Comment left in one of my Caches

[+Team Microdot]

Amelia Bedilia interrupts yet another thread

 

I personally feel that as a non-native speaker of English Cezanne's use of English is somewhat better than some native speakers of English here.

 

In any case it's perhaps apt, given the direction this thread has taken that I consider your comment inappropriate and unhelpful.

My post was not attributed to Cezanne.

 

I could post just the word "black" in a thread and a group of individuals would argue the word for pages.

 

Assuming then that it's attributed to Narcissa there are times when I might agree with you - but this isn't one of them.

[+narcissa]

It's so easy to switch to other words. I've used these words too, until it was pointed out to me by affected people that they were hurtful. I certainly have the freedom to keep using these words, but now that I know better, why would I?

 

You can of course choose whichever words you wish, however using lame e.g. in the sense of a lame verse cannot be replaced by bad verse or anything else which means exactly the same. If someone feels hurt by this usage I guess it is because these people are not familiar with all the nuances of lame.

 

When one uses the term "limping comparison" it's also anything else than disrespectful to people who limp or go lame.

 

The problem with a one word log is of course that context is missing and context is very important in language usage.

 

When the word in question is part of a long history of prejudice against a particular group of people, why defend it? We're not talking about individual people getting their feelings hurt. It's a bigger issue. The message, when use of these words is vigorously defended, is that certain people don't matter and geocaching doesn't care about making the game welcoming to people in certain groups. It shouldn't be controversial to care about these things.

[+bflentje]

Those who pretend to care the most actually offend the most.

[+redsox_mark]

I didn't think lame was a big deal until it came up with someone who had good reason to feel hurt by it. I think it's hard for most of us to appreciate how these small things can really wear of people who are already downtrodden. It's such a small adjustment to avoid using a word that can easily be replaced with many other words.

 

I was coming from the perspective of what I would find offensive in a log as a cache owner. Before this thread, if I had a log on one of my caches saying it was "lame" I would simply think they didn't like it. It wouldn't register in my mind as offensive. Now when I see it, I will think of this thread, but will still not treat it as offensive. I.e. I wouldn't delete the log. I agree with you nicer words can be used, but it's not offensive in my view. And it's not a word I use myself. I think that is more of a generational thing.

 

If someone logs my cache is "gay", I would find it offensive and want them to change it.

 

There are other words which some people will find offensive and others not. Then there are those few words which most understand can't be used.. even if it is the name of an Austrian village.

[+narcissa]

I didn't think lame was a big deal until it came up with someone who had good reason to feel hurt by it. I think it's hard for most of us to appreciate how these small things can really wear of people who are already downtrodden. It's such a small adjustment to avoid using a word that can easily be replaced with many other words.

 

I was coming from the perspective of what I would find offensive in a log as a cache owner. Before this thread, if I had a log on one of my caches saying it was "lame" I would simply think they didn't like it. It wouldn't register in my mind as offensive. Now when I see it, I will think of this thread, but will still not treat it as offensive. I.e. I wouldn't delete the log. I agree with you nicer words can be used, but it's not offensive in my view. And it's not a word I use myself. I think that is more of a generational thing.

 

If someone logs my cache is "gay", I would find it offensive and want them to change it.

 

There are other words which some people will find offensive and others not. Then there are those few words which most understand can't be used.. even if it is the name of an Austrian village.

 

My main concern is that someone new will try out the game, see this careless language in logs, and figure that they're not welcome to play. In this regard, I think "gay" is probably far worse.

 

For words like "lame," it's just a disappointment when someone knows a word is problematic but deliberately uses it anyway. It says a lot about a person's character when, given the choice between "it's my right to use whatever word I want" and "oh, I didn't think of it that way, I'll try to do better," they opt for the former.

 

It's all fine and dandy to argue about semantics among people who aren't being hurt by these words, but when a person tells me "this word hurts; here's why," I know my best course of action is to believe what he/she has to say about it and try to do better. I don't have to be personally offended by a word to appreciate someone else's experience with it.

 

For me, it took someone actually comparing the two for me to learn that I should try to use other words. I regret that I didn't have the sensitivity to figure that out on my own, so I am more careful now.

Edited February 23, 2017 by narcissa

[+Manville Possum]

I recall that there is a Gay Geocachers group announced their self in the forums. I don't think we would be allowed a Straight People only group, so I believe it's time to move on.

[+GeoBain]

From Urban dictionary.

 

A slang term usually used to describe something stupid or just all around bad, or someone who is being stupid...

 

Let the log stay and move on.

 

We are all adults who know darn well that this term, used this way, is an inexcusable slur against a specific group of people. It has no place in this game, and it is appalling to see the forum trying to defend this.

 

You could not be more wrong.

 

You may automatically assume it to be an inexcusable slur against homosexuals.

 

When I read the OP, my first thought was "what is the big deal? The guy thiught his cache was lame. Why let it bother you so much?"

[+narcissa]

When I read the OP, my first thought was "what is the big deal? The guy thiught his cache was lame. Why let it bother you so much?"

 

Helpful example of how it can be difficult for someone to appreciate the issue when he/she isn't directly affected by it. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but equating a poor geocaching experience with gay people is totally needless. As I've said, my concern is that it's something careless that contributes to an unwelcoming environment in the game. It's very easy to fix.

[+GeoBain]

The word "gay" has a long history of being used in a derogatory fashion. It's disgusting that the forum would use semantics to excuse such behaviour.

 

Some of us just happen to know that kids use the term to mean lame, with no added hidden meaning of a sexual nature. Kids have been doing that with language for many years.

 

What is really disgusting is that someone would make generalized assumptions about an entire forum while at the same time she is seemingly denouncing the generalizing of people based on their sexual preferences. This seems a little hypocritical.

[+GeoBain]

When I read the OP, my first thought was "what is the big deal? The guy thiught his cache was lame. Why let it bother you so much?"

 

Helpful example of how it can be difficult for someone to appreciate the issue when he/she isn't directly affected by it. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but equating a poor geocaching experience with gay people is totally needless. As I've said, my concern is that it's something careless that contributes to an unwelcoming environment in the game. It's very easy to fix.

 

And I agree with Dprovan, that since it could be interpreted by some in the manner as you and some others have, that it is probably not a bad idea to delete the log.

 

However, the fact that it CAN be interpreted that way does not it was MEANT that way. And it also doesn't mean that those who point this fact out are homophobes. It just means that some of us realize the word can mean different things in different contexts. In the context of a geocache, it was probably mean as lame. But you'd have to ask the guy who wrote it if you want to be sure.

[+Manville Possum]

 

Some of us just happen to know that kids use the term to mean lame, with no added hidden meaning of a sexual nature. Kids have been doing that with language for many years.

 

 

Dude, my teenage daughter says I'm a hipster. This topic went dank already.

[+narcissa]

The word "gay" has a long history of being used in a derogatory fashion. It's disgusting that the forum would use semantics to excuse such behaviour.

 

Some of us just happen to know that kids use the term to mean lame, with no added hidden meaning of a sexual nature. Kids have been doing that with language for many years.

 

It is often the case that people of all ages use these words carelessly, without appreciating the impact they have on people. That doesn't mean we should excuse or condone language that is known to be hurtful.

 

I really don't want gay people to feel they're unwelcome in this game. If we carelessly leave these words around, that's the message we're sending. I guess some people don't care about that, and that's very disappointing.

[+narcissa]

When I read the OP, my first thought was "what is the big deal? The guy thiught his cache was lame. Why let it bother you so much?"

 

Helpful example of how it can be difficult for someone to appreciate the issue when he/she isn't directly affected by it. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but equating a poor geocaching experience with gay people is totally needless. As I've said, my concern is that it's something careless that contributes to an unwelcoming environment in the game. It's very easy to fix.

 

And I agree with Dprovan, that since it could be interpreted by some in the manner as you and some others have, that it is probably not a bad idea to delete the log.

 

However, the fact that it CAN be interpreted that way does not it was MEANT that way. And it also doesn't mean that those who point this fact out are homophobes. It just means that some of us realize the word can mean different things in different contexts. In the context of a geocache, it was probably mean as lame. But you'd have to ask the guy who wrote it if you want to be sure.

 

I don't think careless use of a word makes anybody anything. We all make mistakes. I think it's the staunch refusal to do better that delineates mistakes and character.

[+Manville Possum]

I really don't want gay people to feel they're unwelcome in this game.

 

Sorry, but I've met quite a few gay geocachers and they have been very much part of this hobby from the beginning.

[+Team DEMP]

http://www.glaad.org/reference/offensive

 

"Gay" doesn't seem to be offensive this week. Check back next week and see what changes. Check back the week after for what is ok or not.

[+GeoBain]

The logical conclusion is that they were just using "gay" as a synonym for "lame".

 

Did you say that on purpose? Now the thread will tangent to slandering those that have physical disabilities Oh boy, here it comes!

 

I'm a cripple and I take offense to that! /sarcasm

 

Regarding "lame," I agree. One rarely hears the term used to describe the state of someone's physical abilities these days.

 

I prefer gimpy.

 

When someone deliberately equates these words with negative meanings, the implication is that being gay or disabled is negative.

 

That horse with a broken leg is lame. No problem!

 

That person who enjoys romantic or sexual relationships with other people of the same gender is gay. No problem!

 

I don't like your cache therefore it's lame. Not okay! It's used here to denote negativity, therefore implying that having a disability is negative. (It seems unlikely that a cache is physically disabled.)

 

I am calling BS on this.

 

I have been disabled all my life. For the last 10 years or so, I have been in a wheelchair. You cannot get much more lame than me. And I realize that lame in the context of a cache is not the same as degrading me or any other disabled person. Unless you are disabled yourself, leave the being offended about being called lame to those of us actually affected by it. You'll probably find us to be a bit less offended than you think.

 

Those who pretend to care the most actually offend the most.

 

That pretty much sums up political correctness for me.

[+narcissa]

When someone deliberately equates these words with negative meanings, the implication is that being gay or disabled is negative.

 

That horse with a broken leg is lame. No problem!

 

That person who enjoys romantic or sexual relationships with other people of the same gender is gay. No problem!

 

I don't like your cache therefore it's lame. Not okay! It's used here to denote negativity, therefore implying that having a disability is negative. (It seems unlikely that a cache is physically disabled.)

 

I have been disabled all my life. For the last 10 years or so, I have been in a wheelchair. You cannot get much more lame than me. And I realize that lame in the context of a cache is not the same as degrading me or any other disabled person. Unless you are disabled yourself, leave the being offended about being called lame to those of us actually affected by it. You'll probably find us to be a bit less offended than you think.

 

 

While I'm glad that you're not personally offended by the language, I don't think that means we can't all try to do better to avoid hurting people who are affected by it. As I mentioned, my use of the word was pointed out to me by someone who does have a disability and does find it hurtful. Now that I know better, there's no reason not to change.

 

I'm not hurting anyone by avoiding the word, but I'm potentially hurting some people if I do use it. So the easy choice is to not use it. It's a very simple thing to fix. The consequences of using another word are zero, as long as that word is chosen carefully.

 

Note: I've edited out some portions of the original quotes because they contain deliberately provocative, vulgar and hurtful language that needn't be replicated in my own comments.

[+GeoBain]

Note: I've edited out some portions of the original quotes because they contain deliberately provocative, vulgar and hurtful language that needn't be replicated in my own comments.

 

I'm not sure what your intention is with that "Note:", so I will just exit this discussion before any other misunderstandings occur on my part.

 

I'll just quote Hanlon's Razor: "Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding."

[+narcissa]

Note: I've edited out some portions of the original quotes because they contain deliberately provocative, vulgar and hurtful language that needn't be replicated in my own comments.

 

I'm not sure what your intention is with that "Note:", so I will just exit this discussion before any other misunderstandings occur on my part.

 

I'll just quote Hanlon's Razor: "Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding."

 

Oh, my intention was just to be clear about why the quote was trimmed down to those sections. I try to avoid trimming or mashing people's words together. In this instance there was some objectionable content from a few users that I did not wish to perpetuate by quoting, so I wanted to be transparent about what I did.

 

I like the quotation you've included, but again I have to wonder why neglect and misunderstanding should continue after they've been pointed out. We all make mistakes. Why not try to do better next time?

[+Manville Possum]

I almost forgot about this log on one of my geocache listings.

 

It was funny, and the best log posted to the cache listing so far.

[+noncentric]

When I read the OP, my first thought was "what is the big deal? The guy thiught his cache was lame. Why let it bother you so much?"

Helpful example of how it can be difficult for someone to appreciate the issue when he/she isn't directly affected by it. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but equating a poor geocaching experience with gay people is totally needless. As I've said, my concern is that it's something careless that contributes to an unwelcoming environment in the game. It's very easy to fix.

And I agree with Dprovan, that since it could be interpreted by some in the manner as you and some others have, that it is probably not a bad idea to delete the log.

 

However, the fact that it CAN be interpreted that way does not it was MEANT that way. And it also doesn't mean that those who point this fact out are homophobes. It just means that some of us realize the word can mean different things in different contexts. In the context of a geocache, it was probably mean as lame. But you'd have to ask the guy who wrote it if you want to be sure.

 

I don't think careless use of a word makes anybody anything. We all make mistakes. I think it's the staunch refusal to do better that delineates mistakes and character.

[bolding mine]

Going back in this thread. In reference to the cacher that left the log noted by the OP, you didn't care whether the cacher simply made a mistake in using the word they used. Instead of thinking of them as simply being careless, you characterized their log as "vandalism", "destructive, impulsive stupidity", "bad behaviour", "an inexcusable slur" and the cacher a "miscreant". That seems unwelcoming to cachers that may have simply been unaware that the word they used was hurtful. Maybe they simply weren't enlightened to how some people could be offended by their use of 'gay'.

 

---------------------

I'll make a mental note that using the word "dumb" is hurtful to people that cannot speak, even if the word is used to describe an action that is the opposite of smart. Noted!

[+J Grouchy]

Interesting discussion about language and how it evolves.

 

If someone says a cache is lame, I don't see that as a slur against the disabled. In "proper" dictionaries, lame has a second, commonly used meaning. Sure, the use of the second meaning evolved from the first meaning, but when used in this context, lame simply means (of an explanation or excuse) unconvincingly feeble.

"it was a lame statement and there was no excusing his behavior". Synonyms: feeble, weak, thin, flimsy, poor, sorry.

 

When someone is talking negatively about something, and says "that is so gay" I'm uncomfortable with that. It is different than lame, at least to me.

 

As this was a DNF, it is highly likely that the log was using the word in a negative context. Sure, it could be a typo/auto correct. Or less likely, they felt lighthearted and carefree about the DNF. So I don't think the log was appropriate.

 

Regarding "lame," I agree. One rarely hears the term used to describe the state of someone's physical abilities these days. (On the other hand, I'm sure that there are folks who are less mobile than I, who are more sensitive to such things, and would disagree.)

 

Regarding "gay," also concur. I used it all the time when I was a teen, without even thinking about it. I'd like to say it has disappeared from my vocabulary, but now and again my brain still lets it get out there, to my chagrin. Kind of along the same lines as the word "retarded." I once flippantly used that around close family friends whose son has Downs syndrome. I felt about a millimeter tall after that.

 

^^ I agree with all of that.

 

Now, it's pretty clear to me - as it should be to anyone - that log came from someone of limited maturity. Most likely a preteen or teenager. Not only would they probably ignore any attempt to contact them requesting they change the log, they probably wouldn't do so even if they paid attention. Chances are deletion is the safest route. It's your cache page and it's fairly clear they violated the guideline, so if you want it gone, there is no issue.

[+redsox_mark]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I can't resist...

 

"Dumb" is an interesting example. According to the usage guidelines in my favourite dictionary (Oxford):

 

Although dumb meaning ‘not able to speak’ is the older sense, it has been overwhelmed by the newer sense (meaning ‘stupid’) to such an extent that the use of the first sense is now almost certain to cause offence. Alternatives such as speech-impaired should be used instead

 

As I said, language evolves. In the case of dumb, to the point where using the word "dumb" to mean stupid is accepted and not offensive. But use of the word in it's original meaning is. I think lame is a bit like that too.

 

I suppose if the use of Gay to mean "Foolish, stupid, or unimpressive" becomes the main use of the word, that in the future we would need another word for the sexual preference meaning.

 

I still feel that in today's usage, using Gay to mean "Foolish, stupid, or unimpressive" is offensive, and my favourite dictionary agrees. I would not assume the person using that word was being intentionally offensive. But - bringing it back on topic - I would message the person who wrote the log and ask them to change it, as it may cause offense.

 

We will never get everyone to agree which words are offensive and which are not. Again, except a few words.... the kind of words that if you use them in this forum would get you banned. (I don't think gay is one of those).

[+hzoi]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I can't resist...

 

"Dumb" is an interesting example. According to the usage guidelines in my favourite dictionary (Oxford):

 

Although dumb meaning ‘not able to speak’ is the older sense, it has been overwhelmed by the newer sense (meaning ‘stupid’) to such an extent that the use of the first sense is now almost certain to cause offence. Alternatives such as speech-impaired should be used instead

 

As I said, language evolves. In the case of dumb, to the point where using the word "dumb" to mean stupid is accepted and not offensive. But use of the word in it's original meaning is. I think lame is a bit like that too.

 

I suppose if the use of Gay to mean "Foolish, stupid, or unimpressive" becomes the main use of the word, that in the future we would need another word for the sexual preference meaning.

 

I still feel that in today's usage, using Gay to mean "Foolish, stupid, or unimpressive" is offensive, and my favourite dictionary agrees. I would not assume the person using that word was being intentionally offensive. But - bringing it back on topic - I would message the person who wrote the log and ask them to change it, as it may cause offense.

 

We will never get everyone to agree which words are offensive and which are not. Again, except a few words.... the kind of words that if you use them in this forum would get you banned. (I don't think gay is one of those).

I can't believe you spelled "favorite" with an extraneous "U." I am mortally offended.

[+Rebore]

Those who pretend to care the most actually offend the most.

 

Thank you for expressing my feelings about this discussion so well with just a few words.

It really makes my blood boil when folks think handicapped people must be treated in a special way because they are "special".

[+narcissa]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I can't resist...

 

"Dumb" is an interesting example. According to the usage guidelines in my favourite dictionary (Oxford):

 

Although dumb meaning ‘not able to speak’ is the older sense, it has been overwhelmed by the newer sense (meaning ‘stupid’) to such an extent that the use of the first sense is now almost certain to cause offence. Alternatives such as speech-impaired should be used instead

 

As I said, language evolves. In the case of dumb, to the point where using the word "dumb" to mean stupid is accepted and not offensive. But use of the word in it's original meaning is. I think lame is a bit like that too.

 

I suppose if the use of Gay to mean "Foolish, stupid, or unimpressive" becomes the main use of the word, that in the future we would need another word for the sexual preference meaning.

 

I still feel that in today's usage, using Gay to mean "Foolish, stupid, or unimpressive" is offensive, and my favourite dictionary agrees. I would not assume the person using that word was being intentionally offensive. But - bringing it back on topic - I would message the person who wrote the log and ask them to change it, as it may cause offense.

 

We will never get everyone to agree which words are offensive and which are not. Again, except a few words.... the kind of words that if you use them in this forum would get you banned. (I don't think gay is one of those).

 

There are lots of things that can cause offense. "Offended" is a moving goal-post.

 

I am concerned when people in this game act in a way that makes geocaching seem unwelcoming or unsafe to other geocachers, or to people who might be trying to join in. This game isn't unwelcoming or unsafe. It would be a real shame to see people leave with that impression.

 

Imagine someone checking out the game for the first time. He or she clicks on a cache, scrolls down the cache page a bit, and sees some jerk shouting at the cache owner that his/her cache is GAY. What impression does that give about the people who play this game?

 

The cost to avoid that? Absolutely nothing. The semantics aren't important. We can do better.

[+redsox_mark]

 

Imagine someone checking out the game for the first time. He or she clicks on a cache, scrolls down the cache page a bit, and sees some jerk shouting at the cache owner that his/her cache is GAY. What impression does that give about the people who play this game?

 

The cost to avoid that? Absolutely nothing. The semantics aren't important. We can do better.

 

I agree.

[+Team Microdot]

Those who pretend to care the most actually offend the most.

 

Thank you for expressing my feelings about this discussion so well with just a few words.

It really makes my blood boil when folks think handicapped people must be treated in a special way because they are "special".

 

I was once invited to run for election to the Geoocaching Association of Great Britain committee. Each candidate had to have a simple manifesto and take part in a Q & A with the community about that manifesto.

 

At the time I, and a few others in my area had been investing some time posting cache ratings on a service aimed at providing more detailed D/T information to cachers with disabilities and so I was questioned on that.

 

One person became quite irate at being referred to as disabled. Handicapped was an absolute swear-word as far as this person was concerned. Despite my best intentions and efforts the dialogue with this person became protracted, difficult and uncomfortable - for me at least. In a nutshell, as far as this person was concerned, every term I used was wrong and constituted an insult to people who were not disabled or handicapped but rather had impairments and society disabled them by not facilitating their impairments.

 

Clearly some people with impairments expect special treatment.

 

Looks like whatever strategy we adopt, someone's blood will boil

[+Rebore]

Those who pretend to care the most actually offend the most.

 

Thank you for expressing my feelings about this discussion so well with just a few words.

It really makes my blood boil when folks think handicapped people must be treated in a special way because they are "special".

 

I was once invited to run for election to the Geoocaching Association of Great Britain committee. Each candidate had to have a simple manifesto and take part in a Q & A with the community about that manifesto.

 

At the time I, and a few others in my area had been investing some time posting cache ratings on a service aimed at providing more detailed D/T information to cachers with disabilities and so I was questioned on that.

 

One person became quite irate at being referred to as disabled. Handicapped was an absolute swear-word as far as this person was concerned. Despite my best intentions and efforts the dialogue with this person became protracted, difficult and uncomfortable - for me at least. In a nutshell, as far as this person was concerned, every term I used was wrong and constituted an insult to people who were not disabled or handicapped but rather had impairments and society disabled them by not facilitating their impairments.

 

Clearly some people with impairments expect special treatment.

 

Looks like whatever strategy we adopt, someone's blood will boil

 

Among my family members are mentally and physically challenged human beings. I refer to them by their first name.

A friend of mine has a child born with down syndrome, that's Nico.

During my compulsory paid community service I have worked with people who knew that they will die in the near future.

 

Yes, it's not easy to handle these people if you are confronted with those facts for the very first time, and it's absolutely normal that both parties are uncomfortable.

I don't think any of the advocates of political correctness in this thread have similar experience, so I would recommend the movie "Intouchables" to them.

[+Team Microdot]

Those who pretend to care the most actually offend the most.

 

Thank you for expressing my feelings about this discussion so well with just a few words.

It really makes my blood boil when folks think handicapped people must be treated in a special way because they are "special".

 

I was once invited to run for election to the Geoocaching Association of Great Britain committee. Each candidate had to have a simple manifesto and take part in a Q & A with the community about that manifesto.

 

At the time I, and a few others in my area had been investing some time posting cache ratings on a service aimed at providing more detailed D/T information to cachers with disabilities and so I was questioned on that.

 

One person became quite irate at being referred to as disabled. Handicapped was an absolute swear-word as far as this person was concerned. Despite my best intentions and efforts the dialogue with this person became protracted, difficult and uncomfortable - for me at least. In a nutshell, as far as this person was concerned, every term I used was wrong and constituted an insult to people who were not disabled or handicapped but rather had impairments and society disabled them by not facilitating their impairments.

 

Clearly some people with impairments expect special treatment.

 

Looks like whatever strategy we adopt, someone's blood will boil

 

Among my family members are mentally and physically challenged human beings. I refer to them by their first name.

A friend of mine has a child born with down syndrome, that's Nico.

During my compulsory paid community service I have worked with people who knew that they will die in the near future.

 

Yes, it's not easy to handle these people if you are confronted with those facts for the very first time, and it's absolutely normal that both parties are uncomfortable.

I don't think any of the advocates of political correctness in this thread have similar experience, so I would recommend the movie "Intouchables" to them.

 

If you're making some point here I'm not sure what it is.

[+brodiebunch]

Those who pretend to care the most actually offend the most.

 

That's a great line. I need to remember that.

 

Gay used in that sense means the geocacher is probably younger and probably means "lame".

 

Consider that they found more than one means they are now expert at geocaching.

 

Therefore your cache was not a challenging enough for their finely honed skills (that is sarcasm, btw)

 

I am gay and not offended by the log post but its not my cache.