of caches in a team's area? Straighten out my head if I'm not grasping the concept.

--lauak of dasein

1.8k · October 27, 2002

The dividing line between Team East and Team West:

Beginning at the intersection of the Washington/Oregon border and the Columbia/Multnomah County Border, southward along the Columbia River to the mouth of the Willamette River, then southward along the Willamette River to the Interstate 5 crossing near Wilsonville, then southward along Interstate 5 to N 45.25° (N 45° 15').

The boundary:

Beginning at the intersection of the Washington/Oregon border and the Columbia/Multnomah County Border, westward along the Columbia/Multnomah County border, then northwestward along the Columbia/Washington County border to the northeast corner of Washington County (near Rim Road), then on a straight line to the southeastern intersection of State Route 47 and US-26, then southward along SR-47 to N 45.25° (N 45° 15'), then due east to W 122.249°, then due north to the intersection of Multnomah (OR), Clark (WA), and Skamania (WA) Counties, then on a straight line to the intersection of NE 119th St and NE 182nd Ave in Brush Prairie, then on a straight line to the intersection of NE 179th St and NE 72nd Ave in Manor, then west along NE179th street, extended to the Columbia River, then south along the Columbia River to the start point.

(Oregone -- the area you thought was an urban growth boundary is what MapPoint calls a ''High Detail Route Area'' boundary. I dunno what it really is.)

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

October 28, 2002

As i've said before, i think we should see how the Puget Sound game goes before we rush to any decisions.

But we all know how this is going to end up: eastsiders vs. westsiders. It's how it has always been, and it's how it always shall be.

I personally think that all of those bmw-driving, mansion-owning, freeway-loving, mall-shopping, four-car-garage-owning, magellan-using, nature-park-loving, tree-hugging, PBR-disliking, cow-tipping, frequent-flying, veal-eating, intel-working, hair-dying, child-having, corgi-owning, button-pushing, hawaii-vacationing, digital-cable-subscribing, pseudo-CALIFORNIANS that describe themselves as living west of the Willamette don't have a chance against us non-hyphen-using eastsiders.

don't make me offer examples as to why.

October 28, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by oregone:
As i've said before, i think we should see how the Puget Sound game goes before we rush to any decisions.

Amen!

quote:
Originally posted by oregone:
But we all know how this is going to end up: eastsiders vs. westsiders. It's how it has always been, and it's how it always shall be.

Double amen!

quote:
Originally posted by oregone:
I personally think that all of those bmw-driving, mansion-owning, freeway-loving, mall-shopping...

Amen again, brother Oregone!

October 28, 2002

..after looking at the revised proposed map again, what if the dividing line between east and west followed the Willamette south from the Columbia to where I-5 crosses the Willamette, then followed I-5 south to Wilsonville (as opposed to following the Willamette east toward Oregon City).

But like Oregone said, let's not jump the gun yet and see how things go for a while up north. I'm all for that.

--laurak of dasein

October 28, 2002

quote:
I personally think that all of those bmw-driving, mansion-owning, freeway-loving, mall-shopping, four-car-garage-owning, magellan-using, nature-park-loving, tree-hugging, PBR-disliking, cow-tipping, frequent-flying, veal-eating, intel-working, hair-dying, child-having, corgi-owning, button-pushing, hawaii-vacationing, digital-cable-subscribing, pseudo-CALIFORNIANS that describe themselves as living west of the Willamette don't have a chance against us non-hyphen-using eastsiders.

don't make me offer examples as to why.

all rights reserved, all wrongs reversed

Now I'm being insulted! I would never own a corgi.

Peace through superior firepower

October 28, 2002

I'm-not-sure-what-you-mean-Oregone-but-this-sounds-like-a-great-idea-we're-in. Westside-rules-.-------

Can't complain, no one listens anyway.

October 28, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by The Quantum Mechanic:

quote:
I personally think that all of those bmw-driving, mansion-owning, freeway-loving, mall-shopping, four-car-garage-owning, magellan-using, nature-park-loving, tree-hugging, PBR-disliking, cow-tipping, frequent-flying, veal-eating, intel-working, hair-dying, child-having, corgi-owning, button-pushing, hawaii-vacationing, digital-cable-subscribing, pseudo-CALIFORNIANS that describe themselves as living west of the Willamette don't have a chance against us non-hyphen-using eastsiders.

don't make me offer examples as to why.

all rights reserved, all wrongs reversed

Now I'm being insulted! I would never own a corgi.

Isn't a corgi one of those little cast-iron toy cars from the UK? Corgi

If that's what you mean, then I do own some Star Trek corgis That would bring my total from the list to 4.

And we all know that most of the caches are on the west side to give the east-siders an excuse to get away for a few hours. And how many caches can you hide in chestnut trees along those house filled streets anyway?

October 28, 2002

I think that updated proposed boundary is PERFECT. And although the first cache i ever found was on the west side of the Willamette, I'd like to declare myself part of the EASTSIDE team.

As long as those sneaky west-siders don't get the bug into this cache, i think i'll do okay.

October 29, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by travisl(noon 10/27):
... has been released! It's in http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=32153 on Mercer Island. When it gets its first move, one of the two teams will start accumulating points.

Let the games begin!

_"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."_

It doesn't seem to be moving. I thought it would move more often. Am I missing something?

One thing bothers me. If I see the bug in a cache and I know 19 others are on my team, does that mean there is a 1 in 20 chance I will find the bug if I look for it? Or is there some kind of coordinator/captain for each team?

1.8k · October 29, 2002

Yeah -- I'd figured for a faster start, although I see that Umbaba looked for the cache today and couldn't find it, so maybe it would have moved if he/she had.

As for your second question, yeah, there's a chance that the bug won't be there when you are. Logs should be made as soon as possible, of course. And if you're worried about it, you can post a note to the cache page saying you're going to try to get the bug so your teammates would know... but then the other team would know, too, and (assuming the three hour limit has passed) they could move it further into your territory. It's a risk of the game.

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

1.8k · November 2, 2002

Yay! It moved! Team South is currently winning

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

November 2, 2002

So, team North could put it in this cache because it's within five miles. Or maybe it isn't. We don't know because it's a multi-. Is that within the rules? And what if a multi-cache has coordinates posted in one territory, but the physical cache is in the other territory? I think we have a few like that in portland, so i'm curious.

1.8k · November 3, 2002

That's a good question -- if the physical cache is more than 5 miles away, but the given coordinates are within 5 miles, is it usable?

I don't think so, since it's possible to place a physical cache on the antipode of the given coordinates, and that wouldn't be fair.

I'd rule that both the physical location and the given coordinates need to be within 5 miles.

And for caches that are given on one side of the line, but located on the other... I've got no idea. Maybe we should just disqualify those few caches altogether, just to make it easier.

I'm open to persuasion, though.

"I'm sure she would have been thrilled to find so much pooh in a little metal box."

November 4, 2002

It may leave out many fine caches, but for simplicity of gameplay, multi-caches should probably be excluded. After all, unless you go by the coordinates listed on the cache page, how will people know for sure whose territory the hot potato is in?

November 13, 2002

Yea, that we walk through the Valley of Dr. Ufo Koska, we shall fear no evil, because the agents of THE SOUTH shall shurly lay waste to the Minnions of the North. Now calling all supporters of Truth, Justice, and The American Way (Team South) to join me in conspiracy, skullduggery, and some serious trash talking, so that we may drive the Forces Of Evil back to Redmond where they came from! Conspirators Wanted: apply within.

And to those Forces of Evil (Team North), let me just say this: I FART in your General Direction!

November 13, 2002

Yup, i had to remove the puget sound hot potato bug from my watch list because it was making my yahoo email account come too close to the maximum. everytime i log on, i've got too many TBUG notifybot emails.

I'm glad this is working out, and i can't wait until we do this down here in portland.

by the way, GO TEAM SOUTH!

November 14, 2002

November 16, 2002

The Puget Sound hot potato bug has been a gas, but, the North team needs some more players. So far, I have been the only one holding the torch so to speak. Now that Uplink and NomadRaven are teaming up, I don't stand a chance alone. C'mon North folks!

November 17, 2002

He's right, he really does need another person on his team. South team has been very competitive. The more people we have playing on both teams, the more fun it'll be!

NomadRaven

November 18, 2002

Appreciated, but not necessary

Seriously, the game mechanics are such that a team with a single player has no chance once the potato moves more than 5 miles into its territory. This is because a single player may never make consecutive moves.

Once South managed two consecutive moves, the game is essentially over until another North sider joins.

I am going to actively recruit -- I'm not sure how actively these boards are read.

November 21, 2002

A team with only one active player is at a pretty big disadvantage already (unless the other team only has one active player, of course).

Added to that difficulty is the stipulation that no single player may make two consecutive moves. The corrollary is: No team with a single player may make two consecutive moves. This is so disadvantageous to the single player team as to make competition impossible.

This rule handles an important pathological case -- a single player being able to move the ball every three hours. However, I think it is too restrictive.

What about a single user having to wait 48 hours to move the ball a second consecutive time? This gives the other team enough time to schedule moving the ball, but it keeps the heat on them.

I'd like to think that this game is intriguing enough to attract more players, but even one-on-one it's quite entertaining, save for that rule.

November 23, 2002

Something is unfair about that rule when only one player is playing on a team. However, I'm surprised that nobody else on your team has stepped forward! I think this game would be tons more fun with at least five players on each team.

Another scoring problem I've notices is that, if the "ball" is in your territory, it's actually in your best interest to find it and hold onto it for the full 48 hours. Since you're scoring two full points during these 48 hours and prohibiting the player on the other team from trying to cross the border with it, it seems that it's an unfair way to score.

To combat this, a "reduced score" or no score could be given for having the "ball" in your posession for over 3 hours. This would encourage players to get rid of it faster, which seems more in the spirit on "hot potato."

Just some food for thought. At first glance, the rules seemed perfect, but in the actual implementation these anomalies start to come out.

NomadRaven

November 24, 2002

I agree with the suggestions of NR above.

The other benefit to subtracting points for holding on to the ball too long is to dissuade posting just as the sun goes down -- thus almost all but negating the 3-hour window offered to the opposition.

Puget Sound Geo Hot Potato

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