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Entitlement


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Getting rather discouraged by the modern concept of entitlement.

"I couldn't climb the tree to sign the log, but I'm logging it anyway."

Got a rather nasty e-mail (from a cacher whose three logs I deleted for not meeting the requirements.)

but by being such a stickler what you have effectively done is remove the fun from the activity - where it is one of the primary objectives.

Really sad.

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Getting rather discouraged by the modern concept of entitlement.

"I couldn't climb the tree to sign the log, but I'm logging it anyway."

Got a rather nasty e-mail (from a cacher whose three logs I deleted for not meeting the requirements.)

but by being such a stickler what you have effectively done is remove the fun from the activity - where it is one of the primary objectives.

Really sad.

 

You have somehow negated the fun they had being in the vicinity of the cache.

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Got a rather nasty e-mail (from a cacher whose three logs I deleted for not meeting the requirements.)

but by being such a stickler what you have effectively done is remove the fun from the activity - where it is one of the primary objectives.

Really sad.

 

Can you post the nasty part of the email? :drama:

 

Hey, at least they weren't nasty enough to use that *Message Center*! :ph34r:

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Since you started the same year I did, you know that this has been going on forever.

Most people never respond when you delete their log, but I've gotten a few of the

"spoiled my fun" logs. I like to wear a special hat when I go out to spoil someones fun. :antenna:

I also like to give awards for the most ridiculous bogus "found it" logs. My two all time favorites are:

1)"Couldn't log a DNF because it wasn't there to be found!" :yikes:

2)"If it had been there I would have found it, so I'm claiming a find" (A Central Park cache that was found several times over the next few days, including by me.)

 

Sometimes I'm tempted to write, "I saw where *I* would have placed it, so I'm claiming a find." :cool:

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The fault really lies with cache owners who toss out garbage caches and don't bother to maintain the cache or the listing. These cachers think that claiming a find on everything is okay because nobody calls them on it before they get to you. There is value in maintaining standards and leading by example.

Edited by narcissa
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I guess for some people, getting that smiley is the fun part, not searching for it. Which doesn't make sense to me, I enjoy the journey just as much as finding the cache. Though I'm someone who relives my childhood through geocaching. and I was a VERY rough-and-tumble kid .... I will run through nettles, lie in mud, stick my hand in that dark crevice without a second thought ... but that's fun to me! Stuff I wouldn't otherwise get away with that really just brings me back to my childhood ... I suppose it's different for others, and they want their smiley and ONLY their smiley!

 

I have fun on DNF's, log em, come back some other time! On most of the DNF's I've logged, the cache is actually MIA anyways, so I take logging DNF's as serious business, because I KNOW if I don't start the DNF chain, most people will be too self-righteous to log a DNF :P

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The fault really lies with cache owners who toss out garbage caches and don't bother to maintain the cache or the listing. These cachers think that claiming a find on everything is okay because nobody calls them on it before they get to you. There is value in maintaining standards and leading by example.

While there certainly is value in having owners delete bogus logs, the fault clearly rests in the people who claim false finds. Just as the victims of crimes aren't to blame for the commission of those crimes.

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Getting rather discouraged by the modern concept of entitlement.

"I couldn't climb the tree to sign the log, but I'm logging it anyway."

Got a rather nasty e-mail (from a cacher whose three logs I deleted for not meeting the requirements.)

but by being such a stickler what you have effectively done is remove the fun from the activity - where it is one of the primary objectives.

Really sad.

 

Yep, in just about every aspect of our lives. Unfortunate. It's why we will fail as a species.

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I was out chipping away at a local geo art series the other day. After DNFing a couple caches, I looked at the logs to see if others had encountered difficulty at them as well. The last two logs were a DNF and a find from the same person, who couldn't find the cache but then logged a find anyway because he "would really, really like the geo-art to be complete in smileys on the map."

 

I guess that's one way to get the job done, but it's not the preferred technique.

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Getting rather discouraged by the modern concept of entitlement.

"I couldn't climb the tree to sign the log, but I'm logging it anyway."

Got a rather nasty e-mail (from a cacher whose three logs I deleted for not meeting the requirements.)

but by being such a stickler what you have effectively done is remove the fun from the activity - where it is one of the primary objectives.

Really sad.

 

Yep, in just about every aspect of our lives. Unfortunate. It's why we will fail as a species.

+1

 

It's gotten worse in recent times. Many people have gotten use to having government and others taking care of them. Pride has taken a backseat, it's just easier to stick the hand out these days.

 

And don't get me started on those, "you want it, you're entitled to it" commercials,,, arghhhh. :(

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It's gotten worse in recent times. Many people have gotten use to having government and others taking care of them. Pride has taken a backseat, it's just easier to stick the hand out these days.

Well, of course we're a tiny bit off topic, but I don't think the problem is the people taking the handouts. I think it's the people that think the government is the only solution to all problems. I can't fault someone for putting their hand out if that's the most efficient way to get something in their hand.

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Anti-social neo-conservative grumbling aside, geocaching has always been a game where newcomers stumble and bumble and, if they stick around, eventually learn by example. Unfortunately, the proliferation of low quality, low investment geocaches (along with apps that don't teach the fundamentals) means that more and more new cachers learn about the game through situations where nobody corrects or guides them. Eventually these cachers are bound to run into a cache owner who does care about the integrity of their caches. I realize it is very fashionable to complain about this concept of "entitlement," but the actual issue here is just misinformation and miscommunication about how the game works. The only way for good geocachers to combat these problems is by sticking to our guns, so to speak. Nobody likes to get a nuisance email from a cacher who doesn't know the rules, but sometimes being a cache owner isn't all glory and applause.

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Anti-social neo-conservative grumbling aside, geocaching has always been a game where newcomers stumble and bumble and, if they stick around, eventually learn by example. Unfortunately, the proliferation of low quality, low investment geocaches (along with apps that don't teach the fundamentals) means that more and more new cachers learn about the game through situations where nobody corrects or guides them. Eventually these cachers are bound to run into a cache owner who does care about the integrity of their caches. I realize it is very fashionable to complain about this concept of "entitlement," but the actual issue here is just misinformation and miscommunication about how the game works. The only way for good geocachers to combat these problems is by sticking to our guns, so to speak. Nobody likes to get a nuisance email from a cacher who doesn't know the rules, but sometimes being a cache owner isn't all glory and applause.

This is true to some extent. But looking at the OP, the problem isn't a lack of knowledge. It's a person who has the "i'm entitled to the smiley because, even though i never reached the cache or signed the log, i did see it from a distance" attitude.

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Anti-social neo-conservative grumbling aside, geocaching has always been a game where newcomers stumble and bumble and, if they stick around, eventually learn by example. Unfortunately, the proliferation of low quality, low investment geocaches (along with apps that don't teach the fundamentals) means that more and more new cachers learn about the game through situations where nobody corrects or guides them. Eventually these cachers are bound to run into a cache owner who does care about the integrity of their caches. I realize it is very fashionable to complain about this concept of "entitlement," but the actual issue here is just misinformation and miscommunication about how the game works. The only way for good geocachers to combat these problems is by sticking to our guns, so to speak. Nobody likes to get a nuisance email from a cacher who doesn't know the rules, but sometimes being a cache owner isn't all glory and applause.

This is true to some extent. But looking at the OP, the problem isn't a lack of knowledge. It's a person who has the "i'm entitled to the smiley because, even though i never reached the cache or signed the log, i did see it from a distance" attitude.

 

And they think that because nothing they've encountered in the game before that has underscored that signing the log is important. It isn't a sign of the apocalypse, and it is a thing that has always happened to some extent. Look at the drama and tears in any thread about tree climbing caches.

 

I can forgive a n00b for making a silly mistake. It takes time to learn how the game works. Certainly, the cache owner is right to be firm and delete the log. That's how a cache owner maintains the integrity of a cache, and that's how the new cacher will learn.

 

The unreasonable expectation that a cache owner should never be sullied by silly n00b logs is what sounds entitled here, really.

Edited by narcissa
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I don't buy for a minute that people do these things because nobody has taught them different. Nonsense. This game is not hard to understand and contrary to some the rules and etiquette are quite easy to understand and pick up. The person who wrote that email to the OP was not a child that doesn't know any better or was "conditioned" to that behavior, and it certainly wasn't an untrained dog who soiled the carpet. It was a fully functioning adult. The OP called them on it, and he/she didn't like that fact. Too bad, toughen up buttercup.

There are those who will blame a victim of theft by saying "it's your fault your things got stolen because you didn't take enough precautions." At the very most, that person can be described as naïve. Count me in as one who says there would be no theft if it weren't for thief's. There are people in this world who don't give a wit about any rules in life and it's not because they are ignorant of those rules. Some will limit this attitude to their harmless leisure pursuit of choice. Others put no limits at all on this attitude in which case these folks usually end up wearing slippers and a number on an orange jumpsuit.

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I don't buy for a minute that people do these things because nobody has taught them different. Nonsense. This game is not hard to understand and contrary to some the rules and etiquette are quite easy to understand and pick up. The person who wrote that email to the OP was not a child that doesn't know any better or was "conditioned" to that behavior, and it certainly wasn't an untrained dog who soiled the carpet. It was a fully functioning adult. The OP called them on it, and he/she didn't like that fact. Too bad, toughen up buttercup.

There are those who will blame a victim of theft by saying "it's your fault your things got stolen because you didn't take enough precautions." At the very most, that person can be described as naïve. Count me in as one who says there would be no theft if it weren't for thief's. There are people in this world who don't give a wit about any rules in life and it's not because they are ignorant of those rules. Some will limit this attitude to their harmless leisure pursuit of choice. Others put no limits at all on this attitude in which case these folks usually end up wearing slippers and a number on an orange jumpsuit.

 

Do you think that, perhaps, it may be a little extreme to compare an iffy geocache log to theft?

 

The fact is that many cache owners do allow logs like that to stand, though it would be better if they didn't. If someone picks up the app and just starts playing, they aren't exposed to the finer details until they start interacting with other geocachers.

 

Stand up for proper cache logs. Delete improper cache logs. That's how new cachers learn. Everyone has to learn somehow, and sometimes, your cache might be the one they learn on. Maybe you'll get a stupid email once in a while. Oh well!

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Anti-social neo-conservative grumbling aside, geocaching has always been a game where newcomers stumble and bumble and, if they stick around, eventually learn by example. Unfortunately, the proliferation of low quality, low investment geocaches (along with apps that don't teach the fundamentals) means that more and more new cachers learn about the game through situations where nobody corrects or guides them. Eventually these cachers are bound to run into a cache owner who does care about the integrity of their caches. I realize it is very fashionable to complain about this concept of "entitlement," but the actual issue here is just misinformation and miscommunication about how the game works. The only way for good geocachers to combat these problems is by sticking to our guns, so to speak. Nobody likes to get a nuisance email from a cacher who doesn't know the rules, but sometimes being a cache owner isn't all glory and applause.

This is true to some extent. But looking at the OP, the problem isn't a lack of knowledge. It's a person who has the "i'm entitled to the smiley because, even though i never reached the cache or signed the log, i did see it from a distance" attitude.

 

And they think that because nothing they've encountered in the game before that has underscored that signing the log is important. It isn't a sign of the apocalypse, and it is a thing that has always happened to some extent. Look at the drama and tears in any thread about tree climbing caches.

 

I can forgive a n00b for making a silly mistake. It takes time to learn how the game works. Certainly, the cache owner is right to be firm and delete the log. That's how a cache owner maintains the integrity of a cache, and that's how the new cacher will learn.

 

The unreasonable expectation that a cache owner should never be sullied by silly n00b logs is what sounds entitled here, really.

It may sound unreasonable but i still hold onto the expectation that people should be honest, even when participating in our silly hobby. And if they do happen to make an honest mistake, admit to it and not try to blame someone else.

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Anti-social neo-conservative grumbling aside, geocaching has always been a game where newcomers stumble and bumble and, if they stick around, eventually learn by example. Unfortunately, the proliferation of low quality, low investment geocaches (along with apps that don't teach the fundamentals) means that more and more new cachers learn about the game through situations where nobody corrects or guides them. Eventually these cachers are bound to run into a cache owner who does care about the integrity of their caches. I realize it is very fashionable to complain about this concept of "entitlement," but the actual issue here is just misinformation and miscommunication about how the game works. The only way for good geocachers to combat these problems is by sticking to our guns, so to speak. Nobody likes to get a nuisance email from a cacher who doesn't know the rules, but sometimes being a cache owner isn't all glory and applause.

This is true to some extent. But looking at the OP, the problem isn't a lack of knowledge. It's a person who has the "i'm entitled to the smiley because, even though i never reached the cache or signed the log, i did see it from a distance" attitude.

 

And they think that because nothing they've encountered in the game before that has underscored that signing the log is important. It isn't a sign of the apocalypse, and it is a thing that has always happened to some extent. Look at the drama and tears in any thread about tree climbing caches.

 

I can forgive a n00b for making a silly mistake. It takes time to learn how the game works. Certainly, the cache owner is right to be firm and delete the log. That's how a cache owner maintains the integrity of a cache, and that's how the new cacher will learn.

 

The unreasonable expectation that a cache owner should never be sullied by silly n00b logs is what sounds entitled here, really.

It may sound unreasonable but i still hold onto the expectation that people should be honest, even when participating in our silly hobby. And if they do happen to make an honest mistake, admit to it and not try to blame someone else.

 

It is just a stupid game we play but at the end of the day, honesty and integrity matter (to me).

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Anti-social neo-conservative grumbling aside, geocaching has always been a game where newcomers stumble and bumble and, if they stick around, eventually learn by example. Unfortunately, the proliferation of low quality, low investment geocaches (along with apps that don't teach the fundamentals) means that more and more new cachers learn about the game through situations where nobody corrects or guides them. Eventually these cachers are bound to run into a cache owner who does care about the integrity of their caches. I realize it is very fashionable to complain about this concept of "entitlement," but the actual issue here is just misinformation and miscommunication about how the game works. The only way for good geocachers to combat these problems is by sticking to our guns, so to speak. Nobody likes to get a nuisance email from a cacher who doesn't know the rules, but sometimes being a cache owner isn't all glory and applause.

This is true to some extent. But looking at the OP, the problem isn't a lack of knowledge. It's a person who has the "i'm entitled to the smiley because, even though i never reached the cache or signed the log, i did see it from a distance" attitude.

 

And they think that because nothing they've encountered in the game before that has underscored that signing the log is important. It isn't a sign of the apocalypse, and it is a thing that has always happened to some extent. Look at the drama and tears in any thread about tree climbing caches.

 

I can forgive a n00b for making a silly mistake. It takes time to learn how the game works. Certainly, the cache owner is right to be firm and delete the log. That's how a cache owner maintains the integrity of a cache, and that's how the new cacher will learn.

 

The unreasonable expectation that a cache owner should never be sullied by silly n00b logs is what sounds entitled here, really.

It may sound unreasonable but i still hold onto the expectation that people should be honest, even when participating in our silly hobby. And if they do happen to make an honest mistake, admit to it and not try to blame someone else.

 

They were honest insofar as they clearly stated what happened in their log. People get so riled up about descriptive logs that it's no wonder cachers end up resorting to "TFTC." Why not leave a little mystery and leave it to the CO to audit... better than getting yelled at or called out on the forum for "entitlement."

 

There are always going to be people who do irritating things. It doesn't mean the world is ending or that everyone who started caching after Mar 3, 2009 is "entitled."

 

It's fine to be annoyed when people act like that, but the problem has a systemic basis in the way newer cachers are being introduced to the game and the only way to fix it is to keep being sticklers and roll our eyes at the complaint emails. It isn't because everyone in a certain age bracket is bad.

Edited by narcissa
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They were honest insofar as they clearly stated what happened in their log. People get so riled up about descriptive logs that it's no wonder cachers end up resorting to "TFTC." Why not leave a little mystery and leave it to the CO to audit... better than getting yelled at or called out on the forum for "entitlement."

 

Yes, it does sound as though the cacher was being honest in their log. It was their reply after that was uncalled for.

 

The thing is, you would think it'd be blatantly obvious to them the reason the cache was up in the tree. Did they honestly think the CO went through the trouble of putting it up there so that people could post finds from the ground?

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They were honest insofar as they clearly stated what happened in their log. People get so riled up about descriptive logs that it's no wonder cachers end up resorting to "TFTC." Why not leave a little mystery and leave it to the CO to audit... better than getting yelled at or called out on the forum for "entitlement."

 

Yes, it does sound as though the cacher was being honest in their log. It was their reply after that was uncalled for.

 

The thing is, you would think it'd be blatantly obvious to them the reason the cache was up in the tree. Did they honestly think the CO went through the trouble of putting it up there so that people could post finds from the ground?

 

These "saw it, couldn't reach it" logs are so common that I think some people just don't "get it" when they first start caching.

 

The nuisance email certainly was uncalled for, and the OP was correct to delete the logs. When I am on the receiving end of that sort of behaviour I also find that a quick email to Groundspeak remedies the situation permanently.

 

I just think it's important to shine a light on a situation that, like so many others, is a direct result of the app-ification of the game (as opposed to various theories about systems of political governance or generational entitlement). I think it's great that the game is easier for people to pick up and start, but good cachers sometimes pay a heavy price for that in terms of the impact on cache maintenance, both physical and online.

 

When we point fingers in the wrong direction it leads us away from effective solutions.

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Stand up for proper cache logs. Delete improper cache logs. That's how new cachers learn. Everyone has to learn somehow, and sometimes, your cache might be the one they learn on. Maybe you'll get a stupid email once in a while. Oh well!

 

I think the key is to inform the person as to why the log is being deleted. A "Your log has been deleted" message with no explanation will only annoy the recipient.

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Stand up for proper cache logs. Delete improper cache logs. That's how new cachers learn. Everyone has to learn somehow, and sometimes, your cache might be the one they learn on. Maybe you'll get a stupid email once in a while. Oh well!

 

I think the key is to inform the person as to why the log is being deleted. A "Your log has been deleted" message with no explanation will only annoy the recipient.

 

Yeah, I kind of go back and forth on that. On one hand, some will accept or even appreciate the note. On the other hand, there is the risk that engaging them directly will invite/incite rudeness and abuse anyway.

 

And sometimes, rather than the rude comment, it just opens it up to the sob story, i.e. "I couldn't reach the cache because I'm too old/young/short/fat/scared of heights, please mister, won't you let me keep the find?"

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I don't buy for a minute that people do these things because nobody has taught them different. Nonsense. This game is not hard to understand and contrary to some the rules and etiquette are quite easy to understand and pick up. The person who wrote that email to the OP was not a child that doesn't know any better or was "conditioned" to that behavior, and it certainly wasn't an untrained dog who soiled the carpet. It was a fully functioning adult. The OP called them on it, and he/she didn't like that fact. Too bad, toughen up buttercup.

There are those who will blame a victim of theft by saying "it's your fault your things got stolen because you didn't take enough precautions." At the very most, that person can be described as naïve. Count me in as one who says there would be no theft if it weren't for thief's. There are people in this world who don't give a wit about any rules in life and it's not because they are ignorant of those rules. Some will limit this attitude to their harmless leisure pursuit of choice. Others put no limits at all on this attitude in which case these folks usually end up wearing slippers and a number on an orange jumpsuit.

Do you think that, perhaps, it may be a little extreme to compare an iffy geocache log to theft?

I don't think TheAuthorityFigures were comparing the consequences of iffy geocache logs to the consequences of theft. I think they were comparing your attitude of blaming the cache owner instead of the logger to those who blame the victims of crime instead of the criminals. It's called an analogy. Some factors are comparable, but not all.

 

The fact is that many cache owners do allow logs like that to stand, though it would be better if they didn't. If someone picks up the app and just starts playing, they aren't exposed to the finer details until they start interacting with other geocachers.

"Found it" seems like a fairly intuitive concept that shouldn't be difficult for newbies to grasp. I actually believe most people who log false "Found its" do so after interacting with other geocachers who have adopted this attitude. If you're inclined to take this kind of short cut and see others doing it, then that enables you to do so as well.

 

Stand up for proper cache logs. Delete improper cache logs. That's how new cachers learn. Everyone has to learn somehow, and sometimes, your cache might be the one they learn on. Maybe you'll get a stupid email once in a while. Oh well!

Yes, it would be good if more people deleted improper cache logs, just as it would be good if more victims of sexual assaults reported those crimes to police. But I understand why some people are reluctant to take these helpful actions, and I certainly don't blame them for what happened.

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Yeah, I've been getting a lot of snarky and quite rude responses when I let someone know they need to sign the log. I always send a nice note stating either that I will give them a week or so to sign it before I delete their log, or I let them know why I am deleting it.

what I get in response is an example:

 

"Thanks for reminding me of the rules! It only makes it more fun! It's important to strictly enforce rules. You will find the log sighed. Hugs and kisses"

 

And that is from a premium member cache.

 

When the requirements are that you sign the log, not just by the Groundspeak rules, but ones that I say "you must sign to claim the find" it makes me mad that I have to remind people and then they get pissy about it. I know noone likes the cache police, but I wonder how many other caches these people have logged and not actually found.

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...what I get in response is an example:

 

"Thanks for reminding me of the rules! It only makes it more fun! It's important to strictly enforce rules. You will find the log sighed. Hugs and kisses"

 

And that is from a premium member cache.

Curious, what does membership have to do with it?

You're not actually insinuating that a pm would be more compliant, knowledgeable, or courteous, are you?

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...what I get in response is an example:

 

"Thanks for reminding me of the rules! It only makes it more fun! It's important to strictly enforce rules. You will find the log sighed. Hugs and kisses"

 

And that is from a premium member cache.

Curious, what does membership have to do with it?

You're not actually insinuating that a pm would be more compliant, knowledgeable, or courteous, are you?

Am I the only one reading the log entry as a disguised snide or sarcastic remark?

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...what I get in response is an example:

 

"Thanks for reminding me of the rules! It only makes it more fun! It's important to strictly enforce rules. You will find the log sighed. Hugs and kisses"

 

And that is from a premium member cache.

Curious, what does membership have to do with it?

You're not actually insinuating that a pm would be more compliant, knowledgeable, or courteous, are you?

Am I the only one reading the log entry as a disguised snide or sarcastic remark?

Probably not.

But if you're curious about a log entry within another post, why respond to me?

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...what I get in response is an example:

 

"Thanks for reminding me of the rules! It only makes it more fun! It's important to strictly enforce rules. You will find the log sighed. Hugs and kisses"

 

And that is from a premium member cache.

Curious, what does membership have to do with it?

You're not actually insinuating that a pm would be more compliant, knowledgeable, or courteous, are you?

Am I the only one reading the log entry as a disguised snide or sarcastic remark?

Nope. I think its pretty obvious. :rolleyes:

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Sorry. The listed example was only an example of thee sort of logs I was thinking of. I didn't want to be too specific.

The actual log was for a webcam cache. The logger took a picture of his/her feet at the location. Could not get the cell phone to work properly. Reception is not great there. Selfies are not permitted. Photo of you taken by the webcam is required. Just the same sort of situation: Unable to fulfill the requirements to log the cache. And, of course, with grandfathered webcams, we COs have to be careful to maintain the logs properly.

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Entitlement is not limited to age. I've met plenty of adults, including retirees, who have a "you can't tell me I can't do what I want the way I want" attitude.

 

Yeah, some of the worst communications we've had came from experienced, retired geocachers who really ought to know how the game works by now. You should see how cranky some people get when someone publishes a puzzle or letterbox they can't solve.

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Entitlement is not limited to age. I've met plenty of adults, including retirees, who have a "you can't tell me I can't do what I want the way I want" attitude.

 

Yeah, some of the worst communications we've had came from experienced, retired geocachers who really ought to know how the game works by now. You should see how cranky some people get when someone publishes a puzzle or letterbox they can't solve.

 

So true!

 

But i have to ask,,, if they're retired geocachers, why do they care? :lol:

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Yeah, some of the worst communications we've had came from experienced, retired geocachers who really ought to know how the game works by now.

Several people have said similar things in this thread suggesting that these entitled seekers are unreasonable, and I think this reaction to them is a little off. I agree that not signing the log is a good absolute line to follow, and I have no problem with COs rejecting finds that don't measure up to the official criteria. But it's also true that COs are free to give leeway, so saying these cachers are just flat our wrong is not accurate. They're playing their way, and, I'm guessing, they've run into plenty of COs that play the same way or, at least, will allow the variation. So technically it's a matter of opinion, although, of course, the CO's opinion gets the priority.

 

I'm not saying this to excuse them or to demand people give them what they ask for. I'm just saying our reaction should be more along the lines of explanation rather than accusation. Tell them they're wrong, and they'll go away in a huff every time. Point out to them why the smiley they're demanding isn't that important compared to objective standards, and once in a while you'll convert someone, maybe even make a friend.

 

You should see how cranky some people get when someone publishes a puzzle or letterbox they can't solve.

I know you're right to suggest such people are often unjustly cranky because of their lack of ability, but I have to admit I've run into some puzzles that I couldn't solve because they weren't solvable, and I felt somewhat justified in being cranky about them, although, of course, I kept it to myself.

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Entitlement is not limited to age. I've met plenty of adults, including retirees, who have a "you can't tell me I can't do what I want the way I want" attitude.

 

Yeah, some of the worst communications we've had came from experienced, retired geocachers who really ought to know how the game works by now. You should see how cranky some people get when someone publishes a puzzle or letterbox they can't solve.

 

So true!

 

But i have to ask,,, if they're retired geocachers, why do they care? :lol:

 

And that's why the Oxford comma is important, darn it.

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I know you're right to suggest such people are often unjustly cranky because of their lack of ability, but I have to admit I've run into some puzzles that I couldn't solve because they weren't solvable, and I felt somewhat justified in being cranky about them, although, of course, I kept it to myself.

 

How would you know a puzzle was not solvable? Would you consider this unsolvable:

 

If Joe has two apples and Fred has three apples, how far is it to London?

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...what I get in response is an example:

 

"Thanks for reminding me of the rules! It only makes it more fun! It's important to strictly enforce rules. You will find the log sighed. Hugs and kisses"

 

And that is from a premium member cache.

Curious, what does membership have to do with it?

You're not actually insinuating that a pm would be more compliant, knowledgeable, or courteous, are you?

Am I the only one reading the log entry as a disguised snide or sarcastic remark?

Probably not.

But if you're curious about a log entry within another post, why respond to me?

 

This actually was a message from the message center, not on the log. easy to be snarky and sarcastic when it is "private". I would think membership would bring with it the understanding that signing the log is a basic requirement for claiming a find. Some people are just using the app and just playing around from their couch, or maybe they are out but have never read the requirements, and don't know. I have encountered plenty of these. In my mind (and this is where I guess I am incorrect)if you are plunking down money, you would be serious about the activity. I don't think I'm being a fascist about this. Just walking by an area that may have a cache is not a qualification for finding it.

 

There are plenty of people around these parts that do that.

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I've logged a number of caches that I didn't find.

 

Of course, I logged them as DNFs, or as Notes (e.g., DNS or Did Not Search), or as some other log type.

 

In some cases, I had lots of fun geocaching, despite my lack of a Find.

 

Some of my most memorable and fun outings resulted in a DNF.

 

Edit: added the word most which should have been in original post

Edited by GeoBain
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I've logged a number of caches that I didn't find.

 

Of course, I logged them as DNFs, or as Notes (e.g., DNS or Did Not Search), or as some other log type.

 

In some cases, I had lots of fun geocaching, despite my lack of a Find.

 

Some of my memorable and fun outings resulted in a DNF.

 

I've DNFd a few caches for which I would give a favorite point but can't because we can only add favorites on a cache that we've found (posted a Found it log).

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I know you're right to suggest such people are often unjustly cranky because of their lack of ability, but I have to admit I've run into some puzzles that I couldn't solve because they weren't solvable, and I felt somewhat justified in being cranky about them, although, of course, I kept it to myself.

 

How would you know a puzzle was not solvable? Would you consider this unsolvable:

 

If Joe has two apples and Fred has three apples, how far is it to London?

Imo, it doesn't matter if it is solvable or not. The important thing is that dprovan keeps it to himself.

 

I don't know why some go overboard and throw a fit when they encounter a puzzle cache they don't like. The way i look at it, if i have the right to complain about a hard puzzle, then i also have the right to complain about caches in trees, caches underwater, caches at scenic areas, caches near dumpsters, caches in forests, or caches in parking lots. Wait a minute, i do complain about parking lot caches. :anibad: (note to self, keep it to myself from now on)

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Stand up for proper cache logs. Delete improper cache logs. That's how new cachers learn. Everyone has to learn somehow, and sometimes, your cache might be the one they learn on. Maybe you'll get a stupid email once in a while. Oh well!

 

I think the key is to inform the person as to why the log is being deleted. A "Your log has been deleted" message with no explanation will only annoy the recipient.

 

I agree.

 

"give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime".

Edited by justintim1999
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From another thread I posted this....

 

As I'm pretty new to geocaching I'm still learning the etiquette, but it wouldn't occur to me to log a "found it!" unless I actually had my hands on the cache and signed the log. I wouldn't post a DNF if I didn't have time to look properly, or if I didn't get to GZ. If there's an obstruction I'd write a note - e.g. recently I went to find a very urban cache, pretty sure I know whereabouts it is, but couldn't access as a homeless chap had taken up residence.

 

I have posted DNFs where I have looked pretty carefully for a reasonable length of time and still haven't been able to spot the cache. Or, where it's so overgrown (with nettles, brambles etc) that even with decent clothing you still wouldn't find it. If I don't give it a good attempt, I might write a note (if there's something worthwhile saying) or I'll just leave it and try again another day.

 

To add, the one thing I have balked at is diving through rubbish to find a cache. If it's in a place that's regularly overflowing with rubbish, I don't think it's a great place for a cache personally. My understanding of GC is that caches are ideally placed in spots that are interesting for their own sake. I'm not particularly interested in fly-tipped rubbish, myself. But I'd only post a DNF in those circs if I'd had a good look, all the same. I'd also flag up that the area is vile!

Edited by gingersquee
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To add, the one thing I have balked at is diving through rubbish to find a cache. If it's in a place that's regularly overflowing with rubbish, I don't think it's a great place for a cache personally. My understanding of GC is that caches are ideally placed in spots that are interesting for their own sake. I'm not particularly interested in fly-tipped rubbish, myself. But I'd only post a DNF in those circs if I'd had a good look, all the same. I'd also flag up that the area is vile!

 

If I were to get to a cache hidden in a filthy spot I wouldn't look for it but log a DNF with explanation why I didn't search. Being picky about caches helps a great deal avoiding this though.

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How would you know a puzzle was not solvable?

In the cases I'm thinking of, the key clue was very few finds, and most of the logs had comments like "Had to get a hint from the CO," often with "CO" being replaced by a name indicating they were friends with the CO. It was many, many puzzle caches, and all the finds seemed to be the same limited set of people, so I got the distinct impression the main way to solve the puzzle was to be in the clique. I don't mind when that happens once in a while, but this seemed to be pervasive.

 

Would you consider this unsolvable:

 

If Joe has two apples and Fred has three apples, how far is it to London?

Yes, I would consider that unsolvable, but the cases I was thinking about wasn't disconnected logic but rather moon logic. Instead of the logic never working, the logic does work, but only if someone tells you which irrational leap to take to solve it.

 

Imo, it doesn't matter if it is solvable or not. The important thing is that dprovan keeps it to himself.

Well, what I think is the important thing is that while I kept it to myself, one might want to consider whether, in any given case, crankiness is, in fact, justified.

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Well, what I think is the important thing is that while I kept it to myself, one might want to consider whether, in any given case, crankiness is, in fact, justified.

 

There is no justification for hostility toward a cache owner for placing a cache that isn't to a particular individual's taste or ability.

 

Most experienced geocachers occasionally feel cranky or frustrated about geocaches that are difficult, but holding the cache owner at fault for placing the geocache is ridiculous. Good geocachers learn to power through or set it aside. Not all caches are for all people.

 

A geocache is like an invitation to a party. Some of us may not want to go to the party. Some of us may not be able to attend the party. A reasonable person does not lash out at the host for having the party in the first place.

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Would you consider this unsolvable:

 

If Joe has two apples and Fred has three apples, how far is it to London?

Yes, I would consider that unsolvable, but the cases I was thinking about wasn't disconnected logic but rather moon logic. Instead of the logic never working, the logic does work, but only if someone tells you which irrational leap to take to solve it.

 

I don't consider that unsolvable. Regardless of who has how many apples or oranges, the distance to London can be determined. Like "You are the conductor on the train, and after whatever number of people get on and off at various stops, What's the conductor's name?" it is only necessary to know what to ignore.

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How would you know a puzzle was not solvable?

In the cases I'm thinking of, the key clue was very few finds, and most of the logs had comments like "Had to get a hint from the CO," often with "CO" being replaced by a name indicating they were friends with the CO. It was many, many puzzle caches, and all the finds seemed to be the same limited set of people, so I got the distinct impression the main way to solve the puzzle was to be in the clique. I don't mind when that happens once in a while, but this seemed to be pervasive.

 

Would you consider this unsolvable:

 

If Joe has two apples and Fred has three apples, how far is it to London?

Yes, I would consider that unsolvable, but the cases I was thinking about wasn't disconnected logic but rather moon logic. Instead of the logic never working, the logic does work, but only if someone tells you which irrational leap to take to solve it.

 

I don't do puzzle caches, but if I did, the kind of thing I would do would be to create a long and tortured puzzle that required lots of esoteric knowledge and...all of it would be irrelevant. Unsolvable? Yep, just like the "apples to miles." Because the solution is really simple. Select the text of the puzzle, and there, under the fake puzzle, the final coordinates would appear, originally in white text on a white background. Would you need a hint? Maybe. Then again, maybe your browser would interpret the HTML different and so the coords are already visible.

 

You think you need to go from X to Y to Z to solve it when you really need to go fishing.

 

BTW, the name the cachers keep mentioning in their logs may not be the CO, they may not even be a person at all.

 

Meanwhile, the whole point of the puzzle may be to get you to ask for a hint. But you have come to your conclusions...

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