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Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hide

Is Geocaching Dead?

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8 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

Or were you actively searching for caches that had issues and pushing for them to be removed?

Why does this matter?

I personally am grateful for people who will do this when no one locally will. It helps travelling cachers. Gives them a better chance of finding caches that are actually there and in good shape.

 

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3 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Since others seem to have more positive results, to me that implies either
A] You live in a very depressing/unappealing area for geocaching and community
B] Your methods aren't prompting much positivity

A rather leading statement default_dry.png

I'm going to stick with my earlier points that I've endured numerous negative responses and enjoyed zero positive responses and add option C] People care more about the smiley than the state of the cache they find (or even don't find, in the case of frequent throwdowns), some of them to the point of lambasting anyone who gets in the way of that.

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I may be new to the game but I applaud those willing to suggest NA’s. We need this to keep the game healthy.

Some people want to hide caches as they get into the game and the saturation rule can be disappointing at times. I’ve run into this several times already myself. And it’s disheartening to see that the cache occupying the space is not in good shape at all.

We also don’t want new players coming across dilapidated or ruined or missing hides.

NM and NA logs are an official part of the game. As a CO, take care of your business or get out of the way and someone else can have a shot at that spot.

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39 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

What difference does it make?

All the difference in the world if I'm to understand your situation.    Right or wrong both can be perceived very differently.  

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1 hour ago, justintim1999 said:
2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

What difference does it make?

All the difference in the world if I'm to understand your situation.    Right or wrong both can be perceived very differently.  

I disagree.

If the cache needed maintenance / archving it makes no difference how I came upon it.

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2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:
2 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Since others seem to have more positive results, to me that implies either
A] You live in a very depressing/unappealing area for geocaching and community
B] Your methods aren't prompting much positivity

I'm going to stick with my earlier points that I've endured numerous negative responses and enjoyed zero positive responses and add option C] People care more about the smiley than the state of the cache they find (or even don't find, in the case of frequent throwdowns), some of them to the point of lambasting anyone who gets in the way of that.

I would classify that as [A]. I wasn't leading. if I were you, I'd have chalked it up to A. Assuming you weren't doing anything prompting negativity (I never assumed you were since I hadn't looked up how you dealt with the situations), then everything is on your community. Which, as you describe, is [C]. Or, as I put it, [A].  Trust me, I tried to think of a third option. But with two parties at play, it really is either them or you. And if it's not you, it's them.  In my area, the atmosphere is very different.

Edited by thebruce0

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6 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I would classify that as [A]. I wasn't leading. if I were you, I'd have chalked it up to A. Assuming you weren't doing anything prompting negativity (I never assumed you were since I hadn't looked up how you dealt with the situations), then everything is on your community. Which, as you describe, is [C]. Or, as I put it, [A].  Trust me, I tried to think of a third option. But with two parties at play, it really is either them or you. And if it's not you, it's them.  In my area, the atmosphere is very different.

In your area, what's it like at events? Do people talk about the importance of maintenance? Do they encourage each other to log NMs and follow-up NAs? What do they think of people who hide for numbers and never maintain but are avid hiders? Or is there a negative vibe about "cache cop" types?

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3 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

Or is there a negative vibe about "cache cop" types?

This - yet some who perpetuate this viewpoint consider themselves above their own rules.

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4 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

In your area, what's it like at events? Do people talk about the importance of maintenance? Do they encourage each other to log NMs and follow-up NAs? What do they think of people who hide for numbers and never maintain but are avid hiders? Or is there a negative vibe about "cache cop" types?

Events always seem very, highly social. Newcomers are more often quieter and less interactive, but everyone's very friendly. Sure, there could be some divisions and cliques, but rarely do I see any visible negativity or antagonism. If anything, it happens quietly or behind people's backs :P There's not a lot of talk about the rights ways to do things, because it doesn't seem like there's a problem with people doing things the wrong way... occasionally there's some discussion about new features and the way people like to do things themselves, but I rarely ever get the sense that there's some widespread disagreement. In the greater area I know there are a couple of people who have struck smoe bad chords with the community, but that's general geocacher etiquette, not related to questionable GS features/practices...  I don't get the sense anyone feels like there's a "cache cop" in my area either.

Keep in mind, this is of course all my own observations. Things could be going on in smaller groups that I'm not privy to. Heck maybe I'm heckled by everyone and I don't know it =P But this is what I see in my general local community.  Lots of general camaraderie, especially by those who don't bind themselves to any major group, but some distinct groups of friends and common cachers, though no prominent/public in-fighting or hobby-detracting all-out wars. Quite nNewbie frendly, in short.

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7 hours ago, on4bam said:

It may not be dead but it seems it's being killed. While maintaining my database I noticed a series of caches with 500+ favorites each (and having seen the CO's work before I'm sure they were well worth it) being archived by "Geocaching HQ admin", locking the listing in the process. These were not recently places caches and there is nothing in the logs that even hints to problems which makes this very strange.

Oh well, someone will come around and throw some P&G micros around this new freed up space :ph34r:

 

 

I am fairly new to this hobby, but am engrossed and enjoying it.  There are a few near me that are in disrepair that I wish someone would kill so I can replace one at better GZ.  One in a power-line field near me comes to mind where it was under a bush that the power company removed, so now there is a blue ammo can on the ground in a field.  

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1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

In your area, what's it like at events? Do people talk about the importance of maintenance? Do they encourage each other to log NMs and follow-up NAs?

In my area, no one needs to discuss maintenance or NMs and NAs because it all just happens. I don't know how my culture got the way it is, so for all I know it's because there was lots of talk at events about these issues before I came on the scene.

1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

What do they think of people who hide for numbers and never maintain but are avid hiders?

COs that hide a lot but don't seem to maintain them don't come up very often, but the cases I can think of, what people think about those COs was "they didn't last very long" because all those caches are gone now and the COs have disappeared.

1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

Or is there a negative vibe about "cache cop" types?

I've never heard anyone complain about NMs and NAs, if that's what you mean. I haven't heard anyone use the term "cache cop" around here (except maybe in jest), but if they did, I'd assume they were talking about someone that regularly posted NMs and NAs that were rude, unhelpful, or just wrong.

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:
1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

In your area, what's it like at events? Do people talk about the importance of maintenance? Do they encourage each other to log NMs and follow-up NAs? What do they think of people who hide for numbers and never maintain but are avid hiders? Or is there a negative vibe about "cache cop" types?

Events always seem very, highly social. Newcomers are more often quieter and less interactive, but everyone's very friendly. Sure, there could be some divisions and cliques, but rarely do I see any visible negativity or antagonism. If anything, it happens quietly or behind people's backs :P There's not a lot of talk about the rights ways to do things, because it doesn't seem like there's a problem with people doing things the wrong way... occasionally there's some discussion about new features and the way people like to do things themselves, but I rarely ever get the sense that there's some widespread disagreement. In the greater area I know there are a couple of people who have struck smoe bad chords with the community, but that's general geocacher etiquette, not related to questionable GS features/practices...  I don't get the sense anyone feels like there's a "cache cop" in my area either.

Keep in mind, this is of course all my own observations. Things could be going on in smaller groups that I'm not privy to. Heck maybe I'm heckled by everyone and I don't know it =P But this is what I see in my general local community.  Lots of general camaraderie, especially by those who don't bind themselves to any major group, but some distinct groups of friends and common cachers, though no prominent/public in-fighting or hobby-detracting all-out wars. Quite nNewbie frendly, in short.

It's much the same where I am and the events I have attended.  Very social, a few known groups that cache together a lot, but they seem open to having others join in too.  Most of the discussion revolves around the caches in the area that have been memorable and recently visited, or puzzles that are vexing.  Help with the app, questions about stuff in general are welcomed.  Discussions about upcoming events and mega events, plans to cache together int he future ... not a lot of maintenance discussions or whether to post NM or NA.  It happens if it's needed non discussion necessary.

I've posted a few NM's with no negative feedback - the cache was either fixed promptly or archived by the CO or reviewer.  

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7 hours ago, badlands said:

There is no such thing as a weatherproof container.  Without regular maintenance even an ammo can will succumb to the elements.

Almost any container can be used as a cache container "if" it's placed and maintained properly.

Sadly, some of biggest issues Groundspeak faces (or chooses not to face) are dead (missing) caches and ill maintained caches.  A proactive approach to these two issues would go a long way in keeping people in the game.

I must beg to differ. Just last week I found this cache hidden in a large tree stump in the Watagan Mountains forest. It was placed in 2005 and is still the original container with the original logbook, everything bone dry and in excellent condition. Its hiding place, while exposed to rain, protects it from the sun.

DSC_0430.jpg.5552ae5e76f360e0fe6bd0ea39f4527a.jpgDSC_0429.jpg.400a816c2d4f8783af07359c9370bd32.jpg

And since you mentioned ammo cans, here's one I found a few weeks back. This one, hidden in 2011, was tucked in under a rock ledge and still in pretty much mint condition with its original logbook. It doesn't get wet where it is so I expect I'll be long gone before it rusts out.

DSC_0322.jpg.6906999e0554e4f2ec50278297fa6c9f.jpg

I've found plenty of others like this that have survived many years without constant maintenance from their owners. Here's one of my own, hidden in 2015, that I checked on last month. The only thing that's changed since the day I put it there are the names people have written in the logbook.

20180406_093142.jpg.a6e97d4badd5bfe5be0e2c7e6fc50a71.jpg

That one, as the name suggests, is inside a cave so it's protected from sun and water. It's really not that hard to come up with a cache that'll last decades without any maintenance needed. It just needs a little care in the choice of container and hiding place.

Edited by barefootjeff
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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

I must beg to differ. Just last week I found this cache hidden in a large tree stump in the Watagan Mountains forest. It was placed in 2005 and is still the original container with the original logbook, everything bone dry and in excellent condition. Its hiding place, while exposed to rain, protects it from the sun.

DSC_0430.jpg.5552ae5e76f360e0fe6bd0ea39f4527a.jpgDSC_0429.jpg.400a816c2d4f8783af07359c9370bd32.jpg

And since you mentioned ammo cans, here's one I found a few weeks back. This one, hidden in 2011, was tucked in under a rock ledge and still in pretty much mint condition with its original logbook. It doesn't get wet where it is so I expect I'll be long gone before it rusts out.

DSC_0322.jpg.6906999e0554e4f2ec50278297fa6c9f.jpg

I've found plenty of others like this that have survived many years without constant maintenance from their owners. Here's one of my own, hidden in 2015, that I checked on last month. The only thing that's changed since the day I put it there are the names people have written in the logbook.

20180406_093142.jpg.a6e97d4badd5bfe5be0e2c7e6fc50a71.jpg

That one, as the name suggests, is inside a cave so it's protected from sun and water. It's really not that hard to come up with a cache that'll last decades without any maintenance needed. It just needs a little care in the choice of container and hiding place.

 

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

"if" it's placed and maintained properly

My point exactly.  With proper placement a cache can last a very long time.

However, for everyone you show me that has stood the test of time, I can show you ten or more than have not.

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50 minutes ago, badlands said:

My point exactly.  With proper placement a cache can last a very long time.

Well that isn't what you originally said: "There is no such thing as a weatherproof container. Without regular maintenance even an ammo can will succumb to the elements." An appropriately-designed cache (and I include both container and hiding place in the design) shouldn't need regular maintenance to keep it in good nick.

52 minutes ago, badlands said:

However, for everyone you show me that has stood the test of time, I can show you ten or more than have not.

Here it's very much the other way around. It's rare for me to find a cache that's "gone off", the vast majority are in good condition with dry logbooks. Perhaps it helps that I live in a regional town with lots of bushland and a subtropical climate that's kind to caches. Perhaps it also helps that the local caching community is more into bushland hides than power trails - the nearest of those is a couple of hours driving away - or parking lot hides. Our lamp posts don't have skirts covering their nuts so we're also spared that scourge.

The worst containers I've struck are Eclipse tins which don't seal very well and rust out in no time in our coastal sea air, but those that try those either learn from their mistake and replace them with something better, or disappear from the game with their caches soon dealt with through NM and NA logs.

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16 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

I disagree.

If the cache needed maintenance / archving it makes no difference how I came upon it.

I agree with you,  but others may see it differently depending on how you were going about it.   If your visiting these caches and posting the proper logs most wouldn't have an issue with that.   If your sitting behind your computer and scouring the area looking for caches YOU think need maintenance or need to be archived, well that's a different animal all together.   Although these caches may well deserve to be archived, I can see how that approach may rub some people the wrong way.    Right or wrong you must have known there was going to be some backlash.    

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We had two local cachers who sat at their computers in January and did a scan of caches local to them and posted a lot of NM logs.  Two months later I sat at my computer, checked on those caches and posted 9 NA logs.

Not one complaint from anyone. 

Some of the NM logs triggered owner intervention.  A couple of my NA's triggered owner intervention.   The rest have been disabled by a local reviewer.

Not seen any backlash here.  Communities obviously differ.

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18 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

I agree with you,  but others may see it differently depending on how you were going about it.   If your visiting these caches and posting the proper logs most wouldn't have an issue with that.   If your sitting behind your computer and scouring the area looking for caches YOU think need maintenance or need to be archived, well that's a different animal all together.   Although these caches may well deserve to be archived, I can see how that approach may rub some people the wrong way.    Right or wrong you must have known there was going to be some backlash.    

So what you're saying is that I should have treated any abandoned, junky caches as sacrosanct wherever I had the slightest suspicion that I might suffer backlash.

Now you see why I don't bother any more.

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45 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

So what you're saying is that I should have treated any abandoned, junky caches as sacrosanct wherever I had the slightest suspicion that I might suffer backlash.

Now you see why I don't bother any more.

I'm assuming now that you were essentially preforming the roll of reviewer and making judgements on the condition of caches from the comfort of your own living room.

No.   The point is think before you act.   Look at it from all sides and anticipate all the possible outcomes of your actions.   If you've done that and can live with the consequences than go for it.   But as the saying goes  "If you can't stand the heat,  stay out of the kitchen."    If you didn't expect some sort of backlash than you were naive.    If you did than you were not prepared to handle the level of backlash you experienced.    

I personally don't see an issue with blowing the whistle on any cache I think needs to be looked at by a reviewer,  but in most cases that's the extent of my involvement.   I've made my reviewer aware of what I see and an issue.  It's their job to follow through if they agree with me.   

Now if you told me you were getting flack for posting routine  NM's and NA's on caches you visited and others were giving you a hard time.  I'd tell you to keep on keeping on and I'd tell them to go pound sand. 

 

Edited by justintim1999
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7 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:
52 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

So what you're saying is that I should have treated any abandoned, junky caches as sacrosanct wherever I had the slightest suspicion that I might suffer backlash.

Now you see why I don't bother any more.

I'm assuming now that you were essentially preforming the roll of reviewer and making judgements on the condition of caches from the comfort of your own living room.

No.   The point is think before you act.   Look at it from all sides and anticipate all the possible outcomes of your actions.   If you've done that and can live with the consequences than go for it.   But as the saying goes  "If you can't stand the heat,  stay out of the kitchen."    If you didn't expect some sort of backlash than you were naive.    If you did than you were not prepared to handle the level of backlash you experienced.    

Thanks - you've convinced me that I made the right decision in opting out of this entire aspect of geocaching :)

It's much less stressful to leave the housekeeping to others and let them be on the recieving end of the caching mafia ;)

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Do you see how some people could take exception to that approach?   If there was an individual doing that in my area it wouldn't bother me in the least because I have nothing to hide unless I felt they were being too aggressive with there logs.  See now your getting into that grey area of interpreting logs and guidelines and that's where trouble can start. 

It's probably best to let reviewers handle that job.  All one can do is post accurate, informative logs and let the chips fall where they may.   

I am surprised you didn't receive any support from other responsible cache owners in your community.   If the "ole boy" network is really that strong where you are it's probably best to keep you head down unless your willing and able to challenge the mob.       

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19 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 There's not a lot of talk about the rights ways to do things, because it doesn't seem like there's a problem with people doing things the wrong way.

 

Yes, I agree.

Many of the avid hiders are also avid event goers and host too. Is the topic of maintenance not discussed because it would be awkward? Those avid owners have so many they can not keep up with maintenance, getting community maintenance from fellow event-goers who carry a bagful of ready-made pill bottles to 'help' those high numbers COs. Often (especially if they've been caching for more than a couple of years and the hiding addiction has taken hold) they have caches with long-standing problems (missing, need repairs, wet/soggy). Often their form of maintenance is an archive without checking/retrieving and sometimes (some avid COs always) leave the job of archival to the reviewer. 

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18 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

Do you see how some people could take exception to that approach?   If there was an individual doing that in my area it wouldn't bother me in the least because I have nothing to hide unless I felt they were being too aggressive with there logs.  See now your getting into that grey area of interpreting logs and guidelines and that's where trouble can start. 

It's probably best to let reviewers handle that job.  All one can do is post accurate, informative logs and let the chips fall where they may.   

I am surprised you didn't receive any support from other responsible cache owners in your community.   If the "ole boy" network is really that strong where you are it's probably best to keep you head down unless your willing and able to challenge the mob.       

You're right of course - we should all really surrender to he who shouts loudest - or anyone in fact who takes exception to the idea that anyone at all would care enough to try to have obvious abandoned junk got rid of.

I appreciate your support in convincing me that I've made the right choice by just ignoring all that, claiming my smiley and walking away B)

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3 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

Yes, I agree.

Many of the avid hiders are also avid event goers and host too. Is the topic of maintenance not discussed because it would be awkward? Those avid owners have so many they can not keep up with maintenance, getting community maintenance from fellow event-goers who carry a bagful of ready-made pill bottles to 'help' those high numbers COs. Often (especially if they've been caching for more than a couple of years and the hiding addiction has taken hold) they have caches with long-standing problems (missing, need repairs, wet/soggy). Often their form of maintenance is an archive without checking/retrieving and sometimes (some avid COs always) leave the job of archival to the reviewer. 

I guess the point to clarify is this - it's not that there aren't any problems out there around here, but rather that the ecosystem of our local region is more positive than negative, compared to some others out there. There may be a lot more criticism out there in the region, but it's not a toxic environment - people are generally much more respectful and friendly as a community, together, than it seems some other regions are. NM/NA/DNFs still being logged as always, without public backlash (save a few rare exceptions). If there is a responsive negativity to that, then at least to my experience, it's kept to oneself or one's closely knit friends/clique; ie, not a detriment to the hobby in the greater region.  That was the point I was trying to get at... :)  basically a regionally applied "if you can't say anything nice" mentality, which helps keep the hobby positive for newcomers, and more open to discussing guidelines and generally accepted regional etiquette that's beneficial for the community. And, hopefully, the people who may have major problems with others in the region, either find a way to work through it with those directly involved, or just don't drag others down in the conflict souring the environment for bystanders.

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42 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

It's probably best to let reviewers handle that job.

This doesn't take into account areas of neglect where no one in the community will post NMs and NAs. And reviewers in that area only deal with caches where an NA has been posted.

It is a service to the community and especially to anyone traveling to that community, to log NMs and NAs.

It is a service when those planning a cache trip to the area, log NMs/NAs as they do their search. If I was to travel to TM's area (a very expensive trip for me, with precious vacation time for caching especially when traveling with others) I would appreciate those people willing to scan for derelict caches that need attention.  It's also a matter of pride in the community. It takes all of us to keep the pastime standards up.

 

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Just now, Team Microdot said:

You're right of course - we should all really surrender to he who shouts loudest - or anyone in fact who takes exception to the idea that anyone at all would care enough to try to have obvious abandoned junk got rid of.

I appreciate your support in convincing me that I've made the right choice by just ignoring all that, claiming my smiley and walking away B)

"We should all really surrender to he who shouts loudest" is a bit melodramatic and not what I was saying at all.    Some people avoid confrontation.  Others run headlong into it, sometimes foolishly.    I can tell it's killing you to sit back and allow things you perceive as negatively effecting the game continue. 

Sometimes when your not winning,  and quitting isn't an option,  you change your tactics. 

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1 minute ago, L0ne.R said:

This doesn't take into account areas of neglect where no one in the community will post NMs and NAs. And reviewers only deal with caches where an NA has been posted.

It is a service to the community and especially to anyone traveling to that community, to log NMs and NAs.

It is a service when those planning a cache trip to the area, log NMs/NAs as they do their search. If I was to travel to TM's area (a very expensive trip for me, with precious vacation time for caching especially when traveling with others) I would appreciate those people willing to scan for derelict caches that need attention.  It's also a matter of pride in the community. It takes all of us to keep the pastime standards up.

 

If that's the case than you have to decide if your going to be that person,   regardless of how your going to be perceived.

"All plans are great until the first shots are fired."

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9 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:
27 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

You're right of course - we should all really surrender to he who shouts loudest - or anyone in fact who takes exception to the idea that anyone at all would care enough to try to have obvious abandoned junk got rid of.

I appreciate your support in convincing me that I've made the right choice by just ignoring all that, claiming my smiley and walking away B)

"We should all really surrender to he who shouts loudest" is a bit melodramatic and not what I was saying at all.    Some people avoid confrontation.  Others run headlong into it, sometimes foolishly.    I can tell it's killing you to sit back and allow things you perceive as negatively effecting the game continue. 

Sometimes when your not winning,  and quitting isn't an option,  you change your tactics. 

Melodramatic you say?

Ranting on public and private groups on FB because someone's logged NA on a cache that you don't own and that's one in a long string of caches abandoned by a long-since retired CO that's been in need of maintenance for months? I'd say that was melodramatic.

Maintaining an ongoing campaign against 'people from out of the area' logging NM / NA on a nano on a random urban security gate because someone dared to log NA after verifying that the CO had moved away and abandoned it years earlier? I'd say that was melodramatic.

But I'm a staunch advocate of democratic process so if the overhwhelming vote is against me then I gracefully bow down before those who really know what's best for everyone ;)

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3 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Melodramatic you say?

Ranting on public and private groups on FB because someone's logged NA on a cache that you don't own and that's one in a long string of caches abandoned by a long-since retired CO that's been in need of maintenance for months? I'd say that was melodramatic.

Maintaining an ongoing campaign against 'people from out of the area' logging NM / NA on a nano on a random urban security gate because someone dared to log NA after verifying that the CO had moved away and abandoned it years earlier? I'd say that was melodramatic.

But I'm a staunch advocate of democratic process so if the overhwhelming vote is against me then I gracefully bow down before those who really know what's best for everyone ;)

Now that was dramatic!;) 

Although I can't say I agree with the bowing down part.

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16 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Here it's very much the other way around. It's rare for me to find a cache that's "gone off", the vast majority are in good condition with dry logbooks. Perhaps it helps that I live in a regional town with lots of bushland and a subtropical climate that's kind to caches. Perhaps it also helps that the local caching community is more into bushland hides than power trails - the nearest of those is a couple of hours driving away - or parking lot hides. Our lamp posts don't have skirts covering their nuts so we're also spared that scourge.

The worst containers I've struck are Eclipse tins which don't seal very well and rust out in no time in our coastal sea air, but those that try those either learn from their mistake and replace them with something better, or disappear from the game with their caches soon dealt with through NM and NA logs.

Wow you are lucky in my area (on a coastline) I have found so many wet logbook that it isn't even funny. Some CO like to place a bunch of cache and then hope that finders will maintain them.

To answer to the current thread I post DNF when I don't find a cache and NM/NA when there is some consecutive DNF because a good percentage of CO don't cache anymore or are dead.

For the OP geocaching isn't dead but the peak have been passed around 2013 in my area and slowly go down but with 3.1M of active cache (in reality I would say more around 2.5M) I have still plenty of cache to find but the quality isn't where it could be. 

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I'm sorry, off topic, but I just gotta say, your != you're... mistakes and typos are one thing (I know you keep saying you're a bad speller Justin, but you write very lengthy, above average comments conceptually) but ugh, I don't think you've ever written "you're" in your comments :P plzplzplz try to get used to using the contraction - please?  You're making your "yours" your grammatical downfall... :lol:

/returns the mic

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3 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I'm sorry, off topic, but I just gotta say, your != you're... mistakes and typos are one thing (I know you keep saying you're a bad speller Justin, but you write very lengthy, above average comments conceptually) but ugh, I don't think you've ever written "you're" in your comments :P plzplzplz try to get used to using the contraction - please?  You're making your "yours" your grammatical downfall... :lol:

/returns the mic

Did you understand what he meant?

Are your posts always word perfect?

 

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

I'm sorry, off topic, but I just gotta say, your != you're... mistakes and typos are one thing (I know you keep saying you're a bad speller Justin, but you write very lengthy, above average comments conceptually) but ugh, I don't think you've ever written "you're" in your comments :P plzplzplz try to get used to using the contraction - please?  You're making your "yours" your grammatical downfall... :lol:

/returns the mic

You're point is well taken.   Sometimes all it takes is someone to bring something like this to light.   Bad habits are hard to break but I'll try. 

Now my memory is about as bad as my spelling so stay tuned.;)

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5 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

I expect my Oscar is in the mail ;)

“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.”
George Orwell

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7 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.”
George Orwell

That guy really knew his onions.

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On 5/2/2018 at 7:46 PM, L0ne.R said:

In your area, what's it like at events? Do people talk about the importance of maintenance? Do they encourage each other to log NMs and follow-up NAs? What do they think of people who hide for numbers and never maintain but are avid hiders? Or is there a negative vibe about "cache cop" types?

Whilst it isn't generally a major topic, I've seen 4 types of discussion which come up every so often:   (Names are fictitious):  

1.  "Specific cache X seems abandoned by the CO, it's a mess or missing".    In this case everyone encourages them to log a NM and or NA.

2.   "Bob never maintains his caches.    I just found another of his which is in bad shape".    In this case there might be some grumbling about Bob.. as well as suggestions to NM or NA the specific caches.

3.   "Stan is a great CO.   When any hint of an issue is reported, he is out there quickly".    In this case, everyone agrees that Stan is great.

4.   "Fred is a helpful cacher.   He always carries spare logs, and he's helped me maintain some of my caches".    In this case there is agreement on how helpful Fred is.   Generally nobody says "Fred shouldn't do that, you as the CO should maintain them yourself".

 

Very occasionally this happens:

5.  "Did you see that Carl logged a whole bunch of NAs on caches he didn't even visit"?   In this case, most don't approve of Carl's actions.    Unless maybe it was on Bob's caches, and someone says "well, Bob's never going to maintain them so just as well to get rid of them".

 

I would summarize the mood locally as:  

A.   Cachers think maintenance is important, and value COs who do it.

B.    They also value when other than the CO helps out.   

C.  No issues with cachers raising NM or NAs, but a cacher who seems to try and clear them up by armchair logging NM or NA isn't well thought of.    

 

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14 minutes ago, redsox_mark said:

Very occasionally this happens:

5.  "Did you see that Carl logged a whole bunch of NAs on caches he didn't even visit"?   In this case, most don't approve of Carl's actions.    Unless maybe it was on Bob's caches, and someone says "well, Bob's never going to maintain them so just as well to get rid of them".

 

14 minutes ago, redsox_mark said:

I would summarize the mood locally as: 

C.  No issues with cachers raising NM or NAs, but a cacher who seems to try and clear them up by armchair logging NM or NA isn't well thought of.

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head - apart from Unless maybe it was on Bob's caches, and someone says "well, Bob's never going to maintain them so just as well to get rid of them.

In my experience there are some who will STILL protest violently - knowing fully that Bob is never going to maintain them and this is where the melodrama mentioned earlier kicks in in earnest.

 

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21 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Ranting on public and private groups on FB because someone's logged NA on a cache that you don't own and that's one in a long string of caches abandoned by a long-since retired CO that's been in need of maintenance for months? I'd say that was melodramatic.

I don't understand their logic in this situation, particularly if it's within the area where that person who logged the NA regularly caches.  The ONLY reason I can see their angst having some merit is if the cache is a particularly old one, but even that should have limits.  I'm also assuming that the appropriate NM log was filed first.  Wouldn't cachers want a new cache to go find if one is archived and a new spot is opened up? Seems counterproductive to me.

 

21 hours ago, Team Microdot said:

Maintaining an ongoing campaign against 'people from out of the area' logging NM / NA on a nano on a random urban security gate because someone dared to log NA after verifying that the CO had moved away and abandoned it years earlier? I'd say that was melodramatic.

I would log the NM if I were in the area caching and wouldn't care what they thought or tried to do.  I would NOT log the NM if I had no intention of actually visiting the cache.  While it might appear to be missing or in bad shape, I won't file the NM unless I've visited the location myself to verify that it's truly in need of maintenance.  I believe that if I were to do so, I'd be acting more like a reviewer and less like a cacher, looking for caches that need fixing (or removal) rather than finding them (or not) and logging the appropriate NM/NA based on my actual caching activity.  I'm not a reviewer and have no intention of doing their job for them.  It really doesn't bother me if others do that (to each their own); I just wouldn't do it myself unless I actually visited a location to verify it with my own eyes.  Most of my filtering of caches, however, means most of those types of caches don't even make it into my list of targeted caches.

Were the NM/NA logs filed by a cacher who visited the location or were they filed by someone who lives farther away and has no plans to visit the area?  If it's the former, I once again don't understand their logic.  If the cache is in bad shape and isn't being maintained, then the removal of the cache could pave the way for a new cache to be hidden and a new opportunity for someone else to hide a cache so that the community has something new to find.  If it's the latter, I'm wondering why those particular caches of that cacher would even matter to the person filing the NM/NA logs? If it IS by someone who lives farther away but does have plans to visit the area, does that mean they want a guarantee that all the caches in a particular area to be in good shape when they visit?  I realize that's the best case scenario (as well as the preference of most of us), but in real life that's not always the case.  There's no guarantee that the cache will even be there or that one would find it.

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9 minutes ago, redsox_mark said:

Whilst it isn't generally a major topic, I've seen 4 types of discussion which come up every so often:   (Names are fictitious):  

1.  "Specific cache X seems abandoned by the CO, it's a mess or missing".    In this case everyone encourages them to log a NM and or NA.

2.   "Bob never maintains his caches.    I just found another of his which is in bad shape".    In this case there might be some grumbling about Bob.. as well as suggestions to NM or NA the specific caches.

3.   "Stan is a great CO.   When any hint of an issue is reported, he is out there quickly".    In this case, everyone agrees that Stan is great.

4.   "Fred is a helpful cacher.   He always carries spare logs, and he's helped me maintain some of my caches".    In this case there is agreement on how helpful Fred is.   Generally nobody says "Fred shouldn't do that, you as the CO should maintain them yourself".

 

Very occasionally this happens:

5.  "Did you see that Carl logged a whole bunch of NAs on caches he didn't even visit"?   In this case, most don't approve of Carl's actions.    Unless maybe it was on Bob's caches, and someone says "well, Bob's never going to maintain them so just as well to get rid of them".

 

I would summarize the mood locally as:  

A.   Cachers think maintenance is important, and value COs who do it.

B.    They also value when other than the CO helps out.   

C.  No issues with cachers raising NM or NAs, but a cacher who seems to try and clear them up by armchair logging NM or NA isn't well thought of.    

 

C is the tricky one.  Most can look at the cache history and come to a reasonable conclusion that a cache isn't going to be maintained.    Problem is you're now crossing over into reviewer territory.   I think the whole objection to C hinges on the fact that the cache wasn't visited personally but the logger and some have a fundamental objection to that.   Now if the same person visited the cache, posted a NM and a month later re-visited the cache and posted another NM I don't think most cachers would have a problem with it.

I guess if you're interested in being a cache cop in your community, and let me be clear that I see no issue with that at all, than you're going to have to be a cop on the beat.     

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3 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

C is the tricky one.  Most can look at the cache history and come to a reasonable conclusion that a cache isn't going to be maintained.    Problem is you're now crossing over into reviewer territory.   I think the whole objection to C hinges on the fact that the cache wasn't visited personally but the logger and some have a fundamental objection to that.   Now if the same person visited the cache, posted a NM and a month later re-visited the cache and posted another NM I don't think most cachers would have a problem with it.

So you think it's incumbent on those logging NM/NA on an obviously abandoned, junky cache to visit that cache not once but twice and to log two NM's but not an NA?

I must be misunderstanding you because who in their right mind would go to that degree of effort when the CO themselves has walked away and left the cache to rot?

You can't be saying that it's OK for the CO to walk away and leave the cache to rot while anyone who would like to see that cache wiped off the map must jump through at least two hoops and monitor the cache for at least one month?

Although it does indeed seem there are people out there who think like this - or just think that nobody should do anything unless they say so, or that anybody who does take action should be harassed and belittled.

The longer this conversation goes on, the gladder I am to have given up ^_^

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8 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

So you think it's incumbent on those logging NM/NA on an obviously abandoned, junky cache to visit that cache not once but twice and to log two NM's but not an NA?

I must be misunderstanding you because who in their right mind would go to that degree of effort when the CO themselves has walked away and left the cache to rot?

You can't be saying that it's OK for the CO to walk away and leave the cache to rot while anyone who would like to see that cache wiped off the map must jump through at least two hoops and monitor the cache for at least one month?

Although it does indeed seem there are people out there who think like this - or just think that nobody should do anything unless they say so, or that anybody who does take action should be harassed and belittled.

The longer this conversation goes on, the gladder I am to have given up ^_^

If you want to avoid backlash than that's exactly what I'm saying.   If I were to tackle this project I'd make sure that when the complaining started,  "THEY" wouldn't have a leg to stand on. :ph34r:

Given time maybe the CHS will help weed out these caches in a more timely manor. 

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1 minute ago, justintim1999 said:

If you want to avoid backlash than that's exactly what I'm saying.   If I were to tackle this project I'd make sure that when the complaining started,  "THEY" wouldn't have a leg to stand on. :ph34r:

Given time maybe the CHS will help weed out these caches in a more timely manor. 

If the caching mafia have their way those caches probably won't be weeded out in a timely manner.

Loggers are discouraged from mentioning the state of the cache in their logs.

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5 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

If the caching mafia have their way those caches probably won't be weeded out in a timely manner.

Loggers are discouraged from mentioning the state of the cache in their logs.

Well there's always plan B

Edited by justintim1999
Caught myself that time.

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6 hours ago, coachstahly said:

While it might appear to be missing or in bad shape, I won't file the NM unless I've visited the location myself to verify that it's truly in need of maintenance.

Exactly. For all I know, it could have been maintaince between the last log and when I post the NM, so unless I've first-hand verified that it still needs maintenance (as I assume) as of my visit, then my NM could be wrong.  On the other hand (but not sufficient to tip the scale, imo) if the cache was visited & fixed, the unverified NM could be a nudge to the CO to post that OM or note to let people know the cache was visited and dispell any concern. Not enough for me to do that though.

However, on caches that have had a looooong period of noted disrepair, NM, DNFs, notes, and no response from the CO, I may be inclined to post a NA even if I don't visit. If the CO is active, they can easily reverse the process by maintaining it. If not, the cache is moved along for reviewer attention.

That's typically my NM/NA strategy, that also seems to be general etiquette of my region.

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3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Exactly. For all I know, it could have been maintaince between the last log and when I post the NM, so unless I've first-hand verified that it still needs maintenance (as I assume) as of my visit, then my NM could be wrong.  On the other hand (but not sufficient to tip the scale, imo) if the cache was visited & fixed, the unverified NM could be a nudge to the CO to post that OM or note to let people know the cache was visited and dispell any concern.

What scale? I've read the logs, there's plenty of reason to post an NM and zero reason to go to GZ because the cache is clearly missing. The fact that the CO fixed the obvious problem but didn't post an OM is itself a reason the cache needs maintenance: it needs an OM posted so everyone knows the state of the cache as reflected in the log is obsolete.

 

I think not posting an NM because you can imagine some remote possibility in which it might be wrong just encourages the idea that NMs are bad. The more clearly wrong an NM is, the easier it is to post the OM that explains why.

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