Clues???

[+hcook1]

I have a question for the caching community that I am pondering:

 

In general, what it the opinion of the geocaching community about

providing clues to the solution of a cache if you are

not the cache owner?

 

Recently, I solved a particularly challenging puzzle cache. After I posted the find, I received e-mail from several different cachers asking for clues to the solution. I provided what I thought were very general clues based on the information that was provided by the cacher asking the question. A little while after, I got to thinking that what I did was wrong and if I were the cache owner I might feel slighted. In addition, I also realized that it might not be fair to other cachers that are struggling with the solution. In the end, I started feeling rather badly about the fact that I did it.

 

So here is my quandry: Was I wrong to provide the clues?

 

I can make good arguments on both sides of the question. Afterall, I did not post the clues/solution in my log or the forums. I myself have asked cache owners for help when I was stumped on a puzzle and very general clues were provided. I tried to follow this lead, but I realized that this should be responsibility/privledge of the cache owner.

 

How does the rest of the community feel about this?

 

For me, in the future I will be refering any questions of this type to the cache owner...

 

People may not remember exactly what you did, or what you said,

... but they will always remember how you made them feel.

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

Well I wouldn't think you did anything wrong.

 

I just don't ever think of this as a competition. I know plenty that do, but they're silly.

 

Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful

[skydiver]

Excellent question. Here's my experience on the subject.

 

I have a cache that I hid that involves a rather complex puzzle to figure out the cache location. It literally took me several months to put everything together and make it all work. I gave the cache a 5 start difficulty rating, which I felt was adequate warning that this was a difficult hunt for those that may not be interested in such a challange.

Since then, I've had one finder threaten to give out clues, because he felt it was too difficult, and actually included a little hint right in his log.

I also had another pair of cachers bring their research material to an event, which in turn tipped off another cacher that was having trouble getting started.

 

Needless to say, both actions left me feeling extreemly slighted. Why should I spend months of my time putting together what one cacher called "one of the top three caches within a 60 mile radius", if others are going to disrespect my hard work, and undermine my efforts?

 

People have asked me questions about this cache, and sometimes I'll give a little hint, but only when I feel that the hint doesn't disrecpect the hard work other cachers may be putting into the hunt, who don't want to ask for help. As the cache owner, I feel it's my prerogative to decide which clues/hints get handed out, and which do not.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[+Renegade Knight]

Did the cache description say don't give out clues?

 

If not, no big deal.

 

I had a cache that was a very difficult find. It stumped the best in the valley when I placed it. When I realized the area had been trashed and was ready to archive the cache I emailed those who posted a skunk a clue that required a little research. Call it a thanks for posting a skunk and doing things right.

 

They figured it out and as it happens they had a beer and pizza event that night. EVERYONE and their dog tagged along and much to my amazement I got about 20 logs on that cache the day before I archived it.

 

I supposed I could of got bent. But why? I didn't prohibit people from sharing the hint, and they had a good time. Which was the point anyay.

 

Skydivers cache has a different premis behind it other than just being a fiendish hide.

 

==============================

Wherever you go there you are.

[Jamethiel]

Before I start: I usually write under Jennifer&Dean, this is my personal acct since this is MY OPINION and not Deans.

Geocaching should be fun. If puzzles are so hard that folks get annoyed enough to stop looking, and start saying negative things about the hider due to thir frustration, that isn't "having fun".

I like solving the puzzles and find that when I get stuck, a small hint will help massively. I have no problem asking for hints. It doesn't embarass me that I don't think along the same lines that other people do.

Some owners aren't into hints at all and believe that if you can't figure it out on your own, you shouldn't be EVER able to find that cache.

I believe that is wrong.

If I give a single hint to someone and they later are able to solve the puzzle, that's great! They still have to solve it and still have to learn whatever the puzzle is trying to teach.

I learned alot from Skydiver's Scarabaeus. It was intensely satisfying to solve the puzzle. We haven't been to the cache location yet, but have it on out to do list. And yes, I gave a very obvious hint at the event. I am sorry if it annoyed Skydiver and I do realize I should have asked him if I could even give hints, since he was there.

And I do know someone who is stuck on that cache and has given up due to being annoyed that it requires you to "think like Skydiver". I really liked the cache so far and it is in my top 3 for the area. Top 3 HARD caches, that is.

So, IMHO, give small,leading hints unless the owner says on his page that hint requests should be referred to him!

-Jennifer

[+Wander Lost]

As somone who also has a puzzle cache, I can tell you I personally don't mind. In fact part of my enjoyment of the cache I placed was reading the emails from people who were stumped asking for a hint. It let me know that they were working on it and enjoying the challenge.

 

I would give them good hints. Hints that would require them to continue the work on their own but tell them which fork in the road to take.

 

I've had a few of the finders give out hints to other cachers. They have all respected the spirit of the puzzle and only given a nudge in the right direction and that's fine with me. I think most cacher's who do puzzle caches don't want to spoil the challenge for others.

 

We're all here, because we're not 'all there'.

 

[skydiver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jamethiel:

Geocaching should be fun. If puzzles are so hard that folks get annoyed enough to stop looking, and start saying negative things about the hider due to thir frustration, that isn't "having fun".

---

If someone is so obsesive with geocaching that an inablility to solve a puzzle cache requires them to say negative things about the hider .. then that's their personal problem, not mine or anyone elses.

quote:

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Some owners aren't into hints at all and believe that if you can't figure it out on your own, you shouldn't be EVER able to find that cache.

I believe that is wrong.

---

Why? I don't recall when I signed up for geocaching getting a written guarantee that I'd be able to find every cache I attempted. Nobody has a god given right to find every cache. If they did, they'd all be 1/1's.

quote:

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If I give a single hint to someone and they later are able to solve the puzzle, that's great! They still have to solve it and still have to learn whatever the puzzle is trying to teach.

---

But shouldn't the decision of what's a 'single hint' vs. a dead giveaway be up to the cache owner? I don't understand the concept that once one has found a cache, they earn the right to distribute whatever information they want about it.

quote:

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I learned alot from Skydiver's Scarabaeus. It was intensely satisfying to solve the puzzle.

---

Awsome. Glad to hear it.

quote:

---

And I do know someone who is stuck on that cache and has given up due to being annoyed that it requires you to "think like Skydiver".

---

Oh well. Maybe they'll go hide a cache that requires me to think like them. I honestly look forward to the challenge.

quote:

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So, IMHO, give small,leading hints unless the owner says on his page that hint requests should be referred to him!

---

So it's OK for me to move your caches to a location that I think is more appropriate, and post the new coordinates sice you didn't mention on the cache page that I shouldn't do that? Don't say that's not the same. Giving away hints to a hard puzzle, and moving a cache container are identical. Both compeltely disrespect the spirit in which the cache was placed.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[Jamethiel]

The spirit I place caches in is for the fun. If folks tell me they didn't have fun, then I may have not done enough work on my cache.

If I have to hold someone's hand through several steps in order to make them able to find my cache, I will. And I have. Caches are ment to be findable. The harder the puzzle, the more work you may need to put into finding it.

If I placed a puzzle cache you couldn't solve, would it drive you nuts? If after 3 weeks, would you write me for a hint? Or would you let it just sit there, staring at you every time you logged on?

I wouldn't move a cache container. You should know better than that. But I would help someone who was unable to solve the puzzle to find part of the coordinates for that container.

We should agree to disagree, cause we aren't gonna agree.

-Jennifer

[Steak N Eggs]

Wow skidiver almost a year of being registerd...

 

I dont mind if clues are giving as long as it's not giving the cache away. There were times I needed help and got it, sometimes from the owner but it was never really GIVIN to me. I like the hunt, I like the work if its a puzzle cache, I like the uniqueness (spelling) if its something else. All in all if its just a little hint or a nudge in the right direction, I dont see any porblem. If its an all out givaway, then it ruins the cache for "who ever". 1/1 to a 5/5, give me something in the middle, But I wont baulk at a 5/5.......

 

"My gps say's it RIGHT HERE".

http://www.w6hy.org

KF6VFH

TOYOTA To Often Yuppies Overprice This Auto

[+leatherman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skydiver:

Needless to say, both actions left me feeling extreemly slighted. Why should I spend months of my time putting together what one cacher called "one of the top three caches within a 60 mile radius", if others are going to disrespect my hard work, and undermine my efforts?

---

 

Needing three or more cachers brains to solve your puzzle, should prove your a genius.

Isn't that enough of an EGO boost? I don't see how that would make you feel slighted.

 

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

[+Rye_and_Leigh]

Having created a few puzzle caches of our own, we'd feel a little bit bad if we found that people had been swapping answers/clues/hints regarding our caches. If someone has a question or is completely stuck, it seems that they should ask the cache placer. If a prticular cache is too hard for someone or not to their liking, perhaps they should skip it. Not everyone has the ability or want to make it to difficult 10-mile-hike mountaintop caches; should they be given a free find log just because they don't want to expend the effort? We'd say "no".

 

Isn't this whole issue just a re-wording of the age-old question "I didn't find the cache, but I know I was in the right place, so can I log a find?" Duh.

[+regoarrarr]

For Mario's Tower I devised a website that lets you take clues if you want them. These could be clues to the puzzles, or clues to the actual cache locations.

 

I decided that each clue would be worth a certain amount of points, and each stage found worth 100 points. So the more clues you use, the less your total "score" is for solving it.

 

Some people didn't care, and just wanted to solve it. Others have decided that a "perfect" score was important to them and have as such avoided the clues. I let the scoreboard stand for itself.

 

Obviously this isn't possible for all types of caches or if one doesn't have handy access to a website, but that's my experience

[skydiver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jamethiel:

The spirit I place caches in is for the fun. If folks tell me they didn't have fun, then I may have not done enough work on my cache.

---

Or, you may be trying to please too many people.

quote:

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If I have to hold someone's hand through several steps in order to make them able to find my cache, I will. And I have.

---

I've got no problem with that. Your cache, your prerogative.

quote:

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Caches are ment to be findable.

---

But not by everyone, or as I said, they'd all be 1/1's.

quote:

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The harder the puzzle, the more work you may need to put into finding it.

If I placed a puzzle cache you couldn't solve, would it drive you nuts?

---

MOst certainly! And THAT where the fun is!

quote:

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If after 3 weeks, would you write me for a hint?

---

Heck no! That would spoil the fun!

quote:

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Or would you let it just sit there, staring at you every time you logged on?

---

Yup. I may be addicted to geocaching, but I'm not so obsessive that I need to find every cache. I'd hunt until I stopped having fun, and then give up and post a no find. Maybe I'd try again sometime in the future ... or maybe not. But either way, I'd feel satisfied that I did my best and had fun trying.

quote:

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I wouldn't move a cache container. You should know better than that. But I would help someone who was unable to solve the puzzle to find part of the coordinates for that container.

---

But there's no difference. Both actions adjust the intended difficuly of the hunt. If you freely adjust the difficulty in one respect, why not another?

quote:

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We should agree to disagree, cause we aren't gonna agree.

-Jennifer

---

Which is why it's sad I feel I need to add the following disclaimer to all the my cache pages.

 

Self Evident Disclaimer: The creator/owner of this cache retains full rights to relocate the container when appropriate, and decide when, and to whom, clues may, or may not, be given out regarding it's location, solution, or method in which it was hidden or camouflaged. Those who have found the cache, or even begun working on the cache hunt, should make every effort to refrain from giving away information about the hunt (even inadvertently) to those who have not reached the same stage, and should rehide the container in the same location and method in which is was found. All requests for hints should be directed to the cache owner. This disclaimer SHOULD go without saying for ALL caches, and it's presence here is merely for the benefit of those who insist it be in writing.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[Jamethiel]

If you are gonna add the disclaimer... why not mention that anyone rumored to be working on puzzles while not alone will have their logs deleted as they may have had help solving the puzzle.

*smile* I guess Dean and I are gonna lose a few logs since we work on puzzles together. Except for the logic circuit one, which I was out of town and couldn't be there while he solved it.

Why not let folks solve the puzzles using all the resources available to them. And, yes, I'd even consider the placer a resource. With enough beer and pizza, lots of folks can become resources to draw from. If I've worked 7 hours on a cache puzzle, and someone says "you are going about it wrong, think about X, not Y" and that leads me to the solution, YAY!

On the other hand, if you feel that this is a competitive game instead of cooperative game, play it as you wish. I kinda like the folks I've met through geocaching and most of them aren't too strict about what constitutes help.

Of course, I do routinely ask if my minivan can make it to a trailhead, and that may constitute cheating, as part of the fun should be figuring out the road conditions on your own.

-Jennifer

[+pater47]

I would not want any hints or clues unless I was completely stumped. At that point, I would contact the cache owner first to make sure I wasn't missing something. Likewise,I would suggest to those soliciting clues from me to try the cache owner first. After that, I might needle some of the others that have found it to pry something out of them. Of course, many of my Mississippi caching buddies would be just as likely to give me wrong information just to watch me walk in circles!

 

What I really don't care for is people giving me clues that I didn't ask for, which I've heard of a few instances of this happening.

 

I don't want anybody telling me how the book ends.

 

I don't want people blowing the climax of the movie.

 

I don't want to know what my Christmas present is before I open it.

 

I don't want to know where the cache is before I even look for it.

 

Visit the Mississippi Geocaching Forum at

http://pub98.ezboard.com/bgeocachingms

[skydiver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jamethiel:

If you are gonna add the disclaimer... why not mention that anyone rumored to be working on puzzles while not alone will have their logs deleted as they may have had help solving the puzzle.

*smile* I guess Dean and I are gonna lose a few logs since we work on puzzles together. Except for the logic circuit one, which I was out of town and couldn't be there while he solved it.

Why not let folks solve the puzzles using all the resources available to them. And, yes, I'd even consider the placer a resource. With enough beer and pizza, lots of folks can become resources to draw from. If I've worked 7 hours on a cache puzzle, and someone says "you are going about it wrong, think about X, not Y" and that leads me to the solution, YAY!

On the other hand, if you feel that this is a competitive game instead of cooperative game, play it as you wish. I kinda like the folks I've met through geocaching and most of them aren't too strict about what constitutes help.

Of course, I do routinely ask if my minivan can make it to a trailhead, and that may constitute cheating, as part of the fun should be figuring out the road conditions on your own.

-Jennifer

---

 

Couples working together is a whole different can of worms that I'm not going to get into, other than simply saying that I have no problem with how you and Dean work together since you log all yur finds under one joint account. Beyond that, it's a a subject for an entirely different thread (and one that I'm sure has been discussed at length somewhere here already).

 

But back to the subject at hand. The difficulty of the cache hunt should be EXACTLY THE SAME for the 1000th finder as it was for the 1st finder. And the only way that can happen is that the first 999 people who found the cache smirk, wink, giggle, and promptly change the subject when asked for hints. Yes, the cache placer can be a source of clues, and it's up to the placer to decide what clues they are willing to give. But the other 999 finders should be left out and know to keep their trap shut.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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[Jamethiel]

Since I don't keep my trap shut, I'm just going to continue enjoying geocaching and not let anyone tell me who I can and cannot help. I am a grownup and can make my own mistakes and decisions. I do not believe that a simple hint or nudge REALLY hurts anything.

Telling someone the final solution is stupid.

Leading someone onto the right path is only kindness.

I know better than to do someone's homework for them. But I won't NOT help someone who cannot answer a complex riddle, if all I have to do is tell them it is a riddle to get them back on the path.

Let folks play, and don't worry so much about it.

-Jennifer

[+yumitori]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skydiver:

 

Since then, I've had one finder threaten to give out clues, because he felt it was too difficult, and actually included a little hint right in his log.

---

 

'Threaten' is a loaded term. Perhaps a word that carries less negative connotations would be a better choice.

 

The first finders said, essentially, if anyone wants a hint, to bring money. They included an emoticon. The second finder (me) said folks seeking hints need bring no money. I didn't include any smilies. The first couple were assumed to be joking; I was assumed not to be.

 

I was taken to task in public, putting me on the defensive, when a parallel private conversation with another cacher went much more cordially.

 

I should have known better than to debate philisophical issues after having been angered. I apologize for any inappropriate responses I made during that conversation.

 

But I continue to have an equal right to my own opinions concerning the topic. You need not accept them, but you could respect them, just as you expect others to respect yours.

 

Incidentally, the 'little hint' was inadvertent.

 

Ron/yumitori

[+jeeplife]

I have to admit I am one of the guilty people that emailed hcook1, although I wasn't actually asking for the final answer. But thankfully all Harold provided me was with the SAME info that was on the cache page which I decided to reread and solved it without too much trouble. Happy Trails...

[+fractal]

As a creater of cache puzzles, I don't mind if people give hints to others who ask, but I prefer people to come right to the source and ask me for help. I think I even said on one of my pages "email me for additional hints" or something like that.. I just enjoy the interaction and messing with people's minds

I love getting the email or instant message back from them when all of a sudden everything clicks and they figure it out...

 

I'm always happy to help, so email ME next time

 

-fractal

[+hcook1]

Thanks to all who responded. From the tone of the discussion, it is clear that there are no rules or preconceived notions about providing clues to caches. The bottom line is that it is up to each individual cacher to decide for themselves how they want to deal with this situation.

 

For me, I greatly appreciate the effort that goes into all caches, but especially the more sophisticated caches. I personally don't want to do anything to undermine the responsibility/privledge/enjoyment of those who put the effort into these caches. In the future, I will not be providing clues to my solutions without the permission of the cache owner. I want to continue to support the sport and see it thrive. For me the fun is in the solution and the search.

 

--- hcook1

 

People may not remember exactly what you did, or what you said,

... but they will always remember how you made them feel.