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CX15

CO deleted EC log because "answers not e-mailed"

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That would be a way to find out if you're on someone's ignore list :P Find one of their Earthcaches, answer via MC, and if they say they didn't get the email and you tell them you used the MC, then that's a step towards discovering if they ignored you :P.

 

I have dozens of people on my ignore list. If one of them ever found one of my Earthcaches I would probably just let the log stand without acknowledging them in any way.

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...Same with clicking "Send Email". Or "Send Message". Or "Post Log".

I like to presume stuff works as it's intended until it's shown not to and is intentionally or unavoidably not fixed. For all intents and purposes, email notifications and the MC work as intended.

 

No, it#s not like the other examples as for the MC what comes in additionally is the default setting of the MC notification which does not what those who do not use the MC themselves would expect. It needs some proactive change of the settings (at least this used to be the case - I have not checked whether that's still the case) to get notified about every message.

AFAIK, the default is to send email notification with MC messages.

If it's not, then GS shot themselves in the foot by allowing MC messages as a legitimate method to send answers for EC's and Virtuals, if the default is no email notification as well as providing the ability to ignore accounts.

So I stand by my point, unless the default is not to send email notifications. (the ability to turn off email copies doesn't count - that then becomes the CO's problem given how they must be able to accept answer submissions)

 

I'll favour the MC because of its other benefits and record-keeping. If there's an issue, I'll deal with it when it arises. The MC handles two birds with one stone.

That's of course your right. I prefer...

Great. I wasn't saying you were wrong, just explaining why I think it's fine to use the MC, per the OP, and why if there's an issue I'd recommend just moving on to option and avoid the hassle. I'm just answering how I'd avoid and/or deal with issues such as those raised by the OP.

 

No one has to do the same as me. But, given that COs have to accept MC and Email submissions, and the MC sends email notifications making it effectively as useful as clicking "Send Email", I've personally decided to favour the MC for submitting answers over 'Send Email', dealing with any rare technical failures if and when they may appear; and that's why I recommend it.

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I have dozens of people on my ignore list. If one of them ever found one of my Earthcaches I would probably just let the log stand without acknowledging them in any way.

heh, better to not give away the fact that they're ignored ;P

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I have dozens of people on my ignore list. If one of them ever found one of my Earthcaches I would probably just let the log stand without acknowledging them in any way.

heh, better to not give away the fact that they're ignored ;P

 

Just better to avoid communication with someone who earned their place on the list to begin with. Chances are, they're not going to cheat on the Earthcache.

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AFAIK, the default is to send email notification with MC messages.

The default setting is to send MC emails, but with the sub-setting "Only send me a notification after 30 minutes of inactivity in a conversation."

MCemails.PNG

I'd hope that a CO would be willing to wait more than 30 minutes before pulling the trigger on deleting a log, so even this default setting shouldn't be a problem.

 

To me, this whole thing seems to be the result of a petulant CO that refuses to use the MC and is under the misguided impression that they can require EC answers be sent by email. If they would just go on the website and find the OP's conversation in the MC, I'm sure the correct answers are sitting there waiting for them.

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AFAIK, the default is to send email notification with MC messages.

The default setting is to send MC emails, but with the sub-setting "Only send me a notification after 30 minutes of inactivity in a conversation."

MCemails.PNG

I'd hope that a CO would be willing to wait more than 30 minutes before pulling the trigger on deleting a log, so even this default setting shouldn't be a problem.

 

So the default setting is the same as what I had in mind. Thanks for confirming that.

 

Note however that the first set of anwers arrived and that the OP got the reply that something is wrong/missing. Then he send corrected answers and that message did not arrive. That is not an unrealistic setting and if the second message is sent within 30 minutes it will not arrive by e-mail regardless of how long the cache owner waits with the delete.

 

With the default setting one absolutely needs to use the message system itself in such a situation (both to read the message and to reply) while otherwise one does not even need to understand that there is a message system and how it can be used. One simply reads an e-mail and replies to it without probably even realizing that one is communicating with the message system and not replying to an e-mail sent via Groundspeak. For example, it took even me some time to realize that if I reply by e-mail, still my anwers are recorded in the message system (which came as a dissapointment to me and made me decide to often do the extra work required to reply by a new mail and not by replying to the mail which notified me about the message).

 

Do you get the point I tried to make?

 

Of course it also could be that the cache owner just wants to insist on e-mails to be used, but when why would they have replied to the first message?

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Yeah, the notification blackout period for receiving a followup email notification was known long ago (though, I suppose it wasn't mentioned in this thread as a cause for missing the 2nd message).

 

For me, that doesn't change my reasoning for preferring the MC - I retain a copy of what I sent, as it's on record in the MC. IF, for whatever reason, I send another message via the MC, I'm already aware of the potential non-notification period; even so, it's rare I'll ever send another important EC/Virtual answer batch in a message within a half hour (typically it's all in one), let alone have the CO responding and prompting another reply from me, all within that 30 minutes window. And so if for whatever reason a potential followup message isn't received by email, I'll still point to the fact that it's in the message history... then as opposed to using the Email method, I don't have to dig through my emails (provided I didn't uncheck "Send me a copy"), then copy and re-send by email. That would be option B], if really necessary (just do whatever to make sure they get it and avoid the drama).

 

But I still vastly favour the fact that the message content is autometically stored in the MC history, and the CO (who should accept that method) can just open the website, find my name in the inbox, and there it is.

 

And no cezanne, what I inferred from you in the comment to which I replied was that you thought the default was set to no email notification for any message, which is not even an option. That's not the same as no notification for followup messages. Even so, I cede I wasn't completely right either, since the default is not email notification for all messages. I do recall now switching it to that for myself, though, when it became an option, only because I like to keep email records =)

 

CX15 - do you remember how long it was since your prior message before you sent the message that the CO claims they didn't receive? If it was within that window, then that's most likely the cause (still doesn't justify them refusing to open their inbox, but whatev). I still say just go with option :P

 

 

Ultimately...

This does mean that if you send answers via MC, the CO will receive the email copy (unless they have you on ignore, afaik). They can reply by email to your MC Inbox. Just keep in mind that if you reply within the notification blackout period, there's a chance (if they have the option toggled, and they refuse to use the MC) that they won't receive your followup MC response via email; so, wait at least 30 minutes before sending another [important] message, to be safe.

Edited by thebruce0
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And no cezanne, what I inferred from you in the comment to which I replied was that you thought the default was set to no email notification for any message,

 

No, I did not think that. I knew what the default was when I changed the default, but I was not sure whether the default is still what it has been back then.

Personally, I would think that choosing the default to send a notification for every message and let cachers change that setting if they feel annoyed would have been the better choice as

there are many cache owners who do not visit the site regularly and who are not up to date with respect to changes but still maintain their caches properly.

 

Your personal approach and preference is perfectly fine. I just tried to point out one possible source for problems caused by the default notification setting. Another source of problems of course comes from the fact that

from time to time various types of notifications do not work at all.

 

In any case it can annoying to keep track of logs for virtuals and ECs when some cachers log finds before having sent answers or correct answers. Some cachers (not the OP) seem to hope that the cache owner will not check or forget about that still answers are missing or will not care at all. So personally I wait with EC and virtual logs if I'm not sure that my answers are correct and I always send answers before I log.

Edited by cezanne
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In any case it can annoying to keep track of logs for virtuals and ECs when some cachers log finds before having sent answers or correct answers. Some cachers (not the OP) seem to hope that the cache owner will not check or forget about that still answers are missing or will not care at all. So personally I wait with EC and virtual logs if I'm not sure that my answers are correct and I always send answers before I log.

I've seen some COs "require" submission before posting the Find log. I don't believe that's enforceable by GS rules, but the worst I've had was a CO deleting my EC Find log without warning the day after a long road trip before I'd even had a chance to sit down and go over additional required submissions. Sometimes it's easier to do all the finds in one sitting, than to jump back and forth between research/composition and remembering the geocaching experience... That CO was not too pleasant after getting back to him; assuming that it was somehow standard required practice to send info before logging. Granted, it likely happens all the time to him, so he's regularly annoyed at how many people log before submitted answers =P Nonetheless, he wasn't very graceful in his dealing with my order of logging.

 

Owning a couple of ECs myself, I'm of the crowd that chooses to respond to submissions only if there's a problem, or something I'd like to say about the finder's log. No reply means all is well. But I do my best to track who logs the find and doesn't submit any answers within say a week. Or if the log looks like someone who doesn't understand what an EC is (or just a relatively geocaching newbie), I'll send a nice message informing of the requirements, and hoping that if they didn't get the required answers on the visit (or can't come up with them), that they'd enjoy another trip to gather said info.

 

But, there are very strict EC COs out there. Is it worth the time to engage in (even minor) conflicts? enh... IMO, not unless the CO isn't doing what they are supposed to do (as that can perpetuate problems for other users); even then let Appeals deal with it if it can't be resolved in one or two communications. :)

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[...]

Is the Messaging System an official form of communication for submitting EC answers?

Yes.

Or can the CO insist on e-mails?

Definitely not.

 

Hans

Think your answers are mixed. Can't make a CO use Message System. I know many cachers who hate that system and never check the messages. I sometimes hate it too. Messages get out of order and I can't tell which is recent and which is not.

Maybe the CO prefers keeping the emails in a file. Message System the messages get buried.

Edited by jellis
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[...]

Is the Messaging System an official form of communication for submitting EC answers?

Yes.

Or can the CO insist on e-mails?

Definitely not.

 

Hans

Think your answers are mixed. Can't make a CO use Message System. I know many cachers who hate that system and never check the messages. I sometimes hate it too. Messages get out of order and I can't tell which is recent and which is not.

Maybe the CO prefers keeping the emails in a file. Message System the messages get buried.

 

For Earthcaches, COs are required to accept responses through email or MC. A CO who chooses not to use the MC is not allowed to arbitrarily delete logs because they don't like the medium.

 

I strongly dislike the MC and do not answer messages sent through it. Last time I glanced at it to check an Earthcache response, there were messages I have not read and will never respond to. There is a note on my profile that tells people I don't like it. I don't get notifications on it. I don't think I even get the little yellow dot anymore.

 

But that doesn't mean I can delete logs on Earthcaches. I have to accept responses submitted through it. When I see a log and didn't get an email, I assume the response is languishing in the MC and I check.

Edited by narcissa
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Thanks for all the interaction and advice folks! I think the question has been thoroughly answered at this point, and I'm going to close the thread before it reaches redundancy.

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In any case it can annoying to keep track of logs for virtuals and ECs when some cachers log finds before having sent answers or correct answers. Some cachers (not the OP) seem to hope that the cache owner will not check or forget about that still answers are missing or will not care at all. So personally I wait with EC and virtual logs if I'm not sure that my answers are correct and I always send answers before I log.

I've seen some COs "require" submission before posting the Find log. I don't believe that's enforceable by GS rules, but the worst I've had was a CO deleting my EC Find log without warning the day after a long road trip before I'd even had a chance to sit down and go over additional required submissions. Sometimes it's easier to do all the finds in one sitting, than to jump back and forth between research/composition and remembering the geocaching experience... That CO was not too pleasant after getting back to him; assuming that it was somehow standard required practice to send info before logging. Granted, it likely happens all the time to him, so he's regularly annoyed at how many people log before submitted answers =P Nonetheless, he wasn't very graceful in his dealing with my order of logging.

 

 

Groundspeak lets you log a virtual or earthcache without waiting for confirmation from the owner, but to me the cache is not found until the answers are sent. I do not log a find until I have completed the logging tasks - whether it be signing the log, verified that I completed the challenge, or submitted the logging answers to a virtual or earthcache. This seems to be in keeping with Groundspeak's explanation:

 

In order to claim a find on the geocache, the seeker must send their answers to the questions, to the cache owner, either by email or Message Center. For EarthCaches and Virtual Caches, you may also log your find on-line without waiting for an answer from the cache owner.

 

In keeping with this, I request people who find my earthcaches to send answers before logging, preferably using email. I used to think that submitting answers concurrently with a log was so clear that I should not have to spell it out, but time proved me wrong. If I do not get an answer through one means or the other, I will wait a couple of days, send the cacher an email asking for the answers and then wait a day or two after that before taking any actiion. Not receving answers, then, makes things more complicated, particularly if I am busy or traveling and there are several finds without the answers. It's the main reason why I stopped creating earthcaches.

 

I believe that if you have time to write a found log, you have time to communicate with me, when your observations might be fresher. If you don't have time to do the latter, please write a note describing your experience and change it to a find when you have more time.

 

I have considered taking an approach similar to the owner you describe, although perhaps giving it two days - but so far I believe its friendlier to take the approach I take, just like its friendlier to send an answer first. Although the friendly approach is the one I am taking, when I receive more one log without an answer, I am tempted to take the easy way.

 

As a note even further to the side, if the answers are fine, I generally send a "thank you" as long as there is a direct means to reply - such as an email with a return address. Every once in a while I will write something longer, but I once had a finder berate me for not giving a detailed response to their log. You can't please everyone. But if you can make things easier for someone, I encourage you to do it.

Edited by geodarts
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I believe that if you have time to write a found log, you have time to communicate with me, when your observations might be fresher. If you don't have time to do the latter, please write a note describing your experience and change it to a find when you have more time.

While that's all well and good, it's not always the case, and this is why GS doesn't enforce submit-then-log. The best you can do (as it seems you understand) is ask that people do that, which is completely understandable! :)

 

As an EC finder, I do my best to have answers submitted within 1-2 days, absolute max. On the odd occasion I've forgotten, and it's much appreciated that the CO contacts with a reminder than answers haven't been sent, and when that's happened they've been sent within the hour.

 

On the CO side - it seems proper for finders to submit answers and then log, and if not in that order then simultaneously, or note-then-find as you say.

On the finder side - it seems proper to presume error rather than ill and let a log stand with a friendly reminder message to submit answers.

If both sides do their best to respect the Earthcache concept and the human on the receiving end, then everyone can be happy :) (Until someone consciously breaks a guideline, then someone will likely have to deal with TPTB unless the other person shrugs it off =P)

 

ETA: Also *oops* looks like the thread wasn't locked :)

Edited by thebruce0
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I request people who find my earthcaches to send answers before logging, preferably using email.

I have my answers ready before posting the log. Several times I didn't feel like jumping through all the hoops, thus didn't log a Find. On this one, I made a Note Log because the suggested info sign was unreadable (all the vinyl lettering was curled up).

 

But if email servers are messed up and MC is flakey at the time of posting logs, how does the cacher know there's an issue? When the log gets deleted, and there's no notice received (in this example, email servers are messed up and MC is flakey), the cacher must notice the count has changed and remember that particular EC once had a log. It occurs to me that since I've never received a "Log Deteted" email from an Earthcache, there could be missing logs and I must remember what caches on which the missing logs once were, if I am to correct the situation. I've never seen an online posted record of what happened, why a log was deleted (which would have been handy for the OP). And is there a posted notice of which logs are still in need of answers?

Edited by kunarion
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During our recent 4 week trip I prepared the text for EC answers, opened cachepages, went to CO's profile and "sent email" (not MC) for every found EC/virtual of that day then went back to GDAK, wrote logs and uploaded via API max time between sending answers and online log was less than 1 hour. I never wait for confirmation as most CO's don't reply anyway and I don't want to mess up my found order or cache to cache distance.

The requested pictures (optional, I know) were all done after our return as I don't want to use the limited capabilities of my tablet to work on the DSLR photographs.

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