Would you bother to print and carry a permit for caching?

[+ByronForestPreserve]

I spoke with our Risk Management Consultant about setting up a night cache on our property. Because we're a forest preserve, our General Use Ordinance states that we close at dusk unless there is staff around for an event or rental. Anyone on our trails at night could theoretically be forcefully removed by the local police (and they definitely patrol our buildings). So...how to set up a night cache? Her suggestion was to have a permit on the cache page that needed to be printed and signed by a cacher who planned on being on our property at night. It's all legal, of course: anyone hurt on our property at night who didn't belong there doesn't have much chance to win a court case. The permit gives permission, but also acts as a waiver/"you understand the risks associated with caching at night, &etc."

 

I pointed out that 75% of cachers probably wouldn't print and sign and carry the permit, in which case we are back to them being there without permission. Sort of.

 

Would you? Would it be worth the hassle? Anyone have alternate suggestions?

 

(This might be a theoretical discusion, as setting up a GOOD night cache would be completely new for me. There are so few night caches around, and I've only ever tried to do one. I never even found the first firetack. But it seems like it could be awesome.)

[+narcissa]

I would, but my bigger concern is that so many people don't read the cache page that they won't know they're supposed to do that.

[Pup Patrol]

I spoke with our Risk Management Consultant about setting up a night cache on our property. Because we're a forest preserve, our General Use Ordinance states that we close at dusk unless there is staff around for an event or rental. Anyone on our trails at night could theoretically be forcefully removed by the local police (and they definitely patrol our buildings). So...how to set up a night cache? Her suggestion was to have a permit on the cache page that needed to be printed and signed by a cacher who planned on being on our property at night. It's all legal, of course: anyone hurt on our property at night who didn't belong there doesn't have much chance to win a court case. The permit gives permission, but also acts as a waiver/"you understand the risks associated with caching at night, &etc."

 

I pointed out that 75% of cachers probably wouldn't print and sign and carry the permit, in which case we are back to them being there without permission. Sort of.

 

Would you? Would it be worth the hassle? Anyone have alternate suggestions?

 

(This might be a theoretical discusion, as setting up a GOOD night cache would be completely new for me. There are so few night caches around, and I've only ever tried to do one. I never even found the first firetack. But it seems like it could be awesome.)

 

A short, b&w text with their logo? Sure, I would do it.

 

But, then again, I'm one of those few who actually read the whole cache page. Edit: LOL, I was posting at the same time as narcissa.

 

I would definitely let the relevant local police know about the night cache as well. Can't hurt to give them a heads-up. Let them know that the cachers would be showing the permit.

 

(I'm lousy at "night caches", too. Those firetacks are small!)

 

b.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Pup Patrol

[+MartyBartfast]

I would if I thought the cache was going to be worth the effort. As narcissa says a lot of people don't always read the cache page (including me) so I would suggest

 

• make it clear in the cache name that it's a night cache
  
• make it an "Unknown" cache type, then everyone will look at the page to see what the "puzzle" is.
  
• Put a notice about the card right at the top of the page in BIG letters
  

 

However I can't help thinking that this might fall foul of some GS guideline, so Email your local reviewer before hand to see if it would be permitted before devoting too much time/energy/money to it. E.G. they might say that naming the reserve on the card falls foul of the commercial guidelines, and then all you have is people carrying a card saying "I have permission to be here" without it stating where here is...

[+coachstahly]

I would, but it's my guess that most cachers who frequent the forum are the cachers who would read the cache page and follow the requested procedures. The issue would be for the newer cachers or those who might not read all the way through and not understand that they need to bring it along with them for the night cache. How do you get them to sign and carry? You could have the starting point of the night cache contain the form (means more work on your part) so that they're covered on the chance that they either forget it or, more likely, never read the page to see that it was needed. Something like some of the nature preserves around here have is a "sign in" station but rather than sign in, they sign the form to get started.

Edited March 3, 2017 by coachstahly

[TahoeJoe]

Evertime I hike in the Desolation Wilderness area where I live you must fill out a permit even for a day hike. I wouldn't think twice about it.

[+Manville Possum]

Sounds like anyone on the property could be stopped and questioned, which leads to that can of worms why stop and question people on the property at night in the first place when it's likely those geocacher people.

 

Maybe a night cache is not workable on the property? It's likely that most will not read your cache page, or be able to print with their smartphone.

[+Viajero Perdido]

Evertime I hike in the Desolation Wilderness area where I live you must fill out a permit even for a day hike. I wouldn't think twice about it.

I don't know where you live, but it sounds like Hell.

 

As to the OP's question, as soon as I saw the permit required part, I'd roll my eyes and go next! I mean, I'm sure you have a nice forest preserve (prairie) and all that, but there are two million other caches on the planet, and most don't require paperwork. Something about it rankles me.

 

Those are my two bits, spend them wherever you can.

[+ByronForestPreserve]

Good considerations, thanks. A mystery cache might work. I might finagle just having the cache page itself be the permit, so it can be shown on a phone screen (or GPSr). My biggest concern was indeed that most cachers wouldn't read the cache page. Shame. Of course, having the permit be the cache page text would be like someone signing a waiver or agreeing to ToS without reading it first...which never happens anywhere ever.

 

Viajero Perdido: we have a decent number of regular caches on our properties. This would only be to cache at night. Knowing that night caches appeal to some people and that there aren't many around, I would think they would jump through at least one straightforward "hoop" to get that one.

[+narcissa]

Good considerations, thanks. A mystery cache might work. I might finagle just having the cache page itself be the permit, so it can be shown on a phone screen (or GPSr). My biggest concern was indeed that most cachers wouldn't read the cache page. Shame. Of course, having the permit be the cache page text would be like someone signing a waiver or agreeing to ToS without reading it first...which never happens anywhere ever.

 

Viajero Perdido: we have a decent number of regular caches on our properties. This would only be to cache at night. Knowing that night caches appeal to some people and that there aren't many around, I would think they would jump through at least one straightforward "hoop" to get that one.

 

Discouraging people who can't be bothered with it seems like a feature, not a flaw.

[+geodarts]

There are trails near where I live that require users to carry permits. I have purchased permits, just like I have purchased other types of passes. Well, there was that time I quickly cut across a section without a permit to avoid a much longer route . . . but there is no need to discuss such indiscretions. So, I would print out a free permit (or store a pdf on my phone) to avoid any problems - especially if the area were patrolled.

 

That does not mean that I think a printed permit would always be used. In my area, dog-walkers, mountain bikers, and geocachers sometimes seem oblivious to rules. In any event, if the area is patrolled, then local police would have to be informed that there may be people in the area at night, otherwise they may be wasting their time checking out people who are caching with a valid permit. Under these circumstances, a written permit system could get complicated or simply be ignored by everyone. . . . including people who are not caching.

 

While rules of liability are outside my normal area of legal expertise, particularly in your jurisdiction, I would think that the cache page itself could act as a permit. If the description clearly stated that access is granted only for a limited purpose and that seeking this cache constites a waiver of any claim against the Preserve, would that satisfy Risk Management?

 

I could think of other systems, such as a trailhead register that is is used in some areas for wilderness permits, but those might also open the area for use outside of this game.

Edited March 3, 2017 by geodarts

[+Isonzo Karst]

I'd list this as a Mystery, which will definitely help with Read listing part. Heck I might even make title:

MUST PRINT PERMIT Nightcache - Mystery.... ;-)

 

I would expect that to work okay. There are caches in places that require permits around here. And people get those permits... I don't recall any where you have to carry the permit. Generally you leave in the dash of the car, but carry could be specified, and I expect people would do it.

[+niraD]

Would you?

Sure.

 

My question is how a meaningless self-printed waiver addresses your General Use Ordinance's requirement that after-dusk use requires the presence of preserve staff. Does the permit/waiver also deputize the geocachers to be unpaid preserve staff?

[+TeamRabbitRun]

If I were you I think I'd consider my responsibility to the Forest Preserve outranks my status as a GC hobbyist.

 

Bottom line is, you don't allow people in the Preserve at night. Why would you compromise that rule for a game?

 

What happens when local teens discover that they can't be hassled running through the woods at night if they carry this piece of paper?

 

Not worth it. Lots of ways to make caching fun on your land during the day. Stay true to your Forest.

[+kunarion]

So the permit would be in addition to my license?

 

 

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

Washington State Parks had a similar issue. Most of their parks are seasonally closed. But they were running a GeoTour. One of their directors issued a memo (and published on their web site) allowing permission for geocachers to enter closed parks. You didn't have to carry a permit, nor did you have to carry a copy of the memo. I kept a copy with me just to be safe.

 

If you go over to the GeoTours forum, there is a thread on the WA State Park GeoTour. The memo might be mentioned there. At the least, you can get the Geocacher Name for the person that was in charge of the GeoTour.

[+cerberus1]

We've been to a few places that required a form filled out (printed from their site) releasing them of any issues while climbing, and it had to be with you while there.

We've also visited parks that had a sign-in with just name/address.

 

A nearby state has a few we've flat-out refused (and a few CITOs here as well).

I don't feel they need to have my driver's lic info, or any other non-essential information, simply to access "their" paid-by-my-taxes park.

[+cerberus1]

If I were you I think I'd consider my responsibility to the Forest Preserve outranks my status as a GC hobbyist.

 

Bottom line is, you don't allow people in the Preserve at night. Why would you compromise that rule for a game?

+`1

[+Joe_L]

How about proposing to change the hours of operation to close at, say, 11:00 PM or midnight? I am assuming that the ordinance is a set of rules created by the Preserve Board.

 

Even with a permit, the approach in the original post puts more burden on the local police. They have to have the knowledge of the existence and availability of the permit, which is a communication issue. Another consideration is the cacher's vehicle - what is a local police officer to make of a car parked on the grounds of the preserve when there are clearly signs that say "preserve closed at sunset"? Is their procedure to get out and inspect it, then call in a license plate check or even a tow? There is a potential for a lot of wasted time here.

 

 

Joe

[TahoeJoe]

Evertime I hike in the Desolation Wilderness area where I live you must fill out a permit even for a day hike. I wouldn't think twice about it.

I don't know where you live, but it sounds like Hell.

 

As to the OP's question, as soon as I saw the permit required part, I'd roll my eyes and go next! I mean, I'm sure you have a nice forest preserve (prairie) and all that, but there are two million other caches on the planet, and most don't require paperwork. Something about it rankles me.

 

Those are my two bits, spend them wherever you can.

It's just a short form at the trailhead with date, name of group leader, number of people in your group, destination, time in and estimated time out. It's a way of tracking usage and helps when someone goes missing in the mountains and they have a general idea where to start looking. It's really not that big of a deal, it just takes a minute to fill out and drop in the box at the trailhead.

[+dprovan]

There are many caches in my area that are on restricted trails that require paying a fee to get a permit. I didn't blink, and my impression is that most people that go into those areas for those caches also got the permit.

 

I'm not sure that answers your question. On the one hand, geocachers are willing to go to a significant effort to get permission to seek caches. And they'd do it in spades for a night cache. One thing about night caches is that they are often, in my experience, organized expeditions, so it's more likely that at least one person will feel responsible enough to print the permission form, so you'll have more success if the permission form is for a group rather than an individual.

 

On the other hand, people are less likely to bother and remember if they don't take it seriously, and I suspect that if the "permission" is granted by simply printing out a web page, many will think it's probably no big deal if they don't have that trivial paper work.

 

I love night caches, and I love places that go out of their way to support geocaching, so I hope you can pull it off.

Edited March 3, 2017 by dprovan

[+ByronForestPreserve]

Would you?

Sure.

 

My question is how a meaningless self-printed waiver addresses your General Use Ordinance's requirement that after-dusk use requires the presence of preserve staff. Does the permit/waiver also deputize the geocachers to be unpaid preserve staff?

 

It's worded "with permission" I think. We do have one primitive camp site used by Boy Scouts, so there are exceptions. Honestly, I opened a can of worms asking the Risk Management contact, because she said we should already be using a night permit/waiver for evening programs like night hikes, observatory use, glow in the dark golfing, and so on. Oops.

 

Hmmm...a paper at the trailhead would absolutely work. We have one location already that I was thinking of using...it's our equine preserve, and people have to fill out a form to take their horses on the trail. It's far enough away from our main buildings that the police don't patrol the parking lot. It would be much easier to tell the police department that an empty car there means a geocacher...I can't think of why anyone would walk out on the prairie at night there otherwise, where they could certainly be up to mischief at our main site. Good thinking. EDITED TO ADD: Oh. Duh. A multi-cache! First waypoint takes them to a box with the laminated permit, which they must carry with them and has instructions for the rest of it. I'll just have to keep an eye out and make sure there are always copies available.

 

Several others of you bring up good suggestions and points. I have been asked by the board and the director to expand geocaching on our property. Isn't that great? We were very nearly set up to do a Geotour last year, but a deck renovation bid came in way over budget, so we didn't get the funding for a tour. However I have enough budgeted to order a Geocoin, good containers, food and prizes for an event, and whatever else I need. Geocaching fits in very well with our mission and draws the right number of people for the cost--not so many that they trash delicate areas, but enough to spread the word about our hiking trails and amenities. We are opening new preserves this summer, so it's a good way to get a few extra people out and draw them to places where we want people.

 

The reason I'm thinking of a night cache in particular is because I want to add as many diverse caches as possible this spring with the idea of "something for everyone." Since I am not setting up a geotour, I figure that this is a good way to draw people from farther away. Yes, I'll list it as a Geo Trail, but that's another topic.

 

Thanks for the great responses!

Edited March 3, 2017 by ByronForestPreserve

[+JL_HSTRE]

I believe Clan Riffster has/had a couple night caches east of Orlando, FL that were in a State Forest that required an overnight permit.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I would, but my bigger concern is that so many people don't read the cache page that they won't know they're supposed to do that.

 

NIght caches are usually mystery/unknowns with that published coordinates that differ from the final. So just make sure that the published coordinates start outside the preserves property and construct it such that nobody would know which way to go without reading the complete listing. The permit could be a document which also includes key information for how to proceed from the published coordinates.

 

 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Evertime I hike in the Desolation Wilderness area where I live you must fill out a permit even for a day hike. I wouldn't think twice about it.

I don't know where you live, but it sounds like Hell.

 

As to the OP's question, as soon as I saw the permit required part, I'd roll my eyes and go next! I mean, I'm sure you have a nice forest preserve (prairie) and all that, but there are two million other caches on the planet, and most don't require paperwork. Something about it rankles me.

 

Those are my two bits, spend them wherever you can.

 

I've gone backpacking in desolation wilderness a few times. It's totally worth the effort it takes to fill out a permit.

[+Touchstone]

We have a couple of preserves that are entry by permit only. Never had any issues as far as I know. Kind of considered basic planning 101, to look and see what, if any, requirements and fees are required before going out caching.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I hike a lot, and have several caches hidden in the Newark Watershed. And have found a number of caches there. Hiking is by permit only (as are all other activities). I carry the permit in my wallet. I also have a parking permit decal on my car window. Of course, this doesn't seem to stop the ATVers. ATVs are not permitted. But usually, there are more of them than hikers.

For your proposed cache, I like the concept of the permit at the first stage. If it's at the parking lot, a parking permit would also be nice. But it would require a lot of maintenance to make sure that they are always available.

[+hzoi]

I think the problem with asking the question in the forum is that you are getting the anecdotal opinions of a small number of geocachers who frequent this digital hangout.

 

On the one hand, I have gotten permits to hike places or camp in places, like the magnificent Aravaipa Canyon Wilderness Area north of Tucson. So in theory, yes, I would get a permit if I was required to get a permit to go for a cache.

 

On the other hand, in practice, my expectation is that I do not need to have permission ahead of time in order to go hunt for a geocache. The implicit promise that a cache owner makes when they submit a cache for publication is that adequate permission has been obtained to hide the cache. So my personal expectation is that the fact that the geocache is hidden there is my permit to be on the premises.

 

I have gotten a permit for geocaching once: it's required for any back country recreation on Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, and I thought I'd be going for many more than I ended up doing, so I got the yearly permit. (I'm also a DOD ID card holder and didn't want any career repercussions out of going after a geocache in Uncle sam's back yard.)

 

I knew that I was supposed to have one for caching on state trust land in Arizona, but I never bothered and just took my chances. Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I don't really feel bad about it.

Edited March 3, 2017 by hzoi

[+bflentje]

I would not be likely to even know about a permit until I was far away from my printer. And I think it's a stupid idea. What does the permit solve? Nothing. It's a ridiculous statement of power. Either let the cachers cache or lock the gate. Bunch a garbage if you ask me.

[+noncentric]

To the OP, yes - I would print and carry a permit if it was required, although stocking permits at the 1st waypoint would be preferable and make things easier for me as a finder. To avoid non-cachers from taking those permits, you could put a combo padlock on that 1st waypoint and include the combo in the cache description.

 

On the other hand, in practice, my expectation is that I do not need to have permission ahead of time in order to go hunt for a geocache. The implicit promise that a cache owner makes when they submit a cache for publication is that adequate permission has been obtained to hide the cache. So my personal expectation is that the fact that the geocache is hidden there is my permit to be on the premises.

My opinion differs a bit. While I do assume permission to hide has been obtained, I don't assume permission to seek at any time that works for me. For example, there are public parks that are closed at certain hours. I don't assume that I can search for caches there during their closed hours. Thankfully, many of those caches mention the limited hours in the cache description and/or include the "NOT 24/7" attribute.

[Luckless]

Seems like you have two reasons for wanting to have a permit- one is liability and the other is access- is that right?

There is a place near here where you need to go to their office and sign a paper agreeing that you are liable for all risks if you want to hike on their land. Thought about maybe making a multi there with the first stage a stop at the office to sign the paper and get the coordinates. They want people to sign the paper agreeing to accept all risks because they allow hunting on their property. If someone doesn't have the paper then they would be trespassing. (Might be good to run that by a lawyer just to be sure it would hold up in court.)

As far as access goes...it will be hard to tell those who should be there from those who shouldn't without regular patrols. I have a pass that allows me to hike on college property. Campus police will check. They patrol regularly. More often than not though, when I'm there, no one asks...unless I'm looking particularly like a troublemaker.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Luckless

[+hzoi]

To the OP, yes - I would print and carry a permit if it was required, although stocking permits at the 1st waypoint would be preferable and make things easier for me as a finder. To avoid non-cachers from taking those permits, you could put a combo padlock on that 1st waypoint and include the combo in the cache description.

 

On the other hand, in practice, my expectation is that I do not need to have permission ahead of time in order to go hunt for a geocache. The implicit promise that a cache owner makes when they submit a cache for publication is that adequate permission has been obtained to hide the cache. So my personal expectation is that the fact that the geocache is hidden there is my permit to be on the premises.

My opinion differs a bit. While I do assume permission to hide has been obtained, I don't assume permission to seek at any time that works for me. For example, there are public parks that are closed at certain hours. I don't assume that I can search for caches there during their closed hours. Thankfully, many of those caches mention the limited hours in the cache description and/or include the "NOT 24/7" attribute.

Well, yes, I do not read cache placement as blanket permission to visit at any time. Since I seldom cache at night, I make sure that when I do, it's in a spot where such activity is copacetic.

[+Mudfrog]

Would you? Would it be worth the hassle? Anyone have alternate suggestions?

Yes! I tend not to read low difficulty traditional cache pages as there is usually nothing to them. But on the more difficult traditionals, and all other types of caches, i always read. Printing out the permit would be part of the cache and would add to the adventure for me.

 

I know there are probably some people that never read any cache pages. On the other hand, i would think that if this is listed as a mystery or multi, with a higher than 2 difficulty, then most people would take a closer look at the description. Only thing i can think of that might make it more foolproof would be to title the cache something like "Permit Required, A Night Cache" or something to that affect.

[+ByronForestPreserve]

Thanks, all. Sounds like I should make it mystery or multi, and probably leave something at the site that works as a temporary permit, to address folks caching on the fly (at...night? I guess) who don't have a printer. Now on to the planning stage, and finding a few night caches to get a feel for them.