Entitlement

[+Furrhan]

That sounds fair to me, narcissa. Talking to the CO is definitely a good idea!

 

@niraD: I think in those cases it's acceptable not to log it. Puzzle/challenge caches definitely need to be signed to count. But wouldn't you normally know that that's the kind of cache you're looking for beforehand? I think just for a traditional cache, a visual should be enough if there are extenuating circumstances preventing you from accessing it. But it makes sense to me to confirm with the CO.

[+thebruce0]

I'm sure that these forums do not reflect the vast majority of geocachers but rather the more "earnest" or "committed." That said, I wonder why so many of you care whether someone logs a find or not. It's just an activity or sport; it's not life or death. It's not even a competition. In the end, anyone can play the game any way they want without hurting others. It's their log and their list.

 

I've been an avid birdwatcher for 40 years. Birders usually keep a "life list." It's the same, people decide their own standards and record accordingly. Who cares? If you want to police your caches and get all righteous over others "misdeeds," I suppose you can. Personally, I'd rather encourage than discourage others.

If the find log was completely private and self-maintained like the "life list", then I'd agree.

 

But the cache's log history is public and usable by the community, primarily indicating the status of a cache and listing. It is (as mentioned above) the cache owner's responsibility to maintain the integrity of that publicly viewable log history, for the sake of the community wishing to find the cache and/or enjoy reading about the cache's history.

 

ETA: d'oh, should have read the previous page filled with replies to this already before replying again myself, heh

 

This activity isn't competitive, but statements are expected to be accurate and reliable, for various reasons. A person *can* play the game however they wish, but shouldn't misrepresent what they did.

Precisely!

Edited August 16, 2016 by thebruce0

[+on4bam]

@niraD: I think in those cases it's acceptable not to log it. Puzzle/challenge caches definitely need to be signed to count. But wouldn't you normally know that that's the kind of cache you're looking for beforehand? I think just for a traditional cache, a visual should be enough if there are extenuating circumstances preventing you from accessing it. But it makes sense to me to confirm with the CO.

 

I DNF'd a cache (nano) a few times. First time, real DNF, next time DNF'd because previous finder put it in it's hole backwards so it couldn't be retrieved with a magnet, then I went back and got it out by "MacGyvering" with a long screwdriver and electricians tape (should have used superglue ). That meant logging DNF's until I got the nano AND log in hand. Then it was time to log a(well earned) find.

[+dprovan]

If it's a DNF then that can signal to the reviewer or CO that there's a problem and cause unwanted/unneeded hassle.

It's a different problem if someone misinterprets your DNF. If your DNF is clear, you shouldn't worry about the possibility that a reviewer or the CO react to it as if it signals an issue with the cache.

 

I just don't think it's fair to the cacher to not be able to sign because they were prevented from accessing the cache at the last second, or to the cache owner to have DNF logs on a great cache because someone couldn't open it because there was a snake on it on the day.

Saying it's not fair implies that being allowed to log a find is some kind of reward. It's just a fact that you didn't find the cache according to the rules of the game. Why would you want post a log that's contrary to the facts? Fairness doesn't enter into it, only accuracy.

[+fizzymagic]

If it's a DNF then that can signal to the reviewer or CO that there's a problem and cause unwanted/unneeded hassle. Plus it's not really fair to say they didn't find it when they did, in fact, find it and just couldn't sign. I think a note would be a good compromise though.

 

I've been caching for over 14 years, and ever since I began people have been coming up with excuses not to log DNFs. This particular version is relatively new, though, and the sad thing is that it is closer to being valid than earlier rationalizations.

 

But it's still just an excuse. If I didn't sign the log, no matter what the reason, I log a DNF.

[+bflentje]

If it's a DNF then that can signal to the reviewer or CO that there's a problem and cause unwanted/unneeded hassle. Plus it's not really fair to say they didn't find it when they did, in fact, find it and just couldn't sign. I think a note would be a good compromise though.

 

I've been caching for over 14 years, and ever since I began people have been coming up with excuses not to log DNFs. This particular version is relatively new, though, and the sad thing is that it is closer to being valid than earlier rationalizations.

 

But it's still just an excuse. If I didn't sign the log, no matter what the reason, I log a DNF.

 

In defense of the DNF, I would imagine a good and fair-minded reviewer is going to take the language within the DNF with proper context before causing "unwanted/unneeded hassles".

[+GeoBain]

If it's a DNF then that can signal to the reviewer or CO that there's a problem and cause unwanted/unneeded hassle. Plus it's not really fair to say they didn't find it when they did, in fact, find it and just couldn't sign. I think a note would be a good compromise though.

 

I've been caching for over 14 years, and ever since I began people have been coming up with excuses not to log DNFs. This particular version is relatively new, though, and the sad thing is that it is closer to being valid than earlier rationalizations.

 

But it's still just an excuse. If I didn't sign the log, no matter what the reason, I log a DNF.

 

In defense of the DNF, I would imagine a good and fair-minded reviewer is going to take the language within the DNF with proper context before causing "unwanted/unneeded hassles".

 

It depends.

 

If the reviewer is responding to a NA log, then yes, he or she is probably going to read and take into account the context of the DNF log.

 

But if they are running a maintenance script searching for problem caches, probably not so much. In this case a DNF because you had some issue rather than there being an issue with the cache could cause an unwarranted problem.

 

However, this is not the fault of your DNF. This is an issue with the way these maintenance sweeps are run.

[+niraD]

But wouldn't you normally know that that's the kind of cache you're looking for beforehand?

I've found elevated caches where the only indication was the increased difficulty/terrain rating, or perhaps the "Special Tool Required" attribute. I've found physical puzzles/locks where there was no indication on the cache page that such things were involved, although I might have guessed that the difficulty rating was higher than I would have expected given what I had encountered up to that point. I've found decoys that I wasn't expecting at all, when the "Aha!" moment turned into a "Doh!" moment.

 

But difficulty/terrain ratings are subjective, and I find a lot of caches that seem a lot easier to me than their ratings might indicate.

 

So, no, I don't always know that "that's the kind of cache" I'm looking for.

[+Mudfrog]

If it's a DNF then that can signal to the reviewer or CO that there's a problem and cause unwanted/unneeded hassle. Plus it's not really fair to say they didn't find it when they did, in fact, find it and just couldn't sign. I think a note would be a good compromise though.

 

I've been caching for over 14 years, and ever since I began people have been coming up with excuses not to log DNFs. This particular version is relatively new, though, and the sad thing is that it is closer to being valid than earlier rationalizations.

 

But it's still just an excuse. If I didn't sign the log, no matter what the reason, I log a DNF.

 

In defense of the DNF, I would imagine a good and fair-minded reviewer is going to take the language within the DNF with proper context before causing "unwanted/unneeded hassles".

 

It depends.

 

If the reviewer is responding to a NA log, then yes, he or she is probably going to read and take into account the context of the DNF log.

 

But if they are running a maintenance script searching for problem caches, probably not so much. In this case a DNF because you had some issue rather than there being an issue with the cache could cause an unwarranted problem.

 

However, this is not the fault of your DNF. This is an issue with the way these maintenance sweeps are run.

Some kind of maintenance script may be used but i would think it was just to identify potential problems. May stand corrected but, i doubt a reviewer would use a script that automatically took action on its own. He or she is still going to look up and read the cache page to determine if further action is needed.

[+GeoBain]

If it's a DNF then that can signal to the reviewer or CO that there's a problem and cause unwanted/unneeded hassle. Plus it's not really fair to say they didn't find it when they did, in fact, find it and just couldn't sign. I think a note would be a good compromise though.

 

I've been caching for over 14 years, and ever since I began people have been coming up with excuses not to log DNFs. This particular version is relatively new, though, and the sad thing is that it is closer to being valid than earlier rationalizations.

 

But it's still just an excuse. If I didn't sign the log, no matter what the reason, I log a DNF.

 

In defense of the DNF, I would imagine a good and fair-minded reviewer is going to take the language within the DNF with proper context before causing "unwanted/unneeded hassles".

 

It depends.

 

If the reviewer is responding to a NA log, then yes, he or she is probably going to read and take into account the context of the DNF log.

 

But if they are running a maintenance script searching for problem caches, probably not so much. In this case a DNF because you had some issue rather than there being an issue with the cache could cause an unwarranted problem.

 

However, this is not the fault of your DNF. This is an issue with the way these maintenance sweeps are run.

Some kind of maintenance script may be used but i would think it was just to identify potential problems. May stand corrected but, i doubt a reviewer would use a script that automatically took action on its own. He or she is still going to look up and read the cache page to determine if further action is needed.

 

I have no idea. But based on some past threads it seems that at least some of the time caches are disabled based solely on the presence of multiple DNFs.

 

But that's all I'm willing to comment on.

 

Generally, I think reviewers do a fine job so this was not meant as any kind of condemnation.

[+_kj_golding]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

[+narcissa]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

Discuss the situation with the cache owner before logging. Some cache owners will just roll their eyes at a "forgot my pen" log but others will delete. Pro tip: you can use a leaf and a stick to scratch your name into the log.

 

Never ask about these things in the forum; you'll get ripped to shreds.

[+CanadianRockies]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

If you forgot a pen, many cache owners will allow you to send them a picture of the log sheet instead, however, they are not required to be this accommodating. If you don't sign the log sheet, the owner is permitted to delete your online "Found It" log.

 

If I can't open a bison tube because it is too high, then I, personally, would write a "Note" log instead of a "Found It" log. Some owners would allow you to take a picture of the unopened bison tube and claim a find, while other owners would not even require a photo but simply accept your word that you spotted the bison tube. Most owners probably don't audit their physical logs, so you could claim a find even if you never spotted the bison tube (or never even got within 100 miles of the bison tube).

 

Eventually, most geocachers set their own standards for what they consider to be a legitimate find and what extenuating circumstances still allow for a legitimate find (e.g., forgotten pen but photo taken, container frozen in ice). Some geocachers don't set their own standards but simply consider their finds legitimate if the cache owners don't delete them, but that attitude always has seemed silly to me.

[+_kj_golding]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

Discuss the situation with the cache owner before logging. Some cache owners will just roll their eyes at a "forgot my pen" log but others will delete. Pro tip: you can use a leaf and a stick to scratch your name into the log.

 

Never ask about these things in the forum; you'll get ripped to shreds.

 

Why would I get ripped to shreds? I'm trying to learn. I care about the integrity of the game.

[+_kj_golding]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

If you forgot a pen, many cache owners will allow you to send them a picture of the log sheet instead, however, they are not required to be this accommodating. If you don't sign the log sheet, the owner is permitted to delete your online "Found It" log.

 

If I can't open a bison tube because it is too high, then I, personally, would write a "Note" log instead of a "Found It" log. Some owners would allow you to take a picture of the unopened bison tube and claim a find, while other owners would not even require a photo but simply accept your word that you spotted the bison tube. Most owners probably don't audit their physical logs, so you could claim a find even if you never spotted the bison tube (or never even got within 100 miles of the bison tube).

 

Eventually, most geocachers set their own standards for what they consider to be a legitimate find and what extenuating circumstances still allow for a legitimate find (e.g., forgotten pen but photo taken, container frozen in ice). Some geocachers don't set their own standards but simply consider their finds legitimate if the cache owners don't delete them, but that attitude always has seemed silly to me.

 

Thank you for your reply. Very helpful. I personally don't really care about the numbers, I just love what the game has to offer. I do care about the integrity of the game for myself, fellow cachers and future cachers, so thank you.

[+Walker Kids]

Throwing out this question...still fairly new to the game (~2 years), only cache with my kids, BUT I created a geotour with the guidance of a long time cacher, loads of research & massive Q&A with HQ. I have had several smileys on the tour caches with comments "cache is not here but I talked to a friend who told me where it was so I'm logging it as a find". These really bother me. I also get smileys on our earthcache, but not an email with the answers. After reading the bulk of this thread, I feel like I have the "right" to delete those finds?

[+niraD]

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then?

Were there any twigs and leaves around? I've seen a number of logs with improvised signatures using chlorophyll, mud, and other materials that were found on site.

[+on4bam]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

You find the cache, sign the log and put the container back where you found it, you can then log online. Pretty straightforward isn't it?

[+niraD]

Throwing out this question...still fairly new to the game (~2 years), only cache with my kids, BUT I created a geotour with the guidance of a long time cacher, loads of research & massive Q&A with HQ. I have had several smileys on the tour caches with comments "cache is not here but I talked to a friend who told me where it was so I'm logging it as a find". These really bother me. I also get smileys on our earthcache, but not an email with the answers. After reading the bulk of this thread, I feel like I have the "right" to delete those finds?

Yep. If there is no signature on the log of a physical cache, then the owner has the right (perhaps even the responsibility) to delete the bogus logs. And the same goes for EarthCache logs where the requirements were not met.

 

For reference, see the Help Center article Log Deletion.

 

Personally, I cut people a lot of slack with incorrect answers for my EathCache, as long as it's clear that they went to the location and made a sincere effort. But I have sent warnings and eventually deleted logs when no answers were provided at all.

[+Walker Kids]

Throwing out this question...still fairly new to the game (~2 years), only cache with my kids, BUT I created a geotour with the guidance of a long time cacher, loads of research & massive Q&A with HQ. I have had several smileys on the tour caches with comments "cache is not here but I talked to a friend who told me where it was so I'm logging it as a find". These really bother me. I also get smileys on our earthcache, but not an email with the answers. After reading the bulk of this thread, I feel like I have the "right" to delete those finds?

Yep. If there is no signature on the log of a physical cache, then the owner has the right (perhaps even the responsibility) to delete the bogus logs. And the same goes for EarthCache logs where the requirements were not met.

 

For reference, see the Help Center article Log Deletion.

 

Personally, I cut people a lot of slack with incorrect answers for my EathCache, as long as it's clear that they went to the location and made a sincere effort. But I have sent warnings and eventually deleted logs when no answers were provided at all.

 

Thanks! Yes, I am cutting slack with regards to the answers. Just so long as they actually answer and they are somewhat in the general area. But the total lack of not answering is my issue.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Walker Kids

[+cerberus1]

Throwing out this question...still fairly new to the game (~2 years), only cache with my kids, BUT I created a geotour with the guidance of a long time cacher, loads of research & massive Q&A with HQ. I have had several smileys on the tour caches with comments "cache is not here but I talked to a friend who told me where it was so I'm logging it as a find". These really bother me. I also get smileys on our earthcache, but not an email with the answers. After reading the bulk of this thread, I feel like I have the "right" to delete those finds?

You don't show having any caches, curious what you're referring.

 

If I owned an Earthcache, and someone didn't at least make an attempt at the answers, I'd simply delete their log, figuring they'd (really) know why.

I'd allow one that had answers close.

I'd send 'em an email what they missed, but allow their find.

We're not all going for a doctorate in this hobby.

[+narcissa]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

Discuss the situation with the cache owner before logging. Some cache owners will just roll their eyes at a "forgot my pen" log but others will delete. Pro tip: you can use a leaf and a stick to scratch your name into the log.

 

Never ask about these things in the forum; you'll get ripped to shreds.

 

Why would I get ripped to shreds? I'm trying to learn. I care about the integrity of the game.

 

Because some people in the forum are very particular about these things. It's always a safe bet to communicate with the cache owner when these things come up.

[+Walker Kids]

Throwing out this question...still fairly new to the game (~2 years), only cache with my kids, BUT I created a geotour with the guidance of a long time cacher, loads of research & massive Q&A with HQ. I have had several smileys on the tour caches with comments "cache is not here but I talked to a friend who told me where it was so I'm logging it as a find". These really bother me. I also get smileys on our earthcache, but not an email with the answers. After reading the bulk of this thread, I feel like I have the "right" to delete those finds?

You don't show having any caches, curious what you're referring.

 

If I owned an Earthcache, and someone didn't at least make an attempt at the answers, I'd simply delete their log, figuring they'd (really) know why.

I'd allow one that had answers close.

I'd send 'em an email what they missed, but allow their find.

We're not all going for a doctorate in this hobby.

 

I am on the forum under my personal caching account. The geotour was created under my work account, Explore Kyle. Sorry for the confusion.

[+thebruce0]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

I had an interesting complicated experience very much related to this, recently.

 

I went for a 5 terrain tree cache - one that is best doable with tools, but I opted to make it a climb as I didn't have sufficient tools. Near vertical, sheer tree with rough scaley bark, around 40 feet up. I tore up my arms and legs shimmying up the tree. Got to the cache, struggling to keep in place tightly and one-handing the sucker, being sure not to drop the lid. Couldn't find anything in the container. Not wanting to go down, I climbed a little futher to rest a foot on the limb to which it was attached, sweating and clenching. I planned to take a photo of it as evidence (had phone in the back pocket), but txt'd the CO first. He asked for a photo; of course, the main thing in mind at this point is - don't drop the phone. Well in my current predicament, of course, just as I was about to snap, the phone slipped and fell. To the ground. I let that sink in for a few minutes.

At that point, I felt I had no option but to descend. I got to the ground and looked around to find the phone. Informed the CO of what happened. I was not going to climb back up - however I didn't get a photo of the cache with me clearly up in the tree showing that there was no log in the container. My best evidence of the 'find' was a pic of the container from the ground, and the state of my limbs' skin.

I spent the next 40ish minutes scouring the ground in case the log had fallen out of the container - I was positive it wouldn't have given the nature of its attachment, how I opened it, and the container type itself. I couldn't find on the ground anything that was or contained a log.

CO let me log it found, but informed me that if the next finder finds a log in the container, it'll be deleted.

I now wish I had checked the container once more before descending just to be absolutely sure. More sure than I currently am that it was empty.

The baffling part is that it was only found once prior, and the container was closed, so where could the log possibly be?

 

In this case, my ethic is that if the log's not there, but I could have signed if it was, then I'll claim a find.

The CO's ethic is that if it is missing, given the nature of this cache he'll allow the find for the same reason, but if it's not missing, then I didn't sign the signable log and so it's not a find.

Since there's no absolute confirmation that the cache has a problem, and the CO knows of the its potential state, I didn't post a NM, and the CO can decide if/when to check on it (and will address followup finders accordingly if they get there first)

 

That's a complex situation, but to my mind that's the best, most 'ethical', community-friendly way we can progress.

 

---

The short of it is, per the quote - I would take a photo of the container (ideally with the log and most recent signature, or if really paranoid, a selfie with the log; heck throw in the day's newspaper ) as evidence that it was found as intended - and log it found (without the potential spoiler photo) making note that I had no pen to sign the log. But the CO still has the right to delete the log, if they feel that actually signing the physical log sheet was part of the intended experience (and is supported by the "Found it" log rule - name in logbook)

Edited August 17, 2016 by thebruce0

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Throwing out this question...still fairly new to the game (~2 years), only cache with my kids, BUT I created a geotour with the guidance of a long time cacher, loads of research & massive Q&A with HQ. I have had several smileys on the tour caches with comments "cache is not here but I talked to a friend who told me where it was so I'm logging it as a find". These really bother me. I also get smileys on our earthcache, but not an email with the answers. After reading the bulk of this thread, I feel like I have the "right" to delete those finds?

Yep. If there is no signature on the log of a physical cache, then the owner has the right (perhaps even the responsibility) to delete the bogus logs. And the same goes for EarthCache logs where the requirements were not met.

 

For reference, see the Help Center article Log Deletion.

 

Personally, I cut people a lot of slack with incorrect answers for my EathCache, as long as it's clear that they went to the location and made a sincere effort. But I have sent warnings and eventually deleted logs when no answers were provided at all.

 

Thanks! Yes, I am cutting slack with regards to the answers. Just so long as they actually answer and they are somewhat in the general area. But the total lack of not answering is my issue.

 

Complete agree. The earthcache guidelines stipulate that it must provide an earth sciences lesson and be educational. One does not necessary need to answer a list of questions correctly to achieve that goal.

[+AustinMN]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

Discuss the situation with the cache owner before logging. Some cache owners will just roll their eyes at a "forgot my pen" log but others will delete. Pro tip: you can use a leaf and a stick to scratch your name into the log.

 

Never ask about these things in the forum; you'll get ripped to shreds.

 

Why would I get ripped to shreds? I'm trying to learn. I care about the integrity of the game.

 

There is a saying:

"Venture not into the forums for wisdom, for they shall say both nay and yea."

[+_kj_golding]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

You find the cache, sign the log and put the container back where you found it, you can then log online. Pretty straightforward isn't it?

Yes, I suppose it is if you live in a black and white world and never encounter an exceptional circumstance. Still glad I asked the question though because I'm learning a lot from the other people's experiences. Definitely a creative bunch!

 

I honestly couldn't unscrew the cap off of the bison tube. I tried for several minutes. I had a pen, I intended to sign the log, I took a picture of me with the bison tube. To me, that's an exceptional circumstance. Sounds like others have experienced their own exceptional circumstances. At the end of the day if the CO deletes my log then that's their right. I know I found it and I'm okay with that.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

You find the cache, sign the log and put the container back where you found it, you can then log online. Pretty straightforward isn't it?

Yes, I suppose it is if you live in a black and white world and never encounter an exceptional circumstance. Still glad I asked the question though because I'm learning a lot from the other people's experiences. Definitely a creative bunch!

 

I honestly couldn't unscrew the cap off of the bison tube. I tried for several minutes. I had a pen, I intended to sign the log, I took a picture of me with the bison tube. To me, that's an exceptional circumstance. Sounds like others have experienced their own exceptional circumstances. At the end of the day if the CO deletes my log then that's their right. I know I found it and I'm okay with that.

 

I've had that issue on one of my caches. I didn't delete the log because, as far as I'm concerned, after solving the simple associated puzzle, navigating to the location where the cache is placed, and locating the well camouflaged container, they experienced the cache as it was intended.

[+dprovan]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Before I answer, let me make my position clear: my question is never "Can I log this?" but, rather, "Is there any reason for me to log this?" This often makes my thinking different than others that will reply here, so keep that in mind. It turns out that asking "Should I?" makes the questions appear black and white for me, and, as it happens, your two scenarios have neatly split black and white. At the same time, I ask myself if there's any reason for me to claim the find, and I don't worry myself about whether someone else thinks there's a reason for them to claim the find.

 

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not?

If I'm holding the log, I can always sign it. Sure, it has to be in blood or sweat or etched with a fingernail, but I can still sign it. (On the one hand, I can't remember the last time this happened to me since I carry at least 2 pens in my pockets at all times. On the other hand, I see this in logs all the time, and people take pictures to prove they got to the log. I consider that reasonable proof of "signing".) So I claim the find.

 

The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

If I don't get to the log, for whatever reason, I don't claim the find. (A few times this has happened because I was holding the cache but couldn't get it opened because of container deterioration. Still black to me, although I don't blink if someone else claims the find when it's not their fault they couldn't get to the log.) While the general consensus is different, I don't consider claiming the find in your slightly out-of-reach scenario a ethical question, but merely one of accuracy: the game defines "find" to include signing the log, so if you didn't sign the log, why would you want to say you found it? Lots of people get the impression that the find count is important, so +1 is vital, but they're wrong: not being able to count one more find is insignificant compared to the inaccuracy of saying it was a find when, by definition, it wasn't.

 

Discuss the situation with the cache owner before logging.

I differ from narcissa in that if I find myself asking if the CO will let me log a cache, that's proof to me that I don't really consider it a find and shouldn't say it is. Once I've noticed this, it no longer matters whether the CO would give me the leeway to claim the find, so I don't get them involved.

 

Never ask about these things in the forum; you'll get ripped to shreds.

Why would I get ripped to shreds? I'm trying to learn. I care about the integrity of the game.

If you ask a question in the forum, you get answers. Often the answers contain opinions, and often those opinions are strongly held. Some people mistake emphatically expressing strongly held opinions for "getting ripped to shreds". If you recognize that such interchanges are not personal (whether the person expressing the opinion recognizes that or not), it won't be an issue.

[+narcissa]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

You find the cache, sign the log and put the container back where you found it, you can then log online. Pretty straightforward isn't it?

Yes, I suppose it is if you live in a black and white world and never encounter an exceptional circumstance. Still glad I asked the question though because I'm learning a lot from the other people's experiences. Definitely a creative bunch!

 

I honestly couldn't unscrew the cap off of the bison tube. I tried for several minutes. I had a pen, I intended to sign the log, I took a picture of me with the bison tube. To me, that's an exceptional circumstance. Sounds like others have experienced their own exceptional circumstances. At the end of the day if the CO deletes my log then that's their right. I know I found it and I'm okay with that.

 

Instead of logging the find and hoping for the best, why not write a note or even a Needs Maintenance log? A good cache owner would want to know that the cache can't be opened, and may invite you to log the find. I usually wait until I can return to the cache and sign it properly but that's a personal choice.

 

Honest communication is always better than just hoping to get away with something.

[+redsox_mark]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not? The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

 

You will have seen that some cachers take a strict view, the log must be signed, no exceptions. Others think there can be exceptions... e.g. the example where the cache was found but there was no log inside.

 

So first, decide your own view. If your view is the strict one, you have your answer.

If your view is to take a more flexible approach, then you can take a photo and ask the CO. Recognizing there will be COs to say "that's fine", and others who may say no, it's not a find.

 

This gets debated here a lot. It comes down to how important that paper log is. Personally, I would say you found that bison tube. It's a "technicality" that you couldn't sign because the lid was stuck. But others will say it clearly isn't a find unless you signed the log. What if there was no log inside? Some will say it is OK to add a log, some will say that isn't allowed.

[+narcissa]

I am new to geocaching and I have been lurking around these forums to try and learn the finer details of the game. I feel like there is A LOT to know and learn...it's not as "common sense" as one might think. Anyways, I want to stay on topic here and learn something too.

Before I answer, let me make my position clear: my question is never "Can I log this?" but, rather, "Is there any reason for me to log this?" This often makes my thinking different than others that will reply here, so keep that in mind. It turns out that asking "Should I?" makes the questions appear black and white for me, and, as it happens, your two scenarios have neatly split black and white. At the same time, I ask myself if there's any reason for me to claim the find, and I don't worry myself about whether someone else thinks there's a reason for them to claim the find.

 

Let's say I climbed up the tree and found the cache just to realize that I forgot to bring a pen to sign the log? What do I do then? Am I entitled to the find or not?

If I'm holding the log, I can always sign it. Sure, it has to be in blood or sweat or etched with a fingernail, but I can still sign it. (On the one hand, I can't remember the last time this happened to me since I carry at least 2 pens in my pockets at all times. On the other hand, I see this in logs all the time, and people take pictures to prove they got to the log. I consider that reasonable proof of "signing".) So I claim the find.

 

The other day, my son and I found a bison tube cache hanging in a tree. It was above my head, but I could reach it on tippy-toes. For the life of my I couldn't get the thing open. I took a pic of the find to include in my log to prove we found it. Is that okay or still entitlement?

If I don't get to the log, for whatever reason, I don't claim the find. (A few times this has happened because I was holding the cache but couldn't get it opened because of container deterioration. Still black to me, although I don't blink if someone else claims the find when it's not their fault they couldn't get to the log.) While the general consensus is different, I don't consider claiming the find in your slightly out-of-reach scenario a ethical question, but merely one of accuracy: the game defines "find" to include signing the log, so if you didn't sign the log, why would you want to say you found it? Lots of people get the impression that the find count is important, so +1 is vital, but they're wrong: not being able to count one more find is insignificant compared to the inaccuracy of saying it was a find when, by definition, it wasn't.

 

Discuss the situation with the cache owner before logging.

I differ from narcissa in that if I find myself asking if the CO will let me log a cache, that's proof to me that I don't really consider it a find and shouldn't say it is. Once I've noticed this, it no longer matters whether the CO would give me the leeway to claim the find, so I don't get them involved.

 

Never ask about these things in the forum; you'll get ripped to shreds.

Why would I get ripped to shreds? I'm trying to learn. I care about the integrity of the game.

If you ask a question in the forum, you get answers. Often the answers contain opinions, and often those opinions are strongly held. Some people mistake emphatically expressing strongly held opinions for "getting ripped to shreds". If you recognize that such interchanges are not personal (whether the person expressing the opinion recognizes that or not), it won't be an issue.

 

Pointedly referring to a particular person in a response that willfully misinterprets their comment could certainly be construed as personal.

[+dprovan]

I honestly couldn't unscrew the cap off of the bison tube. I tried for several minutes. I had a pen, I intended to sign the log, I took a picture of me with the bison tube. To me, that's an exceptional circumstance. Sounds like others have experienced their own exceptional circumstances. At the end of the day if the CO deletes my log then that's their right. I know I found it and I'm okay with that.

So, on the one hand, I have no objection to you claiming the find. But on the other hand, notice that this isn't conceptually any different than the cache being missing entirely: both are cache equipment failures. So once you know a cache you couldn't find was missing -- i.e., not merely that you couldn't find it, but that the CO subsequently checked and declared it missing -- do you now claim the find on the same grounds that you claimed the find when you couldn't get it open?

 

Logically, I see no reason to seen any difference, but I recognize that emotionally they're different, which is why I understand when someone tries to claim a find when they couldn't get the container open, and I also understand why COs often allow such finds to stand.

[+dprovan]

Pointedly referring to a particular person in a response that willfully misinterprets their comment could certainly be construed as personal.

I don't know if you're referring to something specific or just making a general observation, but, as I implied, the person posting a response may, in fact, try to make it personal, but there's no reason for someone reading the response to react to it that way. After all, a newbie coming to the forums for the first time would almost certainly not be known to the person posting the response, so anything "personal" about it could only be directed at a person the responder is imagining, not to the newbie himself.

[+thebruce0]

This gets debated here a lot. It comes down to how important that paper log is. Personally, I would say you found that bison tube. It's a "technicality" that you couldn't sign because the lid was stuck. But others will say it clearly isn't a find unless you signed the log. What if there was no log inside? Some will say it is OK to add a log, some will say that isn't allowed.

 

Exactly. It's a technicality until the CO exercises their right to employ the Groundspeak rule of "name in logbook".

 

 

Lots of people get the impression that the find count is important, so +1 is vital, but they're wrong: not being able to count one more find is insignificant compared to the inaccuracy of saying it was a find when, by definition, it wasn't.

There's a little more nuance than that. A Found cache also disappears from the map of Unfound caches. It can become quite a OCD thing to require of yourself that you sign every single log in order to log it found; and so in the case of 'held the container but [for whatever reason] couldn't sign the log', not logging it found can become a hassle - whether it be a lone icon that won't disappear unless you 'ignore' it, or having it remain there so that you can be sure to return another time "just" to sign the logsheet. So it's not always black & white "Found = signed log", for many people.

 

...that, of course, is not the same however as wilfully misrepresenting the find/experience in a Find log (which itself implies findability).

[+dprovan]

There's a little more nuance than that. A Found cache also disappears from the map of Unfound caches.

Meh. I don't see +1 on the found count being any different than -1 on the unfound map. Yes, it shows up on the map because they haven't found it. They still haven't found it even if they erase it from the map.

 

So it's not always black & white "Found = signed log", for many people.

Well, yeah, it's not really black and white for me, either. But if someone asks me what they should do, I'm going to explain it in these black and white terms, since those are the only ones that I think follow from the rules of the game. Then I leave it to them whether they want to make exceptions to the black and white because of some special considerations. I do that, too, from time to time.

[+thebruce0]

Oh for sure. The basics are black and white. From that point, it can get grey when the nuances start showing up during the geocaching career. And typically, the answer are based on common sense applied to respect for land, laws, and community.

Edited August 18, 2016 by thebruce0