Definition of Professional Geocacher

7.4k · October 23, 2016

What kind of professional assumes that every job is identical?

A production line worker.

Having said this, isn't it about time to close this thread? As long as the OP doesn't state what the philosophy behind his/her question is, this discussion is useless.

After all, a professional doesn't produce its own prejudices which are not backed by facts.

It seems like it would be unprofessional for a production line worker to leave a task unfinished.

7.5k · October 23, 2016

Having said this, isn't it about time to close this thread? As long as the OP doesn't state what the philosophy behind his/her question is, this discussion is useless.

While I'll concede that the thread has run its course, I actually think the discussion is much better when the topic is taken at face value without introducing abstract philosophical concepts into the simple matter of when we should use the term "professional".

7.5k · October 23, 2016

It seems like it would be unprofessional for a production line worker to leave a task unfinished.

I don't really think production line worker is a good example of someone we'd use the term "professional" for, but your objection isn't valid. A key job of a production line working is to recognize things that are wrong and remove the item from the production line. It would be entirely wrong for the production line worker to stop the production line and to fix some problem with the widget in front of him when that's not his task.

7.4k · October 23, 2016

It seems like it would be unprofessional for a production line worker to leave a task unfinished.

I don't really think production line worker is a good example of someone we'd use the term "professional" for, but your objection isn't valid. A key job of a production line working is to recognize things that are wrong and remove the item from the production line. It would be entirely wrong for the production line worker to stop the production line and to fix some problem with the widget in front of him when that's not his task.

But if someone is merely being a bit slow, doesn't it seems unprofessional to leave the job unfinished? Maybe it's supposed to take me 20 seconds to do 5 rivets. If I'm a professional I'm not going to just leave it with 4 rivets because my 20 seconds was up.

If we're going to insist on classifying people as professional geocachers, it seems obvious that someone who geocaches in a shoddy fashion where time is more important than actually finding caches is not a professional.

7.5k · October 24, 2016

But if someone is merely being a bit slow, doesn't it seems unprofessional to leave the job unfinished? Maybe it's supposed to take me 20 seconds to do 5 rivets. If I'm a professional I'm not going to just leave it with 4 rivets because my 20 seconds was up.

You're just making up scenarios. We can do that all day. I'll make up another one: one of his 5 rivets snaps after it's halfway in. Does he "finish the job" and spend 20 minutes getting the rivet out, or does he just yank the piece and put it aside. The high volume geocacher is the one that gets to decide whether the job he has to finish is finding the cache no matter how long it takes, or finding the cache as long as he can find it in under a minute. It is not relevant that you can only imagine his job being completed professionally if he succeeds in finding the cache.

If we're going to insist on classifying people as professional geocachers, it seems obvious that someone who geocaches in a shoddy fashion where time is more important than actually finding caches is not a professional.

You say it's shoddy, he says it's efficient. You say he has to find them all, he says he only has to find the ones that don't waste his time.

7.4k · October 24, 2016

But if someone is merely being a bit slow, doesn't it seems unprofessional to leave the job unfinished? Maybe it's supposed to take me 20 seconds to do 5 rivets. If I'm a professional I'm not going to just leave it with 4 rivets because my 20 seconds was up.

You're just making up scenarios. We can do that all day. I'll make up another one: one of his 5 rivets snaps after it's halfway in. Does he "finish the job" and spend 20 minutes getting the rivet out, or does he just yank the piece and put it aside. The high volume geocacher is the one that gets to decide whether the job he has to finish is finding the cache no matter how long it takes, or finding the cache as long as he can find it in under a minute. It is not relevant that you can only imagine his job being completed professionally if he succeeds in finding the cache.

If we're going to insist on classifying people as professional geocachers, it seems obvious that someone who geocaches in a shoddy fashion where time is more important than actually finding caches is not a professional.

You say it's shoddy, he says it's efficient. You say he has to find them all, he says he only has to find the ones that don't waste his time.

I am not saying anybody has to do anything.

I expect a professional geocacher to put in a reasonable effort to find the cache and adjust expectations according to conditions. A blanket time limit on all geocaches is unprofessional.

That's okay because it's a game and nobody has to be professional.

We aren't assigning value to being professional, remember. It isn't bad to be professional or unprofessional. It's just a benign category and nobody should feel bothered to be classified as unprofessional compared to others who are professional.

6.8k · October 24, 2016

You say it's shoddy, he says it's efficient. You say he has to find them all, he says he only has to find the ones that don't waste his time.

As as I was the one who originally came up with the time example, let me stress again that my intention was not to assess geocachers. I just wanted to come up with one aspect that is linked in my

mind to the idea of a "professional geocacher". If professional geocacher for you has a different meaning (and make you think of some efficient cachers in your area), that's perfectly fine too.

There will never be a well defined concept of a "professional geocacher" and different people can associate different things with the notion when they hear it.

3.7k · October 24, 2016

The OP has not even come back into this thread. It's clear to me you folks have, once again, gone a bit overboard. Probably scared 'em off for good...

Edited October 24, 2016 by J Grouchy

7.5k · October 24, 2016

As as I was the one who originally came up with the time example, let me stress again that my intention was not to assess geocachers. I just wanted to come up with one aspect that is linked in my

mind to the idea of a "professional geocacher". If professional geocacher for you has a different meaning (and make you think of some efficient cachers in your area), that's perfectly fine too.

Thanks for a timely comment. I now realize narcissa was back to forcing a judgement on the term "professional" by adding in her expectations about what a professional's goals should be, then saying their work was shoddy if they didn't accomplish them. I found her goals arbitrary and unjustifiable, but after reading your comment, I realize the real problem I'm having with her comments is that she's intent on making a value judgement.

7.4k · October 24, 2016

As as I was the one who originally came up with the time example, let me stress again that my intention was not to assess geocachers. I just wanted to come up with one aspect that is linked in my

mind to the idea of a "professional geocacher". If professional geocacher for you has a different meaning (and make you think of some efficient cachers in your area), that's perfectly fine too.

Thanks for a timely comment. I now realize narcissa was back to forcing a judgement on the term "professional" by adding in her expectations about what a professional's goals should be, then saying their work was shoddy if they didn't accomplish them. I found her goals arbitrary and unjustifiable, but after reading your comment, I realize the real problem I'm having with her comments is that she's intent on making a value judgement.

I just don't find that, if I'm to be estimating someone as "professional" or "unprofessional," that this type of geocaching meets the "professional" standard.

How do we define these terms without defining them?

October 24, 2016

Between this thread and the orange fence thread, why would any new player not go running from these forums.

4.5k · October 24, 2016

Between this thread and the orange fence thread, why would any new player not go running from these forums.

Running,,, or in my case,, reading and getting a kick out of it! The OP asked a question that shouldn't have caused any conflict or angst. But, as per usual, it did.

Maybe the question should have been,, Definition of a Professional Forum Poster. :lol:

How would you define a 'professional forum poster'? Or is there such a person?

Total number of threads started? And/or threads replied in? And/or years of posting?

Distance(s) your fingers have traveled on the keyboard? Number of keyboards/devices routinely posted from?

Number of times one posts per week/month/year?

Number of hours spent in one forum sitting? Volunteering teaching others about forum etiquette?

Amount of money and time spent on replacement of worn out desk chairs, seat cushions, keyboards, etc,,,?

Percentage of posts in each of the geocaching sub-forums, etc? Or having more than, say, 1000 threads started or threads posted to?

7.4k · October 24, 2016

Between this thread and the orange fence thread, why would any new player not go running from these forums.

There is a kinder, gentler area in the forum for newer users, but I don't ever see any moderation that points people there. They have to find it on their own, which is a little problematic.

It's a two-sided issue, really. It's understandable that new forum users are often looking for straightforward answers to questions that may have been asked 1,000 times before. The other side of it is that it gets a little tedious for veteran forum users to see the same fifteen topics come up as new threads every week. Veteran forum users get cranky, old wounds are constantly reopened because discussions never really get further than the 101 level before they start over, and new users sometimes flee.

Typically, forums tend to be more forceful about pushing new user type questions into the area designated for that, and then they don't allow 101-level questions in the areas meant for higher level discussions. I don't know why this one isn't like that, but it's always been a bit of an issue.

6.8k · October 24, 2016

Between this thread and the orange fence thread, why would any new player not go running from these forums.

The OP of this thread started geocaching in 2002 (like myself) and has over 20000 finds - hardly a novice.

Why should a new player focus on a thread like that one?

October 24, 2016

Off topic ad infinitum discussing about a subject where it's not clear what the rationale from the OP won't help a new player either.

7.4k · October 24, 2016

Off topic ad infinitum discussing about a subject where it's not clear what the rationale from the OP won't help a new player either.

That's how it goes with the drive-by posts. You can't force someone to come back and explain.

6.8k · October 24, 2016

Off topic ad infinitum discussing about a subject where it's not clear what the rationale from the OP won't help a new player either.

But why should a new player read this thread at all? And why does every sort of question need to come along with a rationale?

One can just drop off a number of questions and see how different people will react without offering one's own answers.

The questions raised are not like: How to do ..... in the best way? Or What kind of equipment is recommendable etc.

The questions here will not have a hard answer and it's clear that the answers can only be philosophical in nature and those who do not like that are simply wrong in this thread.

Edited October 24, 2016 by cezanne

3.8k · October 24, 2016

OMG, the madness.. this is one of those threads that needs to disappear into the ether.

3k · October 27, 2016

Using definitions from sports:

A professional geocacher would be one who's primary paid employment is geocaching.

A semi-pro geocacher is one who receives income from geocaching, but not as a full time job.

An amateur geocacher is not paid for their caching.

Lackeys, people who run geo-stores, etc are not professional geocachers any more than a ESPN analyst is a professional athlete. They are being paid for work related to geocaching, but not for the geocaching itself.

On the other hand, there are at least a few geocachers who have paid sponsorships from various commercial businesses. So they might be considered semi-pro. I'm not aware of anyone earning enough from geocaching to be a pro geocacher.

There should be a term for people like Alamogul who regularly spend an amount of time geocaching that is comparable to a full time job. I would describe them as prolific geocachers or full-time geocachers (not professionals).

What the OP may have been getting at would actually be the difference between a veteran geocacher and a newbie. That line is alot fuzzier, and probably variable depending on a cacher's willingness and ability to learn in addition to their longevity and Find count.

There is also the question of a casual geocacher vs a competitive geocacher which is generally whether one caches for the numbers or not. Even then there is some gray area; it might be a spectrum rather than either/or.

7.5k · October 27, 2016

A professional geocacher would be one who's primary paid employment is geocaching.

But that's not useful for geocaching, so that's why I use the term for someone who acts as if geocaching is their profession even though they don't actually get paid.

There should be a term for people like Alamogul who regularly spend an amount of time geocaching that is comparable to a full time job. I would describe them as prolific geocachers or full-time geocachers (not professionals).

Alamogul's the first person that comes to my mind when I say "professional". That describes his dedication, expertise, and preparation as well as his ethics and standards. Some days I stop wondering why he does it if he's not getting paid and start wondering who's paying him and why.

7.4k · October 27, 2016

But that's not useful for geocaching

Bingo. The word "professional" is not useful for geocaching.

5.7k · October 27, 2016

But that's not useful for geocaching

Bingo. The word "professional" is not useful for geocaching.

What about Bomb Squad Technicians? I read about them finding geocaches. :unsure:

7.5k · October 27, 2016

Bingo. The word "professional" is not useful for geocaching.

I find it useful. If you don't like it, don't use it.

7.4k · October 27, 2016

Bingo. The word "professional" is not useful for geocaching.

I find it useful. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Again, in the context of this particular post, we're talking about an overarching definition for "Professional Geocacher," not casual, conversational use.

October 27, 2016

It seems like it would be unprofessional for a production line worker to leave a task unfinished.

I don't really think production line worker is a good example of someone we'd use the term "professional" for, but your objection isn't valid. A key job of a production line working is to recognize things that are wrong and remove the item from the production line. It would be entirely wrong for the production line worker to stop the production line and to fix some problem with the widget in front of him when that's not his task.

But if someone is merely being a bit slow, doesn't it seems unprofessional to leave the job unfinished? Maybe it's supposed to take me 20 seconds to do 5 rivets. If I'm a professional I'm not going to just leave it with 4 rivets because my 20 seconds was up.

If we're going to insist on classifying people as professional geocachers, it seems obvious that someone who geocaches in a shoddy fashion where time is more important than actually finding caches is not a professional.

Having worked in a few different "Professions" I find this statement kind of funny. I've been a Machinist, and an Alarm technician among a few other things, both jobs would be regarded as professional. However, on numerous occasions I've seen co workers cutting corners, or rushing through something for example. Does that mean they should be stripped of their profession even if the outcome is acceptable? I don't know the answer to that, but if we put a stop to calling people professionals anytime they did less than 100% I think we'd run out of these professionals pretty quickly.

The funny thing is I've been ignoring this thread and the orange fence thread as I felt they were being dragged out, only to pop in here and see a comment from somebody stating just that. Made me chuckle :laughing:

7.4k · October 27, 2016

It seems like it would be unprofessional for a production line worker to leave a task unfinished.

I don't really think production line worker is a good example of someone we'd use the term "professional" for, but your objection isn't valid. A key job of a production line working is to recognize things that are wrong and remove the item from the production line. It would be entirely wrong for the production line worker to stop the production line and to fix some problem with the widget in front of him when that's not his task.

But if someone is merely being a bit slow, doesn't it seems unprofessional to leave the job unfinished? Maybe it's supposed to take me 20 seconds to do 5 rivets. If I'm a professional I'm not going to just leave it with 4 rivets because my 20 seconds was up.

If we're going to insist on classifying people as professional geocachers, it seems obvious that someone who geocaches in a shoddy fashion where time is more important than actually finding caches is not a professional.

Having worked in a few different "Professions" I find this statement kind of funny. I've been a Machinist, and an Alarm technician among a few other things, both jobs would be regarded as professional. However, on numerous occasions I've seen co workers cutting corners, or rushing through something for example. Does that mean they should be stripped of their profession even if the outcome is acceptable? I don't know the answer to that, but if we put a stop to calling people professionals anytime they did less than 100% I think we'd run out of these professionals pretty quickly.

The funny thing is I've been ignoring this thread and the orange fence thread as I felt they were being dragged out, only to pop in here and see a comment from somebody stating just that. Made me chuckle

I don't see the relevance here. Doing something quickly is different than not doing it at all.

15.3k · October 27, 2016

I don't see the relevance here. Doing something quickly is different than not doing it at all.

As an amateur handyman, I have occasionally spent hours repairing something around the home. In many cases, I'm sure that a professional tradesman (plumber, electrician, carpenter, whatever) would probably have realized that it would be more economical (and yes, more professional) to buy a replacement, rather than waste time repairing whatever it is.

Sometimes it's professional to give up and use your time more productively instead.

7.4k · October 27, 2016

I don't see the relevance here. Doing something quickly is different than not doing it at all.
As an amateur handyman, I have occasionally spent hours repairing something around the home. In many cases, I'm sure that a professional tradesman (plumber, electrician, carpenter, whatever) would probably have realized that it would be more economical (and yes, more professional) to buy a replacement, rather than waste time repairing whatever it is.

Sometimes it's professional to give up and use your time more productively instead.

Sure, but you don't just leave someone with no plumbing under their kitchen sink because you decided it was a waste of time to fix it at all. Or at least, you wouldn't do that and expect to be paid. That wouldn't be professional.

Happily, geocaching is a game, not a profession, and nobody is holding us accountable if we choose to skip a cache for any reason. But in the event that I ever decide to pay a professional to geocache for me, my minimum expectation is that they find geocaches.

7.5k · October 27, 2016

Happily, geocaching is a game, not a profession, and nobody is holding us accountable if we choose to skip a cache for any reason. But in the event that I ever decide to pay a professional to geocache for me, my minimum expectation is that they find geocaches.

Would you pay them to find some geocaches or to find a specific geocache? If you paid them to find a specific geocache, then it would indeed be unprofessional of them to look for 10 seconds and then give up. But if you paid them to find some unspecified geocaches, then it would be up to them how long they look for any one cache and, indeed, it would be unprofessional of them to come to you at the end of the day and say they only found one geocache because they spent the rest of the day looking for the second one.

October 27, 2016

This thread is rather silly but strangely entertaining, and perhaps that was the OP's original intent. I took the term professional to be tongue-in-cheek, not literal and not sarcastic. As for getting paid, some might call me a professional geocacher since I write books containing geocaching and many of the buyers are geocachers. However, many others buy them, too, and what little money I make from it is for the books, or, arguably, the writing, not for geocaching. You wouldn't call Rex Stout a professional orchid grower because his main character is one, nor Sir Arthur Conan Doyle a professional violinist because Sherlock Holmes plays one. I wouldn't even call the people at Groundspeak professional geocachers, even though they make a living from the activity. There are probably a few there whose duties include placing, maintaining, or finding some geocaches (including events), but I doubt any of them are paid to do only that or even mainly that. Even those folks are professional marketers, researchers, user experience experts, etc. who geocache as part of those duties.

7.4k · October 28, 2016

Happily, geocaching is a game, not a profession, and nobody is holding us accountable if we choose to skip a cache for any reason. But in the event that I ever decide to pay a professional to geocache for me, my minimum expectation is that they find geocaches.

Would you pay them to find some geocaches or to find a specific geocache? If you paid them to find a specific geocache, then it would indeed be unprofessional of them to look for 10 seconds and then give up. But if you paid them to find some unspecified geocaches, then it would be up to them how long they look for any one cache and, indeed, it would be unprofessional of them to come to you at the end of the day and say they only found one geocache because they spent the rest of the day looking for the second one.

It's almost as though "professional" outside of its literal meaning is a useless and undefinable term with no meaning at all.

7.5k · October 28, 2016

Happily, geocaching is a game, not a profession, and nobody is holding us accountable if we choose to skip a cache for any reason. But in the event that I ever decide to pay a professional to geocache for me, my minimum expectation is that they find geocaches.

Would you pay them to find some geocaches or to find a specific geocache? If you paid them to find a specific geocache, then it would indeed be unprofessional of them to look for 10 seconds and then give up. But if you paid them to find some unspecified geocaches, then it would be up to them how long they look for any one cache and, indeed, it would be unprofessional of them to come to you at the end of the day and say they only found one geocache because they spent the rest of the day looking for the second one.

It's almost as though "professional" outside of its literal meaning is a useless and undefinable term with no meaning at all.

How do you figure? Aren't the two ways I used "professional" in the above paragraph valid? Yes, being professional depends on what you're hired to do, but I don't see that it makes the term problematic.

Anyway, we were never talking about the word "professional". From the beginning, the discussion has been about the term "professional geocacher", which is different.

October 28, 2016

I don't see why you have to be paid to be a professional, what about volunteer work? Really the argument is just Semantics. To steal some chatter from the orange fence thread..... Maybe we could discuss a professional dead horse beater? :laughing:

7.4k · October 28, 2016

Happily, geocaching is a game, not a profession, and nobody is holding us accountable if we choose to skip a cache for any reason. But in the event that I ever decide to pay a professional to geocache for me, my minimum expectation is that they find geocaches.

Would you pay them to find some geocaches or to find a specific geocache? If you paid them to find a specific geocache, then it would indeed be unprofessional of them to look for 10 seconds and then give up. But if you paid them to find some unspecified geocaches, then it would be up to them how long they look for any one cache and, indeed, it would be unprofessional of them to come to you at the end of the day and say they only found one geocache because they spent the rest of the day looking for the second one.

It's almost as though "professional" outside of its literal meaning is a useless and undefinable term with no meaning at all.

How do you figure? Aren't the two ways I used "professional" in the above paragraph valid? Yes, being professional depends on what you're hired to do, but I don't see that it makes the term problematic.

Anyway, we were never talking about the word "professional". From the beginning, the discussion has been about the term "professional geocacher", which is different.

Why is it different? Is "professional athlete" up for grabs too? When you stick the word "professional" in front of an activity, it means someone who is paid to do that thing. That's what the word means, literally. Some may choose to apply it sarcastically to pigeon-hole other geocachers, but there's no need to hammer out a definition for that kind of casual use. One individual can use it to mean "someone who caches more than I do," and someone else can use to mean "someone who is a good role model in the community," and someone else can choose to avoid using inaccurate words to categorize others.

Actual definition: being paid to do it.

Non-literal definitions are subjective, not useful, and irrelevant beyond immediate context.

7.4k · October 28, 2016

I don't see why you have to be paid to be a professional, what about volunteer work? Really the argument is just Semantics. To steal some chatter from the orange fence thread..... Maybe we could discuss a professional dead horse beater?

Volunteers are not professionals because they aren't paid. That doesn't mean they can't be experts or otherwise very good at what they do. But they aren't professionals.

7.5k · October 29, 2016

Anyway, we were never talking about the word "professional". From the beginning, the discussion has been about the term "professional geocacher", which is different.

Why is it different?

"Professional" is a general term with several meanings and that has different implications to different people. We're talking specifically about the one term "professional geocacher" and which geocachers we should use that term for.

Is "professional athlete" up for grabs too?

Not that I've heard. I think who is identified by "professional athlete" is reasonably clear.

When you stick the word "professional" in front of an activity, it means someone who is paid to do that thing. That's what the word means, literally.

Since no one is paid to geocache, that obvious doesn't apply. So, yes, one choice is to not use the word at all, but I think a better choice is to use the word for someone that acts as if they have a career as a geocacher.

But, incidentally, the definition of professional is "of, relating to, or connected with a profession", and a profession is "a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification", but that doesn't actually mean that the person related to the paid occupation does themselves get paid for that occupation. One could still be a professional carpenter even if at the end of each job he decided not to take any money.

Non-literal definitions are subjective, not useful, and irrelevant beyond immediate context.

I disagree. I think the term "professional geocacher" is useful. I have no idea what immediate context you have in mind, but it's obviously not this thread, since the question posed in the OP thread assumes that we will, in fact, use the term "professional geocacher". The OP doesn't fret about whether the term should be used but, instead, immediately dives into a discussion of how it should be used.

October 29, 2016

Professionalism also means having the maturity. Maturity as in not being the wiseacre who necessarily wants to have the last word in a pointless and endless discussion.

15.3k · October 29, 2016

Professionalism also means having the maturity. Maturity as in not being the wiseacre who necessarily wants to have the last word in a pointless and endless discussion.

I wonder whether there are any professional forum posters in this group...

7.4k · October 29, 2016

Professionalism also means having the maturity. Maturity as in not being the wiseacre who necessarily wants to have the last word in a pointless and endless discussion.

It's a discussion forum. I'd rather see people bantering about something sort of frivolous, than some bully barging in and telling everyone to stop talking.

When a thread isn't interesting to me, I don't read it.

October 29, 2016

Quod erat demonstrandum

7.5k · October 29, 2016

Professionalism also means having the maturity. Maturity as in not being the wiseacre who necessarily wants to have the last word in a pointless and endless discussion.

If you think the matter's settled, why don't you weigh in instead of sniping?

7.4k · October 29, 2016

Quod erat demonstrandum

not being the wiseacre who necessarily wants to have the last word

Definition of Professional Geocacher

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