Mission 9 APE cache to be returned/reactivated

[+The A-Team]

Of course a guard rail micro will not attract the same attention than a cache at a more interesting location. Note I wrote a normal old cache at this location - so except the ape cache type everything else stayed the same.

No, it didn't.

 

First, let's be clear: the Project APE caches have always been given special treatment. It shouldn't be a surprise that this continues to be the case.

 

Now, Groundspeak has always had the firm policy that the significant aspect of the APE caches was (and still is) the original containers. As soon as that original container was lost, the cache would be archived. A replacement container would not be allowed to pose as an APE cache.

 

Keeping the above policy in mind, wouldn't it naturally make sense that if the original container was found, the cache should be reactivated? Again, these caches have always been in their own category separate from all other caches, so comparisons with any other old cache are pointless.

 

We can speculate that most of those who voted for reactivation did so for selfish reasons, but I don't see why that matters even if it were true (which I don't believe to be the case). In the end, the outcome of this whole process was a foregone conclusion, and I think TPTB went into it expecting the most logical result would always win out. Even if you may have voted differently, did anyone here seriously expect any if the other options to be selected?

[+hukilaulau]

Predictable to get that response, but you are both in the minority. Interesting also that you ignored the first paragraph...

not quite. The response was predictable because that was the majority opinion. I'm sure of it. Even though I don't have any evidence to back it up...

(Oh, wait, we have something in common!) As for that last sentence, I don't even know what that means. So I have no pithy retort.

[+DragonsWest]

I'm perplexed.

 

Why are people's noses out of joint on this?

 

Geocachers are happy, it's a good thing.

 

You're unhappy? Ignore it. Don't dwell on it. Go about your business. Nothing to see here. Shoo!

[cezanne]

Of course a guard rail micro will not attract the same attention than a cache at a more interesting location. Note I wrote a normal old cache at this location - so except the ape cache type everything else stayed the same.

No, it didn't.

 

Apparently you misunderstood what I meant which most probably was my fault. I was not talking about Groundspeak's alternatives but referred to my omparison in the post to which narcissa replied. I meant let's compare the situation of everything else be the same just leave out the ape cache type.

 

What I meant was this:

If there happened to be an old cache at a phantastic location that people loved to visit for many years but which then disappeared and got archived, the cache would not get unarchived and reinstalled when the container shows up again and no vote would be organized whether this should be done and the big majority of cachers would not care at all (if it were not something some people needed again for some statistics oriented type of thing, so let's assume that this is not the case).

 

 

First, let's be clear: the Project APE caches have always been given special treatment. It shouldn't be a surprise that this continues to be the case.

 

I agree and it did not surprise me.

 

I do not have an issue if someone visits an ape cache just for the icon - it does not harm me at all and I do not see how it harms the geocaching community. (In this concrete case it will only harm Brazil in a way, but the same effect were true if the other ape cache would never have disappeared.)

 

I do have an issue however if someone who just says the truth that what happened happened due to the special status of ape caches gets blamed for being negative, harsh, derisive etc

 

In my opinion this thread has stayed very civil.

 

Keeping the above policy in mind, wouldn't it naturally make sense that if the original container was found, the cache should be reactivated? Again, these caches have always been in their own category separate from all other caches, so comparisons with any other old cache are pointless.

 

The comparisons are not pointless in a discussion when people start to argue about the nice experience offered by this ape cache as central element in the decision process. Let's stay sincere. What happened happened because it was an ape cache after all and not due to the location and other experience related stuff and not due to the age of the cache.

 

Even if you may have voted differently, did anyone here seriously expect any if the other options to be selected?

 

No and I do not have a problem with the outcome of the vote either. I mentioned above with what I have a problem.

Edited March 16, 2017 by cezanne

[+KBLAST]

Of course a guard rail micro will not attract the same attention than a cache at a more interesting location. Note I wrote a normal old cache at this location - so except the ape cache type everything else stayed the same.

No, it didn't.

 

Apparently you misunderstood what I meant which most probably was my fault. I was not talking about Groundspeak's alternatives but referred to my omparison in the post to which narcissa replied. I meant let's compare the situation of everything else be the same just leave out the ape cache type.

 

What I meant was this:

If there happened to be an old cache at a phantastic location that people loved to visit for many years but which then disappeared and got archived, the cache would not get unarchived and reinstalled when the container shows up again and no vote would be organized whether this should be done and the big majority of cachers would not care at all (if it were not something some people needed again for some statistics oriented type of thing, so let's assume that this is not the case).

 

May I suggest another possibility?

 

I've seen caches unarchived before. It was always circumstantial. I personally had one unarchived due to some very specific issues and because it was particularly special to me and, I think, to the community. I had to give my reasons and explain why I let it get archived in the first place, and the reviewer was INCREDIBLY kind and understanding and chose to unarchive my cache. I don't think I'm the only person who's had this done.

 

The APE cache similarly had VERY SPECIFIC issues, extenuating circumstances, and was special to, I think, the community. Reasons were given why it was archived in the first place, and very UNUSUAL circumstances led to the cache becoming available again, which were clearly explained. The biggest difference I see is that this cache is of interest to the WHOLE community, not just a local geocaching region. Groundspeak recognized this (they couldn't just unarchive it - it would certainly have been noticed QUICKLY) and instead of making a decision, asked the community.

 

I would suspect that if Mingo or other significant caches were discovered to have EXTENUATING circumstances, they might also become community-wide decisions, not just local (as was my personal case). Yes, the APE cache is special, and is being treated with "special" status, but I think it's the Geo-community as a whole that made it this way, Groundspeak just recognized that it was special.

[cezanne]

Yes, the APE cache is special, and is being treated with "special" status, but I think it's the Geo-community as a whole that made it this way, Groundspeak just recognized that it was special.

 

Of course there are different ways of looking at things as usual. In my opinion, it's Groundspeak who made APE caches special by assigning them their own type and this separate type is also the key reason why people from all over the world invest a lot of money to travel to APE caches.

[+Manville Possum]

Yes, the APE cache is special, and is being treated with "special" status, but I think it's the Geo-community as a whole that made it this way, Groundspeak just recognized that it was special.

 

I see it the other way around.

[+Rebore]

Of course a guard rail micro will not attract the same attention than a cache at a more interesting location. Note I wrote a normal old cache at this location - so except the ape cache type everything else stayed the same.

No, it didn't.

 

Apparently you misunderstood what I meant which most probably was my fault. I was not talking about Groundspeak's alternatives but referred to my omparison in the post to which narcissa replied. I meant let's compare the situation of everything else be the same just leave out the ape cache type.

 

What I meant was this:

If there happened to be an old cache at a phantastic location that people loved to visit for many years but which then disappeared and got archived, the cache would not get unarchived and reinstalled when the container shows up again and no vote would be organized whether this should be done and the big majority of cachers would not care at all (if it were not something some people needed again for some statistics oriented type of thing, so let's assume that this is not the case).

 

May I suggest another possibility?

 

I've seen caches unarchived before. It was always circumstantial. I personally had one unarchived due to some very specific issues and because it was particularly special to me and, I think, to the community. I had to give my reasons and explain why I let it get archived in the first place, and the reviewer was INCREDIBLY kind and understanding and chose to unarchive my cache. I don't think I'm the only person who's had this done.

 

The APE cache similarly had VERY SPECIFIC issues, extenuating circumstances, and was special to, I think, the community. Reasons were given why it was archived in the first place, and very UNUSUAL circumstances led to the cache becoming available again, which were clearly explained. The biggest difference I see is that this cache is of interest to the WHOLE community, not just a local geocaching region. Groundspeak recognized this (they couldn't just unarchive it - it would certainly have been noticed QUICKLY) and instead of making a decision, asked the community.

 

I would suspect that if Mingo or other significant caches were discovered to have EXTENUATING circumstances, they might also become community-wide decisions, not just local (as was my personal case). Yes, the APE cache is special, and is being treated with "special" status, but I think it's the Geo-community as a whole that made it this way, Groundspeak just recognized that it was special.

 

And the only reason why it is special and of interest to the whole community is that rare icon/cache type.

[+dprovan]

If there happened to be an old cache at a phantastic location that people loved to visit for many years but which then disappeared and got archived, the cache would not get unarchived and reinstalled when the container shows up again and no vote would be organized whether this should be done and the big majority of cachers would not care at all (if it were not something some people needed again for some statistics oriented type of thing, so let's assume that this is not the case).

Well, maybe you know something I don't, since I'm no insider or old timer or anything, but I think that a much loved long archived cache would in fact be unarchived under the right conditions even if it didn't present any unique characteristics such as the special icon. The only difference is that I don't think it would have been debated, it just would have been done. In other words, the APE cache is being treated more harshly because of the icon, not more favorably: the special icon provides reasons not to unarchive a cache that would have otherwise been unarchived without much thought.

 

But even if I agreed with you that the APE cache is getting special consideration, I'd still wouldn't think there was anything wrong with that. It is special, so it's reasonable that it get special consideration. I don't find it very relevant whether it's special because it has an icon or it has an icon because it's special. Either way, I'm glad they reactivated it, and if I really thought they reactivated it only so people can get the APE icon, I'd still be fine with that.

 

I do have an issue however if someone who just says the truth that what happened happened due to the special status of ape caches gets blamed for being negative, harsh, derisive etc

I agree with you here. There's no place here for adding emotional spins to reasonable opinions.

[+niraD]

And the only reason why it is special and of interest to the whole community is that rare icon/cache type.

A reason why it is special and of interest? Definitely. The main reason? Perhaps.

 

But the only reason? I don't think so. The Mission 9 tribute cache in Washington has received a fair bit of attention, and it offers no icon or unusual cache type. There is something going on besides the Project APE icon and cache type.

[+hzoi]

I want the icon.

 

I'm a little jealous of some of the old timers who have the locationless icon. I'll never have another chance at it. I'm glad I got the 10th anniversary icon - that's one of my badges of being around at the right time.

 

I would LOVE to go to get the Brazil APE cache. I have to get a passport, I have to get a plane ticket, and I have to make plans to get to Brazil. And I have to figure out how to communicate with the right people and work in a culture I'm not accustomed to. I'd LOVE to do that... and I've tried. But I haven't been able to make it happen.

 

Now I can go to Washington and I can visit my brother and I can stop and get the original stash while I'm in the area. AND the experience will be incredible (I was only a mile-ish from it last time I visited). And there will be awesome people to meet! LOTS of them!

 

I would eventually have gone to get the tribute at some point anyway, but now I have a reason to go THIS year.

 

And it has to do with the icon. And I don't care if you think it's dumb. I'm SOOO pumped!!!

I have no problem with this being about the icon.

 

I probably would have driven to go to another 10 Years! event, but I wanted to not only attend one, but host one.

 

And although we saw other stuff when we went to Baltimore back in 2010, we most definitely went for the Adventure Maze icon.

 

The A.P.E. icon wasn't the only reason I went to Seattle in 2009, but it sure as heck was why we went to Snoqualmie Pass the first afternoon we were there.

 

(I don't know why I didn't even try to talk the wife into going to Groundspeak HQ. I think she'd've gone, no problem. But I didn't. So I guess I'll have to go back.)

[+eigengott]

The reason this APE cache is being reactivated is because people want the icon for their stats, and they consider this location relatively easy to get to (and it is).

 

Writing as a player here, I'm not so sure that this is true. For many geocachers this (and any other APE cache) is pretty hard to get to - because it's on another continent.

 

I also voted for "bring it back". But surely not because I'm interested so much in that (or any other) icon. A look at my rather icon-sparse stats should be proof enough. No, I voted for this option because it's a nice story to have back a cache tought lost forever. A bit like the Parable of the Prodigal Son. And the other options essentially would have made a trophy out of the box, which I don't find very appealing.

[cezanne]

And the only reason why it is special and of interest to the whole community is that rare icon/cache type.

A reason why it is special and of interest? Definitely. The main reason? Perhaps.

 

But the only reason? I don't think so. The Mission 9 tribute cache in Washington has received a fair bit of attention, and it offers no icon or unusual cache type. There is something going on besides the Project APE icon and cache type.

 

I also do not think that it is the only reason. That's why I wrote key reason.

 

The tribute cache has indeed received a fair bit of attention. However there are not many people who travelled from a different continent to the tribute cache only for the tribute cache (of course Washington has more to offer to them and other rare icons). The fact that many cachers are willing to invest a lot of money into a single cache is what makes caches with a rare icon or a rare placed date special.

[cezanne]

The reason this APE cache is being reactivated is because people want the icon for their stats, and they consider this location relatively easy to get to (and it is).

 

Writing as a player here, I'm not so sure that this is true. For many geocachers this (and any other APE cache) is pretty hard to get to - because it's on another continent.

 

I also voted for "bring it back". But surely not because I'm interested so much in that (or any other) icon. A look at my rather icon-sparse stats should be proof enough. No, I voted for this option because it's a nice story to have back a cache tought lost forever. A bit like the Parable of the Prodigal Son. And the other options essentially would have made a trophy out of the box, which I don't find very appealing.

 

I think it's a different question why people voted for the return of the APE cache than why they people from far away travel to an APE cache. It's very easy to vote for something - it costs nothing. I did not vote but I have to agree with you that the other three options were not attractive at all.

[+Rebore]

And the only reason why it is special and of interest to the whole community is that rare icon/cache type.

A reason why it is special and of interest? Definitely. The main reason? Perhaps.

 

But the only reason? I don't think so. The Mission 9 tribute cache in Washington has received a fair bit of attention, and it offers no icon or unusual cache type. There is something going on besides the Project APE icon and cache type.

 

Fair point, I'll try to rephrase it:

The only reason why it is of interest to the WHOLE community (not just a local geocaching region) is that rare icon/cache type.

[+dprovan]

The only reason why it is of interest to the WHOLE community (not just a local geocaching region) is that rare icon/cache type.

It is of interest because it's special. Yes, one of the things that makes it special is the icon, but so what?

[+Rebore]

The only reason why it is of interest to the WHOLE community (not just a local geocaching region) is that rare icon/cache type.

It is of interest because it's special. Yes, one of the things that makes it special is the icon, but so what?

 

That's perfectly fine by me.

I just wanted to clarify that, for the whole global community, it is not _mainly_ about the experience, location or whatever else.

[+KBLAST]

The only reason why it is of interest to the WHOLE community (not just a local geocaching region) is that rare icon/cache type.

It is of interest because it's special. Yes, one of the things that makes it special is the icon, but so what?

 

That's perfectly fine by me.

I just wanted to clarify that, for the whole global community, it is not _mainly_ about the experience, location or whatever else.

I see your Vibrams there!

 

As a voracious geocaching thrill/experience seeker, I've done a LOT of amazing things. I've climbed hundreds of trees, crawled miles of sewers under Durham, Gri-gried my way up and down various rock faces, and driven thousands of miles to find specific caches AS my vacation (the caches were my purpose for going to these locations). I even started a website with the purpose of drawing attention to amazing geocaching experiences that might otherwise go missed.

 

Yes, the icon is the major reason I attempted this a few years back. But driving to the area and hiking around Snoqualmie Pass is one of the highlights of my time caching. The Cascades are phenomenal. Would I have specifically targeted THIS cache instead of Iron Horse or some of the Rocket Cache or others up that way if it weren't for the icon? I can honestly say no. But I can also say that this area is one of the most amazing caching experiences I've ever had.

 

When I go to the event this year, I'm going for the event, for the area (all of the caches in the area!), to meet LOTS of people and enjoy hanging out with (hopefully) thousands of others, and to get the icon before it disappears again. I don't want this to be the one that got away AGAIN.

 

Again, being honest, it probably won't go on my site - which is what I think is your overall point. You are correct, it doesn't deserve that status. But at the same time, you combine a HUGE walking/biking tunnel, the Cascade Mountains, the waterfalls and rocky terrain of Snoqualmie, AND a special icon and event that draws thousands to the area, it's pretty special.

[+SwineFlew]

What if the real APE cache ammo can was fake?

[+dprovan]

That's perfectly fine by me.

I just wanted to clarify that, for the whole global community, it is not _mainly_ about the experience, location or whatever else.

It's special. It has a unique icon. That's "whatever else".

 

All I can think of is what you're trying to say is that why it's important to the community isn't why it's important to you. That doesn't strike me as an interesting observation.

[+KBLAST]

What if the real APE cache ammo can was fake?

It would be called Piltdown cache, of course! (Sorry - really horrible science joke!)

[+thebruce0]

Icons are used to identify a variety of cache listings, and most of the differences between caches with different icons are almost completely irrelevant - they all end in physical caches. Why is a traditional icon any more/less special than an unknown, or letterbox, or Wherigo? And yet people still want to go for them, often because of the icon. The icon IS part of what makes every cache listing special. It's part of the cache.

 

The differences in experience between caches with a different icon are relatively small. So what's the tie between the experience and the APE?

Unknown: puzzle, or challenge

Letterbox: non-gps instructions, or stamp

Wherigo: device-executed instructions

Maze exhibit: temporary educational installation

Event: gathering of like-minded hobbyists

L&F event: See Event, but denotes an event placed for the geocaching 10 year anniversary

APE cache: marketing campaign for Planet of the Apes

etc

 

Every listing type has a reason for existing. Some types are more rare than others, even termporary. Some types provide a variety of experiences or meaning.

Who cares whether one person values a certain type more than another? It's not merely about the physical container (if there is one) at the end of the listing.

 

People imbue caches with their own value based on what they prefer about the hobby of geocaching. No, not everyone merely wants the icon, just as not everyone merely wants the physical container, and whether someone wanted the APE re-enabled merely for the icon or not should not even matter.

 

There are so many arbitrary factors that make up the activity of geocaching. It is what it is. Enjoy it, abide by the rules enforceable by TPTB regarding what they have authority over (here insofar as requirements for owning a listing that's allowed on geocaching.com), understand good etiquette for the general betterment of the community as a hider and a finder, and just have fun.

Edited March 17, 2017 by thebruce0

[+bflentje]

What if the real APE cache ammo can was fake?

 

LOL. I claimed conspiracy long ago. Now that the block party is done, something was needed to get the people back to WA. And a group "just so happened" to find the dumped container in the vast space of the Snoqualmie Pass.. either way, thank you. Now I have my opportunity to get the icon. It was archived 6 weeks before a planned trip back in the day.

 

:ph34r: :ph34r:

Edited March 17, 2017 by bflentje

[+Great Scott!]

What if the real APE cache ammo can was fake?

 

Then all of the new A.P.E trackables that HQ will be creating/selling will be fake, too.

[+Rebore]

That's perfectly fine by me.

I just wanted to clarify that, for the whole global community, it is not _mainly_ about the experience, location or whatever else.

It's special. It has a unique icon. That's "whatever else".

 

All I can think of is what you're trying to say is that why it's important to the community isn't why it's important to you. That doesn't strike me as an interesting observation.

 

What leads you to this assumption? How did "The only reason why it is of interest to the WHOLE community (not just a local geocaching region) is that rare icon/cache type." turn into "It isn't important to me" in your head? If what I'm saying is not interesting to you, well, so be it.

[+dprovan]

What leads you to this assumption? How did "The only reason why it is of interest to the WHOLE community (not just a local geocaching region) is that rare icon/cache type." turn into "It isn't important to me" in your head? If what I'm saying is not interesting to you, well, so be it.

I said that because the logical reading of your statement ("it is not _mainly_ about the experience, location or whatever else") leads to the conclusion that when you say "or whatever else", you don't include a unique icon or being special. Others would.

 

That wasn't such a leap, was it? Isn't your point that the icon shouldn't be considered just another aspect as valid as location and experience?

 

The bottom line is that people like the APE cache. You seem intend on sorting out exactly why it's important, then judging whether those reasons are good enough for GS to take special action. I say that's it's important, so why does it matter why?

[+Rebore]

What leads you to this assumption? How did "The only reason why it is of interest to the WHOLE community (not just a local geocaching region) is that rare icon/cache type." turn into "It isn't important to me" in your head? If what I'm saying is not interesting to you, well, so be it.

I said that because the logical reading of your statement ("it is not _mainly_ about the experience, location or whatever else") leads to the conclusion that when you say "or whatever else", you don't include a unique icon or being special. Others would.

 

That wasn't such a leap, was it? Isn't your point that the icon shouldn't be considered just another aspect as valid as location and experience?

 

The bottom line is that people like the APE cache. You seem intend on sorting out exactly why it's important, then judging whether those reasons are good enough for GS to take special action. I say that's it's important, so why does it matter why?

 

Please show me where I was judging anything or anybody.

 

If I would say a stamp is only valued highly because only two pieces exist in the whole world, not because of the nice picture on it or whatever else, it's just a matter of fact. You may disagree or find it obvious, but please stop speculating about my thoughts or intentions.

[+dprovan]

If I would say a stamp is only valued highly because only two pieces exist in the whole world, not because of the nice picture on it or whatever else, it's just a matter of fact. You may disagree or find it obvious, but please stop speculating about my thoughts or intentions.

If you don't want me to understand your thoughts, why are you posting?

[+Rebore]

Again, being honest, it probably won't go on my site - which is what I think is your overall point. You are correct, it doesn't deserve that status. But at the same time, you combine a HUGE walking/biking tunnel, the Cascade Mountains, the waterfalls and rocky terrain of Snoqualmie, AND a special icon and event that draws thousands to the area, it's pretty special.

 

I removed the word "special" when rephrasing my original statement just because of what you said. I don't know this cache, maybe it's like a LordBritish cache and special even without that icon.

[+thebruce0]

Some people just want to watch the world burn

 

It is what it is. No one can judge what it is that everyone values with the cache. Let it go. The community spoke. I refer back to my previous comment about subjective "value"

[+DragonsWest]

Some people just want to watch the world burn

 

It is what it is. No one can judge what it is that everyone values with the cache. Let it go. The community spoke. I refer back to my previous comment about subjective "value"

 

Yep, the community spoke. People who have a tough time with it for one reason or another need to repeat my mantra:

 

Geocaching means different things to different people.

 

Soonest people accept that the sooner they are on to more productive things.

 

Such as hiding more caches.

[+M 5]

I looked at the Mega Event to pass along some info at our areas monthly meeting, and it still says you will only get an icon for the mega and a souvenir and states that the cache cannot be reactivated. I'm assuming that the event organizers just haven't updated the cache page since the announcement???