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Groundspeak's pricing and how it's probably killing geocaching in Greece


kourampies

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Before going into the "main issue", let me put my two cents regarding Groundspeak's direction lately.

With all the limitations imposed on the API and official mobile app, essentially people are forced to either pay or leave. Don't give me that "We used to print pages without a smartphone 10 years ago" lecture, there's no need to torture users, and waste time and resources since the technology is here, and can make life easier for everyone, including Groundspeak.

 

No one has to give anything for free, but geocaching.com can be quite profitable without any subscriptions. Ads, trackables, donations, I'm sure there could be enough money made not only to sustain the site, but to make a good profit too.

Don't forget that Geocaching and geocaching.com exists solely due to users giving time and money for this hobby. Even the reviewers/moderators are volunteers. It's seems extremely greedy to try to ask for money on top.

 

Premium memberships would not be a bad idea if they offered something really useful, but I'm not seeing something extremely innovative, something that causes extreme server load or anything else justifying a mandatory fee. Even the pictures are displayed on dimensions ridiculously small for today's standards.

 

Let's get into Greece now.

Greece is a country full of beautiful places, landscapes, nature, monuments, and perfect hiding locations. Pretty much everyone is within less than a hour away from non urban places ideal for Geocaching. Still, the vast majority of the caches are located in Athens, a decaying huge city, awful for residents or visitors. No one outside of Athens would make a trip there for Geocaching.

I live in the 3rd biggest city of Greece, and there are less than 50 caches that I can do on a single day trip. Even if I traveled to other locations within the country, without even considering the big costs for fuel, hotels, and my time, there are only a few hundreds outside Athens.

 

A big reason why the situation is like that is that Greeks were traditionally technologically illiterate on the 00s, but this is changing on the smartphone era. But instead of helping users with a good smartphone app, Groundspeak is practically banning them from the sport. Without trying, and enjoying it, noone will pay for a subscription, even if they had the money (which I will explain next). Even if geocaching.com went free now, it would need a "kickstart" of some kind, in order to get some more caches hidden and maintained in Greece.

 

So lets get into the money issue. The premium subscription is 30$/€. Already, Europeans are paying more. Groundspeak claims that it's due to added VAT, but it discloses no VAT numbers and gives no VAT invoice. For anyone that has researched this issue a little bit, its obvious they are blatantly lying.

 

Then, lets get into life costs. Average monthly wage on the US: 5000$. Unemployment is not so high, and stuff like goverment assistance exists. Average monthly wage on Greece: Around 1000$ last time it was officially researched, and for full time employees. But, around 30% of the people are unemployed, and almost half the work force is working part time, so the average monthly wage is much closer to 500$.

 

Other than that, fuel cost: US 0.66$/l vs Greece 1.62$/l. So as you can understand 30€ hurts, a lot.

 

Also, Greeks (and I guess other Europeans too) are not used to the subscription model and cards like the US. People rarely use cards online to this day, and never on a subscription model since most cards are debit and not credit.

 

So we are trapped in a vicious cycle of no new caches hidden (since most are hidden by tourists, if they can overcome the away from home limitation), and there's no one to find them and maintain them. The few Greeks trying might lose interest since there are no more caches to find and noone to find their hides. And to top on that newcomers have to resort on using unofficial, more tech savvy apps like c:geo, and trying to circumvent Groundspeak's limitations.

 

What are your opinions on this and what may be done in order to save the situation?

Edited by kourampies
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I don't think we should be discussing how countries deal with their economic situations in a geocaching forum, but if it's that bad, all leisure hobbies are probably hurting...

 

Though a pm, I still load caches singly to a GPSr.

A basic member shouldn't have problems doing that, as there's no restriction (other than pmo) if they use a GPSr on site.

Most apps today allow caches to be found without a fee.

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So lets get into the money issue. The premium subscription is 30$/€. Already, Europeans are paying more. Groundspeak claims that it's due to added VAT, but it discloses no VAT numbers and gives no VAT invoice. For anyone that has researched this issue a little bit, its obvious they are blatantly lying.

The official thread for complaining about pricing in euros (which has quieted down a bit now that the euro is nearly 1:1 with the dollar), as well as accusing Groundspeak of committing tax fraud despite zero evidence to support the claim, is here.

 

No one outside of Athens would make a trip there for Geocaching.

 

I did. We managed to see it snow in Athens.

Edited by hzoi
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newcomers have to resort on using unofficial, more tech savvy apps

Actually, most all of the non-Groundspeak caching apps are official, or let's say "officially approved", as they use the API in agreement with Groundspeak. (The only notable exception being the one app you did mention.) And none of those apps, as far as I know, has the extra limitations Groundspeak imposed on their own app in a not-so-subtle attempt to shove newcomers into an immediate Premium purchase.

 

So the trick is, how do you let people know there are other apps besides the upsell-focused default one? I doubt Groundspeak will point them out...

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newcomers have to resort on using unofficial, more tech savvy apps

Actually, most all of the non-Groundspeak caching apps are official, or let's say "officially approved", as they use the API in agreement with Groundspeak. (The only notable exception being the one app you did mention.) And none of those apps, as far as I know, has the extra limitations Groundspeak imposed on their own app in a not-so-subtle attempt to shove newcomers into an immediate Premium purchase.

 

So the trick is, how do you let people know there are other apps besides the upsell-focused default one? I doubt Groundspeak will point them out...

 

The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me.

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[...]

The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me.

 

That's 21 a week. Two and a half weeks and your homezone ("and there are less than 50 caches that I can do on a single day trip") is cleared.unsure.gif

 

Hans

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[...]

The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me.

 

That's 21 a week. Two and a half weeks and your homezone ("and there are less than 50 caches that I can do on a single day trip") is cleared.unsure.gif

 

Hans

 

It don't think it does stack up if unused. 3 caches each every 24 hours, if it gets unused, tough luck. I don't think you are implying people should do daily trips for 3 caches each time, with fuel cost alone for each trip being more than 20 euros?

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Though a pm, I still load caches singly to a GPSr.

A basic member shouldn't have problems doing that, as there's no restriction (other than pmo) if they use a GPSr on site.

 

In a country/scenario where 30€ a year and technological illiteracy are issues, standalone GPS units are both extremely rare and expensive for most people. The cheapest option is the Garmin eTrex 10 at 105 euros, and after that chaos ensues. Also I don't think its easier than a working smartphone app for a begginer.

Edited by kourampies
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[...]I don't think you are implying people should do daily trips for 3 caches each time, with fuel cost alone for each trip being more than 20 euros?

 

No. You might download those three caches per day and collect them for your weekend trip. And nobody is forcing you to go by car. Use a bike instead (or a donkey where you live).unsure.gif

 

Hans

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So lets get into the money issue. The premium subscription is 30$/€. Already, Europeans are paying more. Groundspeak claims that it's due to added VAT, but it discloses no VAT numbers and gives no VAT invoice. For anyone that has researched this issue a little bit, its obvious they are blatantly lying.

I see you've bought into the "price discrimination" myth. It's not Groundspeak's fault that you live in a country that charges 23% VAT, payable by foreign providers of online/digital services. Once you back out the VAT, at current exchange rates a US geocacher pays more than $3.00 more per year for their premium membership than a Greek geocacher.

 

You should "research this issue a little bit" to become familiar with the obligations of a US online service provider to give VAT invoices or disclose its VAT registration number. You should also research the history of the pricing change for the EU, which happened in 2013. Groundspeak had to work with the EU taxing authorities to make up for the fact that no VAT had been paid since 2003 when it was first legally required. They settled the ten years of arrearages by making a payment out-of-pocket.

 

So, you owe US geocachers a thank-you (at least this year and until the exchange rates change) for subsidizing EU geocachers' premium memberships. And, anyone in the EU who's been a premium member since before 2013 owes Groundspeak a thank-you for making good on the VAT arrearages without passing along that cost to the relevant customers.

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[...]I don't think you are implying people should do daily trips for 3 caches each time, with fuel cost alone for each trip being more than 20 euros?

 

No. You might download those three caches per day and collect them for your weekend trip. And nobody is forcing you to go by car. Use a bike instead (or a donkey where you live).unsure.gif

 

Hans

 

Thank you for clearly and vividly pointing out what is going wrong within the geocaching society and for being the live examples of why people would be discouraged in the near future to join your elitist community. Now excuse me, I have to go feed my donkey.

 

So lets get into the money issue. The premium subscription is 30$/€. Already, Europeans are paying more. Groundspeak claims that it's due to added VAT, but it discloses no VAT numbers and gives no VAT invoice. For anyone that has researched this issue a little bit, its obvious they are blatantly lying.

I see you've bought into the "price discrimination" myth. It's not Groundspeak's fault that you live in a country that charges 23% VAT, payable by foreign providers of online/digital services. Once you back out the VAT, at current exchange rates a US geocacher pays more than $3.00 more per year for their premium membership than a Greek geocacher.

 

You should "research this issue a little bit" to become familiar with the obligations of a US online service provider to give VAT invoices or disclose its VAT registration number. You should also research the history of the pricing change for the EU, which happened in 2013. Groundspeak had to work with the EU taxing authorities to make up for the fact that no VAT had been paid since 2003 when it was first legally required. They settled the ten years of arrearages by making a payment out-of-pocket.

 

So, you owe US geocachers a thank-you (at least this year and until the exchange rates change) for subsidizing EU geocachers' premium memberships. And, anyone in the EU who's been a premium member since before 2013 owes Groundspeak a thank-you for making good on the VAT arrearages without passing along that cost to the relevant customers.

 

I've never paid VAT to an US based business for a service. As long as no VAT number is disclosed, and no legal VAT invoice is provided to whoever pays for a subscription (according to numerous testimonies on the relevant thread, no personal experience), there's no VAT being paid. It is you who are "buying" into myths.

Edited by kourampies
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Has a geocaching account (presumably free) for eight years.

 

Manages to find 50 caches in all that time.

 

Has placed six very recently.

 

If this is typical of the profile of geocaching enthusiasts in your geographical area I'd say the root of your problem isn't the fact that Groundspeak charges a measly annual fee for premium membership.

 

In fact I'd go as far as to say that the problem you perceive in your geographical area has nothing whatsoever to do with Groundspeak charging a measly annual fee for premium membership.

 

If you're at all serious about doing something useful about the issue you claim to be so passionate about your time would be better spent in ways other than criticising Groundspeak.

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And, anyone in the EU who's been a premium member since before 2013 owes Groundspeak a thank-you for making good on the VAT arrearages without passing along that cost to the relevant customers.

 

I think I've probably repaid any debt I might owe to Groundspeak in that regard several times over by setting up and maintaining numerous geocaches during my use of their website :)

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As long as no VAT number is disclosed, and no legal VAT invoice is provided to whoever pays for a subscription (according to numerous testimonies on the relevant thread, no personal experience), there's no VAT being paid. It is you who are "buying" into myths.

At last, we have an attorney who knows EU tax matters. Because clearly you have some case law or statute to back up your statement that Groundspeak is breaking the law by not disclosing a VAT number that EU law makes clear is not a matter of public record.

 

Right?

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As long as no VAT number is disclosed, and no legal VAT invoice is provided to whoever pays for a subscription (according to numerous testimonies on the relevant thread, no personal experience), there's no VAT being paid. It is you who are "buying" into myths.

At last, we have an attorney who knows EU tax matters. Because clearly you have some case law or statute to back up your statement that Groundspeak is breaking the law by not disclosing a VAT number that EU law makes clear is not a matter of public record.

 

Right?

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/vat-invoicing-rules_en#what_information

 

As of today noone in the corresponding thread has claimed that he received a proper VAT invoice. No need to disclose the VAT number to a non customer indeed, but after all those allegations any serious business would voluntary list its VAT number even to non customers. Lots of claims of invoices without VAT though.

Edited by kourampies
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I've never paid VAT to an US based business for a service. As long as no VAT number is disclosed, and no legal VAT invoice is provided to whoever pays for a subscription (according to numerous testimonies on the relevant thread, no personal experience), there's no VAT being paid. It is you who are "buying" into myths.

There are special rules which cover foreign providers of online services to EU residents; these are not covered on a one-page VAT summary like the one you linked to in your subsequent post. My opinion is based on studying the relevant legislation from official sources -- something I was curious to do based on my background. My opinions are colored by my 30+ years of experience as a business attorney specializing in a highly regulated, international business sector. Finally, my opinions are influenced by in-person discussions with Geocaching HQ Lackeys having direct knowledge and involvement in the issue -- though I've taken care not to disclose any details not previously disclosed in public.

 

Readers are welcome to believe whichever myth they choose. :smile:

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Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not a developer and have never worked with the API... but I don't think it limits anyone to three caches a day.

 

https://www.geocachi..._agreement.aspx

 

Premium Member vs. Basic Member Services:

1. Features and Geocaching Data provide through the API shall be available only to authorized geocaching.com account holders with the following limitations which are subject to change at the discretion of Groundspeak:

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day. Prior to viewing the full details for each of the 3 geocache listings, the Basic Member must be notified of this restriction using text supplied by Groundspeak or, in the absence of text supplied by Groundspeak, text which is substantially similar to the text displayed in Exhibit B.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

 

 

APISampleText.pngAPISampleText2.png

Edited by fbingha
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Also, an interesting bit I found on the terms:

 

Terms Applicable to European Residents

 

If you are a resident of the European Economic Area or Switzerland, the following terms shall apply:

 

As our Premium Membership services are available for use immediately after purchase, you agree that you will not be entitled to any cancellation or "cooling off" period with respect to purchases of Premium Membership services.

 

I was considering buying a premium membership and cancelling within a month with a refund, just to see what happens with the VAT invoice, but seems they already "thought" about that :rolleyes:

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Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not a developer and have never worked with the API... but I don't think it limits anyone to three caches a day.

 

https://www.geocachi..._agreement.aspx

 

Premium Member vs. Basic Member Services:

1. Features and Geocaching Data provide through the API shall be available only to authorized geocaching.com account holders with the following limitations which are subject to change at the discretion of Groundspeak:

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day. Prior to viewing the full details for each of the 3 geocache listings, the Basic Member must be notified of this restriction using text supplied by Groundspeak or, in the absence of text supplied by Groundspeak, text which is substantially similar to the text displayed in Exhibit B.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

 

 

APISampleText.pngAPISampleText2.png

 

Thanks for the link. I didn't realize it was that restricted for unpaid memberships. I can see why people find that frustrating.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not a developer and have never worked with the API... but I don't think it limits anyone to three caches a day.

 

https://www.geocachi..._agreement.aspx

Premium Member vs. Basic Member Services:

1. Features and Geocaching Data provide through the API shall be available only to authorized geocaching.com account holders with the following limitations which are subject to change at the discretion of Groundspeak:

a. Basic Members shall be limited to viewing full geocache details for up to 3 Geocaches per day. Prior to viewing the full details for each of the 3 geocache listings, the Basic Member must be notified of this restriction using text supplied by Groundspeak or, in the absence of text supplied by Groundspeak, text which is substantially similar to the text displayed in Exhibit B.

b. Geocache search results for Basic Members shall be limited to Traditional Geocache Listings only.

c. Basic Members may request full geocache details for non-Traditional Geocaches using the GC reference code; however, they will remain subject to the limitation of 3 as set forth in section 1a above.

 

APISampleText.pngAPISampleText2.png

 

Thanks for the link. I didn't realize it was that restricted for unpaid memberships. I can see why people find that frustrating.

But a simple search shows there's few times more than three have been found (on one day) by the OP anyway.

Though "restrictive" to one who's caching for numbers (get what you pay for...), this looks like a non-issue (to me). :)

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But a simple search shows there's few times more than three have been found (on one day) by the OP anyway.

Though "restrictive" to one who's caching for numbers (get what you pay for...), this looks like a non-issue (to me). :)

 

I'm pretty much desktop-web only for geocaching because I'm an old who finds the app scary and confusing, so it seems like a non-issue to me as well at first glance, but this isn't the first time we've heard discussions like this where people cited the price of membership as a major barrier.

 

It's very easy for someone like me to say I'd prefer to pay than see ads, but now that the younger face of the game is almost entirely app-based, maybe we should be talking about these barriers. GPS-enabled phones are so cheap now that we can't even go back to that old canard about other expenses keeping people out of the game.

 

I've always thought that this game was quite democratic in its accessibility but maybe it really isn't.

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But a simple search shows there's few times more than three have been found (on one day) by the OP anyway.

Though "restrictive" to one who's caching for numbers (get what you pay for...), this looks like a non-issue (to me). :)

 

I'm pretty much desktop-web only for geocaching because I'm an old who finds the app scary and confusing, so it seems like a non-issue to me as well at first glance, but this isn't the first time we've heard discussions like this where people cited the price of membership as a major barrier.

 

It's very easy for someone like me to say I'd prefer to pay than see ads, but now that the younger face of the game is almost entirely app-based, maybe we should be talking about these barriers. GPS-enabled phones are so cheap now that we can't even go back to that old canard about other expenses keeping people out of the game.

 

I've always thought that this game was quite democratic in its accessibility but maybe it really isn't.

:)

Not sure what your response has to do with mine, but what I was getting at is, even though the OP said "The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me" in post #6, in reality, there's only a few times they've found more than three in one day.

Therefore, maybe not the great issue implied.

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newcomers have to resort on using unofficial, more tech savvy apps

Actually, most all of the non-Groundspeak caching apps are official, or let's say "officially approved", as they use the API in agreement with Groundspeak. (The only notable exception being the one app you did mention.) And none of those apps, as far as I know, has the extra limitations Groundspeak imposed on their own app in a not-so-subtle attempt to shove newcomers into an immediate Premium purchase.

 

So the trick is, how do you let people know there are other apps besides the upsell-focused default one? I doubt Groundspeak will point them out...

 

The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me.

The 3 cache limit is not a hard limit. You can still get the coordinates, title, size, difficulty/terrain, then link to the web page. It is somewhat more awkward, but not inordinately so when using apps that help with the web page link (e.g. CacheSense for Android).

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The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me.
It is limited to the full details of 3 caches per day. But you can download the basic details (name, GC code, coordinates, size, difficulty, terrain) of many more caches per day.

 

But I've been geocaching for years, and the full details of 3 caches per day would have been sufficient for me except for only a handful of days. And I found hundreds of geocaches before I finally bought a basic GPS device, and before I finally upgraded to premium membership. And I found hundreds more before I finally had a device that didn't require me to enter coordinates by hand.

 

So yeah, this seems like a non-issue to me too.

 

But I'm curious about the cost of smartphone service in Greece, and how that compares with the cost of premium membership.

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But a simple search shows there's few times more than three have been found (on one day) by the OP anyway.

Though "restrictive" to one who's caching for numbers (get what you pay for...), this looks like a non-issue (to me). :)

 

I'm pretty much desktop-web only for geocaching because I'm an old who finds the app scary and confusing, so it seems like a non-issue to me as well at first glance, but this isn't the first time we've heard discussions like this where people cited the price of membership as a major barrier.

 

It's very easy for someone like me to say I'd prefer to pay than see ads, but now that the younger face of the game is almost entirely app-based, maybe we should be talking about these barriers. GPS-enabled phones are so cheap now that we can't even go back to that old canard about other expenses keeping people out of the game.

 

I've always thought that this game was quite democratic in its accessibility but maybe it really isn't.

:)

Not sure what your response has to do with mine, but what I was getting at is, even though the OP said "The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me" in post #6, in reality, there's only a few times they've found more than three in one day.

Therefore, maybe not the great issue implied.

 

It was a riff on the greater implications of these restrictions, which is what the original post is actually about, but my apologies for trying to be on topic.

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I've never paid VAT to an US based business for a service. As long as no VAT number is disclosed, and no legal VAT invoice is provided to whoever pays for a subscription (according to numerous testimonies on the relevant thread, no personal experience), there's no VAT being paid. It is you who are "buying" into myths.

 

If you have never paid VAT to a non-Union business for electronic services, then they are not in compliance with EU law. As discussed at length in the other thread, foreign businesses can register with the non-Union Mini One Stop Shop (MOSS) scheme if they are selling electronic services to EU residents, similar to how businesses within the Union can register for MOSS if they are selling electronic services across borders. This is different than the VAT rules that you cited in a previous post. The vast majority of EU member states, including Greece, do not require VAT invoices for MOSS transactions to individuals.

 

This is not to say, however, that Groundspeak cannot reveal its registration number. The EU commission states that companies may provide more information than is required. Many companies who are registered under MOSS provide this information, although it is also true that many companies who are registered under MOSS do not. I think it's unfortunate that Groundspeak does not make its number public and provide a knowledge base article explaining VAT and the MOSS scheme, but that has more to do with open communication than the law.

 

Because Groundspeak charges an inclusive price for premium membership, some countries in Europe are paying more for its services than others. I have not looked at how Greece compares to other EU members (taking the inclusive price and deducting the differing VAT rates), but it can get complicated rather quickly.

 

The API is limited to 3 caches a day. No terrain/difficulty restrictions, but still, 3 caches a days seems useless to me.

 

You are limited to three caches a day for full information, but the API allows you to download basic information for 10,000 caches a day. There are free apps available for both Android and Apple that make better use of the API than the Groundspeak app and, of course, it is possible to view cache information through a browser.

Edited by geodarts
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What are your opinions on this and what may be done in order to save the situation?

Basic members are limited via the apps, with varying levels of limitations depending on which app. This has already been mentioned in previous posts. Full details vs lite details, GS's app vs 3rd party apps, etc. However, basic members have full access to all non-PMO caches via the browser, and that browser can be accessed via a smartphone. So, it seems like a basic member could use the app to see more than 3 caches per day. If they then want to see full details for one of the 'beyond 3' caches, then they could open that cache via the web browser in their phone. It may seem a bit cumbersome, but I'm not sure how often a cacher would need to do this if the availability of caches is already so sparse.

 

I just read a 2-year old article that says approximately 80% of Greeks access the internet on an almost daily basis and approximately 90% of those use a PC for that access. I'd assume that number has not decreased since then. Considering that, it seems like using the full website to plan a caching trip would not be overly burdensome. Basic members would be able to see all non-PMO caches on a screen and then review the cache pages of as many caches as they'd want to attempt.

 

The OP feels that PM features are not useful, but that does not mean that all PM's do not find value in the PM features. PQ's and instant notifications do exert some load on the servers. Bookmark lists require at least some database storage and maintenance. The OP may not feel that these resources are 'extreme' enough to warrant a fee. My personal opinion is that Groundspeak doesn't need to provide their services without some fee to cover their costs. The price of app and web developers in the Seattle region is not cheap, and there are other employee categories that an international business needs to account for.

 

Is Greece very different, economically, from Portugal? I'm seeing that Portugal has a slightly lower avg monthly wage compared to Greece, yet it has about 10x more caches. 10% of caches in Portugal are PMO, 1% of caches in Greece are PMO. Perhaps Portugal has more caches because it borders a country (Spain) that has many caches, whereas Greece is bordered by countries that also have few caches? I'm not familiar with the travel habits within Europe.

 

I understand that the cost of premium membership may be more burdensome in some countries compared to others, but even within a single country the cost can be more burdensome for some groups of people vs others. I can't imagine the complications that would arise from trying to adjust the cost for each country based on the economic conditions of each country. Do any international online services adjust their cost based on the country?

 

Regarding the comparisons between Greek and American costs. I can't really say much about that, except that I'm pretty sure the average monthly wage is not $5000 ($60k/year) in the US. Not necessarily relevant to this topic, but just wanted to point it out in case readers think that $60k is 'average' in the US. It is not. I did see this website that shows some comparisons, but not sure how accurate it really is.

 

Those are some of my personal opinions.

 

What are your opinions on this and what may be done in order to save the situation?

This seems to be the more interesting portion of the OP. I'm not sure if 'save' is the goal, as that would imply that the hobby was at a particular level and is falling from that level. Is that the situation, or is the situation really that the hobby has never reached a level of popularity in the first place?

 

How to boost geocaching in Greece? I'm not sure. I think there are 2 aspects though: creating new cachers and retaining existing cachers.

Creating new cachers - are there any hiking/walking/biking groups in Greece? Are there any park or community-based recreation organizations? Working with such groups to inform members of those groups about geocaching might be helpful. Hosting events where using the website and app, whether official app or 3rd party app, can be demonstrated might also be helpful. Talking about caches and how/where they can be hidden might help stir some interest and prompt new cachers to hide caches, rather than just finding them.

Retaining existing cachers - there are less than 50 PMO caches in the entire country of Greece, so I'm not sure if the cost of Premium Membership is 'killing' the hobby or that it would drive away existing cachers. Especially if the features offered by premium membership aren't "really useful" anyway. Not sure of the best way to retain existing cachers in a country I'm not familiar with, but perhaps having more events and/or sharing ideas about new cache ideas would be helpful.

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It was a riff on the greater implications of these restrictions, which is what the original post is actually about, but my apologies for trying to be on topic.

I see what you did there. :)

 

I don't think the 3 caches or 10,000 caches day ability of any app has anything to do with the cache situation in Greece. It would have taken non interest in Geocaching for several years to get to the point that the OP describes. Perhaps there is a cultural issue at play. Germany really loves Geocaching and Greece does not get into it.

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It was a riff on the greater implications of these restrictions, which is what the original post is actually about, but my apologies for trying to be on topic.

I don't think the 3 caches or 10,000 caches day ability of any app has anything to do with the cache situation in Greece. It would have taken non interest in Geocaching for several years to get to the point that the OP describes. Perhaps there is a cultural issue at play. Germany really loves Geocaching and Greece does not get into it.

 

Like most things, it's unlikely that there's any single factor that is entirely to blame. But if it's harder for basic members to access geocaches than it was in the past, if only because of the technology shift from desktop web to app, it's worth discussing the impact of that barrier, and also the impact of the price barrier, etc. Not just for Greece, but for the game as a whole. This isn't the first time that the topic of price and complaints about the app restrictions have been suggested as participation barriers. The case of this particular country is interesting but I think these barriers are fairly universal.

 

Germany is obviously an outlier in terms of their enthusiasm for the game. That might be cultural but it is entirely possible that socio-economic factors are at play as well. I would also predict that geocaching is more prevalent in parts of Canada and the US where there is more prosperity and higher adoption of technology.

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Thanks for the link. I didn't realize it was that restricted for unpaid memberships. I can see why people find that frustrating.

 

It might have been easier for people to understand when they had two separate versions of the app; the free trial app and the paid app. The free trial version would let them try some simple geocaching and they could decide if they liked it enough to buy a membership and the paid app. Now it's not so obvious.

Edited by JohnCNA
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Thanks for the link. I didn't realize it was that restricted for unpaid memberships. I can see why people find that frustrating.

 

It might have been easier for people to understand when they had two separate versions of the app; the free trial app and the paid app. The free trial version would let them try some simple geocaching and they could decide if they liked it enough to buy a membership and the paid app. Now it's not so obvious.

I kinda agree.

Guess few noticed the Windows phone app ran in nearly the same way for years as today, with very-limited function for basics, and full function only with a PM (no "paid" app). :)

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I'm stunned by the elitism and bitterness of some people here, but some people tried to contribute to the discussion, so a few more clarifications.

 

Regarding the VAT thing. Off course I trust the official EU site more than some accounting company. The law here is clear: If you don't get a proper VAT invoice, you are not required to pay for the transaction. Not the VAT, the whole transaction. If no one discloses anything, why should I trust Groundspeak or any other company? Anyone can charge +24% and keep the money, since nothing can get checked.

 

Mobile devices are the trend in anything, every site and service for is focusing on mobile apps for the past 5+ years. I think the stats mentioned here are correct, 2/3 or even more of Greeks have access to a computer, but they rarely use them, while they use their smartphones all day long. The cost for a mobile plan is quite cheap, with 10 euros a month you can have a complete plan with talk time, sms, and enough data for all your geocaching needs (and there are loads of WiFi hotspots everywhere, no need to even use a data plan). Especially on a hobby where the smartphone can replace an expensive dedicated device, its obvious that the mobile app will be the main method preferred by new users. The decision to cripple the app to this ridiculous extent is insane. Like I said its blackmailing users to pay or leave, while not even giving them a chance to see if it's worth the money.

 

It's not so much about the specific price, but making geocaching a for-pay only hobby, while it exists solely due to the players, their efforts, and their money already spent on creating and finding caches.

 

Indeed, it's also a cultural thing linked to a big history of technological illiteracy, regardless of pricing and ease of use I doubt geocaching will ever reach Germany's levels of interest in Greece, but with the current circumstances there will definitely be no improvement.

 

I've tried contacting hikers, nature lovers and other similar groups. Ever tried explaining to a group of 40+ year old Greeks how to use a combination of apps, web pages and other trickery in order to circumvent Groundspeak's restrictions, on top of explaining the whole Geocaching concept? It simply doesn't work.

 

Also a very specific example, since people honestly can't understand why money, and lack of caches are an issue.

 

Lets say you live in Patras, like me. 3rd biggest city in Greece, around 400000 people. Let's say you are around 30 years old. If you are lucky enough to have work you get around 500-600 euros a month, and if you own a home or live with your parents, a few hundred euros might remain at the end of the month. So lets say you work 5 days a week, have two days off, and the will to do a Geocaching trip.

 

There are around 50 caches on a 50km radius. There are less than 10 within 30 minutes from the city, and from those 10 half are missing, with wrong descriptions and puzzles, but the very few Greek players that actually try to do them choose to not report them for archival, with hope someone fixes them. So if you try the 30min range ones, you will end up disappointed, having lost a few hours of your time and trying to figure out what you are doing wrong, and having paid 10+ euros for fuel.

 

If you get to a 1 hour range, there are some more, and the situation is a bit better than the missing ones around here. So you lets say you can do two 1 hour trips to do them. Those one hour back and forth trips cost around 20 euros in fuel at best. You will definitely spend some more for coffee, food or whatever, so most people can do such a trip 2 times a month at best. But in my city there's nothing to do after those two times!

 

So if you add a cost (especially in the form of a forced subscription) for membership, and forcing people into using unauthorized apps, and trying to dodge the restrictions its obvious that noone will want to try it out, and old players will eventually give it up, like they are already doing.

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Sure, I'll take the bait

 

As to making geocaching a for-pay only hobby, most of my geocaching time, I have been a basic member. I do just fine. Like I mentioned above,

The 3 cache limit is not a hard limit. You can still get the coordinates, title, size, difficulty/terrain, then link to the web page. It is somewhat more awkward, but not inordinately so when using apps that help with the web page link (e.g. CacheSense for Android).

The fact that you still are calling geocaching a for-pay hobby, your are simply refusing to open your eyes.

Edited by Andronicus
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Regarding the VAT thing. Off course I trust the official EU site more than some accounting company. The law here is clear: If you don't get a proper VAT invoice, you are not required to pay for the transaction. Not the VAT, the whole transaction. If no one discloses anything, why should I trust Groundspeak or any other company? Anyone can charge +24% and keep the money, since nothing can get checked.

Repeating a misreading of the law over and over again doesn't make the statements true. As a lawyer, I've seen judges deal with that in some amusing ways! (Fortunately, not to my detriment.)

 

If you don't believe me, go back and re-read Geodarts' post. I've always respected his accurately informed statements about the facts of the VAT issue. He has a different slant on what Groundspeak ought to do in terms of voluntary disclosure, and he's entitled to that opinion. You ought to trust Geodarts more than me since he has no connection to Groundspeak. In terms of facts, we are saying the same thing. You are not entitled to your own facts.

 

It's not so much about the specific price, but making geocaching a for-pay only hobby, while it exists solely due to the players, their efforts, and their money already spent on creating and finding caches.

I agree, it would be terrible (and a breach of a promise made in the earliest days of geocaching) if the hobby became pay for play. The basic game has and always will be free. There is no natural right to a free app with unlimited access to a geocache database. So, find one of the many ways to work around that as a basic member. The easiest ones are to save three caches per day for offline use all at once, or to get the coordinates from the Geocaching.com website in your browser and then entering them into a navigation or geocaching app on your smartphone. It's ten seconds of typing. For some of us who began in the days of notebooks filled with cache page printouts, and hand-entering coordinates on a GPS that had no detailed maps, the whining is amusing.

Edited by The Leprechauns
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I've tried contacting hikers, nature lovers and other similar groups. Ever tried explaining to a group of 40+ year old Greeks how to use a combination of apps, web pages and other trickery in order to circumvent Groundspeak's restrictions, on top of explaining the whole Geocaching concept? It simply doesn't work.
Why would you explain geocaching that way?

 

I live in Silicon Valley, and when I introduce new people to geocaching, I still completely ignore the apps, the web pages, the GPS devices, and so on. I briefly explain the basics of latitude and longitude, and that GPS systems use satellites to determine latitude and longitude, but then I move on to the scavenger hunt for hidden containers. And I spend most of my time explaining the scavenger hunt for hidden containers.

 

And I take them somewhere where they can find some hidden containers without worrying about the apps, the web pages, the GPS devices, and so on.

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I've tried contacting hikers, nature lovers and other similar groups. Ever tried explaining to a group of 40+ year old Greeks how to use a combination of apps, web pages and other trickery in order to circumvent Groundspeak's restrictions, on top of explaining the whole Geocaching concept? It simply doesn't work.
Why would you explain geocaching that way?

 

I live in Silicon Valley, and when I introduce new people to geocaching, I still completely ignore the apps, the web pages, the GPS devices, and so on. I briefly explain the basics of latitude and longitude, and that GPS systems use satellites to determine latitude and longitude, but then I move on to the scavenger hunt for hidden containers. And I spend most of my time explaining the scavenger hunt for hidden containers.

 

And I take them somewhere where they can find some hidden containers without worrying about the apps, the web pages, the GPS devices, and so on.

 

Interesting point of view. For me it started with GPS first, since my first contact with geocaching was while developing for Windows Mobile 2003 PocketPCs a decade ago. It was a nice way to test the GPS on uses other than driving, which was an issue back then with more primitive chipsets.

 

To be honest the "treasure hunt" aspect never was really interesting to me, I always did it in order to see new and beautiful places, and to have motivation to go outside. Scavenging for tupperware is secondary, although the logging and seeing what others have to say about caches and places interest me.

 

I don't know how much that will work here. Most of the caches here are related to nature, beautiful view, landmarks etc. Those groups already know and visit those places. And if they don't get really excited about the "treasure hunt" aspect why should they care? I will definitely try the treasure hunt approach next time.

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I've tried contacting hikers, nature lovers and other similar groups. Ever tried explaining to a group of 40+ year old Greeks how to use a combination of apps, web pages and other trickery in order to circumvent Groundspeak's restrictions, on top of explaining the whole Geocaching concept? It simply doesn't work.
Why would you explain geocaching that way?

 

I live in Silicon Valley, and when I introduce new people to geocaching, I still completely ignore the apps, the web pages, the GPS devices, and so on. I briefly explain the basics of latitude and longitude, and that GPS systems use satellites to determine latitude and longitude, but then I move on to the scavenger hunt for hidden containers. And I spend most of my time explaining the scavenger hunt for hidden containers.

 

And I take them somewhere where they can find some hidden containers without worrying about the apps, the web pages, the GPS devices, and so on.

 

Interesting point of view. For me it started with GPS first, since my first contact with geocaching was while developing for Windows Mobile 2003 PocketPCs a decade ago. It was a nice way to test the GPS on uses other than driving, which was an issue back then with more primitive chipsets.

 

To be honest the "treasure hunt" aspect never was really interesting to me, I always did it in order to see new and beautiful places, and to have motivation to go outside. Scavenging for tupperware is secondary, although the logging and seeing what others have to say about caches and places interest me.

 

I don't know how much that will work here. Most of the caches here are related to nature, beautiful view, landmarks etc. Those groups already know and visit those places. And if they don't get really excited about the "treasure hunt" aspect why should they care? I will definitely try the treasure hunt approach next time.

Try to avoid the words "treasure hunt"; people associate it with digging. Try using scavenger hunt.

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Regarding the VAT thing. Off course I trust the official EU site more than some accounting company. The law here is clear: If you don't get a proper VAT invoice, you are not required to pay for the transaction. Not the VAT, the whole transaction. If no one discloses anything, why should I trust Groundspeak or any other company? Anyone can charge +24% and keep the money, since nothing can get checked.

 

Then follow the links on the accounting page and look at the European Commission's Summary of VAT requirements under MOSS. Greece does not require a VAT invoice for purchases of electronic services under the MOSS plan. The vast majority of the states have similar policies, although there are countries that require invoices, either directly or upon request.

 

The summary above applies to both EU and Non-EU companies registered under MOSS, with invoicing being subject to the rules of the member states. I know that for simplicity, some businesses have chosen to issue invoices that comply across the EU. However, I make no claim to be an expert in VAT, what Groundspeak is or is not providing for customers in member states that require VAT invoices, their reasons for not issuing VAT invoices or the registration number regardless of a legal obligation, or if there are further directives that I have not been able to find that affect the requirements for non-Union companies.

 

Also a very specific example, since people honestly can't understand why money, and lack of caches are an issue.

 

Beyond that, I understand why money, lack of caches, and other factors are issues. The game entails a certain privilege. It requires at least some interest in finding containers (or learning about geology) - although I agree with you that the search for a cache is secondary to other things. And it is based on people placing containers that might further that interest, even if there is only a small group that might find them.

 

I have seen other threads where people have stated that the game requires them to widen their circle as local caches are found, which entails time and expense. There are certainly areas near where I live where the caching has never taken off, for reasons that have to do with both culture and economics. And even in the more affluent sections, it appeals only to a small number and many local people who once played have dropped out.

 

I have no idea, other than what you have written, how that works out in Greece. There are certainly other countries where the factors you cite are even more important, where there are more critical issues than finding a container. And it can be hard to sustain interest in areas where there is not a critical mass. The reasons for this can be discussed. But I don't think the limitations in the number of players are attributable simply to premium membership and Groundspeak's policies. The API allows access to thousands of caches and there are third party apps that take advantage of it, some without cost. Whether there is sufficient interest to make that work is the more important question.

Edited by geodarts
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To be honest the "treasure hunt" aspect never was really interesting to me, I always did it in order to see new and beautiful places, and to have motivation to go outside. Scavenging for tupperware is secondary, although the logging and seeing what others have to say about caches and places interest me.

 

I don't know how much that will work here. Most of the caches here are related to nature, beautiful view, landmarks etc. Those groups already know and visit those places.

 

Are you sure that all that are interested into nice locations and hiking already know all the nice places that one could share? Quite frankly I doubt that. I do not even think that this applies to my home country where there are many more cachers. I learnt to know many secret places via geocaching which are not contained in typical guide books.

 

Personally, I do not think that the money aspect has been central in the slow development of geocaching in Greece. I think that a different alphabet and no Greek reviewer create a larger obstacle. In such countries a lot of initiave from a few locals is needed to create a growing community.

 

I have been around in the early years when geocaching started in my home country and I know that the guy who has hidden the first caches in our area hid them before he could find any cache at all. Some others had created an account before him but did not decide to hide caches and for some it took years until they then finally started to geocache actively. The guy I mentioned wrote to every single finder of his caches during the first year, congratulated them to their find and told them that he really would appreciate if they would consider to hide a cache themselves. He and others also told friends and colleagues about geocaching. Some got hooked, many did not. Events have been mentioned as further option to try to increase the number of cache hiders.

 

Before money and the ways to access the cache data base play a major role you need to have a solid base of caches to find and this requires cache hiders.

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Before money and the ways to access the cache data base play a major role you need to have a solid base of caches to find and this requires cache hiders.

+1

 

It may be a hard way.

 

I'm a friend of greek people and culture, so please don't take my statement in a negative conotation: it's not about the cost, since premium membership (30 EUR per year makes 2,50 EUR per month) is just a fraction of the whole caching trip which the thread opener calculated himself.

 

The main problem is the revenue you get for paying that. As cezanne stated, that may be a lot of work to some enthusiasts to seed a critical mass of interesting caches. I think, that's the main point, too.

 

On behalf of the 30 EUR vs. 30 US$: Groundspeak takes the whole risk of currency exchange rates at the moment. And there are other ways, both for paying and for getting more than 3 cache data per day.

 

Plus there may be other geocaching databases with no restrictions. I'd suggest opencaching.gr or if that doesn't exist, setting up your own site (opencaching source code should be freely available from other opencaching sites other than opencaching.com/org).

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Premium memberships would not be a bad idea if they offered something really useful, but I'm not seeing something extremely innovative, something that causes extreme server load or anything else justifying a mandatory fee. Even the pictures are displayed on dimensions ridiculously small for today's standards.

 

Have you ever looked at Premium membership? Just off the top of my head;

 

- Pocket Queries. This allows downloading up to 10,000 caches a day. I presume technically, if used in conjunction with the app, it may be 16,000

- Instant Notifications

- Bookmark Lists

- Planning routes using Cache Along a Route feature

 

You also seem to think that Geocaching is totally provided by the users and volunteers. While that is true to the data in the content, try doing it without the site which provides data collation, search featyres, record keeping, etc. You are more than welcome to set-up a web page, or even a Facebook page, and try to recreate GC strictly from users. Don't really see it being successful. nut if it is, please come back and let us know.

 

Ultimately, GC is US based. They do their best (quite well might add) to accommodate the myriad of differences in technology as well as other countries and cultures.

 

It was promised early on that GC would always have a free component, and that promise has been kept. Call me elitist, but if you want more, you have to pony up with the $$$.

Edited by baloo&bd
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Premium memberships would not be a bad idea if they offered something really useful, but I'm not seeing something extremely innovative, something that causes extreme server load or anything else justifying a mandatory fee. Even the pictures are displayed on dimensions ridiculously small for today's standards.

 

Have you ever looked at Premium membership? Just off the top of my head;

 

- Pocket Queries. This allows downloading up to 10,000 caches a day. I presume technically, if used in conjunction with the app, it may be 16,000

- Instant Notifications

- Bookmark Lists

- Planning routes using Cache Along a Route feature

 

You also seem to think that Geocaching is totally provided by the users and volunteers. While that is true to the data in the content, try doing it without the site which provides data collation, search featyres, record keeping, etc. You are more than welcome to set-up a web page, or even a Facebook page, and try to recreate GC strictly from users. Don't really see it being successful. nut if it is, please come back and let us know.

 

Ultimately, GC is US based. They do their best (quite well might add) to accommodate the myriad of differences in technology as well as other countries and cultures.

 

It was promised early on that GC would always have a free component, and that promise has been kept. Call me elitist, but if you want more, you have to pony up with the $$$.

 

All the features you mentioned, except the plan a route one, are limitations imposed on free users, not features.

 

Geocaching is being "recreated" quite successfully in terms of functions by other, "open" (source) free sites. On some countries its user/cache base is even better than Groundspeaks version (Poland for example).

 

But those sites lack the marketing, the brand name, an easy app and introduction for new users. But the biggest drawback is that they lack worldwide userbase that Groundspeak has because for some idiotic reason they have country/site specific databases instead of a unified one. If they decide to unify the databases, all other things will follow, and then they will be easily on par with Groundspeak.

 

As soon as those sites became a "threat" though, I bet Groundspeak will ban crosslisting of caches on both sites in an order to fight back.

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