Removal of caches in Washington's Manchester State Park

[Moun10Bike]

It’s happened elsewhere in the country, and I was worried that it might happen here. Now it appears that it has. A Washington state park has apparently sent a ranger out to remove geocaches located within park borders. Not only that, but the ranger who posted that he removed the caches in question has blamed geocachers for destroying the surrounding area "due to digging, trampling and tearing up vegetation."

 

The caches that have been removed are:

 

Manchester Mines

Missing in Manchester

 

I’m starting to seriously think that we need to form a geocaching club in the state. Without an organized, recognized & respected political voice representing our hobby, we risk losing more and more public land for geocaching.

 

Moun10Bike's Geocaching Pages

[+Mr. Snazz]

Interesting that 'cheesy' blames caching, and then makes note of the damage he's observed over a seven year period...

 

Its times like this that I'm espescially thankful for all the BLM land around Bend. With the exception of a few sites, I'd be very surprised if any BLM rangers took issue with geocaching. The one I met while caching near some caves was glad that people were enjoying the area for something more than drinking.

 

[+oregone]

i've checked his logs on the above caches, and his profile. how do we know that cheesy is really a park ranger? like i said, i must be overlooking something.

 

all rights reserved, all wrongs reversed

[Moun10Bike]

quote:

---

Originally posted by oregone:

i've checked his logs on the above caches, and his profile. how do we know that cheesy is really a park ranger? like i said, i must be overlooking something.

---

 

You know, the more that I read cheesy's logs, the less that I believe he (or she) is really a Manchester State Park ranger. What led me to say that he appears to be is the "Any cache placed at Manchester State Park will be removed by Park Rangers" line. However, I would expect a ranger to provide a real name and contact info.

 

Hopefully we'll know soon whether or not an official representative has truly removed the caches.

 

Moun10Bike's Geocaching Pages

[+travisl]

*whiff whiff*

 

Hmm. Smells like troll.

 

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

[+oregone]

if cheesy is a park ranger, then i question his professionalism.

Here in portland, we've had the very fortunate experience of having a park employee check out the caches in the tualatin hills parks and recreation district (west portland, for those not from here).

sometimes the caches get removed (and the cache owners can pick them up at the park office), and sometimes you can find his business card in the cache.

but i'm not an expert on THPRD parks, so you can check out the thread here.

My point is that if this is indeed an actual ranger, he could probably stand to take lessons from the authorities in the portland area.

 

all rights reserved, all wrongs reversed

[gapertimmy]

definately a troll

i'd have to vote on this one being a troll. a real agency employee wouldn't have referred to him/herself as "ranger dick"

 

furthermore, they would be more professional about removing the cache, much like the folks in PDX did.

 

to me, this appears to be someone who either saw people finding this cache, or stumbled upon it and didn't like the idea of people damaging the vegetation.

 

this reminds me alot of an individual that removed "bolts" from rock climbing routes near Vantage on the columbia river, someone just on a solo mission to spoil others fun

 

GAPER!

[gapertimmy]

definately a troll

i'd have to vote on this one being a troll. a real agency employee wouldn't have referred to him/herself as "ranger dick"

 

furthermore, they would be more professional about removing the cache, much like the folks in PDX did.

 

to me, this appears to be someone who either saw people finding this cache, or stumbled upon it and didn't like the idea of people damaging the vegetation.

 

this reminds me alot of an individual that removed "bolts" from rock climbing routes near Vantage on the columbia river, someone just on a solo mission to spoil others fun

 

GAPER!

[+Wander Lost]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

 

I’m starting to seriously think that we need to form a geocaching club in the state. Without an organized, recognized & respected political voice representing our hobby, we risk losing more and more public land for geocaching.

 

---

 

I agree with you on this. Cachers in other states have set up official clubs and have had great success working with officials. I think the key is something that has been stated over and over again in the forums: Cooperation. If we work with officials as an organized group we can get policies in place that will allow caching. Hopefully over time we can win them over and get it allowed in more and more areas.

 

As far as Cheesy being a Troll, something does smell bad. Can anyone confirm that the caches have been taken?

 

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

[+MattandLaura]

Perhaps we should e-mail him and tell him about Yogi and Booboo being at it again. I agree with the others about a troll. At least I hope so.

 

[igor71]

Cheesy is either a overzealous Forest Service intern or a grade-A dingus.

 

As he/she can barely weave together two sentences, so the official capacity has to be questioned.

 

No argument about keeping the environmental impact to a minimum, but this sucka doesn't get it - or understand the cleanup value that geocachers provide.

 

Cheesy, if you're out there - get a grip!

[+leatherman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by igor71:

As he/she can barely weave together two sentences, so the official capacity has to be questioned.

---

Whether this person is a troll or not. The fact that he/she has poor grammar or spelling has nothing to do with it.

I question the intuitive awareness of those that use this argument.

It's sad to say, however, 75 percent of government employees have poor grammar and spelling. Unless they went on to extended education and these subjucts were focused on.

Proper grammar and spelling are not a forced issue in forum discussions.

 

Anyways if this person is a ranger, I think it's kind of petty to use GEOCACHING.COM to search for caches in the park for removal.

Furthermore I think if this was a real professional he/she should have posted contact info. Even reference to implied bylaws or laws.

Pretty questionable.

 

Preperation, the first law to survival.

[+Belleterre]

Here's part of an e-mail that I got from another cacher who I asked about the situation:

all she (the ranger) could say was that it was illegal and anyone found placing or hunting a cache would be cited if they were found off an established trail.

I sent Cheesy a polite e-mail asking to get the caches from him, since I live in the area, but I don't expect an answer.

Has anyone talked to people at the state level to see what their policy is on caches in the state parks?

[+Belleterre]

I just talked to another local cacher who personally talked to Ranger Dick (Cheesy) this morning. At least the guy did say that maybe he needed to talk to the state people to see what their policy actually is.

[+Renegade Knight]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belleterre:

I just talked to another local cacher who personally talked to Ranger Dick (Cheesy) this morning. At least the guy did say that maybe he needed to talk to the state people to see what their policy actually is.

---

 

They may be able to cite you for abandoned property. The same cheeesy (pun not intended) law the NPS uses to confiscate caches. But thats about it.

 

Sooner or later we will all be a bit more organized. Parks will have geocaching representitvies on their homepages and clubs will have homepages that link to the parks.

 

Until then we will muddle through.

 

Cheesy is a bit ignorant though.

Degradation over 7 years is due to population pressure not geocaching. Geocaching is NEW.

[Duke of the Desert]

I contacted the assistant regional manager of the State Park

Department for the Puget Sound area. His name is John Johns, his

phone number is 253-288-2563, and he is a very reasonable fellow. He

thinks that GeoCaching is a cool idea, and agrees that the state

parks belong to us all. "Encouraging people to experience our state parks is a good thing" He said that he is unaware of any "Ranger

Dick" at the Manchester Mines park. He did not authorize removing

the caches in question. He advised that there is no mandate to remove any caches. He did however explain that several caches

on state park lands have been removed due to safety concerns. He

believes there are real liablility concerns. Having a bit of

experience in this area, I can assure Mr. Johns that the liability

concern is unwarrented. He also expressed concern that sensitive

areas may be damaged by foot traffic. Patches of poisen ivy or poisen oak do not constitute a sensitive area I don't believe, although Mr. Johns did not specifically say that.

 

We are both in search of the mysterious "Ranger Dick". Should anyone happen out to the mines anytime soon, any inquiries into the identity of "Ranger Dick" would certainly be appreciated. As I intend to meet with the regional assistant manager in the very near future, I think it would be productive if "Ranger Dick" were present at the time.

 

Mr. Johns expressed an interest in meeting with members of the

Geocaching community to work out a protocal for placing caches on

state park lands. He also stated that anyone may call his office to

find out who to contact for permission in placing caches on state

park land.

 

"it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" Acts 26:14

[+Wander Lost]

I know it is short notice but I wonder what Mr. Johns is doing Saturday. We'll all be together down at Flaming Gyser for the Roundup. His office must be in the general area since he has a 253 area code.

 

If he can't make it, maybe this weekend would be a good chance for everyone to discuss Moun10Bike's idea for a geocaching club.

[gapertimmy]

The Plot Thickens....

This sounds all to familiar to a ranger out in Icicle Creek near Leavenworth that has it in for climbers and stakes out certain parking lots for people who choose not to participate in the fee demo program, but don't get me started on that!

 

Its really too bad that an agency official has taken such a childish approach to dealing with a cache that may/or may not have caused negative impact to the resource.

 

I wish you guys luck in getting to the bottom of this

 

GAPER!

[gapertimmy]

The Plot Thickens....

This sounds all to familiar to a ranger out in Icicle Creek near Leavenworth that has it in for climbers and stakes out certain parking lots for people who choose not to participate in the fee demo program, but don't get me started on that!

 

Its really too bad that an agency official has taken such a childish approach to dealing with a cache that may/or may not have caused negative impact to the resource.

 

I wish you guys luck in getting to the bottom of this

 

GAPER!

[Moun10Bike]

Thanks, Duke, for making the call to the State Parks Department! It sounds like Cheesy may be nothing more than a troll. I wonder if the Manchester caches have actually been removed or not.

 

I would love to be involved in organizing a geocaching club to represent our interests in the state. This incident, even if it is the case of a troll at work, indicates to me that we need to be ready for the inevitable time when we do run into accessibility issues. I like Wander Lost's idea of discussing organization of an official club at this weekend's big Geocacher Roundup. I will be unable to make the event, but count me in on helping to get things rolling.

 

Moun10Bike's Geocaching Pages

[+Wander Lost]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

 

I like Wander Lost's idea of discussing organization of an official club at this weekend's big Geocacher Roundup. I will be unable to make the event, but count me in on helping to get things rolling.

 

---

 

We'll just vote you in as president inabsentia.

 

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

[+Wander Lost]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moun10Bike:

 

I like Wander Lost's idea of discussing organization of an official club at this weekend's big Geocacher Roundup. I will be unable to make the event, but count me in on helping to get things rolling.

 

---

 

We'll just vote you in as president inabsentia.

 

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

[+Zzzoey & illDRIVEuNav]

Maybe I missed something, but if Ranger Dick is a troll, the cache would probably still be there. Or maybe it is a geo-trasher with an attitude, and they took the cache and decided to play with you. The whole thing is very odd. They didn't give you a way to pick up your goods, they didn't give a warning. It seems very unprofessional. I have read about geo-trashers in the UK, and I find that very sad and disheartening. Most forest service (or as some of my friends call them forest circus) supervisors are reasonable and receptive to new ideas. They chose the line of work they did because they enjoy the outdoors, and most aren't gonna think that geocachers are harming anything. To be real honest, I have seen more trash and garbage in places NOT near caches. Nothing like finding a couch and loveseat smashed to bits, broken glass, beer cans, toilet paper and fast food garbage in public places, but it has been happening for years. I think for the most part we cachers are a conscientous lot, and don't intend to screw it over for the next guy. Hell, I cover my tracks, just so the next cacher can't hone in to it off MY footprints!

 

Besides, don't you think getting poison oak is bad enough? I hope, if Dick is a troll, he got it bad.

[+Zzzoey & illDRIVEuNav]

Maybe I missed something, but if Ranger Dick is a troll, the cache would probably still be there. Or maybe it is a geo-trasher with an attitude, and they took the cache and decided to play with you. The whole thing is very odd. They didn't give you a way to pick up your goods, they didn't give a warning. It seems very unprofessional. I have read about geo-trashers in the UK, and I find that very sad and disheartening. Most forest service (or as some of my friends call them forest circus) supervisors are reasonable and receptive to new ideas. They chose the line of work they did because they enjoy the outdoors, and most aren't gonna think that geocachers are harming anything. To be real honest, I have seen more trash and garbage in places NOT near caches. Nothing like finding a couch and loveseat smashed to bits, broken glass, beer cans, toilet paper and fast food garbage in public places, but it has been happening for years. I think for the most part we cachers are a conscientous lot, and don't intend to screw it over for the next guy. Hell, I cover my tracks, just so the next cacher can't hone in to it off MY footprints!

 

Besides, don't you think getting poison oak is bad enough? I hope, if Dick is a troll, he got it bad.

[+Belleterre]

This possible explanation is also included in the cache description:

 

WAC 352-32-090 Games. Playing games in a manner and/or location which subjects people or personal property, the park resource or facilities to risk of injury or damage shall be prohibited. Any violation of this section is an infraction under chapter 7.84 RCW.

 

It sounds to me like they would also have to prohibit baseball, catch, frisbee, volleyball, basketball, soccer, tag, hide-and-go-seek, cards (it agravates my tendonitis), any board game with small pieces that could be swallowed or stepped on, etc. A precedent has already been set to allow these dangerous/damaging games. Can we claim discrimination or selective enforcement?

[+misguided one]

While at the Summer Roundup we had an opportunity to speak with ranger John Heilbaum. His comments about GEOCaching were positive, and while he could only speak for the Flaming Geyser state park and the Green River Gorge area, he did say that the parks service is not opposed to caching, provided permission is obtained prior to hiding a cache. If they find a cache that they are unaware of, then they treat it as if it were trash and dispose of it.

 

The bottom line is, ask permission or risk having the cache removed.

[+Belleterre]

I checked this morning and both caches are gone. MLB PRO made a log note on the 'Manchester Mines' site that gives some insite into 'Cheesy' and 'Ranger Dick'.

[+leatherman]

I vote that we have an event cache at one of these parks very soon.

A show of presence.

 

Preparation, the first law to survival.

[NW Runner]

Darn, I live near the area and was going to find the Manchester mines cache.

[+Iron Wolf]

As far as Ranger Dick goes, I beleive this person is a looooooser.....end of story ! I guess we'll know more after the scheduled meeting with Duke_ and the regional manager.

 

Moun10bike if you start the club, I'm in. Just curious would the presidency be based on most caches found ? If so I think your a shoe in .

 

Iron Wolf

[+Iron Wolf]

As far as Ranger Dick goes, I beleive this person is a looooooser.....end of story ! I guess we'll know more after the scheduled meeting with Duke_ and the regional manager.

 

Moun10bike if you start the club, I'm in. Just curious would the presidency be based on most caches found ? If so I think your a shoe in .

 

Iron Wolf

[+travisl]

I think it's started:

 

Dandelion Cache and Nopi Soki Saltwater Stash have reportedly been removed by parks officials (see notes on each page by FWadmin):

quote:

---

NOTICE - This cache has been removed by WA State Parks. It was placed without authorization nor consultation of park management.

 

The existence of Geocaches in WA State Parks has been determined to potentially a posed a hazard to the public and/or they have resulted in damage to the park resource.

 

The originator of this geocache may inquire with the lead Ranger in charge of Law Visitor Protection & Law Enforcement at {name of park} State Park regarding the disposition of their cache.

 

WA State Parks will continue to remove any known geocaches that are placed without agency approval and authorization.

 

I can be reached at 360.344.4406 - FWadmin@parks.wa.gov

Thank You.

Steve Shively, WA State Parks - PARKS AND RECREATION COORDINATOR

---

 

So in spite of my comments elsewhere on the subject, if you're placing caches in a Washington State Park, it looks like you'd better ask permission first. And if you have one already in a state park, I think you should check on its status.

 

"Why don't you just ask somebody?"

"No, no. I've got a map. Don't worry about that."

[+CameraThyme]

Changing to Members Only is a great tactic for now. We need to

proactively as a group / club meet with OUR state park officials regarding

cache placement, maintenance and possible guidelines specifically for state

park placements. With our incredible 'membership', we're certain to see

positive things happening in the sport we live - Geocaching.com.

 

We have 4 caches (now 3 ... our NopiSoki Saltwater was pulled) planted at state parks and routinely check on and maintain these caches.

 

CameraThyme

[+CameraThyme]

Changing to Members Only is a great tactic for now. We need to

proactively as a group / club meet with OUR state park officials regarding

cache placement, maintenance and possible guidelines specifically for state

park placements. With our incredible 'membership', we're certain to see

positive things happening in the sport we live - Geocaching.com.

 

We have 4 caches (now 3 ... our NopiSoki Saltwater was pulled) planted at state parks and routinely check on and maintain these caches.

 

CameraThyme

[HangGlider]

quote:

---

Originally posted by travisl:

I think it's started:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=2302 and http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=4968 have reportedly been removed by parks officials (see notes on each page by FWadmin):

[sNIP]

So in spite of my comments elsewhere on the subject, if you're placing caches in a Washington State Park, it looks like you'd better ask permission first. And if you have one already in a state park, I think you should check on its status.

 

---

 

Wonderful. Some state-appointed administrator has a severe case of "Bureaucratitis." "Pose a hazard?" Give me a break! I really have a hard time with this...in case you couldn't tell

 

How long before they tell me what kind of shoes I'm allowed to wear in the park? After all, some shoes may "pose a hazard." Half the kids I see playing in the parks (are they authorized to play in the parks? Did they ask permission?) "pose a hazard."

 

These are public parks - right? I understand and support the need to preserve these areas for future generations. No argument there at all. I would like to see common sense applied though - something which is apparently a contradiction in terms when used in the same sentence with the word "government."

 

So, how much time/energy and how much of our money are they willing to spend removing unauthorized geocaches?

 

I wonder what the real criminals are doing while the rangers are out geocaching.

 

Time to find another state to live in.

 

-HangGlider

[HangGlider]

quote:

---

Originally posted by travisl:

I think it's started:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=2302 and http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=4968 have reportedly been removed by parks officials (see notes on each page by FWadmin):

[sNIP]

So in spite of my comments elsewhere on the subject, if you're placing caches in a Washington State Park, it looks like you'd better ask permission first. And if you have one already in a state park, I think you should check on its status.

 

---

 

Wonderful. Some state-appointed administrator has a severe case of "Bureaucratitis." "Pose a hazard?" Give me a break! I really have a hard time with this...in case you couldn't tell

 

How long before they tell me what kind of shoes I'm allowed to wear in the park? After all, some shoes may "pose a hazard." Half the kids I see playing in the parks (are they authorized to play in the parks? Did they ask permission?) "pose a hazard."

 

These are public parks - right? I understand and support the need to preserve these areas for future generations. No argument there at all. I would like to see common sense applied though - something which is apparently a contradiction in terms when used in the same sentence with the word "government."

 

So, how much time/energy and how much of our money are they willing to spend removing unauthorized geocaches?

 

I wonder what the real criminals are doing while the rangers are out geocaching.

 

Time to find another state to live in.

 

-HangGlider

[+Wander Lost]

Enough talking about this lets do something!

 

Misguided One and I invite anyone who is intrested to our house next weekend to form an official Geocaching club. We live in Auburn and I know that is pretty far south for some people. If anyone closer to the middle would like to host the meeting please speak up. But we need to stop talking about it and actually do it.

 

MG1 will have to work on Saturday morning so we can have the meeting Saturday evening or Sunday. The first order of business will be to select a spokesperson and get an appointment set up with parks officials.

 

Once we confirm a date I'll post coords and a time. We can have a little pot luck or bbq on the grill.

 

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people??

[soup]

I have 2 caches in Washington parks.Morans Mug and Points of Interest, but I live in Orygun. EEkk.. I would love to attend this meeting, and get them on the "WA Park Approval list" but I will just have to get the cliff notes afterwards.

 

I will become a sattelite member, since I go up to WA on a frequent basis. Put in any good words for me that you can think of.

 

aTdHvAaNnKcSe

 

"I put instant soup in a microwave and almost went back in time." -Stephen Wright

[HangGlider]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wander Lost:

_Enough talking about this lets do something!_

---

 

It's a ways from Spokane, but there's a better than even chance I can make it Sat. eve. or Sunday morning. The issue makes the mileage worth it!

 

-HangGlider

[HangGlider]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wander Lost:

_Enough talking about this lets do something!_

---

 

It's a ways from Spokane, but there's a better than even chance I can make it Sat. eve. or Sunday morning. The issue makes the mileage worth it!

 

-HangGlider

[+Uplink]

Count me in also. I know a great spot for a meet.

http://www.ci.renton.wa.us/commserv/parks/coulon.htm

The North Picnic Shelter in the top photo has a rated capacity of 200. It would be a great spot for a meet or two, after which indoors might be better...It is halfway between Kirkland and Tacoma, is accessible by car, boat, airplane, and train, has a geocache (GC8100) N47 30.404 W122 12.119 (coordinates about 200 yards S of this shelter), and is quite scenic. I think the shelter reserves for $15 or something... I will call tomorrow and see (if anyone seems interested).

Erik

(Uplink)

[+mr.toad]

NopiSoki Saltwater Stash GC1368 has been removed by someone calling himself "FWadmin". he claims he can be reached at the following:

 

I can be reached at 360.344.4406 - FWadmin@parks.wa.gov

Thank You. Steve Shively, WA State Parks -

PARKS AND RECREATION COORDINATOR

 

He also says:

NOTICE - This cache has been removed by WA State Parks. It was placed without authorization nor consultation of park management. The existence of Geocaches in WA State Parks has been determined to potentially a posed a hazard to the public and/or they have resulted in damage to the park resource.

[+Seth!]

By now, we have all seen this notice from three geocaches:

quote:

---

NOTICE - This cache has been removed by WA State Parks. It was placed without authorization nor consultation of park management. The existence of Geocaches in WA State Parks has been determined to potentially a posed a hazard to the public and/or they have resulted in damage to the park resource.

 

The originator of this geocache may inquire with the lead Ranger in charge of Law Visitor Protection & Law Enforcement at Illahee State Park regarding the disposition of their cache.

 

WA State Parks will continue to remove any known geocaches that are placed without agency approval and authorization.

 

I can be reached at 360.344.4406 - FWadmin@parks.wa.gov

Thank You.

Steve Shively, WA State Parks - PARKS AND RECREATION COORDINATOR

---

These may be real notices from Mr. Shively, BUT before we get upset with him, we need to be sure. A bit of research reveals the following:

 

Steve Shively is the "Conference Programs & Services Manager" at Fort Worden State Park Conference Center. The park also has a Park Manager, two rangers, and support staff. Shively also maintains the Fort Worden (FW) web site. Shively also serves as the chair of the Evergreen Section of the American Camping Association. His term runs 01/01/01 - 12/31/02. The phone number given in those posts is really his, as is the e-mail address.

 

I have to wonder though, why would the Conference Programs & Services Manager at Fort Worden be removing caches, especially at those other parks? And why choose those to remove instead of the cache in Fort Worden? (An Officer and a Gentleman)

 

We obviously need more information.

 

- Seth!

 

Oh, here's a photo of the man in question: