MORE Stagnant Categories... Part XXVII

January 6, 2017

It's 2017 and I find myself waiting on submissions from November/early December 2016 for approval. The following categories are stagnant:

Sailing and Yacht Clubs I'm awaiting approval for my first-ever submission into the category on 12/11/2016. The leader last logged in 11/8/16.

Video Arcades The last officer to log in was July 3rd of 2016! My submission has been waiting for approval since 12/11/16.

Vintage Gasoline Pumps Alas, the last officer to log in was 12/28 but my friendly e-mail to the officer has gone unreplied. I've been waiting on an approval in the category since 11/27/16. Sigh...

I know I'm beating a dead horse on this topic but I guess I'm pointing out these three particular stagnant categories because I would GLADLY become an officer of each and help to keep them active. And that's the frustrating part of this Waymarking hobby for me: making stagnant categories active again is easier said than done. I've had some luck on occasion catching an administrator like Waywizard at a good time via e-mails and having him promote me as officer in a few stagnant categories. But my REAL frustration with stagnant categories is this: When I DO get promoted as an officer in a stagnant category, it's almost impossible to get a fellow waymarker promoted to help out. Why? Because of the vote limitations that require 60% minimum approval to promote an officer. That's hard to do when all other officers in a stagnant category haven't been active in months or YEARS.

AND.. This is STILL a major beef with me: Why is it impossible to get a non-active leader of a category demoted and replaced with an active waymarker??? (A vote to demote a leader requires 100% approval and inactive officers/leaders make that impossible). It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to continue keeping a person as a leader of a category when he/she haven't been active in months or YEARS. But from Waywizard's reply to an earlier post last year regarding stagnant categories, as long as one officer is promoted and active, that should suffice. That's fine and dandy when that active officer is approving everyone else's waymarks, but what about someone approving his/her own submissions?? Again, that logic just doesn't make any sense to me.

Here's another example of why having an active leader of a category is important: Over time, it may be discovered that a category needs to make an update of the guidelines/rules/requirements etc. Heck, I even get messaged from others about grammar errors/misspellings in the category variables but can't do a DARN THING about it because I'm just an officer with no category-editing capabilities. Only the leader of a category can change the officer rules to allow category edits. That's pretty hard to do when the leader hasn't logged in in 10 years! (true case for me).

Waymarking is a ton of fun for me as a hobby but my above-mentioned frustrations make it not so fun. I know Waymarking is a small community compared to Geocaching and a non-money maker (for the most part) for Groundspeak. And that is most likely why the administrators are reluctant to make fixes because they're wrapped up in other, more productive projects. But... it would sure be great if Groundspeak could elect one or two people who had the power to make things happen in all-things-Waymarking.

BruceS and lumbricus seem to have certain admin privileges but not enough to help out where it REALLY counts most: in the categories that we all submit into. I am making an appeal to Groundspeak to trust a few of us to make the community better! :anitongue:

5.7k · January 6, 2017

But... it would sure be great if Groundspeak could elect one or two people who had the power to make things happen in all-things-Waymarking.

I am making an appeal to Groundspeak to trust a few of us to make the community better!

Better for yourself and a few others, but you can't speak for most of us. That is not a community, and is the conspiracy theory that I have always spoke of.

It is the intent of only a select few to control Waymarking by using PM funds from Geocachers.

1.5k · January 6, 2017

You have hit on some important issues. For me, two issues are particularly important. As an officer with limited support, who approves the officer's waymark posts? How does that officer get the capabilities to make simple but necessary updates to the category description?

January 6, 2017

But... it would sure be great if Groundspeak could elect one or two people who had the power to make things happen in all-things-Waymarking.

I am making an appeal to Groundspeak to trust a few of us to make the community better!

Better for yourself and a few others, but you can't speak for most of us. That is not a community, and is the conspiracy theory that I have always spoke of.

It is the intent of only a select few to control Waymarking by using PM funds from Geocachers.

Manville Possum, please stop replying to this post. It's obvious to most in the community that you are a disgruntled former Waymarker, but for the rest of us, we still enjoy the hobby. If you don't like the community anymore than please stay away from it and go back to geocaching, which you still enjoy. Your vitriolic replies in previous posts in the forums, including this one, are unwelcomed and immature. Please grow up.

5.7k · January 6, 2017

But... it would sure be great if Groundspeak could elect one or two people who had the power to make things happen in all-things-Waymarking.

I am making an appeal to Groundspeak to trust a few of us to make the community better!

Better for yourself and a few others, but you can't speak for most of us. That is not a community, and is the conspiracy theory that I have always spoke of.

It is the intent of only a select few to control Waymarking by using PM funds from Geocachers.

Manville Possum, please stop replying to this post. It's obvious to most in the community that you are a disgruntled former Waymarker, but for the rest of us, we still enjoy the hobby. If you don't like the community anymore than please stay away from it and go back to geocaching, which you still enjoy. Your vitriolic replies in previous posts in the forums, including this one, are unwelcomed and immature. Please grow up.

I'm a disgruntled Waymarker? That is a good idea for a new group, as I am also a paying member of Groundspeak, and this is their forums, so please stop with the personal attack so that we may discuss the topic of this thread. :anitongue:

5.7k · January 6, 2017

I know that not agreeing with your idea is upsetting to you, but I still have opinions on a game that I played for 8 years, so asking me not to post is not within reason.

I don't like the idea of appointing new leadership to stagnated categories by a site admin. Being promoted by a site admin to an officer of a stagnated category solved the problem, and let's not get into this "I don't like to approve my own WM's". That is not a reason,... if you know enough about the category to be "planted" in as an officer by a site admin, then you can handle approving you own WM.

Edit to add: BTW, I am still the leader of a category that I created and manage here, and it is still somewhat active. Disgruntled or not, I'm still a Waymarker. <_<

Edited January 6, 2017 by Manville Possum

1.6k · January 6, 2017

BruceS and lumbricus seem to have certain admin privileges but not enough to help out where it REALLY counts most: in the categories that we all submit into. I am making an appeal to Groundspeak to trust a few of us to make the community better!

To clarify a few things:

Actually I only have "privileges" in the forums and not the Waymarking site. Lumbricus does not have "privileges" in either place. Waywizard has limited "privileges" on Waymarking site, ie. final approval of category, moving categories within directory, changing icons, changing category titles, approving waymarks in stagnant categories and a few other miscellaneous thing. Any group changes are reserved to Groundspeak.

2.2k · January 6, 2017

I don't like the idea of appointing new leadership to stagnated categories by a site admin. Being promoted by a site admin to an officer of a stagnated category solved the problem, and let's not get into this "I don't like to approve my own WM's". That is not a reason,... if you know enough about the category to be "planted" in as an officer by a site admin, then you can handle approving you own WM.

Given that you are not in favour of "appointing new leadership to stagnated categories by a site admin" do you have an alternate suggestion or two? Workable suggestions, that is. What Doug proposes seems quite reasonable to me, as well as being the only viable workaround I can foresee.

As for approving one's own waymarks, I see that as a moral and/or ethical issue, not one of knowledge or lack thereof.

5.7k · January 6, 2017

Given that you are not in favour of "appointing new leadership to stagnated categories by a site admin" do you have an alternate suggestion or two? Workable suggestions, that is. What Doug proposes seems quite reasonable to me, as well as being the only viable workaround I can foresee.

As for approving one's own waymarks, I see that as a moral and/or ethical issue, not one of knowledge or lack thereof.

Allow categories to retire, not just be taken over, is an option that comes to mind. <_<

As for approving ones own WM's being an ethical and or moral issue, Waymarking already crossed that line with visits on their own WM's being acceptable practice. I don't have a problem with publishing my own WM, and no one else to do it supports that. It should not be a problem, and could be done. Being stubborn makes no sense.

January 7, 2017

Allow categories to retire, not just be taken over, is an option that comes to mind.

I think you mentioned something about a community a few posts back. Do you think that retiring categories is really in the best interest of the community? These are categories that members love to post to. I'm really sorry but this notion of retiring categories because the creator is no longer interested and doesn't want to give up management to the community seems really self interested to me.

What about the creation of an "Orphanage"? Categories which have waymarks waiting for review for a certain amount of time automatically get sent to the orphanage. Then qualifying wamarking members could adopt them. Qualifications might include number of categories already managed, number of officer positions held, number of waymarks created, etc.

Edited January 7, 2017 by RakeInTheCache

January 7, 2017

I know I'm beating a dead horse on this topic

In my opinion, until something is done to address this pernicious problem there is no such thing as beating a dead horse.

January 7, 2017

Another thing to add, I think it needs to be clarified in the rules that category managers and officers have a responsibility to the hobby, to be present, to look after Waymarking submissions. When this responsiblity is not upheld, their position as category manager or officer can be forfeit. Waymarking is not the same as Geocaching. A category manager is not a cache creator or reviewer. There is no comparison to be made.

As long as category managers and officers feel no sense of responsiblity to the hobby, categories will tend to whither away.

5.7k · January 7, 2017

Another thing to add, I think it needs to be clarified in the rules that category managers and officers have a responsibility to the hobby, to be present, to look after Waymarking submissions. When this responsiblity is not upheld, their position as category manager or officer can be forfeit. Waymarking is not the same as Geocaching. A category manager is not a cache creator or reviewer. There is no comparison to be made.

As long as category managers and officers feel no sense of responsiblity to the hobby, categories will tend to whither away.

Waymarking was never meant to replace geocaching, this is just a side game. The side I'm not liking about Waymarking is the suggested forced take over of dormant categories under the pretense of WM's not being published.

As you have already pointed out, Waywizard has been publishing WM's in slow categories. We already have a working system, asking for him to help in hijacking a category is a little much don't you think?

2.2k · January 7, 2017

It is not Waywizard sole responsibility to approved submissions that are not reviewed in a timely manner.

It is the responsibility of leaders and officers of each category to be responsible for submissions. If they become inactive, then so be it, the category should remain active even if replacing the leader/officers in necessary to keep the category viable.

5.7k · January 7, 2017

It is not Waywizard sole responsibility to approved submissions that are not reviewed in a timely manner.

It is the responsibility of leaders and officers of each category to be responsible for submissions. If they become inactive, then so be it, the category should remain active even if replacing the leader/officers in necessary to keep the category viable.

So you agree that hijacking categories that are inactive and appointing new leadership is the course that Waymarking needs to take?

As we say in geocaching, you don't have to find them all, it's just a game. :laughing:

January 7, 2017

BK-Hunters and RakeInTheCache have said it perfectly. Groundspeak puts their trust in leaders and officers to remain active in their respective categories. When they fail to do so for whatever reasons, the only sensible choice is to replace those inactive individuals with active ones. Getting that to happen is the challenge since we're at the whim of Groundspeak.

5.7k · January 7, 2017

BK-Hunters and RakeInTheCache have said it perfectly. Groundspeak puts their trust in leaders and officers to remain active in their respective categories. When they fail to do so for whatever reasons, the only sensible choice is to replace those inactive individuals with active ones. Getting that to happen is the challenge since we're at the whim of Groundspeak.

Yes, but you do know that we all do not agree with your idea. I'm sure that being the leader of a group is just part of the stats for you, it's just a game.

I just feel the we should have more respect for past players than to beg to be appointed leader by a site admin. That is no how Waymarking worked.

And don't get mad at me for saying it, but Groundspeak has already gave up on Waymarking. Just try and make the best with what is still working.

If there are no broken categories, every thing is working.

2.2k · January 8, 2017

I just feel the we should have more respect for past players than to beg to be appointed leader by a site admin.

Respect should be a two way street. If one chooses not to, or for reasons beyond their control cannot, continue in an active role they should have sufficient respect for those who remain active to ensure that the category(ies) they had managed will continue. In my short time as a waymarker I have witnessed such situations wherein category managers who were forced to abandon their duties reached out to their peers for help, whether it be temporary or permanent, ensuring the continuation of the category(ies) in question. It's not difficult to accomplish and leaves the community with an elevated opinion of the former manager. Moreover, it allows the manager to depart with a clear conscience.

Keith

1.4k · January 8, 2017

I know I'm beating a dead horse on this topic but I guess I'm pointing out these three particular stagnant categories because I would GLADLY become an officer of each and help to keep them active. And that's the frustrating part of this Waymarking hobby for me: making stagnant categories active again is easier said than done. I've had some luck on occasion catching an administrator like Waywizard at a good time via e-mails and having him promote me as officer in a few stagnant categories. But my REAL frustration with stagnant categories is this: When I DO get promoted as an officer in a stagnant category, it's almost impossible to get a fellow waymarker promoted to help out. Why? Because of the vote limitations that require 60% minimum approval to promote an officer. That's hard to do when all other officers in a stagnant category haven't been active in months or YEARS.

AND.. This is STILL a major beef with me: Why is it impossible to get a non-active leader of a category demoted and replaced with an active waymarker??? (A vote to demote a leader requires 100% approval and inactive officers/leaders make that impossible). It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to continue keeping a person as a leader of a category when he/she haven't been active in months or YEARS. But from Waywizard's reply to an earlier post last year regarding stagnant categories, as long as one officer is promoted and active, that should suffice. That's fine and dandy when that active officer is approving everyone else's waymarks, but what about someone approving his/her own submissions?? Again, that logic just doesn't make any sense to me.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember correctly the promoting or demoting officer votes require 60% of the votes, not of all officers. So if everyone else is inactive, you can add new officers because your vote will be the only one counting. Demoting a leader indeed needs 100% of all existing officers, so you have to demote all inactive officers first before this can be done. The order of the steps does matter.

1.4k · January 8, 2017

...Correct me if I am wrong, but if I remember correctly the promoting or demoting officer votes require 60% of the votes, not of all officers. So if everyone else is inactive, you can add new officers because your vote will be the only one counting. Demoting a leader indeed needs 100% of all existing officers, so you have to demote all inactive officers first before this can be done. The order of the steps does matter.

That's how it is!

2.2k · January 8, 2017

Demote this member (66% officer vote required)

Promote this member (no vote required) if the leader promotes

Promote this member (66% officer vote required) if another officer calls the vote to promote

5.7k · January 8, 2017

I just feel the we should have more respect for past players than to beg to be appointed leader by a site admin.

Respect should be a two way street. If one chooses not to, or for reasons beyond their control cannot, continue in an active role they should have sufficient respect for those who remain active to ensure that the category(ies) they had managed will continue. In my short time as a waymarker I have witnessed such situations wherein category managers who were forced to abandon their duties reached out to their peers for help, whether it be temporary or permanent, ensuring the continuation of the category(ies) in question. It's not difficult to accomplish and leaves the community with an elevated opinion of the former manager. Moreover, it allows the manager to depart with a clear conscience.

Keith

You know, I came to accept that the Waymarking site has failed, it's only a few members hanging on that want to keep it going, more people are leaving than joining, categories are stagnating, the site is slowly dying off. I accepted that fact and moved on.

I'm a Waymarker, I pay my dues as a PM, I may not be as active, and I just don't agree with the ideas of overthrowing a category with planted leadership, and I'm sure that was thought of before Waymarking even became a game. It was a fun idea, we can form groups, create and manage a category. That was a fun idea, but people move on for whatever reasons.

This all reminds me of Garmin's geocaching site, all the complaints that things did not work, or things should be done this way or that, nothing but complaints in the forums. First they removed the forums, then one day the site disappeared for good.

I think it will be soon the Groundspeak weighs in on their Waymarking site and we can all leave with a clear conscience, we all know it's just a matter of time. Putting in new planted leadership to dormant categories would not help when I believe the are allowing the site to slowly die off on it's own.

Things don't look good for Waymarking or Wherigo in 2017, and I don't think it make me a bad person for noticing because both are games that I have enjoyed.

1.2k · January 8, 2017

I am hopeful for Waymarking, and continue to enjoy it very much

5.7k · January 8, 2017

I am hopeful for Waymarking, and continue to enjoy it very much

There is nothing wrong with that. I was explained Waymarking as being on life support when I started more than eight years ago.

Now, the people left playing appear to be in a state of panic, dormant categories, gotta take em' over to keep Waymarking working.

Sorry, but I just don't think this is in the plans for Waymarking. I know that many feel they are being ignored by Groundspeak when it comes to Waymarking, same goes with Wherigo.

We got to remember geocaching is a business, and I'm afraid of where complaining about Waymarking is going to take it sooner than later.

January 8, 2017

So you agree that hijacking categories that are inactive and appointing new leadership is the course that Waymarking needs to take?

As we say in geocaching, you don't have to find them all, it's just a game.

This is not really hijacking. From what I understand, in the most dire of cases, Groundspeak reaches out to the manager before making a decision to change the leadership. It's only if the manager continues in not reacting that a change is made. The manager has control over whether they take corrective action or not, and subsequently whether they remain a manager.

I think one of the formal responsabilities of a category manager should be to remain available to the community (logging in regularly, checking e-mail, etc.), and when they can't, to delegate their duties to a qualified and engaged officer for the period in which they will be unavailable.

January 8, 2017

That's how it is!

True, but in many cases, dead beat managers who wake up when they see a vote will thwart this by voting no to the promotion.

January 8, 2017

We got to remember geocaching is a business, and I'm afraid of where complaining about Waymarking is going to take it sooner than later.

Look on the bright side, maybe they'll sell it to an organization with an interest in developing it. (I think the data could be seen as a valuable asset). Maybe there are commercial opportunities that Groundspeak has never considered. It could be a whole new chapter.

9.1k · January 8, 2017

I am happy that the process for replacing category leadership is viewed as cumbersome. I think it *should* be difficult (or impossible) for hijackers to take over a category that has active officers.

If category rules and requirements were frozen in place, so that the hijackers could not change them, I would not feel as strongly about the issue. Unless and until that "freeze feature" is implemented, I'll instead advocate for the "category retirement" feature. Let me lock the categories I founded, and then make a graceful exit.

5.7k · January 8, 2017

We got to remember geocaching is a business, and I'm afraid of where complaining about Waymarking is going to take it sooner than later.

Look on the bright side, maybe they'll sell it to an organization with an interest in developing it. (I think the data could be seen as a valuable asset). Maybe there are commercial opportunities that Groundspeak has never considered. It could be a whole new chapter.

I like to think that way, a new Waymarking that gets updates and fixes. I think that the Wherigo Foundation that Ranger Fox created is nice, and may replace WIG as we know it.

One thing for sure, they are changing the geocaching game and attempting to take it back to quality hides, according to the forums there.

And I'm seeing local reviewers cleaning up some listings with strings of DNF's. We have the same problems with geocache owners not maintaining their listings, and they leave the game and their clutter.

2.2k · January 8, 2017

...it's only a few members hanging on that want to keep it going, more people are leaving than joining, categories are stagnating, the site is slowly dying off..

Could you please supply the rest of us with those statistics?

Keith

Edited January 8, 2017 by BK-Hunters

2.2k · January 8, 2017

... and I'm afraid of where complaining about Waymarking is going to take it sooner than later.

Odd statement from someone who spends as much time complaining as you do.

(The bold above is mine, not that of Manville Possum.)

Keith

Edited January 8, 2017 by BK-Hunters

5.7k · January 8, 2017

... and I'm afraid of where complaining about Waymarking is going to take it sooner than later.

Odd statement from someone who spends as much time complaining as you do.

(The bold above is mine, not that of Manville Possum.)

Keith

I mostly complain about the hijackers here that act like the site is unusable unless they are part of the leadership.

Please Mr. Waywiz, crown me king, I want to be leader. :anicute: You guys are funny. Waymarking don't work that way. :laughing:

Ya' know Keith, I still enjoy following Waymarking, even if I don't take part by posting pictures anymore. And it was no so much as the site, but it's the people that made Waymarking a bad experience for me.

January 8, 2017

... and I'm afraid of where complaining about Waymarking is going to take it sooner than later.

Odd statement from someone who spends as much time complaining as you do.

(The bold above is mine, not that of Manville Possum.)

Keith

I mostly complain about the hijackers here that act like the site is unusable unless they are part of the leadership.

Please Mr. Waywiz, crown me king, I want to be leader. You guys are funny. Waymarking don't work that way.

Ya' know Keith, I still enjoy following Waymarking, even if I don't take part by posting pictures anymore. And it was no so much as the site, but it's the people that made Waymarking a bad experience for me.

Thus far, Manville Possum is doing a great job at making Waymarking a negative experience for all involved because of his immature comments and behavior ("Hey, everyone, I made a Disgruntled Waymarker group!"), paranoiac replies to new posts ("Waymarking is a conspiracy by Groundspeak for a select few!") and general lack of respect for anyone who is trying to keep the Waymarking community active and viable (Please Mr. Waywiz, crown me king, I want to be leader").

If I notice dormant/stagnant categories that I am submitting into haven't had active officers in weeks or months, at least I try to take the steps to make them active again. If someone else besides me were to take those steps, great, at least the mission here is to keep the Waymarking community active, whether it be me or someone else. This is something lumbricus has done in the past and for which people like BK-Hunters and myself are doing now. We see a problem and we are only trying to fix the situation at hand.

Then we have to put up with a naysayer like Manville Possum who enjoys wallowing in his own stench of paranoiac nonsense and spreading his vitriol to the rest of the Waymarking community. He also can't seem to leave as leader of a category he created because he doesn't trust anyone to take it over and would rather let the category go dormant and reject any new submissions into that category. Immaturity at its finest.

2.2k · January 8, 2017

Then we have to put up with a naysayer like Manville Possum who enjoys wallowing in his own stench of paranoiac nonsense and spreading his vitriol to the rest of the Waymarking community. He also can't seem to leave as leader of a category he created because he doesn't trust anyone to take it over and would rather let the category go dormant and reject any new submissions into that category. Immaturity at its finest.

HEAR, HEAR!!!

5.7k · January 8, 2017

Then we have to put up with a naysayer like Manville Possum who enjoys wallowing in his own stench of paranoiac nonsense and spreading his vitriol to the rest of the Waymarking community. He also can't seem to leave as leader of a category he created because he doesn't trust anyone to take it over and would rather let the category go dormant and reject any new submissions into that category. Immaturity at its finest.

Anyone that does not agree with your idea is a naysayer, I'm not keeping Waymarking from doing anything. I still love to look at the new pictures. I pay my membership to get the added perks, and one of them is that I can create a group. Today, I'm disgruntled with cyber bullies. :mad:

No, I'm not leaving my category that I created to the community here, and I don't want to take a break and come back to find that beaverdude69 is now the leader.

2.2k · January 8, 2017

...Today, I'm disgruntled with cyber bullies. ...

Now I'm a "cyber bully"? Whoda Thunk?

BTW, I still don't see those statistics I gently requested.

Keith

Edited January 8, 2017 by BK-Hunters

5.7k · January 8, 2017

...Today, I'm disgruntled with cyber bullies. ...

Now I'm a "cyber bully"? Whoda Thunk?

Keith

You would have to be part of the group to view that content being discussed, and we were talking about the new group, not you.

2.2k · January 9, 2017

... and we were talking about the new group, not you.

The new group are "cyber bullies", then?

Keith

5.7k · January 9, 2017

... and we were talking about the new group, not you.

The new group are "cyber bullies", then?

Keith

No, not at all. It's a members only club where we discuss the betterment of Waymarking. That's all it is, just a new Waymarking group.

You are just butting in on a conversation I was having with another member and taking things out of context on purpose. Come on dude.

2.2k · January 9, 2017

You are just butting in on a conversation I was having with another member and taking things out of context on purpose. Come on dude.

It certainly wasn't on purpose. Given that I wasn't privy to the "other" conversation you were involved in, I quite naturally assumed the comment in question to be a part of the surrounding context as it was not physically set apart from the context.

Keith

5.7k · January 9, 2017

[quote name='BK-Hunters' timestamp='1483919145' post='5629582'

BTW, I still don't see those statistics I gently requested.

Keith

That would be a good topic for tomorrows group discussion. Numbers, and why I don't give a $#!% about them. :laughing:

Look, I'm just trying to still enjoy Waymarking. If it's a new group, don't judge me for trying to make new friends here.

1.6k · January 9, 2017

As again this thread spiraled out again to personal attacks and is far off topic I am closing this topic.

MORE Stagnant Categories... Part XXVII

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