Feature Request: Remove "Send to GPS"

[Kybelum]

This is not what you are looking for, but maybe useful for others:

 

The new GC little helper II (v0.7 2017-04-08) generates a map (Google & OSM) with all waypoints and a gpx-file (without notes).

 

I guess this tool only downloads the public waypoints, right?

 

 

I see all waypoints (incl. final) of my own multi.

 

[cezanne]

I see all waypoints (incl. final) of my own multi.

 

Thanks, good to know.

[Ben H]

And of course, this is all panicky conjecture that a change in the "Send to GPS" function will mean a change to what data is delivered.

 

I was finally correct (I would have wished to be wrong however).

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=343784

 

Actually it is even worse than what I guessed would happen as basic members cannot even transfer the waypoints of traditionals via this new method as they cannot use lists.

 

Actually, you're completely wrong. Today's release changed nothing about what basic members are able to do. All previously existing Send to GPS and other file download options that were available yesterday are still available today.

[+Mineral2]

Actually, you're completely wrong. Today's release changed nothing about what basic members are able to do. All previously existing Send to GPS and other file download options that were available yesterday are still available today.

 

Hi Ben,

 

The problem is that for all members to use Send to GPS (a fairly useful feature, by the way), they must reduce security measures by either using an old OS, an older browser, or manually enabling a class of plugins that developers are now actively trying to discourage using. Now there are workarounds, but they are really only useful to premium members. So for the casual geocacher that doesn't want to pay for premium membership, it's somewhat reckless and irresponsible to ask these users to compromise their security to play the game.

 

The new workaround for lists is a partial solution and on the right track. But again, it's only available to premium members and it only really solves the "problem" of having to create a pocket query from a list. The same feature needs to be put directly onto cache pages to either replace Send to GPS, or put beside it.

 

The other option you guys could implement is to allow basic members to directly download the lite GPX file - the same file created with the Send to GPS button - via the Download GPX button. Yes, basic members have access to LOC files, but those are useless as most GPS units don't recognize them, and converting them is a pain (see this thread about requesting that they be removed for this reason).

 

Once again, we're not asking that you open up new features to basic members, just modify the existing ones to stay current with technology so that basic members aren't losing features that were once available to them. Be pro-active to trends rather than reactive. Implement a permanent replacement for Send to GPS before the communicator plugins are completely unuseable.

 

Thank you,

 

Mineral2

[Ben H]

Actually, you're completely wrong. Today's release changed nothing about what basic members are able to do. All previously existing Send to GPS and other file download options that were available yesterday are still available today.

 

Hi Ben,

 

The problem is that for all members to use Send to GPS (a fairly useful feature, by the way), they must reduce security measures by either using an old OS, an older browser, or manually enabling a class of plugins that developers are now actively trying to discourage using. Now there are workarounds, but they are really only useful to premium members. So for the casual geocacher that doesn't want to pay for premium membership, it's somewhat reckless and irresponsible to ask these users to compromise their security to play the game.

 

The new workaround for lists is a partial solution and on the right track. But again, it's only available to premium members and it only really solves the "problem" of having to create a pocket query from a list. The same feature needs to be put directly onto cache pages to either replace Send to GPS, or put beside it.

 

The other option you guys could implement is to allow basic members to directly download the lite GPX file - the same file created with the Send to GPS button - via the Download GPX button. Yes, basic members have access to LOC files, but those are useless as most GPS units don't recognize them, and converting them is a pain (see this thread about requesting that they be removed for this reason).

 

Once again, we're not asking that you open up new features to basic members, just modify the existing ones to stay current with technology so that basic members aren't losing features that were once available to them. Be pro-active to trends rather than reactive. Implement a permanent replacement for Send to GPS before the communicator plugins are completely unuseable.

 

Thank you,

 

Mineral2

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response. My previous post in this thread was not meant to say that we won't update Send to GPS, but rather to dispel the claim that yesterday's Send to Garmin release had actively removed functionality for basic members. That claim simply was not true.

 

We know that we have more work to do to support GPS users - including basic members - in getting content to their devices. The biggest challenge in delivering a feature like Send to GPS or Send to Garmin is that it absolutely requires collaboration with the device manufacturer. I and many others worked with multiple teams at Garmin for more than a year to make the Garmin Express integration a reality. Unfortunately there is nothing quick and easy about it.

 

Yesterday's release was never intended to be a complete solution for getting content to GPS units. I posted some more thoughts about what comes next in yesterday's release notes thread. I'd prefer to keep most of that conversation over there if you have more feedback. Thanks!

[+MtnMutt-ProDuckShins]

After playing with the new Garmin express update, I feel that a PQ drag & drop is easier & quicker.

 

Garmin Express is great for updates for your GPSR as soon as you connect, letting you know if you have an update due.

For a single cache load GPX File, then drag & drop.

 

This is just my opinion, everyone will have their own, just saying.

[+Mineral2]

After playing with the new Garmin express update, I feel that a PQ drag & drop is easier & quicker.

 

Garmin Express is great for updates for your GPSR as soon as you connect, letting you know if you have an update due.

For a single cache load GPX File, then drag & drop.

 

This is just my opinion, everyone will have their own, just saying.

 

Agreed.

 

Also, for a single cache GPX, you don't even need to drag and drop. Simply save directly to the device.

[+kunarion]

After playing with the new Garmin express update, I feel that a PQ drag & drop is easier & quicker.

 

Garmin Express is great for updates for your GPSR as soon as you connect, letting you know if you have an update due.

For a single cache load GPX File, then drag & drop.

 

This is just my opinion, everyone will have their own, just saying.

 

Agreed.

 

Also, for a single cache GPX, you don't even need to drag and drop. Simply save directly to the device.

 

It replaces the need to run a Pocket Query. I'm guessing it doesn't even count as Pocket Query -- that is, there's no limit to the number of lists you may load in a day. Or maybe I missed the part about the limit . Anyway, I could, at times, wait a long time for my PQ to run (if it ever does, being an unlucky odd numbered PQ and a fussy server that day), or I could just go load the list. Yes, I see that the "list" works in a very different way, but I loaded my usual local PQ kind of "List" just now, rather quickly, without running a PQ, and of course there's no "PQ Download" and no unzipping. So it functions in a realm somewhere between "Send To My GPS" and "Pocket Queries". I think it saved me a step or two over using a Pocket Query. If it works, and it seems like it does, it's actually pretty nice!

 

I'm setting up a new PC, and I hadn't given "Send To Garmin" a real test til just now. I'm using IE11, since it appears that Edge wasn't doing it. I plugged the Oregon into the USB port, and a few moments after it was recognized by the PC, "Garmin Express" popped up. I went to the new list page, Sent To Garmin, "downloaded" the list and it installed. Also, while it was at it, Garmin Express announced new updates as usual. Three or four windows pop up in the process. After all, this is Gamin Express.

 

The list name with its appended extra characters .GPX arrived on the Oregon, and the caches I hope to hunt tomorrow are verified to be there. I can't immediately tell if there's something different about the presentation of the cache description (List vs. PQ), but it seems OK so far. I'll probably still delete the old files manually as always, due to no trouble with the Oregon when I do, and sometimes trouble when I merely "overwrite" files. It's a Garmin thing.

 

Yeah, this is not what you want to do to load just one cache. It seems closer to a replacement for Pocket Queries than a replacement for "Send To My GPS".

Edited April 15, 2017 by kunarion

[+Mineral2]

But it's not a replacement of pocket queries. It reduces the need to create a PQ from a list. But traditional searches, and searches along a route have not been replaced. Not until we have the ability to bulk add search results to a bookmark list, or create auto lists based on search criteria.

[+kunarion]

But it's not a replacement of pocket queries. It reduces the need to create a PQ from a list. But traditional searches, and searches along a route have not been replaced. Not until we have the ability to bulk add search results to a bookmark list, or create auto lists based on search criteria.

 

What I meant is that "Send To Garmin" isn't actually like either "Send To My GPS" or Pocket Queries. But it has the "replacement for both features combined into just one button" stink all over it.

Edited April 16, 2017 by kunarion

[+HHL]

On 3.4.2017 at 1:08 PM, cezanne said:

BM cannot use the download gpx file from the cache page.

Since yesterday BMs can download GPX files. I've tested it.
(This may be just a test for preparing the replacement of the "Send To Gps" button.)

Hans

[+Isonzo Karst]

 I'll be darned, Basic member can download a gpx file - my BM account just did on a T3 traditional cache, and D3 T3 Multi. Interesting. Makes sense in terms of how the app provides the gpx file. I wonder about the difference in the limitation - ie, app limits to 1.5 terrain 1.5 difficulty or lower...

I like this change, I like it a lot. Any Basic member who is making the effort to figure out that there IS a website, and is wanting those downloads is a good candidate for staying in the game... those are the people who'll want more, and eventually pay for it.

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Isonzo Karst

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 2/23/2018 at 8:15 AM, Isonzo Karst said:

 I'll be darned, Basic member can download a gpx file - my BM account just did on a T3 traditional cache, and D3 T3 Multi. Interesting. Makes sense in terms of how the app provides the gpx file. I wonder about the difference in the limitation - ie, app limits to 1.5 terrain 1.5 difficulty or lower...

I like this change, I like it a lot. Any Basic member who is making the effort to figure out that there IS a website, and is wanting those downloads is a good candidate for staying in the game... those are the people who'll want more, and eventually pay for it.

 

Does a basic member get the full GPX file with Groundspeak extensions?  I proposed awhile back that the .loc format be eliminated and that basic members would only get a GPX file without the extensions.  That's still better than a .loc file and provides a distinction between basic and premium membership.  

[+AnnaMoritz]

Why restrict the content of gpx?

Basic Members are already treated different by not being able to use the new search in a useful manner, the don't have PQs, don't see listings of PMO geocaches, can't give favorite points, can't use instant notifications, lists and so on. That seems far more than enough difference to me. 

A gpx that contains all waypoints might seem irrelevant to geocachers in traditional-only areas, but for multi-caches with many waypoints it makes a difference and every geocacher that is interested in multi-caches should be welcomed. But even recommended parking coordinates should be available to all geocachers if only to avoid bad impression or worse. And every geocacher that finds the way to the website should be rewarded. 

At least here you won't see the really cool/interesting/wow/high-favorited geocaches if you only can see non-PMO 1.5/1.5 traditionals in the official app. In my opinion restricting what is shown to Basic Members in the app to low DT and traditional geocaches didn't improve the overall outcome. Too many leave after one or a few geocaches before seeing what geocaching could also be. The number of new geocachers that stay is going down significantly.

[+The A-Team]

2 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Does a basic member get the full GPX file with Groundspeak extensions?  I proposed awhile back that the .loc format be eliminated and that basic members would only get a GPX file without the extensions.  That's still better than a .loc file and provides a distinction between basic and premium membership.  

Yes, they get the full GPX file. I compared the GPX files using my premium account and a basic test account, and the only differences were expected ones like find status, timestamp, etc. I just realized I hadn't checked for additional waypoints, so I checked and basic members get those too. The sole issue I ran into was that the basic account was getting Groundspeak extensions 1.0 despite the account's preference being 1.0.1, but changing that preference to 1.0 and then back to 1.0.1 has resolved that.

There haven't been any announcements about this, so it isn't clear if this is an unintended feature or if it's intentional. If it's intentional, then I think it's A Good Thing™. Giving the basic members full GPX files gives them a better taste of what's available and makes caching more enjoyable, and leads to the inevitable question "How can I download these in bulk", to which the answer would be Premium membership. Without getting a taste of what can be found in a GPX file, a basic member may not realize what could potentially be available to them and may never be spurred to sign up for Premium.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 2/26/2018 at 3:36 PM, The A-Team said:

There haven't been any announcements about this, so it isn't clear if this is an unintended feature or if it's intentional. If it's intentional, then I think it's A Good Thing™. Giving the basic members full GPX files gives them a better taste of what's available and makes caching more enjoyable, and leads to the inevitable question "How can I download these in bulk", to which the answer would be Premium membership. Without getting a taste of what can be found in a GPX file, a basic member may not realize what could potentially be available to them and may never be spurred to sign up for Premium

I completely agree.  I've felt the same thing about PMO caches.  There are several reasons why a CO might want to make their cache PMO, but one is to provide an incentive to basic members to become a premium member.  If a basic member could at least see everything except the coordinates it would show basic member what they're missing.

Using a waypoint manager such as GSAK, Basecamp, Easy/ExpertGPS, or ICaching allows basic or premium members to manage multiple caches and send them to their GPS in bulk, but a basic member could only download one GPX file per cache at a time.  Bulk downloading a list or PQ result is premium membership benefit worth paying for.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I completely agree.  I've felt the same thing about PMO caches.  There are several reasons why a CO might want to make their cache PMO, but one is to provide an incentive to basic members to become a premium member.  If a basic member could at least see everything except the coordinates it would show basic member what they're missing.

Using a waypoint manager such as GSAK, Basecamp, Easy/ExpertGPS, or ICaching allows basic or premium members to manage multiple caches and send them to their GPS in bulk, but a basic member could only download one GPX file per cache at a time.  Bulk downloading a list or PQ result is premium membership benefit worth paying for.

I see your point about only hiding the coordinates on PM caches, but I disagree.

I LIKE having something special, this whole class of service, for Premium Members. Showing all the details may cause a random Basic Member or two to fork over the dough, but I suspect it'd be more likely that most Basic Members would either not take the trouble, or they'd go look anyway. After all, many caches are findable without specific coordinates, given the write-up, the subject, the hide area, log entries, etc.

And, it's not like your average PMO cachepage is so spectacularly crafted to elicit wonder; we all know the majority are "just another cache".

So, we'd end up with tons of log entries with some form of "What's the big deal? There's nothing special about this!!! Resented the extra hoops I had to jump through to find a bison tube on a fence post!!!"

And then, once it's established practice that BM's can't see the coords but frequently get the caches anyway, there'll be calls for "It's unfair; they're finding them, so just show them the coordinates!"

Incentive to upgrade: gone. Protection for caches at risk: gone. Incentive to create a cooler class of cache: gone (partially).

 

And, as elitist as it sounds, being in the Kool Krowd: gone.  

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by TeamRabbitRun
More spelling errors. I shouldn't be allowed out..

[+cerberus1]

6 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I completely agree.  I've felt the same thing about PMO caches.  There are several reasons why a CO might want to make their cache PMO, but one is to provide an incentive to basic members to become a premium member.  If a basic member could at least see everything except the coordinates it would show basic member what they're missing.

I disagree, but nowhere near in line with the rabbits.       We believe most realize that a pmo cache is usually no better than another, and most people become pm for pqs, lists, notifications, etc., and certainly not because pms are cooler...

 - But a fair amount of cache descriptions we see have enough info within, that a rough idea of where the location is could be possible.  Basic members are already allowed to go with a pm caching, and sign the log/log online if both hit a pmo hide.  That's a good thing, and enough.  Most hobbies I participate in have a basic/pm payment structure, and believe that others have seen it often enough to understand that.  

[+noncentric]

On 4/6/2018 at 11:29 AM, cerberus1 said:

 - But a fair amount of cache descriptions we see have enough info within, that a rough idea of where the location is could be possible.  Basic members are already allowed to go with a pm caching, and sign the log/log online if both hit a pmo hide.  That's a good thing, and enough.

Very true. The general location of my PMO hide is pretty much spelled out in the cache name and cache description. It's a typical, 'boring' hide, but the location is good. If BM's can see the cache description, then they wouldn't have a difficult time finding it without the exact coords.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:29 PM, cerberus1 said:

I disagree, but nowhere near in line with the rabbits.       We believe most realize that a pmo cache is usually no better than another, and most people become pm for pqs, lists, notifications, etc., and certainly not because pms are cooler...

 - But a fair amount of cache descriptions we see have enough info within, that a rough idea of where the location is could be possible.  Basic members are already allowed to go with a pm caching, and sign the log/log online if both hit a pmo hide.  That's a good thing, and enough.  Most hobbies I participate in have a basic/pm payment structure, and believe that others have seen it often enough to understand that.  

Mystery caches (usually) don't have the coordinates for the actual location but somehow cache owners manage to create listings for them which don't provide clue to finding it without having the coordinates.  If a CO hides a run-of-the-mill cache and decides to make it PMO that's all on the CO.  If a CO wants to create a cache that is a step above and want it to be an incentive for basic members they just need to take a little care in constructing the description so that it doesn't give away the location.  

[+cerberus1]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:25 AM, NYPaddleCacher said:

  There are several reasons why a CO might want to make their cache PMO, but one is to provide an incentive to basic members to become a premium member.  If a basic member could at least see everything except the coordinates it would show basic member what they're missing.

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 2:29 PM, cerberus1 said:

 ...But a fair amount of cache descriptions we see have enough info within, that a rough idea of where the location is could be possible. 

11 hours ago, noncentric said:

Very true. The general location of my PMO hide is pretty much spelled out in the cache name and cache description. It's a typical, 'boring' hide, but the location is good. If BM's can see the cache description, then they wouldn't have a difficult time finding it without the exact coords.

Yep. 

10 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Mystery caches (usually) don't have the coordinates for the actual location but somehow cache owners manage to create listings for them which don't provide clue to finding it without having the coordinates.  If a CO hides a run-of-the-mill cache and decides to make it PMO that's all on the CO.  If a CO wants to create a cache that is a step above and want it to be an incentive for basic members they just need to take a little care in constructing the description so that it doesn't give away the location.  

Still OT,  but we find many caches like noncentric's.   I don't feel that a CO who already has a cache pmo should also have to be "careful" with wording in their description as well.  They made it pmo for a reason, and they are the paying member...

Many we've talked to are still griping about the "free temp PM" offered a while ago (leap day '16 IIRC...), using their caches.   I guess I don't understand why someone would want to further alienate premium members that way. 

 

 

[+3 Amigos]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:10 PM, Moun10Bike said:

You will see a replacement for this shortly (probably before the end of the month). We have been working with Garmin for months on a solution and it is finally coming to fruition. Unfortunately, the other GPS device manufacturers who previously made use of the Send to GPS function have all exited the playing field, so the replacement will be Garmin only.

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by 3 Amigos