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Torgut

New Category Idea: Relics of Communism

39 posts in this topic

This is just an idea... when I travel I always love to spot this places or objects which are ghosts from a past where Communism was the regime in many countries of the world. I am aware that for many, the fact that none of this places/objects can be found in North America might be a problem. But the same geographical limitations can be said about many of the categories approved in the last couple of years (and before).

 

This is a list of countries eligible for spotting waymarks in such category:

 

China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, Vietnam, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Mongolia, Yemen, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Rep. of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Slovenia, Angola, Benin, Dem Rep. of Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, and Mozambique.

 

More than 50 nations all together.

 

Is some of these countries, due to regime changes, finding one of these relics is quite a challenge. But they are there, some were gathered in museums or thematic parks, some would be too hard to remove, some were just forgotten, some are in sacred places, like cemeteries. There are plenty: statues of Lenin and other Communist leaders; socialist style statues; abandoned buildings and complexes; burial monuments; signage and iconography. Anyway, thoughts?

Edited by Torgut
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There may be possibilities even in North America. For example, I know of burial sites in Canada for leaders in various Canadian communist parties.

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I thought about those kind of places but I am not sure if they should be considered "Relics of Communism".

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So we are seeking surviving objects

that existed during a communist regime and

that continue to remind us of communism.

 

What if such objects were on display elsewhere, such as pieces of the Berlin wall now found across the world?

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So we are seeking surviving objects

that existed during a communist regime and

that continue to remind us of communism.

 

What if such objects were on display elsewhere, such as pieces of the Berlin wall now found across the world?

 

Please note that when I said "I am not sure" I was being literal. I am not discarding tombs of Communist leaders in Canada (or any other country without a Communist past). Perhaps if the Communist iconography is clearly present... ? But in general I am more impressed about strong and clear signs of the past (and the present, in the 5 remaining communist countries in the world): statues of Lenin all around Belarus, monuments in that socialist style representing the "strength of workers", huge communist symbols in a bridge. Give you a practical and amazing example: in Prague, although many people don't know this, there is a Soviet time remaining statue, near the main train station.

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What do you think about situations like the one you mentioned - the Berlin wall fragment on display? I am hesitant. Somehow I feel it strips the waymark of the original sense and purpose. I don't know.

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This is just an idea... when I travel I always love to spot this places or objects which are ghosts from a past where Communism was the regime in many countries of the world. I am aware that for many, the fact that none of this places/objects can be found in North America might be a problem. But the same geographical limitations can be said about many of the categories approved in the last couple of years (and before).

 

This is a list of countries eligible for spotting waymarks in such category:

 

China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, Vietnam, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Mongolia, Yemen, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Rep. of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Slovenia, Angola, Benin, Dem Rep. of Congo, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, and Mozambique.

 

More than 50 nations all together.

 

Is some of these countries, due to regime changes, finding one of these relics is quite a challenge. But they are there, some were gathered in museums or thematic parks, some would be too hard to remove, some were just forgotten, some are in sacred places, like cemeteries. There are plenty: statues of Lenin and other Communist leaders; socialist style statues; abandoned buildings and complexes; burial monuments; signage and iconography. Anyway, thoughts?

 

the tombs honoring people that oppressed others aren't much of an attraction to me. if like to see the interesting relics though, like factories, school houses, March locations, speech locations, and movement beginning points. it's very cool to sit at a spot and imagine the times and happenings of the day during those periods

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I like the way this conversation is going.

 

I suggest that the category include only those special objects (and places) that are in situ, relics that remain in context geographically speaking. Such a category would be much easier for reviewers. Unfortunately, that does likely leave us with no waymarks in the US and Canada. No matter: we are spoiled in North America.

 

It will be a challenge to fine tune the description of such a category.

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I suggest that the category include only those special objects (and places) that are in situ, relics that remain in context geographically speaking. Such a category would be much easier for reviewers.

 

I agree. This, unfortunately reduced it geographically to the countries of the former communist block and their allies, but at one time, that was one third of the earth. Stretching from Cuba to Vietnam, I think this is global enough. And if you really want one in the US: The Haymarket massacre in Chicago in 1886 gave birth to the most popular communist holiday - May-Day (May first), that was celebrated in every communist country. And the Haymarket Martyrs' Monument near Chicago is a National Historic Monument that - in my book - would fit the description.

 

To throw in another idea (for maybe another category): Many countries have monuments of an ideologically different past. That would not only cover the Karl Marx monument in my formerly communist East German home town, but also - just for example - the confederate soldier monuments one can find all over Virginia. But anyway, that would be a different category. As for the "Relics of Communism" - count me in!

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I recently learned of some strange examples which might qualify. China directly arranged the construction of railways and rail stations in countries like Zambia. The station architecture reflects the style of Communist China. Would this strange example qualify?

 

http://www.panoramio.com/m/photo/8549691

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I think this is a good idea, but i do not understand why it's necessary to reduce it only to country with communist governement.

 

Why not expand this idea to all communist events, like this it's a global category and example gave by Bernd das Brot Team in Chicago could fit and must fit in the category.

 

In France we used to have town council communist (less than before) and in these towns it's usual to have Trotsky, Lenine, Gagarine statues, parks, Gymnasium, streets, etc...

Staline, Mao and Pol Pot are a little bit deprecated....

 

I am not sure Relics is the right word, but not able to give a better one.

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I think this is a good idea, but i do not understand why it's necessary to reduce it only to country with communist governement.

 

Why not expand this idea to all communist events, like this it's a global category and example gave by Bernd das Brot Team in Chicago could fit and must fit in the category.

 

In France we used to have town council communist (less than before) and in these towns it's usual to have Trotsky, Lenine, Gagarine statues, parks, Gymnasium, streets, etc...

Staline, Mao and Pol Pot are a little bit deprecated....

 

I am not sure Relics is the right word, but not able to give a better one.

 

I didn't say it has to be limited to countries which had an actual Communist regime, but I still think it's the best way to preserve the interest and original idea of the category, excluding proposals which are just vaguely connected with the subject and would make acceptance highly subjective.

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I recently learned of some strange examples which might qualify. China directly arranged the construction of railways and rail stations in countries like Zambia. The station architecture reflects the style of Communist China. Would this strange example qualify?

 

http://www.panoramio.com/m/photo/8549691

 

I would accept it. Zambia was actually part of the Communist block, at least as I see it. There is this kind of final test: are (or, rarely, were) the Armed Forces of a given country equipped with AK-47's? If yes, then the country was at some moment part of the Communist block. Zambia soldiers use AK-47, as far as I know. I would call that train station a great find.

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There is this kind of final test: are (or, rarely, were) the Armed Forces of a given country equipped with AK-47's? If yes, then the country was at some moment part of the Communist block.

I am sorry, but that is not true. AK-47 were produces legally in the USSR, in Czechoslovakia, in China and in Yugoslavia and illegally in about 50 countries. During my years in the merchant fleet I've been to 17 African countries, and they were all equipped with AK-47s. Also: Guess what were the first weapons, the young state of Israel was equipped with in 1948? AK-47 machine guns, Makarov pistols and T-34 tanks.

The Soviet Union and China were among the largest arms dealers in the world and selling cheap weapons to anyone who was willing pay was a lucrative business with the added bonus of creating an economical dependency.

I think the best criteria is any country taht at some point had the title Peoples Republic or Socialist Republic in its name. The list you provided is pretty comprehensive, only you got the wrong Congo: the former Peoples Republic is the smaller one of the two Congos.

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[the tombs honoring people that oppressed others aren't much of an attraction to me.

 

I hope you never logged a waymark in the "Monarchs of the World" category. :-)

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I didn't say it has to be limited to countries which had an actual Communist regime, but I still think it's the best way to preserve the interest and original idea.

 

I agree again, the main focus should be on the countries of the communist block, but there should be exceptions. I think the grave of Karl Marx in London and the grave of Leon Trotsky in Coyoacán, Mexico would definitely qualify. You can't get a more communist design, than Trosky's grave site:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky#/media/File:Trotsky_grave.jpg

 

Another good example would be the Che Guevara Monument in La Higuera, Bolivia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Higuera

 

I also know of Lenin statues in Spain and Finland

 

Maybe it should be called "Relics of the Communist Movement", covering relics of communist countries and/or communist leaders.

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I would support this category only if it was expanded out of the former Soviet bloc to include relics of communism that exist also in the western world, such as the Haymarket Square memorial or the HQ of MI-5 where Kim Philby notoriously worked for the Soviet government. Perhaps some sites in the US that would qualify would be the Senate hearing rooms where Joseph McCarthy met his downfall? Or the International Spy Museum, or the historical markers dedicated to known US communists in the 1950s, just to name a few examples.

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz
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... or the HQ of MI-5 where Kim Philby notoriously worked for the Soviet government. Perhaps some sites in the US that would qualify would be the Senate hearing rooms where Joseph McCarthy met his downfall? Or the International Spy Museum ...

 

In that case we could mark every larger military base in the US and Russia, because both sides had their spies everywhere. I think, Torgut suggested a category for monuments displaying communist ideology, not a category for the political outfall of this ideology.

 

I think you are suggesting a different - though interesting - category; I would call it "Cold War Memorials." This could include your suggestions, as well as - for example - the Check Point Charlie Museum and the Spy-Bridge in Berlin or the Rudolf Anderson Memorial (A U2-Pilot who was shut down over Cuba) in Laughlin.

 

Get a discussion about a Cold War category started and I will gladly join you.

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There is this kind of final test: are (or, rarely, were) the Armed Forces of a given country equipped with AK-47's? If yes, then the country was at some moment part of the Communist block.

I am sorry, but that is not true. AK-47 were produces legally in the USSR, in Czechoslovakia, in China and in Yugoslavia and illegally in about 50 countries. During my years in the merchant fleet I've been to 17 African countries, and they were all equipped with AK-47s. Also: Guess what were the first weapons, the young state of Israel was equipped with in 1948? AK-47 machine guns, Makarov pistols and T-34 tanks.

The Soviet Union and China were among the largest arms dealers in the world and selling cheap weapons to anyone who was willing pay was a lucrative business with the added bonus of creating an economical dependency.

I think the best criteria is any country taht at some point had the title Peoples Republic or Socialist Republic in its name. The list you provided is pretty comprehensive, only you got the wrong Congo: the former Peoples Republic is the smaller one of the two Congos.

 

Hey come one, Israel in 1948 was something very special. Now, find me a couple of other exceptions, please :-) And no, as you said, but that is not true: China and Soviet Union provided weaponry to countries of the Communist block. I challenge you to show me Western bloc countries equipped with AK-47 (excluding legacy situations, like post 1989 Bulgaria and so).

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I challenge you to show me Western bloc countries equipped with AK-47

 

India, Indonesia, Kenya, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Togo, to name a few. I can supply the pictures if need be but I am really not that interested in winning arguments here. So lets stick to the topic.

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I challenge you to show me Western bloc countries equipped with AK-47

 

India, Indonesia, Kenya, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Togo, to name a few. I can supply the pictures if need be but I am really not that interested in winning arguments here. So lets stick to the topic.

 

Oh, I forgot the two biggest receivers of Soviet Weaponry: Iraq and Syria

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There is this kind of final test: are (or, rarely, were) the Armed Forces of a given country equipped with AK-47's? If yes, then the country was at some moment part of the Communist block.

 

If we take your logic several steps further then Australia was until recently a State of the USA with its involvement as an international partner in the development of the F-35 fighter, plus all the other military equipment we purchase from The States. Now however we are a province of France with the single largest military contract awarded to a French submarine firm. At one stage we were a small town in Germany with the purchase of Leopard tanks.

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Can we please get back to the topic?!

 

We have a good list of the countries of the Communist Block and their satellites. That should be good enough.

 

The question remains: Should the category only include monuments that remain in those countries - that's what "Relics of Communism" really means (in the same way as for example "Relics of the Confederacy" could only be found in the southern states of the US)? Or should the category include any monument that is designed in communist style - like the a fore mentioned Che Guevara Monument in Bolivia, Trotsky's grave in Mexico or monuments commemorating the Paris Commune or the Spanish Civil War - in which case it should be called "Relics of the Communist Movement."

I think the decision should be made only between those two ideas. Everything else that reminds of the conflict between the Communist Block and the Western World should be in an extra "Cold War" category.

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I found a controversial bust of Lenin in the interesting London borough town of Islington, commemorating Lenin's residence there before the 1917 revolution. The busy is in the Communist heroic style. So I think that Relics of the Communist Movement is the way to approach these remnants.

 

To my mind, statues located only in formerly communist countries would be too restrictive to make a good category.

 

A Cold War category - hmmmmmm :)

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I just checked the "Political Revolutions" category and found a Che Guevara bust in El Salvador and a monument in Stockholm for Swedes who fought in the (communist) Thälmann Battalion in the Spanish Civil War. I think both would meet the spirit of this category.

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That brings up an interesting question: Could EVERY potential Relics of Communist Movement waymark fot wholly within the existing Politicsl Revolutions category? If so, this proposed Communist Relics would be redundant.

 

I had the same problem in a much narrower way when I was trying to think about a category dedicated to the Texas War of Independence from Mexico, except that that category, apart from being redundant, was not very global as well. It would have been completely confined to N America, and most waymarks would be in the US state of Texas, with a few in Washington DC, or Mexico.

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"Relics of the Communist Movement."

 

I vote Yes for this idea otherwise it's too restrictive

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... otherwise it's too restrictive

 

While I don't think that a proposal that in its original form covered 50 countries on four continents is more restrictive than - for example - "Belgian Benchmarks", I would go with the extended version too, but make sure that it only covers monuments and the like and not every place that once held a communist poster.

 

I will also get started with a "Relics of the Cold War" category, but I would like to get this one going first.

 

Guess all we have to do now is wait for the leader who got this discussion started.

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I challenge you to show me Western bloc countries equipped with AK-47

 

India, Indonesia, Kenya, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Togo, to name a few. I can supply the pictures if need be but I am really not that interested in winning arguments here. So lets stick to the topic.

 

Indonesia was never equiped with such weapons. Since "ever" the Indonesian Armed Forces rifle has been the M-16. The others were part of the Communist Bloc, which doesn't mean they were communists but in a Cold War scenario of "us" and them", they were "them". India was "them" as Pakistan was "us". As became clear in the short war between these two states over Cachemira.

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That brings up an interesting question: Could EVERY potential Relics of Communist Movement waymark fot wholly within the existing Politicsl Revolutions category? If so, this proposed Communist Relics would be redundant.

 

I had the same problem in a much narrower way when I was trying to think about a category dedicated to the Texas War of Independence from Mexico, except that that category, apart from being redundant, was not very global as well. It would have been completely confined to N America, and most waymarks would be in the US state of Texas, with a few in Washington DC, or Mexico.

 

The more I think about it, I can see any redundancy. Most of the actual relics still available were built / created / etc, more than 50 years after the actual Revolutions leading to Communist regimes. About the Texan War any possible waymark will fit well in the the "catch all" category I created, for wars without a specific category.

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Anyone working on this category? The more I think about it, the more I think it could be cool --

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Anyone working on this category? The more I think about it, the more I think it could be cool --

 

I would love to work on this. But I wasn't the one starting it. If Torgut does not want to continue, you and I could try to make this work. But I'd like to have an OK from Torgut first, I am not one going around poaching other peoples ideas.

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Anyone working on this category? The more I think about it, the more I think it could be cool --

 

I would love to work on this. But I wasn't the one starting it. If Torgut does not want to continue, you and I could try to make this work. But I'd like to have an OK from Torgut first, I am not one going around poaching other peoples ideas.

 

That was my question: Is Torgut working on it, or did he put a team together, or what? :)

 

I agree -- poaching (except for eggs) is not something I would do. :)

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Hey, we can work together on this one.

 

Good to hear!

 

I will be busy for the rest of this week, but next week we can get some serious work done,

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All rightie... if you like, contact me by message... sometimes I forget to visit the forums for a long time.

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Hey :rolleyes:

What happened to this idea? I think it is great and would like to join a group if you created one?

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Hey :rolleyes:

What happened to this idea? I think it is great and would like to join a group if you created one?

 

I think we should both contact Torgut directly and get this started all over again.

 

Happy New Year!

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That brings up an interesting question: Could EVERY potential Relics of Communist Movement waymark fot wholly within the existing Politicsl Revolutions category? If so, this proposed Communist Relics would be redundant.

I think this is a valid question. I also believe that a game like Waymarking should be free of political judgments. But if this category does go through, I've got the perfect "Relics of Communism" waymark in mind.

 

JansenLonnquist_11vermont04_nat.jpg

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