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Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hide

Is Geocaching Dead?

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3 hours ago, 321geocache said:

Geoaching isn't just about swag, trackables, cool containers, fancy logbooks, etc. (In fact, I've yet to trade swag or drop/grab a trackable). It's about the places that it takes you. I have found several LPCs and magetic nanos on street signs. They aren't really "role model geocaches" IMO.

I have hidden one cache. I tried to place it in an area that had some historical significance (in this case, a park in a historic neighborhood) and make it a bit interesting - not just an LPC or a magnetic nano. What is the point of placing an LPC? What's the point of trying to find geocaches just for numbers? In my opinion, the point of geocaching isn't just the container - it's the cache location. Geocaching is supposed to bring us to interesting places. Not Walmart parking lots.

The more interesting caches we hide, the more people will think Geocaching is an interesting hobby.

What you'll very quickly find about geocaching is that of the hundreds or thousands you find, you'll always end up with a handful of gems that make it all worthwhile. We don't necessarily go geocaching for the amazing experience of every single geocache, but we look forward to those unexpected times when we stumble upon a wonderful, a beautiful location, a friendly fellow cacher, or a unique personal experience.  We cache for those moments, not every single smiley (at least most of us do after a while, I think ;) )

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50 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

What you'll very quickly find about geocaching is that of the hundreds or thousands you find, you'll always end up with a handful of gems that make it all worthwhile. We don't necessarily go geocaching for the amazing experience of every single geocache, but we look forward to those unexpected times when we stumble upon a wonderful, a beautiful location, a friendly fellow cacher, or a unique personal experience.  We cache for those moments, not every single smiley (at least most of us do after a while, I think ;) )

Definitely. Most of the caches near me are just LPCs or magnetic nanos. However, what makes geocaching fun is that handful of gems. For example, I recently found a cache that was camouflaged extremely well among a lot of ivy plants. It took me a few minutes to find, and was definitely an interesting find.

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15 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

What you'll very quickly find about geocaching is that of the hundreds or thousands you find, you'll always end up with a handful of gems that make it all worthwhile. We don't necessarily go geocaching for the amazing experience of every single geocache, but we look forward to those unexpected times when we stumble upon a wonderful, a beautiful location, a friendly fellow cacher, or a unique personal experience.  We cache for those moments, not every single smiley (at least most of us do after a while, I think ;) )

Yes, that is what happens when the cacher's goal is to simply find caches - a handful of gems amongst hundreds or thousands of forgettable of finds.  Unfortunately, in my opinion, that's why many don't last long in this hobby.  I was fortunate to discover an approach to caching that has resulted in just the opposite for me - many, many more memorable finds than forgettable ones.  I almost gave up caching after about 6 months of finding mostly a bunch of meaningless, easy finds in totally forgettable locations.  But then I discovered that I needed to focus on what are gems to me - higher D/T caches, especially those that involve getting out into the backcountry.  I'll take a 10 mile off trail hike for a single cache at a nice place in the mountains over 10 caches on a 1 mile trail any day.  I am happy to be able to say that I can fondly recall my adventures on probably 80+% of the caches I've found since I began to really focus on what are gems to me.  Yes, I still find a forgettable cache now and then but often times that's because the cache is needed for a challenge that I want to complete.

I realize everyone has their own approach to caching and definition of a gem, but my advice to new cachers is that gems are out there and the more they focus on the search for gems, the more likely it is that they'll be around this hobby for quite some time.

 

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10 minutes ago, icezebra11 said:

Yes, that is what happens when the cacher's goal is to simply find caches - a handful of gems amongst hundreds or thousands of forgettable of finds.  Unfortunately, in my opinion, that's why many don't last long in this hobby.  I was fortunate to discover an approach to caching that has resulted in just the opposite for me - many, many more memorable finds than forgettable ones.  I almost gave up caching after about 6 months of finding mostly a bunch of meaningless, easy finds in totally forgettable locations.  But then I discovered that I needed to focus on what are gems to me - higher D/T caches, especially those that involve getting out into the backcountry.  I'll take a 10 mile off trail hike for a single cache at a nice place in the mountains over 10 caches on a 1 mile trail any day.  I am happy to be able to say that I can fondly recall my adventures on probably 80+% of the caches I've found since I began to really focus on what are gems to me.  Yes, I still find a forgettable cache now and then but often times that's because the cache is needed for a challenge that I want to complete.

I realize everyone has their own approach to caching and definition of a gem, but my advice to new cachers is that gems are out there and the more they focus on the search for gems, the more likely it is that they'll be around this hobby for quite some time.

Right, and that's why it's quite subjective what we individually find valuable in geocaching, and recommending one thing (like "higher D/T caches") may have no positive effect for some people. I know many people who don't enjoy higher DT caches, and prefer quicker park & grabs, easy access containers, or their gems might be gadget caches. Who knows.

So the best advice is, of course, to search for what you enjoy the most.  You may still end up with way more less enjoyable caches than enjoyable one, which is why I think the best part of geocaching is not finding every cache [that you think you'll enjoy before you actually find it], but rather finding those occasional gems [whatever it is that you value] amongst all the caches that you do find.

If you have way more gems than status quo, then excellent! You'll be having an absolute blast :) But most cachers don't; so be ready to understand that not every cache you find will be a memorable experience (even if you only search for caches you think you'll enjoy!)

ETA: I'm more of a realist, so yeah my perspective is more like 'be prepared for disappointment so you can enjoy the best better' than just 'do everything you can to only find the best' :)

Edited by thebruce0

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9 minutes ago, icezebra11 said:

I realize everyone has their own approach to caching and definition of a gem, but my advice to new cachers is that gems are out there and the more they focus on the search for gems, the more likely it is that they'll be around this hobby for quite some time.

This is what I really want to do, focus on gems.

I want to find family-friendly caches. With a focus on responsible active hiders that produce gems--maintained, swag-size containers in nice locations.

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17 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

What you'll very quickly find about geocaching is that of the hundreds or thousands you find, you'll always end up with a handful of gems that make it all worthwhile. We don't necessarily go geocaching for the amazing experience of every single geocache, but we look forward to those unexpected times when we stumble upon a wonderful, a beautiful location, a friendly fellow cacher, or a unique personal experience.  We cache for those moments, not every single smiley (at least most of us do after a while, I think ;) )

I found one in a nature area, across the street from my house, in an area I hunt.  I had no idea that this area existed and I have spent days in these woods.  This past weekend we went to a park we used to go to a lot and found even more cool areas.  I take my whole family so we all feel the good and the bad.  I let my kids do the swag thing, and I leave trinkets from time to time, but I try make it about the trip through nature, not the contents of the can, and my boys have started to evolve to that.  

 

37 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

This is what I really want to do, focus on gems.

I want to find family-friendly caches. With a focus on responsible active hiders that produce gems--maintained, swag-size containers in nice locations.

All caches are family friendly if you are willing...  Big one 8 little one 3, dog 18 months

FB_IMG_1525115351328.jpgFB_IMG_1525115332453.thumb.jpg.5c334700f503b6026a5ffc0e4a5e70e7.jpg

Edited by StumblinMonk
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Love it!  With responsible parent, children can learn and experience a whole lot when they're young, hands on. Good job

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41 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Right, and that's why it's quite subjective what we individually find valuable in geocaching, and recommending one thing (like "higher D/T caches") may have no positive effect for some people. I know many people who don't enjoy higher DT caches, and prefer quicker park & grabs, easy access containers, or their gems might be gadget caches. Who knows.

So the best advice is, of course, to search for what you enjoy the most. 

This last sentence I quoted from your post summarizes what I said in my last paragraph.  To be clear, I do not tell people that they will only have fun if they do high D/T caches and that's not what I said in my post.  I only tell them that is my approach to keep the game fun for me and it's important that they keep their own game fun for themselves.

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Yep, so we're in agreement, just expanding on our points a bit more - We each started our replies agreeing with the quote ;).
Your initial response was that you reduced the ratio of signal to noise by searching more for what you want to find; I think we all need to do that (and someone who doesn't probably doesn't understand how searching works, or thinks they do need to 'find every cache').  My approach isn't not to do that, but rather just to encourage people to be ready for the fact that there will always be caches that are sub par or status quo relative to what you enjoy.

Whether it's most or some of your finds, depending on what you prefer, don't expect geocaching to always give you an awesome experience. If you go geocaching only for awesome experiences, you'll like be very disappointed and give up sooner. Go geocaching, find ones you like to find, and whether you do find mostly gems or not, you'll enjoy geocaching for the rare gems :)  And on that we seem to be in agreement.

Is geocaching dead? Only if your expectations for the experience you're seeking are too high. Or if your standard for geocaching being 'alive' is purely high numbers of active geocachers or geocaches.  Heck for sometone they might think geocaching is coming alive again the more the 'fringe' community give up the hobby... so I think it really depends who you ask.

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I am now convinced, the word gems is very subjective. What one person loves isn't what all people love. 

What I wish for are more filters so we all could find the caches we enjoy. 

 

 

 

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I hear a lot here about the type of of cache they like to find and seek out higher D/T expecting a better experience. Is there anyone like me that just enjoy the hunt and anything else is a bonus? So long as the cache is well maintained it doesn't matter to me what the D/T is. OK, many are not maintained to an acceptable standard but it's the searching I like. (BTW I'm not shy about using the NM log and following up with a NA if necessary). GZ doesn't have to be at the end of a long hike. There doesn't have to be particularly nice scenery as I get so engrossed in the hunt I sometimes forget to take in the nice views, if any. (Image of Chevy Chase and grand Canyon comes to mind). Yes, there are some hides that could be better selected and not be a rubbish dump sight but I'll find it, sign it and move on.

I appreciate COs placing caches for us to find and thank them in my logs, usually using their caching name as a courtesy rather than just TFTC.

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On 4/30/2018 at 3:23 AM, thebruce0 said:

What you'll very quickly find about geocaching is that of the hundreds or thousands you find, you'll always end up with a handful of gems that make it all worthwhile. We don't necessarily go geocaching for the amazing experience of every single geocache, but we look forward to those unexpected times when we stumble upon a wonderful, a beautiful location, a friendly fellow cacher, or a unique personal experience.  We cache for those moments, not every single smiley (at least most of us do after a while, I think ;) )

I agree with some of this.    For sure there are "gems" which I've found, and those are special.   I also try to focus my caching on caches I'm likely to enjoy.   But I also cache for the majority of caches which I find, which may not be "gems", but that I still enjoyed.

I'm one of those who was a hiker first, then found caching.    When caching close to home, I choose mainly based on location.   If I enjoy the walk, I'll enjoy the cache even if the container is ordinary, or has a wet log.    If the location is even better than I expected and the container/hide is unique/clever, then it is a gem for me.     There are some COs who I know all their caches are gems, these are to be treasured.    When I'm travelling it's a bit different; I still like the walk but I'm driven more by locations I'd like to visit or look interesting.    

Occasionally I go looking for a cache, which I believe in advance, most likely, I won't enjoy very much (solely based on the location).     Though sometimes there is an unexpected "gem" here; such an elegant or clever hide that the location (unless really horrible) doesn't really matter.    Most of time though the experience as I suspected, and I ask myself "why am I doing this".    I try to limit looking for caches like this.   One type of cache which torments me a bit are puzzle caches.   I like solving puzzles.   I don't like looking for caches in parking lots.   What do I do when I've solved (and enjoyed solving)  a puzzle, and now see the location is in a parking lot?    I generally look for it, as I want to complete the process on that puzzle.   And I remind myself that's why I'm doing it.    I don't enjoy the actual search, but I enjoy being able to mark that puzzle cache as found.    

Anyway, I think we are all agreed, try and focus on what you like, and you''ll be a happier geocacher.    Spend too much time finding caches you don't like there is danger you get burned out on caching.   

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I think another mentality might be whether there are caches you find that can ruin your experience and make it worse. I think we'd find that people who enjoy geocaching more are more willing to accept finding a sub-par container on a short walk and still enjoy the walk, where there certainly some that see that find as a black mark on their geocaching experience.  Personally, I may find an ugly, wet, stinky, soggy cache, but unless there's actually some detriment to myself, that won't make my experience worse, because my expectations weren't necessarily set, and uhltimately my life is still better of having the rest of the experience, and a bad container, to me, is a negligible thing.  That allows me to enjoy much more of geocaching as a hobby and activity.

What to me hurts the hobby is more negative social stuff, or situations that actively make geocaching worse for other people.  But personally, it'll take a lot for me to walk away from a geocache hunt feeling worse off.  Ask yourself what it is you value and what you gain from the hobby. If you generally come away more upset than pleased, maybe you can adjust something to enjoy the activity a little more :)

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9 hours ago, colleda said:

I hear a lot here about the type of of cache they like to find and seek out higher D/T expecting a better experience. Is there anyone like me that just enjoy the hunt and anything else is a bonus? So long as the cache is well maintained it doesn't matter to me what the D/T is. OK, many are not maintained to an acceptable standard but it's the searching I like. (BTW I'm not shy about using the NM log and following up with a NA if necessary). GZ doesn't have to be at the end of a long hike. There doesn't have to be particularly nice scenery as I get so engrossed in the hunt I sometimes forget to take in the nice views, if any. (Image of Chevy Chase and grand Canyon comes to mind). Yes, there are some hides that could be better selected and not be a rubbish dump sight but I'll find it, sign it and move on.

I appreciate COs placing caches for us to find and thank them in my logs, usually using their caching name as a courtesy rather than just TFTC.

When the other 2/3rds cached (especially when she was a FTF monster) we'd hit everything, whether it was a 5T rope climb, a film can in a roadside bush, or a MKH on a guard rail. 

Now that she's lost interest like many here, I hit the ones I like to do, and they don't include pill bottles placed just for a smiley. More than half the caches found and most events attended last year weren't even logged because I couldn't write something nice about them.  Not having that feeling to hit a rubbish dump just to find, sign and move on, has allowed me to enjoy the hobby again.   :)

I usually end my often wordy log with "thanks for the fun" followed by their cacher name too.

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3 hours ago, redsox_mark said:

But I also cache for the majority of caches which I find, which may not be "gems", but that I still enjoyed.

Yes, that's more to the point, being able to find more caches I enjoy.

Caches with active owners that are in reasonably good shape, in pleasant locations, accurate size, accurate D/T ratings, with owners who monitor and maintain. These are no longer the norm and are becoming (have become) elusive "gems". 

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10 hours ago, colleda said:

Is there anyone like me that just enjoy the hunt and anything else is a bonus?

Yes, I'm like that. I just want to go out and have a walk and find some caches. I'd say even a good hunt is a bonus, if by "the hunt: you mean cleverly hidden or some such.

10 hours ago, colleda said:

So long as the cache is well maintained it doesn't matter to me what the D/T is.

To me, even "well maintained": is just a bonus, although admittedly I live in an area where most caches are well maintained, so running into some broken down, leaking piece of junk is uncommon. But still, when I find a cache falling apart, I consider that a success, just not as much fun as it would have been if the container were in good shape.

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1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

... More than half the caches found and most events attended last year weren't even logged because I couldn't write something nice about them. 

That's just plain sad!  Either I live in an area that is a geocaching mecca, or I choose my caches "wisely"!  My experience is that most of the caches I find are in somewhat decent shape.  There is an occaisional mess, but it's more likely just to be damp, or dry and in a baggie.  Of the most recent 20 I've found, 18 of the containers were in decent shape, all logs dry and signable.  The other 2 were a Virtual and an Earthcache, with no container.  And although the Virtual was an oldie (2002) the CO replied with "Correct!" within an hour of my submission of answers.  And one we decided NOT to go for due to the previous logs stating the trashy condition - we tend to leave those alone.

Local events are fun, usually well done affairs.  Upwards of 20 cachers attending, most know each other and newbies are welcomed and quickly get introduced.  We are relative newbies (just over a year) and feel a part of the local crowd.  Events usually involve food, raffle prizes, FTF opportunities, and trackables galore to discover and exchange.

That's been my experience - traveling throughout the state, and neighboring states.  Even traveling to the East Coast I've had pretty positive experiences.  In my world, geocaching is NOT dead!

 

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1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

When the other 2/3rds cached (especially when she was a FTF monster) we'd hit everything, whether it was a 5T rope climb, a film can in a roadside bush, or a MKH on a guard rail. 

Now that she's lost interest like many here, I hit the ones I like to do, and they don't include pill bottles placed just for a smiley. More than half the caches found and most events attended last year weren't even logged because I couldn't write something nice about them.  Not having that feeling to hit a rubbish dump just to find, sign and move on, has allowed me to enjoy the hobby again.   :)

I usually end my often wordy log with "thanks for the fun" followed by their cacher name too.

This about sums it up for me. I try to find caches i think i will like. Only thing is, those caches are few and very far between. Caching activity in our area is very slow right now and of the few caches placed in the last year, all look to have been easy park and grab type caches.

And like you, my logs used to be more than just a sentence or two. I made many day long caching trips with friends that like finding as many as they could. I'd come home dreading having to log all the days caches, which resulted in my logs getting shorter and shorter. Not proud of it, but i even resorted to copy and pasting on some of the more monotonous series that we did.:o 

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1 minute ago, CAVinoGal said:

That's just plain sad! 

Not really.  As one who's used to meeting the same group before/after work each day for over twenty years at work, I just don't think an "event" with the same people, same subject, and monthly, is an event worth logging.   If I cared about stats I could write the same cut n paste log each month...

 - That's assuming they'd all meet there if they didn't get that smiley every month...    :D

Sorry, but I can't get myself to say "Of all the walmart parking lot hides I've ever found, yours was the best!", "The No Trespassing sign directly in front of GZ was a nice touch", or  " As I was doing the bee dance to finally find this guard rail hide 40' away, actual bees were dancing with me.  What fun!"    ;) 

When GZ turns out not to be as described, I'm comfortable not logging it.   :)

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5 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

As one who's used to meeting the same group before/after work each day for over twenty years at work, I just don't think an "event" with the same people, same subject, and monthly, is an event worth logging.

I can't help wondering then why you take the time to attend.

I attend very few events but if I couldn't imagine being able to write anything nice about the once I do attend I just wouldn't go.

ETA - this is not a criticism, I just find it unusual.

Edited by Team Microdot
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12 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Sorry, but I can't get myself to say "Of all the walmart parking lot hides I've ever found, yours was the best!", "The No Trespassing sign directly in front of GZ was a nice touch", or  " As I was doing the bee dance to finally find this guard rail hide 40' away, actual bees were dancing with me.  What fun!"    ;) 

I like those logs.  I have used the walmart one a time or two.  when I feel like I have time and I want to mess with someone in particular... I might just go on a random log like that.  sometimes I can sneak a hint in too when it looks like the community is having a difficult time finding a low rated cache.

 

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Just now, Team Microdot said:

I can't help wondering then why you take the time to attend.

I attend very few events but if I couldn't imagine being able to write anything nice about the once I do attend I just wouldn't go.

Just like work, I attend because many are friends at simple meet n greets.  Few new people attend most.   I don't need a "reward" to see friends, and most know me well enough that a "As usual, had a great time with the gang today..."  log isn't me.   Pretty simple.  You okay now?  :)

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1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

Yes, that's more to the point, being able to find more caches I enjoy.

Caches with active owners that are in reasonably good shape, in pleasant locations, accurate size, accurate D/T ratings, with owners who monitor and maintain. These are no longer the norm and are becoming (have become) elusive "gems". 

Either caches are in better shape where I am than where you are, or I'm better at filtering.   I would say at least 80% of the caches I find meet those criteria.   Well, with the exception of accurate size.... I find inaccurate sizes a lot.   But that is only a minor annoyance for me.   

Of the other 20%... half of those I should have been able to predict, but I went looking for it anyway.   The other half was either a good location with a non-maintained mess of a cache, or a hide location I didn't like (and could not tell this from the map).

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1 hour ago, redsox_mark said:

Either caches are in better shape where I am than where you are, or I'm better at filtering.   I would say at least 80% of the caches I find meet those criteria.   

Similar state here as well.  There are a few cachers in my area that have a lot of hides, and they are all properly maintained, and there is some junk mixed in between.  Finding the nicer ones makes the bad not a big deal.  

The one that my pictures are from above has not been seen since November, and it looks like someone was in there organizing and dusting last week.  

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9 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Sorry, but I can't get myself to say "Of all the walmart parking lot hides I've ever found, yours was the best!", "The No Trespassing sign directly in front of GZ was a nice touch", or  " As I was doing the bee dance to finally find this guard rail hide 40' away, actual bees were dancing with me.  What fun!"

It's too bad you can't get yourself to file those logs. As a fellow seeker, it sounds like those logs have just exactly what I need to know about the cache. Why are you keeping that information secret?

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To me, a great cache is one in a great location, preferably one I would not have otherwise found.

The caches I don't like are those with no reason to bring people there.  Hike a couple of kilometers along a path through a forest until you get to a bit of the forest which looks just like every other bit of the forest, except someone has put an ammo can there.  Why?

I'd much rather find an MKH on a guard rail with a great view.

Of course, a decent sized container, well maintained at a great location is best, but location trumps size every time for me.

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That's funny, I'm quite the opposite. I'd enjoy the walk in the woods and the big container; at the great view I'd be thinking "is that the best they can do for a container?", and forget about it.

It's a shame when someone puts out a cache that fails to acknowledge something interesting in the area - https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/83701713/john-renie being a case in point, local church cache doesn't mention this gem, I think the CO's thought ooh there's a church better chuck down a film pot by the gatepost and not really researched what was of interest in the area. Conversely when I did a church micro at Malmesbury Abbey (Wiltshire, UK) which involved researching the grave of the 1st person in England to be mauled to death by a tiger, I was delighted to have something so bizarre brought to my attention, that I might otherwise have missed.

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I want it all. A nice cache container both in a good spot in the forest and at the nice view by the guardrail. I want the cache container to be the icing on the cake. 

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It may not be dead but it seems it's being killed. While maintaining my database I noticed a series of caches with 500+ favorites each (and having seen the CO's work before I'm sure they were well worth it) being archived by "Geocaching HQ admin", locking the listing in the process. These were not recently places caches and there is nothing in the logs that even hints to problems which makes this very strange.

Oh well, someone will come around and throw some P&G micros around this new freed up space :ph34r:

 

 

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1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

I want it all. A nice cache container both in a good spot in the forest and at the nice view by the guardrail. I want the cache container to be the icing on the cake. 

I'm not greedy but i do want a cache to have something going for it than just another chance at upping smiley count. An interesting location, a nice view, a site that has some history behind it. A cache that is somewhat challenging to get to or retrieve. And/or, a weatherproof container that does not produce soggy contents when opened, maybe one that is unique or uniquely hidden/camouflaged.

I don't expect to find a cache that incorporates all these things but it is nice when a cache has at least one. Unfortunately, most include none of the above.:(

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41 minutes ago, Mudfrog said:

And/or, a weatherproof container that does not produce soggy contents when opened,

There is no such thing as a weatherproof container.  Without regular maintenance even an ammo can will succumb to the elements.

Almost any container can be used as a cache container "if" it's placed and maintained properly.

Sadly, some of biggest issues Groundspeak faces (or chooses not to face) are dead (missing) caches and ill maintained caches.  A proactive approach to these two issues would go a long way in keeping people in the game.

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11 minutes ago, badlands said:

There is no such thing as a weatherproof container.  Without regular maintenance even an ammo can will succumb to the elements.

Almost any container can be used as a cache container "if" it's placed and maintained properly.

Sadly, some of biggest issues Groundspeak faces (or chooses not to face) are dead (missing) caches and ill maintained caches.  A proactive approach to these two issues would go a long way in keeping people in the game.

I thought the CHS was developed to try and address these very issues?

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1 minute ago, justintim1999 said:

I thought the CHS was developed to try and address these very issues?

The CHS by itself is toothless and clawless.

It isn't pro-active, it's re-active - and it needs to be fed by real-life people out in the field.

 

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22 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

I thought the CHS was developed to try and address these very issues?

An automated system with the rules clearly explained would help.

Imagine for example if the proximity rules were defined like the CHS.  Your cache cannot be published because it's too close to another cache.  No we won't tell you how close is too close, it's just too close in our opinion.  Try again and we'll let you know if it's okay or not.  Trust us, we have rules, we're just not going to tell you what they are ..... and by the way, they are different for different people and different reviewers apply them differently.

Simplify the rules.
Explain the rules.
Take the mystery out of it.

Example: 4 DNF's on different dates - automatically disabled after a 7 day grace period  (not suggesting this as a rule, but as something clearly defined).

Edited by badlands
typo

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27 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

The CHS by itself is toothless and clawless.

It isn't pro-active, it's re-active - and it needs to be fed by real-life people out in the field.

 

Well we know that's not true unless the reviewers that have endorsed it are lying.  From what I've heard it is a valuable tool in helping reviewers identify "bad" caches.   I agree it relies on information provided by every day cachers but to say that GS has not been pro active isn't true.    

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1 minute ago, justintim1999 said:
33 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

The CHS by itself is toothless and clawless.

It isn't pro-active, it's re-active - and it needs to be fed by real-life people out in the field.

 

Well we know that's not true unless the reviewers that have endorsed it are lying.  From what I've heard it is a valuable tool in helping reviewers identify "bad" caches.   I agree it relies on information provided by every day cachers but to say that GS has not been pro active isn't true.    

Can you explain, for the viewers at home, how the CHS deals with caches where there's zero information provided by real-life people out in the field? :wub:

 

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22 minutes ago, badlands said:

An automated system with the rules clearly explained would help.

Imagine for example if the proximity rules were defined like the CHS.  Your cache cannot be published because it's too close to another cache.  No we won't tell you how close is too close, it's just too close in our opinion.  Try again and we'll let you know if it's okay or not.  Trust us, we have rules, we're just not going to tell you what they are ..... and by the way, they are different for different people and different reviewers apply them differently.

Simplify the rules.
Explain the rules.
Take the mystery out of it.

Example: 4 DNF's on different dates - automatically disabled after a 7 day grace period  (not suggesting this as a rule, but as something clearly defined).

Isn't there a tool that identifies cache proximity?    I thought I saw something with radius circles to help cachers when placing a cache.   I also believe that one reviewer explained the process of how they determine distance between caches.  If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) it's a tool anyone can use.    The distance is 528 feet and is stated for all to see.   If your within 528 feet your too close.   I had a cache location that was 521 feet from another cache.  Guess what?  It didn't get published.   I learned two things that day.   First,  528 feet is 528 feet.  Second,  it's no use arguing with a reviewer over a guideline issue.

Oh, and my reviewer told me exactly what they showed as a distance so I didn't have to guess.

As far as DNF's go,  we've had lengthily conversations regarding what exactly dose a DNF mean and if and how they should be counted toward determining if a cache needs maintenance.    DNF's can mean different things for different caches.   3 DNF's on a high D/T cache may not mean as much as 3 on a 1/1 park and grab.

How do you determine an exact number?   I don't think you can and that's why there's no concrete number.  A reviewer, at their discretion, can determine what that number is depending on the situation.   I think it almost has to be this way because different areas have different needs and I'm not sure a one size fits everything approach would really work.      

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22 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Can you explain, for the viewers at home, how the CHS deals with caches where there's zero information provided by real-life people out in the field? :wub:

 

Do you have a specific example or is this "lets think up a wild scenario" kind of thing?   Why would a cache have any issues without some sort of log indicating such?   Now I can envision a situation where a land owner contacts GS requesting that a cache be removed and the cache owner isn't responding.  In that case the cache could be disabled or archived with nothing apparently wrong with it

Now back to your regularly scheduled program. 

Edited by justintim1999
I didn't want to but I couldn't help myself.

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1 minute ago, justintim1999 said:
22 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

Can you explain, for the viewers at home, how the CHS deals with caches where there's zero information provided by real-life people out in the field? :wub:

 

Do you have a specific example or is this "lets think up a wild scenario" kind of thing?   Why would a cache have any issues without some sort of log indicating such?   Now I can envision a situation where a land owner contacts GS requesting that a cache be removed and the cache owner isn't responding.  In that case the cache could be disabled or archived with nothing apparently wrong with it.   

No need - we're talking very basic stuff here.

A cache with zero logs.

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1 minute ago, Team Microdot said:

No need - we're talking very basic stuff here.

A cache with zero logs.

I just take issue with the idea that GS just sits back with there feet up on a desk all day eating bonbon's.    I don't have any fundamental disagreement with most things they do because to be honest they don't really effect me all that much.   I'm sure one day they'll enact something that will force me to change the way I do things and when that day comes I'll deal with it.  Most of the things I see are an attempt to try and make the game better in one way or another.   

Some say they don't do enough and other say they're too involved. 

Who's right?     

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4 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

I just take issue with the idea that GS just sits back with there feet up on a desk all day eating bonbon's.    I don't have any fundamental disagreement with most things they do because to be honest they don't really effect me all that much.   I'm sure one day they'll enact something that will force me to change the way I do things and when that day comes I'll deal with it.  Most of the things I see are an attempt to try and make the game better in one way or another.   

Some say they don't do enough and other say they're too involved. 

Who's right?     

None of that entered my thought process.

I was just trying to demonstrate that the CHS, in and of itself, is re-active rather than pro-active.

I used to be somewhat pro-active but it proved to be so unwelcome and undervalued by all concerned that I no longer bother. I just get my smiley and move on ^_^

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24 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

None of that entered my thought process.

I was just trying to demonstrate that the CHS, in and of itself, is re-active rather than pro-active.

I used to be somewhat pro-active but it proved to be so unwelcome and undervalued by all concerned that I no longer bother. I just get my smiley and move on ^_^

It was designed to be re-active.  If it were pro-active it would be disabling caches left and right without the benefit of human intervention.    Agree with the CHS or not it is  an example of how GS is actively trying to make the game better.  

I find it hard to believe you'd be bullied or intimidated into changing how you cache.

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10 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

It was designed to be re-active.  If it were pro-active it would be disabling caches left and right without the benefit of human intervention.    Agree with the CHS or not it is  an example of how GS is actively trying to make the game better.  

I find it hard to believe you'd be bullied or intimidated into changing how you cache.

I've had grief for years and recently the final straw was the lack of support.

The only responses I've ever had to working at removing junky, abandoned or inappropriate caches from the map have been negative ones. Some of them incredibly negative.

The number of positive / supportive comments I've received amounts to precisely zero.

Not sure it amounts to bullying but it's certainly reached the point where I CBA any more.

 

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2 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I've had grief for years and recently the final straw was the lack of support.

The only responses I've ever had to working at removing junky, abandoned or inappropriate caches from the map have been negative ones. Some of them incredibly negative.

The number of positive / supportive comments I've received amounts to precisely zero.

Not sure it amounts to bullying but it's certainly reached the point where I CBA any more.

 

I don't want to turn this into a public Q & A but were these caches you simply found and posted NM's on and just watched them from there?   Or were you actively searching for caches that had issues and pushing for them to be removed?

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1 hour ago, justintim1999 said:

Why would a cache have any issues without some sort of log indicating such?  

In this area, where FTF's are typically claimed within minutes, lack of any logs can, and often do, indicate an issue with a cache.

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4 minutes ago, justintim1999 said:

I don't want to turn this into a public Q & A but were these caches you simply found and posted NM's on and just watched them from there?   Or were you actively searching for caches that had issues and pushing for them to be removed?

What difference does it make?

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1 hour ago, justintim1999 said:

Isn't there a tool that identifies cache proximity?    I thought I saw something with radius circles to help cachers when placing a cache.

GME browser extension allows addition of proximity circles, defaulting to .1 miles/161m. Very useful with dynamic radius entry.  Geosphere on iPhone has a toggleable map layer to show proximity circles on all physical waypoints/caches.  Other than those two I use regularly, not sure.

 

11 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I've had grief for years and recently the final straw was the lack of support.

The only responses I've ever had to working at removing junky, abandoned or inappropriate caches from the map have been negative ones. Some of them incredibly negative.

The number of positive / supportive comments I've received amounts to precisely zero.

Since others seem to have more positive results, to me that implies either
A] You live in a very depressing/unappealing area for geocaching and community
B] Your methods aren't prompting much positivity

 

6 minutes ago, badlands said:

In this area, where FTF's are typically claimed within minutes, lack of any logs can, and often do, indicate an issue with a cache

Agree with this. I wonder sometimes in my area why a cache (especially low rated) goes unfound for even a day. No note, no find, no dnf. Very suspicious. Most FTFers will post something.  I tend to find that IF they/we do search and yet post nothing, it typically means uncertainty as to whether the cache is or isn't there (and might be waiting for another visitor or a 2nd opinion). But usually people won't hesitate to post their log. Notes are more common now because people have been given grief for not posting their log immediately (even ASAP is subjective - as I was lambasted one time for posting my find a couple of hours afterwards since I was on the road; and someone else went for the FTF, furious they wasted their time), but want their finds logs in order and may have a few prior finds to log first.

Edited by thebruce0
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3 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I've had grief for years and recently the final straw was the lack of support.

The only responses I've ever had to working at removing junky, abandoned or inappropriate caches from the map have been negative ones. Some of them incredibly negative.

The number of positive / supportive comments I've received amounts to precisely zero.

Not sure it amounts to bullying but it's certainly reached the point where I CBA any more.

 

Yes. This is true. No pats on the back for the cachers willing to admit they post NAs. Not in the logs, not in the forums, and I expect not at events either.  In some areas (thankfully not mine), they even get pushback from reviewers.

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Just now, L0ne.R said:
13 minutes ago, Team Microdot said:

I've had grief for years and recently the final straw was the lack of support.

The only responses I've ever had to working at removing junky, abandoned or inappropriate caches from the map have been negative ones. Some of them incredibly negative.

The number of positive / supportive comments I've received amounts to precisely zero.

Not sure it amounts to bullying but it's certainly reached the point where I CBA any more.

 

Yes. This is true. No pats on the back for the cachers willing to admit they post NAs. Not in the logs, not in the forums, and I expect not at events either.  In some areas (thankfully not mine), they even get pushback from reviewers.

Yep.

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