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RakeInTheCache

Monks of War group now accepting officers

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I joined -- my oldest daughter is fascinated by the history of the Crusades :)

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The period of the Templars and the Crusades has been one of my favorite reading moments since I was a very young child. It is a passion that has never been extinct. I have just turned 60 and am still passionate.

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So -- just to be clear, am I Waymarking places where Knights of Malta (as an example) ARE, or places where they have BEEN doing things, even if just once?

 

Our Dallas KoM chapter feeds homeless folks every weekend at a vacant lot in South Dallas. Can I waymark that lot, even if the KoM are not there (I would not ever take pictures of KoM feeding hungry homeless people).

 

KoM have donated to Scottish Rite Hospital in Dallas - can I waymark SRH in this category, even though there aren't any plaques about the donation?

 

KoM work with St Vincent De Paul and Catholic Charities -- do I waymark the SVdeP and Catholic Charities thrift stores? Offices?

 

KoM have their meetings and special Masses at St Monica's Catholic Church. I presume I could waymark St Monica's in this category?

 

What level of proof would be required to waymark a place in this category? Will news articles be acceptable? Websites?

 

What is the point of this waymark category? Is it to focus on the history of the chivalric organization, the locations where they are, or the things that they do?

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to wrap my mind around what I would be Waymarking.

 

These aren't standalone locations that could be waymarked. The Order operates from within other organisations or is part of an appeal or fund in times of emergency. The Order has an office in Darlinghurst, Sydney.

 

Coming back to these posts from another thread, I am still interested in including sites related to the modern incarnations of these orders and their works of charity. To try and nail this down.

 

To qualify the site linked to charity must be a permanant structure sheltering a benefitting organization - so no vacant lots.

There must be at minimum a web link describing the relationship between the site and the organization - Scottish Rite Hospital in Dallas and the others would be OK as long as you could provide a link establishing the relationship.

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So -- just to be clear, am I Waymarking places where Knights of Malta (as an example) ARE, or places where they have BEEN doing things, even if just once?

 

Our Dallas KoM chapter feeds homeless folks every weekend at a vacant lot in South Dallas. Can I waymark that lot, even if the KoM are not there (I would not ever take pictures of KoM feeding hungry homeless people).

 

KoM have donated to Scottish Rite Hospital in Dallas - can I waymark SRH in this category, even though there aren't any plaques about the donation?

 

KoM work with St Vincent De Paul and Catholic Charities -- do I waymark the SVdeP and Catholic Charities thrift stores? Offices?

 

KoM have their meetings and special Masses at St Monica's Catholic Church. I presume I could waymark St Monica's in this category?

 

What level of proof would be required to waymark a place in this category? Will news articles be acceptable? Websites?

 

What is the point of this waymark category? Is it to focus on the history of the chivalric organization, the locations where they are, or the things that they do?

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to wrap my mind around what I would be Waymarking.

 

These aren't standalone locations that could be waymarked. The Order operates from within other organisations or is part of an appeal or fund in times of emergency. The Order has an office in Darlinghurst, Sydney.

 

Coming back to these posts from another thread, I am still interested in including sites related to the modern incarnations of these orders and their works of charity. To try and nail this down.

 

To qualify the site linked to charity must be a permanant structure sheltering a benefitting organization - so no vacant lots.

 

There must be at minimum a web link describing the relationship between the site and the organization - Scottish Rite Hospital in Dallas and the others would be OK as long as you could provide a link establishing the relationship.

 

I think the requirement of some structure is wise - I wasn't looking forward to creeping around South Dallas. Frankly, it's rough where the KoM are operating, but God bless them for going there.

 

If we are going to rely on a web link for proof, I would recommend that the article or web info should be copied and pasted in the long description, not just the link. Links break, and stories disappear. This requirement to copy the info would preserve the information for when the link breaks.

 

A photo of a plaque of something tangible would be great, but may not always exist. If a plaque is there though it should be photographed and placed in the gallery. I always transcribe those too --

 

How should we name these waymarks? I would recommend Name of organization - city, state/province/region, country, at a minimum.

 

Maybeshoukd we have a required variable specifying what kind of WM this is? Is it a waymark of a historic plaque or marker about the order, a historic site connected to the actions or purpose of the order (like a battlefield, statue of a famous member, crusader camp or route, church, cemetery or grave) a modern site connected to the operation of the order (like an office, church), a location of a charity work, or .... what else?

 

These are just what occurs to me now :)

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz
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OK, you can go the following link to have a look at the category write-up. http://www.Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=01b30b3b-4ca4-4b7d-8c20-3d41ee794409&gid=6&exp=True I've listed it under History and War.

 

I'm also copying the html here because if the category gets voted down I think you lose it.

 

Identifying sites related to the history, remains and works of military chivalric orders and other warrior classes having spiritual influences such as the Samurais.

 

Military chivalric orders were originally established as Catholic religious societies during the medieval Crusades for protection of Christians against violent persecution of the Islamic conquests (623–) in the Holy Land and the Iberian Peninsula, as well as by Baltic paganism in Eastern Europe.

<P>

Most members, often titled Knights, were and still are laymen, and not prelates, yet cooperating with the clergy, sometimes even taking religious vows such as poverty, chastity, and obedience, according to monastic ideals. As such, it was in the military orders that the Medieval concept of chivalry reached its apogee in an exceptionate fusion under exceptionate circumstances of military discipline and Christian virtues.

<P>

Prominent examples include the Knights Hospitaller, and the Knights Templar in Outremer, as well as the Teutonic Knights in the Baltics.

<P>

A few of the institutions survived into honorific and/or charitable organisations, including the papal orders of knighthood and are active around the world.

<P>

Samurai were the military nobility and officer caste of medieval and early-modern Japan. The philosophies of Buddhism and Zen, and to a lesser extent Confucianism and Shinto, influenced the samurai culture.

Items which are waymarked in this category are always publically accessible and always on permanant display at a fixed location. Apart from Samurai items, the orders included in this category are listed in the following Wikipedia article ; <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_order_(monastic_society)> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_order_(monastic_society)</a>. The items may include :

<P>

<ol type=a>

<li>Objects on permanent, public display (such as in museums)</li>

<li>Locations of existing or former structures built or inhabited by the orders</li>

<li>Emblems of the orders</li>

<li>Locations representing acts of charity (*see below for detailed requirements)</li>

<li>Related Battlefields</li>

<li>Related locations of historical events</li>

<li>Statues of member knights/samurais</li>

<li>Memorials, monuments and historical markers mentioning an order, member of an order, or a structure inhabited or built by an order or a samurai</li>

<li>Street names referring to an order, member of an order, or a structure inhabited or built by an order or a samurai</li>

<li>Metro stations named after an order, member of an order, or a structure inhabited or built by an order or a samurai</li>

</ol>

<P>

*When Waymarking locations related to acts of charity these must be permanant structures sheltering a benefitting organization or some kind of permanent marker or plaque in recognition of the act. If no marker or plaque is present, there must be at minimum a web link describing the relationship between the donor organization and the site. The text establishing the relationship should be copied to the long description along with an indication of the source.

<P>

You must include at least one good quality photo personally taken by the waymarker indicating the object being waymarked.

<P>

The description must clearly describe the connection of this site to the relavant spiritual warrior group/order.

<P>The waymark name should name the object being waymarked followed by a dash, the closest named place, followed by a comma, and the state/province/country. (Ex : Rue du Temple - Paris, France)

 

Posters must have physically visited the location. Uploading an original photo is strongly encouraged.

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Please correct the title... "Spiritual" instead of "Spirtual". :)

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Please correct the title... "Spiritual" instead of "Spirtual". :)

 

Done! thanks!

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The main pitfall for this category is the fact, that is is a mixture of two completely different types of category. It has some aspects of the existing charity organization categories and it has some aspects of Medieval history, and the two parts are geographically separated, more or less. I think this dilemma has been solved very well.

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I admit, I'm having difficulty understanding a category for religious warriors that have charity organizations. :unsure:

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I admit, I'm having difficulty understanding a category for religious warriors that have charity organizations. :unsure:

The Salvation Army?

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Perfect description for me

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I admit, I'm having difficulty understanding a category for religious warriors that have charity organizations. :unsure:

The Salvation Army?

 

Are we going to WM those donation boxes and Angel Trees? :unsure:

 

Sorry, but after reading more about the Salvation Army and it's mission, I'm even more confused as how it relates to Crusaders and Samari and other Military soldiers. :(

Edited by Manville Possum
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I admit, I'm having difficulty understanding a category for religious warriors that have charity organizations. :unsure:

The Salvation Army?

 

I think it was a joke, Salvation Vs Army like Warrior Vs Charity, but may be i am wrong...

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I admit, I'm having difficulty understanding a category for religious warriors that have charity organizations. :unsure:

The Salvation Army?

 

I think it was a joke, Salvation Vs Army like Warrior Vs Charity, but may be i am wrong...

 

Looks like the joke was on me then, because I was asking the question to try and understand this crazy idea. <_<

 

It won't get my support in peer review now. :mad:

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Looks like the joke was on me then, because I was asking the question to try and understand this crazy idea. <_<

 

It won't get my support in peer review now. :mad:

 

You don't like joke !!

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Looks like the joke was on me then, because I was asking the question to try and understand this crazy idea. <_<

 

It won't get my support in peer review now. :mad:

 

You don't like joke !!

 

Not when I'm asking legitimate questions about a category proposal. My opinion, it's a silly idea. Now I'm thinking that it was all just a joke.

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The main pitfall for this category is the fact, that is is a mixture of two completely different types of category. It has some aspects of the existing charity organization categories and it has some aspects of Medieval history, and the two parts are geographically separated, more or less. I think this dilemma has been solved very well.

 

But you have your answer above :

Religious warriors = Medieval history

Charity organizations = Present activity

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Actually, it wasn't intended to be a joke, but maybe it needs a bit more explanation. The Salvation Army is a charitable organization who uses a military designation in its name. Wikipedia describes the organization as having a quasi-military structure. Like the Knights of Malta, for example, it brings together charitable, religious, and military themes. It seems to me like a good comparison.

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I admit, I'm having difficulty understanding a category for religious warriors that have charity organizations. :unsure:

The Salvation Army?

 

I think it was a joke, Salvation Vs Army like Warrior Vs Charity, but may be i am wrong...

 

So i was wrong :tired:

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Actually, it wasn't intended to be a joke, but maybe it needs a bit more explanation. The Salvation Army is a charitable organization who uses a military designation in its name. Wikipedia describes the organization as having a quasi-military structure. Like the Knights of Malta, for example, it brings together charitable, religious, and military themes. It seems to me like a good comparison.

 

Please tell me that we are not accepting the Salvation Army in this category - they were founded in the 1860s and have no warrior history, they just use some basic military symbolism.

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The Salvation Army was simply an illustrative mix of warriors and charities. The Salvation Army has nothing to do with this category proposal. Don't let The Salvation Army conversation distract.

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Actually, it wasn't intended to be a joke, but maybe it needs a bit more explanation. The Salvation Army is a charitable organization who uses a military designation in its name. Wikipedia describes the organization as having a quasi-military structure. Like the Knights of Malta, for example, it brings together charitable, religious, and military themes. It seems to me like a good comparison.

 

Please tell me that we are not accepting the Salvation Army in this category - they were founded in the 1860s and have no warrior history, they just use some basic military symbolism.

 

But they help the homeless... :unsure:

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The Salvation Army was simply an illustrative mix of warriors and charities. The Salvation Army has nothing to do with this category proposal. Don't let The Salvation Army conversation distract.

 

Seems we posted about the same time. Why does the Salvation Army have nothing to do with this proposal, sounds it it meets criteria. What other groups would not be included? :unsure:

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The Salvation Army has always been a religious movement. It just happens to use military terms and symbols. It has no history in knights or chivalric movements or any history at all before the 1860s. There is no commonality between The Salvation Army and this proposed category.

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The Salvation Army has always been a religious movement. It just happens to use military terms and symbols. It has no history in knights or chivalric movements or any history at all before the 1860s. There is no commonality between The Salvation Army and this proposed category.

 

Can you better explain this category to me? Likely I'll vote against it anyway simple because I fail to understand it. :anicute:

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The Salvation Army has always been a religious movement. It just happens to use military terms and symbols. It has no history in knights or chivalric movements or any history at all before the 1860s. There is no commonality between The Salvation Army and this proposed category.

 

Yes, EXACTLY. And that should put the final nail in the coffin for this distracting red herring.

 

This category is about chivalric orders from the Middle Ages that have continued through the centuries and have transformed themselves into charitable orders that operate today.

 

Not charities with military symbolism.

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This category is about chivalric orders from the Middle Ages that have continued through the centuries and have transformed themselves into charitable orders that operate today.

 

Not charities with military symbolism.

 

Okay, now that I understand. :)

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This category is about chivalric orders from the Middle Ages that have continued through the centuries and have transformed themselves into charitable orders that operate today.

 

Not charities with military symbolism.

 

Yes, this is what the category is about. Are we all good? Do we need to change the name to make it clearer? Maybe "Legacy of Medieval Spiritual Warriors"?

Edited by RakeInTheCache
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This category is about chivalric orders from the Middle Ages that have continued through the centuries and have transformed themselves into charitable orders that operate today.

 

Not charities with military symbolism.

 

Yes, this is what the category is about. Are we all good? Do we need to change the name to make it clearer? Maybe "Legacy of Medieval Spiritual Warriors"?

 

I like that name A LOT better :)

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This category is about chivalric orders from the Middle Ages that have continued through the centuries and have transformed themselves into charitable orders that operate today.

 

Not charities with military symbolism.

 

Yes, this is what the category is about. Are we all good? Do we need to change the name to make it clearer? Maybe "Legacy of Medieval Spiritual Warriors"?

 

I like that name A LOT better :)

 

I find it less confusing. :)

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This category is about chivalric orders from the Middle Ages that have continued through the centuries and have transformed themselves into charitable orders that operate today.

 

Not charities with military symbolism.

 

Yes, this is what the category is about. Are we all good? Do we need to change the name to make it clearer? Maybe "Legacy of Medieval Spiritual Warriors"?

 

I like that name A LOT better :)

 

I find it less confusing. :)

 

Done!

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I found several temples associated with the Knights Templar. These do not reference the Knights Templar that I could determine on google street view. All are temples that I found on a website that lists these temples as "Grand Commandery Knight Templar" will these be acceptable?

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I found several temples associated with the Knights Templar. These do not reference the Knights Templar that I could determine on google street view. All are temples that I found on a website that lists these temples as "Grand Commandery Knight Templar" will these be acceptable?

The order of the Knights Templar was dissolved by the pope in 1312. So whoever runs these temples, they most probably cannot count as legitimate successors of the original order.

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I found several temples associated with the Knights Templar. These do not reference the Knights Templar that I could determine on google street view. All are temples that I found on a website that lists these temples as "Grand Commandery Knight Templar" will these be acceptable?

The order of the Knights Templar was dissolved by the pope in 1312. So whoever runs these temples, they most probably cannot count as legitimate successors of the original order.

 

What about this group?

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I found several temples associated with the Knights Templar. These do not reference the Knights Templar that I could determine on google street view. All are temples that I found on a website that lists these temples as "Grand Commandery Knight Templar" will these be acceptable?

 

Can you include or send me the link to the website?

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I found several temples associated with the Knights Templar. These do not reference the Knights Templar that I could determine on google street view. All are temples that I found on a website that lists these temples as "Grand Commandery Knight Templar" will these be acceptable?

The order of the Knights Templar was dissolved by the pope in 1312. So whoever runs these temples, they most probably cannot count as legitimate successors of the original order.

 

What about this group?

 

I'm inclined to say yes, as it seems to me to be clearly a part of the legacy.

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I found several temples associated with the Knights Templar. These do not reference the Knights Templar that I could determine on google street view. All are temples that I found on a website that lists these temples as "Grand Commandery Knight Templar" will these be acceptable?

The order of the Knights Templar was dissolved by the pope in 1312. So whoever runs these temples, they most probably cannot count as legitimate successors of the original order.

The mentioned link is the following http://www.knightstemplar.org/index.html

 

They may not be legitimate successors but they are a part of the legacy. It is part of the later Freemasonary association which is mentioned in the Wikipedia article. The category went to officer's vote but I'm going to try to cancel it and update the description to clarify this point unless anyone objects.

Edited by RakeInTheCache
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I'm inclined to say yes, as it seems to me to be clearly a part of the legacy.

 

I would be inclined to say no because:

 

"the Masonic order of Knights Templar derives its name from the medieval Catholic military order Knights Templar. However, it does not claim any direct lineal descent from the original Templar order."

 

Keith

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I would argue that they have "inherited" the name and trappings. The association goes back to the 18th century so it's not exactly a flash in the pan. If we included it it would provide more Waymarking opportunities in locations outside of Europe and the Near East, I think without watering it down too much.

 

Any other opinions? I could be swayed.

Edited by RakeInTheCache
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I would argue that they have "inherited" the name and trappings. The association goes back to the 18th century so it's not exactly a flash in the pan. If we included it it would provide more Waymarking opportunities in locations outside of Europe and the Near East, I think without watering it down too much.

 

So, lets try this again. As I understand it you are presently willing to accept groups or organizations which are part of the "legacy" of the original Knights Templar et al. An example of an organization to which I specifically refer is the "Grand Commandery Knights Templar". Will these be acceptable? Reading your most recent posts would cause me to believe (thankfully, I might add) this to be the case.

 

Keith

Edited by BK-Hunters
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I would argue that they have "inherited" the name and trappings. The association goes back to the 18th century so it's not exactly a flash in the pan. If we included it it would provide more Waymarking opportunities in locations outside of Europe and the Near East, I think without watering it down too much.

 

Any other opinions? I could be swayed.

 

I would not be inclined to accept these. The idea of the category is to waymark medieval era Chivalric orders that have survived and transformed into charitable orders today.

 

No link to the medieval organization, no acceptance I think. Borrowing the name and iconography 500 years later is not enough.

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I'm inclined to say yes, as it seems to me to be clearly a part of the legacy.

 

I would be inclined to say no because:

 

"the Masonic order of Knights Templar derives its name from the medieval Catholic military order Knights Templar. However, it does not claim any direct lineal descent from the original Templar order."

 

Keith

 

I agree with Keith -- no descent, not appropriate for the category.

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I'm inclined to say yes, as it seems to me to be clearly a part of the legacy.

 

I would be inclined to say no because:

 

"the Masonic order of Knights Templar derives its name from the medieval Catholic military order Knights Templar. However, it does not claim any direct lineal descent from the original Templar order."

 

Keith

 

I agree with Keith -- no descent, not appropriate for the category.

 

So no Freemason Knights Templars, even if it fits? :( I don't thin that they just stole the name. :ph34r:

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I'm inclined to say yes, as it seems to me to be clearly a part of the legacy.

 

I would be inclined to say no because:

 

"the Masonic order of Knights Templar derives its name from the medieval Catholic military order Knights Templar. However, it does not claim any direct lineal descent from the original Templar order."

 

Keith

 

I agree with Keith -- no descent, not appropriate for the category.

 

So no Freemason Knights Templars, even if it fits? :( I don't thin that they just stole the name. :ph34r:

 

If it's modern, it's not what I think we're looking for.

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If it's modern, it's not what I think we're looking for.

 

I understand that... but Freemasonry was around in the Middle ages.

 

I think their Knights Templars should be included. :)

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I agree with Keith -- no descent, not appropriate for the category.

 

I'm sorry for leading you astray, but Keith no longer agrees with Keith.

 

I posted that when I was still under the belief that RakeInTheCache was unwilling to accept latter day Knights of XXX organizations. I realized later, after reading further, that such was not the case and he now seems willing to add these to the category. This is a move with which I agree wholeheartedly as it opens the category to us North Americans, and others, who might otherwise be shut out. He's willing to view these as Legacy organizations which, though not direct descendants of the originals, have chosen to, in many ways, pattern themselves after the Templars, Knights Hospitallers, et al.

 

And now I find myself agreeing with Manville Possum. Whoda thunk?

 

I should have read further before shooting off my mouth, as it were.

 

Keith

Edited by BK-Hunters
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Admittedly not a particularly easy conclusion to come to, but I think as long as the currently existing organization "refers" back in some way to the Medieval incarnation, I'm willing to accept it in this category.

 

Maybe we can reconcile the two view points if we use the variable to distinguish between the original and Freemason versions of the Knights Templar and Knights of Saint John.

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In France, a legend says that Templars left a huge treasure that no one found and as they were not all killed they lived secretly and founded masonics orders using the same symbolics and rituals.

 

I think this link will explain better : Knights Templar and popular culture

 

So it's really difficult too exclude these new orders, because nobody could prove it they really have a link or not.

Edited by Alfouine
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In France, a legend says that Templars left a huge treasure that no one found and as they were not all killed they lived secretly and founded masonics orders using the same symbolics and rituals.

 

I think this link will explain better : Knights Templar and popular culture

 

So it's really difficult too exclude these new orders, because nobody could prove it they really have a link or not.

 

I think the Templars went underground. :ph34r:

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