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Make pages mobile friendly!


dubidubno
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It's 2017. Everyone's got a smartphone. Geocaching is not something you do behind a desk. Make the "Create geocache" and "Edit geocache" pages mobile friendly!

 

:rolleyes:

 

I don't have any type of mobile phone.

 

Geocaching does involve sitting at a computer for me...and a lot of other folks.

 

Your assumption that everyone has a smartphone is way off-base and ill-informed.

 

 

B.

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It's 2017. Everyone's got a smartphone. Geocaching is not something you do behind a desk. Make the "Create geocache" and "Edit geocache" pages mobile friendly!

 

:rolleyes:

 

I don't have any type of mobile phone.

 

Geocaching does involve sitting at a computer for me...and a lot of other folks.

 

Your assumption that everyone has a smartphone is way off-base and ill-informed.

 

B.

 

So, just because you don't have one, the majority that do should not be accommodated?

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It's 2017. Everyone's got a smartphone. Geocaching is not something you do behind a desk. Make the "Create geocache" and "Edit geocache" pages mobile friendly!

 

:rolleyes:

 

I don't have any type of mobile phone.

 

Geocaching does involve sitting at a computer for me...and a lot of other folks.

 

Your assumption that everyone has a smartphone is way off-base and ill-informed.

 

B.

 

So, just because you don't have one, the majority that do should not be accommodated?

 

Why do you assume the majority has a smartphone? And those that do, why do you assume they want to use it for caching?

 

One of the "minority?"

Mrs. Car54

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It's 2017. Everyone's got a smartphone. Geocaching is not something you do behind a desk. Make the "Create geocache" and "Edit geocache" pages mobile friendly!

 

:rolleyes:

 

I don't have any type of mobile phone.

 

Geocaching does involve sitting at a computer for me...and a lot of other folks.

 

Your assumption that everyone has a smartphone is way off-base and ill-informed.

 

B.

 

So, just because you don't have one, the majority that do should not be accommodated?

 

Why do you assume the majority has a smartphone? And those that do, why do you assume they want to use it for caching?

 

One of the "minority?"

Mrs. Car54

 

Are you against having mobile friendly webpages for creating and maintaining cache listings? If so, why?

 

Whether it's a majority that use their phone for caching or not isn't the point. It's still a great number. These should be accommodated.

 

According to this:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/02/22/smartphone-ownership-and-internet-usage-continues-to-climb-in-emerging-economies/

the global median for adult smartphone ownership is 43 %. In the US, where Groundspeak is based, it's 72 %. (data from spring 2015)

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Nooooooooo :o

 

Why not?

 

Because the creation and placement of caches is supposed to be something that is not taken lightly.

 

The responsibility of owning and maintaining caches requires some thought.

 

Being able to hide caches and submit them for review via phone does not indicate any sort of thought at all. One needs to sit down and so some research.

 

Being able to fling micros in bushes and submit them for review out in the field via phone is a bad idea. And one that the "majority" would do.

 

Are you able to read the Guidelines and the Help Center on your phone? Perhaps that's something you should do, if you are able.

 

B.

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It's 2017.

 

Correct ;)

 

Everyone's got a smartphone

 

Wrong

 

Geocaching is not something you do behind a desk

 

Part of it is. Even my PC with 2 monitors sometimes doesn't have enough screenspace to comfortably work on mysteries.

 

Make the "Create geocache" and "Edit geocache" pages mobile friendly!

 

OK, but without taking away functionality for desktops.

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It's 2017. Everyone's got a smartphone. Geocaching is not something you do behind a desk. Make the "Create geocache" and "Edit geocache" pages mobile friendly!

That's odd, most of the rants we see here come from folks saying that they have an issue with the site already too "mobile friendly", while sorta forgetting about the GPSr users who got them started.

Telling that the older members continue retaining their PMs anyway... :D

 

Though both have smartphones, neither of us find them useful for caching outside of 1/1.5 C&Ds, park n grabs, or whatever they're called today.

We haven't done that type in some time (boring for us), and prefer GPSrs and a hike thanks. :)

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Are you against having mobile friendly webpages for creating and maintaining cache listings? If so, why?

 

Yes.

 

Because it will absolutely contribute to the race to the bottom.

 

There are other smartphone based GPS games that facilitate throwing out targets with virtually zero effort or thought, perhaps those would suit you better?

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I do most of my geocaching with my smartphone. The last time I listed a cache, I even obtained the coordinates with my smartphone (and verified them with my GPSr).

 

But I'll continue to use a real computer with a real keyboard when I create/update cache listings.

 

Bottom line, as long as we don't lose any of the existing functionality for the sake of making this part of the site mobile friendly, I have no real objection. But there are other bugs/features that I think are much more important, and much more deserving of the Groundspeak developers' attention.

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Are you against having mobile friendly webpages for creating and maintaining cache listings? If so, why?

Adapting a web page for mobile use involves tradeoffs to accommodate the various limitations of access through a mobile device. In other words, making it more friendly to mobile devices users makes it less friendly to people using other devices. So one might as well ask whether you are against having desktop friendly webpages.

 

Normally, I wouldn't pay much attention since there's room for improvement everywhere and ways to handle both sets of users. But I think the reason you're getting a somewhat negative reaction is that GS has done a number of things to make geocaching.com more mobile friendly, and those efforts often negatively impact other access methods.

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Whether it's a majority that use their phone for caching or not isn't the point. It's still a great number. These should be accommodated.

 

The real question is not how many cachers use a phone for finding and logging caches. It's rather the question how many who hide nice caches which come

along with a good listing use their phone for that purpose.

 

While searching for caches is indeed something to be done outdoors, writing up appropriate cache pages (which is far more than entering coordinates)

is something which is not a typical outdoor activity. Please also take into account that many cache hiders also have complex caches (ECs, multi caches, involved mysteries etc) which

often come along with extensive listings which require hours to be set up.

 

Moreover, as others have said most moves towards making this site more mobile friendly made it less usable for those who use desktops.

Edited by cezanne
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Are you against having mobile friendly webpages for creating and maintaining cache listings? If so, why?

Adapting a web page for mobile use involves tradeoffs to accommodate the various limitations of access through a mobile device. In other words, making it more friendly to mobile devices users makes it less friendly to people using other devices. So one might as well ask whether you are against having desktop friendly webpages.

 

There are many frameworks developed in the last few years that allow one to build a web site that is mobile friendly and renders well on a desktop. If one is starting to develop a web site from scratch, using one of these frameworks works pretty well. However, the geocaching.com site was originally developed well before smart phones were common (the iPhone launched in 2007) and before any of these frameworks were available. Rather than accommodating mobile devices users with a mobile friendly version of the site (actually, there used to be very basic version of the site what rendered "ok" on a mobile device) which would likely require a significant redesign of the entire site, GS has chosen to focus efforts on their mobile apps. In fact, they probably put far more effort into their mobile apps than the do with the web site.

 

 

 

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Nooooooooo :o

 

Why not?

 

Well now I'm back home on a proper computer :lol:

 

Others have expressed my reasons very well already, but in my opinion having a mobile app for finding caches is great in because it means anyone can get started quickly, and it makes spontaneous caching easy.

 

Placing a cache is something that should be given due consideration and deliberation, and I believe people would be encouraged to place caches too quickly or spontaneously if it was easier to do on a phone.

 

Also there have been various threads complaining about the fact that the site is looking more like a mobile app (see the thread about the new map icons), and I feel that any move towards making features easier on the phone woild inevitably affect the look/feel/operation of the site to the detriment of PC/browser users; or maybe I'm being unduly pessimistic.

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I don't see Groundspeak investing any time in moving this site to a responsive design. If you have an active app, then the desktop website won't have much impetus to under go a long responsive update.

 

If anything is done in this area, it would probably be to add cache creation and maintenance to the app.

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Nooooooooo :o

 

Why not?

 

Because the creation and placement of caches is supposed to be something that is not taken lightly.

 

The responsibility of owning and maintaining caches requires some thought.

 

Being able to hide caches and submit them for review via phone does not indicate any sort of thought at all. One needs to sit down and so some research.

 

Being able to fling micros in bushes and submit them for review out in the field via phone is a bad idea. And one that the "majority" would do.

 

Are you able to read the Guidelines and the Help Center on your phone? Perhaps that's something you should do, if you are able.

 

B.

As a reviewer, I agree that this is a bad idea for the reasons given by Pup Patrol. Reviewers see many submissions that look like they were done on a mobile phone. They have very brief cache descriptions, often with typographical errors and shorthand like I would see in text messages. Key steps are overlooked, no attributes are selected, etc.

 

I then need to review that submission and explain that the cache cannot be published because, for example, it's 100 feet away from a Premium Members Only, Terrain 5 cache that doesn't appear on the user's smartphone app. (It would show up, of course, for a website user.) I also need to ask the CO for a description of what container was used and how the cache is hidden (to make sure it's not a fake hand grenade hidden in a hole the owner sawed into a fencepost). I take the time to write up a complete reviewer note which explains the listing guideline issues, links to the applicable guideline section and any relevant Help Center articles, and tells the Cache Owner what to do and how to contact me after they've made the changes. (Because if I skip any of that and just say "your cache is too close to another cache and you need to tell me more details about it," the owner will start a forum thread complaining about the inadequacies of the review they received and the confusion about what to do next.)

 

After composing a comprehensive four paragraph reviewer note, I post it to the cache listing. A significant portion of smartphone users never respond to that note. (What? I needed a real email address to set up my account instead of the throwaway Hotmail I used, but never check?) After a follow up reminder, I wind up archiving the majority of these smartphone user submissions a month later. It's a huge waste of my time. Eight years ago, it was extremely rare for me to never hear back from a cache owner after giving them feedback in a reviewer note.

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After composing a comprehensive four paragraph reviewer note, I post it to the cache listing. A significant portion of smartphone users never respond to that note. (What? I needed a real email address to set up my account instead of the throwaway Hotmail I used, but never check?) After a follow up reminder, I wind up archiving the majority of these smartphone user submissions a month later. It's a huge waste of my time. Eight years ago, it was extremely rare for me to never hear back from a cache owner after giving them feedback in a reviewer note.
Do you think this is a symptom of smartphone use per se, or do you think this is a symptom of the smartphone app not requiring a real email address? Or both?
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Are you against having mobile friendly webpages for creating and maintaining cache listings? If so, why?

Adapting a web page for mobile use involves tradeoffs to accommodate the various limitations of access through a mobile device. In other words, making it more friendly to mobile devices users makes it less friendly to people using other devices. So one might as well ask whether you are against having desktop friendly webpages.

 

Normally, I wouldn't pay much attention since there's room for improvement everywhere and ways to handle both sets of users. But I think the reason you're getting a somewhat negative reaction is that GS has done a number of things to make geocaching.com more mobile friendly, and those efforts often negatively impact other access methods.

Not only negative impacts on access, but negative impacts on geocaching as a whole. As Pup Patrol mentioned, cache placement shouldn't be taken lightly. The quality of cache placement is already going downhill and we certainly don't need a "one click" procedure put in place to speed things up.

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Not only negative impacts on access, but negative impacts on geocaching as a whole. As Pup Patrol mentioned, cache placement shouldn't be taken lightly. The quality of cache placement is already going downhill and we certainly don't need a "one click" procedure put in place to speed things up.

Some people no longer use anything except their mobile device.

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Save this post and look back on it in 5 years. A "desktop" will be nothing more then a tablet with bluetooth keyboard. My 20+ yr old children will never own a landline telephone. They will never own a desktop computer and their notebooks will become tablets.

 

When designing new websites, the target is a mobile phone and tablet UI with the tablet UI supporting traditional "desktop" users.

 

Most tablets will support a shrunk down "desktop" web page but it shortly will become viewed as outdated.

 

Myself - I worked on IBM 3270 "dumb terminals" in the early 80s - evolving is inevitable.

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Save this post and look back on it in 5 years. A "desktop" will be nothing more then a tablet with bluetooth keyboard.

 

Certainly not. One very important reason is that many people prefer and many are dependent on larger screens. While being in the field zooming a lot is an option, but there is no reason to do so at home where large screens are easily available. People will also keep to use TV screens and most will not replace TV sets by mobile phones.

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I rarely look at the website or this forum on a computer - I cannot remember the last time that I used a computer to create or update a cache page, download files to my gpsr, or view cache pages. But I am not a fan of most "mobile friendly" web pages - the first thing I do when I come upon them is to see if I can use the desktop version. The pages are friendly enough for the devices I use.

 

As pointed out above, technology has changed since the first cache was placed and will continue to change. If Michio Kaku is correct, my children might be getting ther data through nano technolgy - from contact lenses to the walls in their home. But in the meantime I would not want to lose the functionality that the desktop versions offer and am not sure what a mobile friendly site might look like using today's technology. While I do not think a mobile friendly page has to have a "one click procedure" for placing caches, a site with less features or a stripped down display would not be my first priority for development.

Edited by geodarts
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Save this post and look back on it in 5 years. A "desktop" will be nothing more then a tablet with bluetooth keyboard.

 

Certainly not. One very important reason is that many people prefer and many are dependent on larger screens. While being in the field zooming a lot is an option, but there is no reason to do so at home where large screens are easily available. People will also keep to use TV screens and most will not replace TV sets by mobile phones.

 

I didn't say you can't have a larger screen at home or you won't have your old "desktop". But as the years pass, and 5 years will go quickly, you won't be buying new desktops. If you don't build for what will be there, you are building something that will be obsolete or at best a poor user experience. My 80 year old dad now spends more time on his iPhone and iPad then his big screen desktop and I got more emails/texts from him then I do emails from his desktop.

 

5 years ago would you ave imagine people would be using Waze on their smartphone vs a dedicated Garmin car GPS? 5 years ago did everyone imagine never needing a GPS to find 100s/1000s of caches on your smartphone?

 

I used to call a travel agent on the phone to book a flight, a hotel and rental car. Then I used to do it on a desktop computer. Now it's almost always done on my phone or tablet. User behavior and user expectation is moving in that same direction.

 

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I didn't say you can't have a larger screen at home or you won't have your old "desktop".

 

I did not write something about desktops. I replied to your statement about the tablet with only an external keyboard and no mention of the monitor/screen/whatever. Whether you project to a wall, a screen of whatever type or what else is not the real issue.

Size however matters a lot in the design and I strongly believe that many people will continue to use larger "projecting areas" at home than offered by tablets and smartphones. The involved technologies will of course change (as nowadays e.g. only few people have one of the old computer monitors at home and many use more modern but also larger monitors).

 

If all your caches are like the only one I can look at, then I understand why you would not have an issue with preparing your cache descriptions on a device with a small screen. I have a completely different type of cache in mind. I also cannot imagine that someone would process hundreds of photos by programs like Gimp or PhotoShop on a small screen if they have another option. Typically people even use larger monitors than are used for other purposes for such graphical tasks.

Edited by cezanne
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But as the years pass, and 5 years will go quickly, you won't be buying new desktops.
Many of us are already there. It has been a long time since I worked somewhere that didn't supply me with a laptop, with a docking station (with a keyboard and full-size displays) at my desk.
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Many of us are already there. It has been a long time since I worked somewhere that didn't supply me with a laptop, with a docking station (with a keyboard and full-size displays) at my desk.

 

Even a traditional notebook will become less and less the norm. Where I work there are many people using iPads and Surface devices as their main computer and not a traditional Windows/Mac notebook/desktop. That's the "tablet" that everyone will soon consider their "main computer".

 

And my kids children will laugh that we had to type or use a mouse.... how old fashioned is that!

 

Siri/Alexa - Create a new traditional cache!

Edited by Team DEMP
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Even a traditional notebook will become less and less the norm. Where I work there are many people using iPads and Surface devices as their main computer and not a traditional Windows/Mac notebook/desktop. That's the "tablet" that everyone will soon consider their "main computer".

"Main computer" maybe - processing power is using less space every year. But not "main user interface" - as a software developer, I regard two large screens as the absolute minimum acceptable working environment :) .

 

Siri/Alexa - Create a new traditional cache!
What a nightmare :blink: ! OTOH, lots of cache listings already look as if they had been created with such a "tool" :( .
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But I am not a fan of most "mobile friendly" web pages - the first thing I do when I come upon them is to see if I can use the desktop version.

Good point. I don't use a mobile device, but you've made me realize my fear here is that people in general and Groundspeak in particular have a tendency to use "mobile friendly" as an excuse to implement dumbing down.

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Looks like the "pro-mobile" folks don't use computers for "serious" work. Mobile is OK for mail/web but try video editing, photoshop, programming on anything that doesn't have at least 2 screens.

Even for GC I need 2 screens. One has splitscreen GSAK so I see the list of caches, cachelisting, map and logs, the other has my browser and some tools open to work on mysteries or planning a cacheday. Of course other stuff is in view too (mail, newsfeeds...) Try that on a phone/tablet.

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Looks like some folks take the leap from "make pages mobile friendly" to mean "remove desktop support". dry.gif

 

Go back 5 years and the vast majority of consumers needed a computer to do email, word processing, spreadsheets, games and web browsing. Today email, word processing & spreadsheets can be web based. I haven't suggested to someone they buy/install Office or one of the open source alternatives in years. Though both my daughters are proficient in Photoshop and have it installed on their Mac books, 90% of the time they edit pictures on their iPhone or tablet vs fire up Photoshop CC. We're not building geocaching.com in this discussion with a discussion that started requesting a mobile friendly web form & workflow.

 

If you look at the GSAK forums, you'll see I'm user id #3. I still use GSAK and have it installed on a Windows machine purchased in 2010 and since upgraded with more memory and SSD. I also use Project-GC which provides a significant amount of similar functionality all in my web browser while at home, commuting, work, vacation, etc on my tablet (or desktop). .Project-GC is web based and I don't need to pre-define and download PQs for areas that I don't already have a catalog of caches downloaded in order to search, filter, find along a route, etc.

Edited by Team DEMP
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Looks like some folks take the leap from "make pages mobile friendly" to mean "remove desktop support".

 

Not at all. My reaction is to different things mentioned in this thread. "Making gc mobile friendly has an effect on how the site displays on desktops." "Even a notebook will become less of the norm" "a desktop will be a tablet with keyboard"

The combination of these and other comments give the impression that desktops will be obsolete in the near future. I disagree that this will happen, it might for mail/www stuff but there are a lot of applications needing a lot of screenspace. On holiday I used to bring a 17 inch laptop, now I use a 10 inch tablet and I can't count the times the screen was to small for doing what I wanted to do.

 

Mobile friendly is a good thing but not if it's taking away usability from larger screens.

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