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Groundspeak's non-premium approach is dead wrong to get new people interested.


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Last weekend I walked over a bridge, counting the number of panels needed to find the final coordinates of a multi-cache. At the end were two young ones and a parent standing with a phone, looking confused. While I got my pen and paper out and read through the formula to obtain the final coordinates, they asked me if I was also geocaching.

 

They were confused, because the map showed that there should be a geocache around here (there wasn't, it was a multi) but them using the Groundspeak app didn't show anything more than the first three lines of text. I told them about the limitation for non-premium members to not see the non-traditional caches and the higher rated ones. But since I just did a couple in the area, I told them to look for them, and then realized that because of the "foresty" area they were more than the 1.5 rating. FML. And theirs.

 

So at the end I logged in with my account to their phone, giving them access to all caches in the area. Then took them with me on the hunt for the multi, which was found. Asked them not to log anything on the phone as it will show up on my name :-P

 

So dear Groundspeak... Why do I have to apologize for your treatment of people who are just starting, who are as confused as a hungry baby in a topless bar, who try to find out how things work and why they don't work for them, who try to see if this is the right hobby for them? Get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only and give people a chance to learn about the game.

 

Edwin

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I hate the new app in general. Geocaching was starting to get big in my area because of the local parks giving free "classes" on it. But now that is going to be almost impossible because they would need everyone to pay for a premium account to see anything more then LPCs. The amount they are limited to is ridiculous, when I first joined the free app was ehh but paying $10 once to see if we like it is a lot different then signing up for a membership. They are basically limited to LPCs and very very few else, most caches in parks are at least a 2 for terrain. So if when I first joined all I could see was anything 1.5 or lower I would have said this is stupid and given up on it. I really dislike the new app in general though, I don't think it was actually ready to launch. Some things are nice but its all aesthetic and much less functional than the old app in my opinion.

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but is a premium membership the only way to use the app to its full capability now?
Yes. For basic members, Groundspeak's app is limited. Only premium members can use it to its full capabilities. For reference, see the Help Center articles:

iPhone Geocaching® app: Premium vs. Basic Membership Features Chart

Android Geocaching® app: Premium vs. Basic Membership Features Chart

 

I hate the new app in general. Geocaching was starting to get big in my area because of the local parks giving free "classes" on it. But now that is going to be almost impossible because they would need everyone to pay for a premium account to see anything more then LPCs.
Our county parks district has intro geocaching courses. They provide students with preloaded handheld GPSrs, so they don't require the students to have a smartphone or to install/configure an app or anything.
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So dear Groundspeak... Why do I have to apologize for your treatment of people who are just starting, who are as confused as a hungry baby in a topless bar, who try to find out how things work and why they don't work for them, who try to see if this is the right hobby for them? Get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only and give people a chance to learn about the game.

I hate the new app in general. Geocaching was starting to get big in my area because of the local parks giving free "classes" on it. But now that is going to be almost impossible because they would need everyone to pay for a premium account to see anything more then LPCs.

I've seen several cachers post that other apps do not apply the same tradition-1.5/1.5 restriction on Basic Members. It may be worth checking some of those out and then you can recommend those apps to new cachers.

 

The list of approved apps is here. I do not have personal experience with all of these apps, so I can't say how they work for Basic Members.

 

Maintaining the website, the database, and the apps is not 'free' to Groundspeak. IMHO, if someone doesn't want to pay for Premium Membership, then they shouldn't expect full access. YMMV.

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

After all the issues with our 1/5/1.5 hides, we've archived all but one.

The couple remaining have D/T high enough that we have few issues today.

 

Making 'em pmo, those confused, hungry babies wouldn't be able to play at all.

Not much of a fix...

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

After all the issues with our 1/5/1.5 hides, we've archived all but one.

The couple remaining have D/T high enough that we have few issues today.

 

Making 'em pmo, those confused, hungry babies wouldn't be able to play at all.

Not much of a fix...

 

not wanting to maintain caches is detrimental, isn't it.

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Our county parks district has intro geocaching courses. They provide students with preloaded handheld GPSrs, so they don't require the students to have a smartphone or to install/configure an app or anything.

 

They don't require, but they also aren't able to give the course based from the smartphone perspective because the only app available on all platforms doesn't allow the import of GPX files or the policy of the listing service doesn't allow temporary caches. So it's bloody hard to get this right.

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Maintaining the website, the database, and the apps is not 'free' to Groundspeak. IMHO, if someone doesn't want to pay for Premium Membership, then they shouldn't expect full access. YMMV.

 

The non-premium membership is already limited with regards to capabilities. What we here talking about is the inability to properly introduce new people because the app provided by the listing service explicitly crapples the experience. For both the beginner and the "mentor".

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

 

The limitation which hadn't been there for 10+ years, and not all caches were moved to PMO. As such your argument is false.

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

 

The limitation which hadn't been there for 10+ years, and not all caches were moved to PMO. As such your argument is false.

 

The old "intro app" did change the way people hide caches around here. PMOs were almost unheard of in this area until it came out. Now many hiders use it for otherwise mundane hides because it keeps the caches safer from new app users.

 

This new iteration will perpetuate the tactics that people use to protect their caches from abuse.

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1465892060[/url]' post='5590779']
1465881802[/url]' post='5590758']

Maintaining the website, the database, and the apps is not 'free' to Groundspeak. IMHO, if someone doesn't want to pay for Premium Membership, then they shouldn't expect full access. YMMV.

 

The non-premium membership is already limited with regards to capabilities. What we here talking about is the inability to properly introduce new people because the app provided by the listing service explicitly crapples the experience. For both the beginner and the "mentor".

 

One possible solution is to allow owners with 2/2 (or combinations of 2/1) to volunteer their cache for basic members using the app.

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Our county parks district has intro geocaching courses. They provide students with preloaded handheld GPSrs, so they don't require the students to have a smartphone or to install/configure an app or anything.

 

They don't require, but they also aren't able to give the course based from the smartphone perspective because the only app available on all platforms doesn't allow the import of GPX files or the policy of the listing service doesn't allow temporary caches. So it's bloody hard to get this right.

 

THIS !!!! the gc app should be cross platform, FULLY featured, and have an EASY process to import/export WAYPOINTS (not caches!!!!) for exactly the types of events you're interested in. This would allow for easy setup, off-and-running of brand new groups of cachers. Sure, if gs wants to start begging / nagging for a premium subscription later on (a week, month, whatever) fine, go for it.... but at least make it possible to get iOS and Android devices GOING without having the embarresment of saying to twelve kids "sorry, you have to pay for this thing before you can play this game, to find out if you like this game".

 

Most importantly, CROSS PLATFORM. that works.

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1465902827[/url]' post='5590796']
1465892167[/url]' post='5590780']
1465882876[/url]' post='5590759']

Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

 

The limitation which hadn't been there for 10+ years, and not all caches were moved to PMO. As such your argument is false.

 

The old "intro app" did change the way people hide caches around here. PMOs were almost unheard of in this area until it came out. Now many hiders use it for otherwise mundane hides because it keeps the caches safer from new app users.

 

This new iteration will perpetuate the tactics that people use to protect their caches from abuse.

 

I noticed I got better logs.

Initially, without the PMO I got the canned "That's one more cache for me" message a lot. Then after Groundspeak dropped the canned message I got a lot of "." or acronym only logs. I got better more meaningful logs with the PMO (except when power caching groups came through, then I got the long cut and paste logs). After a couple of years I dropped the PMO from my caches. One low D/T cache went missing, but it could have been coincidental. The rest are higher D/Ts or easy multistage caches or puzzles.. (Multis and puzzles get better logs).

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I'm happy that there is some limitation on new members. In the old days people had to make an investment into a hand held, find the website, read the rules, manually load coords into a GPS ... the barrier to entry was a bit higher so people had a bit of commitment before they could start.

 

Now all it takes is finding out about the game, and downloading an app. It's way too easy to start without understanding the rules. I've had a few caches go missing because of kids (or adults!) not understanding that you have to replace the cache, or rehide the cache properly. I've adjusted the D/T of some of my hides to make sure that new members cannot see them, or I make them premium.

 

It would be nice though to open up the app a bit once people show a bit of commitment. Maybe after a month or 20 finds or something, they get to see higher D/T. One of the letterboxing sites does this ... you can make your caches available to members only after they have 50 or 100 or whatever finds. It's not perfect, but it does allow cache owners to protect themselves against a 10 year old who downloaded the app and doesn't have a clue.

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I'm happy that there is some limitation on new members. In the old days people had to make an investment into a hand held, find the website, read the rules, manually load coords into a GPS ... the barrier to entry was a bit higher so people had a bit of commitment before they could start.

 

Now all it takes is finding out about the game, and downloading an app. It's way too easy to start without understanding the rules. I've had a few caches go missing because of kids (or adults!) not understanding that you have to replace the cache, or rehide the cache properly. I've adjusted the D/T of some of my hides to make sure that new members cannot see them, or I make them premium.

 

It would be nice though to open up the app a bit once people show a bit of commitment. Maybe after a month or 20 finds or something, they get to see higher D/T. One of the letterboxing sites does this ... you can make your caches available to members only after they have 50 or 100 or whatever finds. It's not perfect, but it does allow cache owners to protect themselves against a 10 year old who downloaded the app and doesn't have a clue.

 

the only ten year olds we have met caching have been boy/girl scouts, and pretty decent young people. getting to most of the caches means asking mom and dad for transportation and parental participation. we have not met one single ten year old caching in the woods without parental involvement.

 

I think the blame should be on a later age group. the same group that will choose to scoff at the official costs and spread things around instead of placing them nicely as they were.

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I've never seen anyone, myself included, download an app and then research how to use it. We download and go. This is fine for the majority of apps because making mistakes while trying to figure out evrything doesn't affect anyone. It's a different story for the geocaching app because mistakes made affect existing geocachers.

 

I agree, it would be nice if the app wasn't so limited but as it stands now, i'm definitely glad it is. What i think might help would be for there to be an option for cache owners to let their caches show up in the free app as they see fit. An opt in checkbox on the cache's submission/edit page would help.

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but at least make it possible to get iOS and Android devices GOING without having the embarresment of saying to twelve kids "sorry, you have to pay for this thing before you can play this game, to find out if you like this game".

 

I think video and computer games should be free... I hate having to pay for them before I can play them to find out if I like them...

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the only ten year olds we have met caching have been boy/girl scouts, and pretty decent young people. getting to most of the caches means asking mom and dad for transportation and parental participation. we have not met one single ten year old caching in the woods without parental involvement.

 

I think the blame should be on a later age group. the same group that will choose to scoff at the official costs and spread things around instead of placing them nicely as they were.

 

I dread one of our caches being visited by a group of scouts as past experience tells me there's a really good chance that cache will get trashed not long after.

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

Remember it's not the site, it's the app. And it's only the official app. But, it's also typically the first app by which people get exposed to the hobby. The other 3rd parties likely get most adopted by people looking for a different/better experience, if not just from high recommendations. I doubt there's any significant first-adopter rate for 3rd party gc apps. So I think the bulk of "new" cachers primarily get exposed first to this "crappled" (I like that word :)) official app.

 

I like the idea of a tiered entry; whether the app automatically unlocks/unlimits new filters when you get up to a certain amount of finds or time, or COs can limit who sees them (but since there's already PMO, the latter is quite unlikely).

 

Since it is just the app's concept that's limited the filter, why not "gamify" the finding to unlock more caches to find? Right now they can see all non-PM caches if they go to the website, so that makes no difference. But for those that exclusively use the app (as per the OP), that at least would help them understand why filters are limited and that there is much more to discover - but you've got to earn your way 'up' to that level.

 

The limitation is built as an App thing, not a website/geocaching hobby thing, but it's built, frankly, oddly and awfully. If you're going to arbitrarily limit filters, make it understandable and desireable to "unlock" the rest. The user would progress until the next, and final, step is to Purchase the full Premium Membership to unlock ALL geocaching features (across all platforms and devices). That's a typical progression already in the mobile gaming world.

 

THAT would make buying PM membership I think even more desireable!

Edited by thebruce0
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I'm happy that there is some limitation on new members. In the old days people had to make an investment into a hand held, find the website, read the rules, manually load coords into a GPS ... the barrier to entry was a bit higher so people had a bit of commitment before they could start.

 

Now all it takes is finding out about the game, and downloading an app. It's way too easy to start without understanding the rules. I've had a few caches go missing because of kids (or adults!) not understanding that you have to replace the cache, or rehide the cache properly. I've adjusted the D/T of some of my hides to make sure that new members cannot see them, or I make them premium.

 

It would be nice though to open up the app a bit once people show a bit of commitment. Maybe after a month or 20 finds or something, they get to see higher D/T. One of the letterboxing sites does this ... you can make your caches available to members only after they have 50 or 100 or whatever finds. It's not perfect, but it does allow cache owners to protect themselves against a 10 year old who downloaded the app and doesn't have a clue.

 

the only ten year olds we have met caching have been boy/girl scouts, and pretty decent young people. getting to most of the caches means asking mom and dad for transportation and parental participation. we have not met one single ten year old caching in the woods without parental involvement.

 

I've met a couple of young guy's. Tweenies, young teens on bicycles. They do cache in the woods or anywhere where they can bike. They don't cache with their parents. We've had kids come in to the forums that use the app and say their parents aren't interested in caching (TOU says the site is for 18 years an older or supervised 13 years and older).

I've seen plenty of kids hide caches, especially near their schools. They'll even say so in their cache write up "We go to St Joe's public school across the street and thought hiding a cache would be fun.".

Boy scouts can be lovely kids but they don't tend to maintain their caches. I've NM'd and NA'd about 5 boyscout caches over the years. Half of them were those cool hollowed out log caches. When I found them they were a mess and the boyscouts and their leader weren't responding.

Found a girl scout cache last year that was too close to another cache. The girlscouts didn't go back to retrieve that cache. When I found it on my way back to the car, it was in pretty bad shape already - not watertight, looked like it had been out for at least a couple of months.

 

I think the blame should be on a later age group. the same group that will choose to scoff at the official costs and spread things around instead of placing them nicely as they were.

 

 

But I agree that all types of cachers don't always play nice. Limiting the more advanced caches however helps with the problem.

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Boy scouts can be lovely kids but they don't tend to maintain their caches. I've NM'd and NA'd about 5 boyscout caches over the years. Half of them were those cool hollowed out log caches. When I found them they were a mess and the boyscouts and their leader weren't responding.

Found a girl scout cache last year that was too close to another cache. The girlscouts didn't go back to retrieve that cache. When I found it on my way back to the car, it was in pretty bad shape already - not watertight, looked like it had been out for at least a couple of months.

 

Sadly, my experience with caches placed by Guides and Scouts is similar. There's just too much turn-over from one year to the next and no accountability. I wish these organizations would focus on finding, rather than placing.

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Boy scouts can be lovely kids but they don't tend to maintain their caches. I've NM'd and NA'd about 5 boyscout caches over the years. Half of them were those cool hollowed out log caches. When I found them they were a mess and the boyscouts and their leader weren't responding.

Found a girl scout cache last year that was too close to another cache. The girlscouts didn't go back to retrieve that cache. When I found it on my way back to the car, it was in pretty bad shape already - not watertight, looked like it had been out for at least a couple of months.

 

Sadly, my experience with caches placed by Guides and Scouts is similar. There's just too much turn-over from one year to the next and no accountability. I wish these organizations would focus on finding, rather than placing.

 

Same experience here, Scout caches are the worst. :(

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We've had kids come in to the forums that use the app and say their parents aren't interested in caching (TOU says the site is for 18 years an older or supervised 13 years and older).

 

I do not know the Canadian law situation. What I know is what is written in the TOU is based on some US law and cannot be enforced outside of the US anyway.

For example, in my country the age limits for smoking. consuming alcohol, voting, having sex etc is below 18 (often 16, sometimes lower). In many countries parents could not enforce that their kids are not caching without

parental supervision from the legal point of view.

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We've had kids come in to the forums that use the app and say their parents aren't interested in caching (TOU says the site is for 18 years an older or supervised 13 years and older).

 

I do not know the Canadian law situation. What I know is what is written in the TOU is based on some US law and cannot be enforced outside of the US anyway.

For example, in my country the age limits for smoking. consuming alcohol, voting, having sex etc is below 18 (often 16, sometimes lower). In many countries parents could not enforce that their kids are not caching without

parental supervision from the legal point of view.

 

The law isn't relevant. A website can certainly shut down an account that violates its TOU.

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but at least make it possible to get iOS and Android devices GOING without having the embarresment of saying to twelve kids "sorry, you have to pay for this thing before you can play this game, to find out if you like this game".
Why the focus on the device? If it's an intro geocaching class where you're trying to let people figure out if they like geocaching, then why focus on the device?

 

For the intro geocaching classes I've taught or helped teach, we haven't had anyone create a geocaching.com account or use the web site. We haven't had anyone install an app or load data onto a device or load data into an app. As much as possible, we've tried to focus on finding geocaches.

 

Loaner devices work nicely, where someone can just click "go" and follow the arrow. One device per group works nicely, and the experienced geocacher can be the one handling the device and saying "ground zero is right here" or "it looks like ground zero is over there". But the focus is on finding geocaches, not on the devices.

 

Later, if they decide that they actually enjoy geocaching, then they can sort out the technology.

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I'd at least like to see the premium restrictions applied evenly to the app and to the website. As someone above mentioned, every cache is visible on the website...so if you cannot view it in the app, you can just go there instead. It defeats one of the main purposes of the restriction.

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The law isn't relevant. A website can certainly shut down an account that violates its TOU.

 

They do not know the age anyway.

 

Looking back at the original comment, if someone comes to the forum or posts in their logs that they're an unsupervised 10-year-old, then yeah, Groundspeak knows the age.

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I'd at least like to see the premium restrictions applied evenly to the app and to the website. As someone above mentioned, every cache is visible on the website...so if you cannot view it in the app, you can just go there instead. It defeats one of the main purposes of the restriction.

 

If someone is motivated enough to use the full website, why limit them?

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

 

The limitation which hadn't been there for 10+ years, and not all caches were moved to PMO. As such your argument is false.

I don't recall writing all in my post. ;)

The limitation wasn't there until the Intro app came about (and basic members using Windows).

After the first run of muggles-with-apps hit the scene with the Intro app, that's exactly what happened in this and other areas we cache.

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I'd at least like to see the premium restrictions applied evenly to the app and to the website. As someone above mentioned, every cache is visible on the website...so if you cannot view it in the app, you can just go there instead. It defeats one of the main purposes of the restriction.

 

If someone is motivated enough to use the full website, why limit them?

 

Exactly. Limit access to those who haven't spent the time to login to the website and get a better feel for what this is all about. But if they look at my cache page and have the knowledge to program the coordinates in by hand to their phone or GPS, then I'm fine with them looking for my cache. They have at least done a bit of research.

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

After all the issues with our 1/5/1.5 hides, we've archived all but one.

The couple remaining have D/T high enough that we have few issues today.

 

Making 'em pmo, those confused, hungry babies wouldn't be able to play at all.

Not much of a fix...

 

not wanting to maintain caches is detrimental, isn't it.

Replacing ammo cans every other week is a bit more than basic meintenance...

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Exactly. Limit access to those who haven't spent the time to login to the website and get a better feel for what this is all about. But if they look at my cache page and have the knowledge to program the coordinates in by hand to their phone or GPS, then I'm fine with them looking for my cache. They have at least done a bit of research.
From the perspective of cache owners who are tired of the problems created by muggles with apps, some sort of automatic account flag might be useful, whether the trigger for that flag is visiting the web site, or completing a tutorial/quiz about geocaching basics, or logging finds on 5 or more different days, or whatever.

 

Of course, that won't satisfy the demands for a free full-featured app that requires nothing of new geocachers (or potential new geocachers who haven't decided whether they even like geocaching). And it doesn't take into account any other requirements that Groundspeak might have.

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It has to be a good balance between encouraging new user adoption and decent usability, providing a learning curve that has little barrier to entry yet is fun and gives training at the same time for the sake of the existing community, and making good use of what a free member actually has access to outside the app.

 

I still think that since the limitation is app only, then the limitation in the app should be better presented to lead people excitedly into the everything they still have yet to discover before hitting the PM wall.

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but at least make it possible to get iOS and Android devices GOING without having the embarresment of saying to twelve kids "sorry, you have to pay for this thing before you can play this game, to find out if you like this game".

 

I think video and computer games should be free... I hate having to pay for them before I can play them to find out if I like them...

 

i think you've misinterpreted the point. you're in the field, with people, and you're about to say "oh, sorry, all these game pieces are paywalled. we all have to find a cellular signal, whip out our credit cards, and pay for this thing before we can find these things" is not going to leave a good impression.

 

if people want to hide their caches behind paywalls, fine. i don't care, i don't plan to visit them. finding out that a day's caches disappeared last night BECAUSE of a paywall action... isn't a positive experience. finding rummaged caches sucks too, but at least it can be explained why destroying other's people's property isn't cool, and the kids (or adults) will actually feel invested in the game, instead of taken advantage (bait/switched) of.

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Boy scouts can be lovely kids but they don't tend to maintain their caches. I've NM'd and NA'd about 5 boyscout caches over the years. Half of them were those cool hollowed out log caches. When I found them they were a mess and the boyscouts and their leader weren't responding.

Found a girl scout cache last year that was too close to another cache. The girlscouts didn't go back to retrieve that cache. When I found it on my way back to the car, it was in pretty bad shape already - not watertight, looked like it had been out for at least a couple of months.

 

Sadly, my experience with caches placed by Guides and Scouts is similar. There's just too much turn-over from one year to the next and no accountability. I wish these organizations would focus on finding, rather than placing.

 

i'm saddened too. when i went on a fun dirt bike ride, and mentioned scouts, the camp owner immediately hated the idea. he also had a very poor experience with scouting, and would not allow it to happen again. telling someone "our kids and parents actually give a rip, and actually love the woods instead of trashing them" is ignored. understandably so. explaining to kids that they can't go to x location for a campout because the last two groups were spoiled brats that left trash everywhere devalues their impression of the organization too... i understand, but am trying to change it here and there.

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Well, I'd bet that if the site did "get rid of that silly limitation to 1.5 rating and traditionals only" you'd either see COs archiving hides they don't want to keep replacing, or make 'em pmo.

After all the issues with our 1/5/1.5 hides, we've archived all but one.

The couple remaining have D/T high enough that we have few issues today.

 

Making 'em pmo, those confused, hungry babies wouldn't be able to play at all.

Not much of a fix...

 

not wanting to maintain caches is detrimental, isn't it.

Replacing ammo cans every other week is a bit more than basic meintenance...

 

oof, i bet it is. understood.

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but at least make it possible to get iOS and Android devices GOING without having the embarresment of saying to twelve kids "sorry, you have to pay for this thing before you can play this game, to find out if you like this game".

 

I think video and computer games should be free... I hate having to pay for them before I can play them to find out if I like them...

 

i think you've misinterpreted the point.

 

No - it's just that I disagree with you.

 

you're in the field, with people, and you're about to say "oh, sorry, all these game pieces are paywalled. we all have to find a cellular signal, whip out our credit cards, and pay for this thing before we can find these things" is not going to leave a good impression.

 

I agree - it's going to leave a bad impression that you fundamentally failed to do such basic homework before inviting a large group of people out only to disappoint them all.

 

if people want to hide their caches behind paywalls, fine. i don't care, i don't plan to visit them.

 

Caches cost - time, money, effort. You appreciate that - right?

 

finding out that a day's caches disappeared last night BECAUSE of a paywall action... isn't a positive experience.

 

I have no idea what you're saying here - other than not being able to find every cache you want to find isn't a positive experience.

 

finding rummaged caches sucks too, but at least it can be explained why destroying other's people's property isn't cool, and the kids (or adults) will actually feel invested in the game, instead of taken advantage (bait/switched) of.

 

You're advocating that those of us who hide caches should be happy to have them trashed because it teaches kids a lesson?

 

I expect then you'll have hidden such caches and replaced them repeatedly when they've been trashed - and been happy about that? Yes? Can you share some links with us to these caches?

Edited by Team Microdot
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you're in the field, with people, and you're about to say "oh, sorry, all these game pieces are paywalled. we all have to find a cellular signal, whip out our credit cards, and pay for this thing before we can find these things" is not going to leave a good impression.
I agree - it's going to leave a bad impression that you fundamentally failed to do such basic homework before inviting a large group of people out only to disappoint them all.
+1

 

It would be much better to explain geocaching to them, and then take them to GZ using your own device, which is already configured and loaded with cache data. If it turns out that they enjoy geocaching, then you can discuss technology and the various alternatives with them.

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Boy scouts can be lovely kids but they don't tend to maintain their caches. I've NM'd and NA'd about 5 boyscout caches over the years. Half of them were those cool hollowed out log caches. When I found them they were a mess and the boyscouts and their leader weren't responding.

Found a girl scout cache last year that was too close to another cache. The girlscouts didn't go back to retrieve that cache. When I found it on my way back to the car, it was in pretty bad shape already - not watertight, looked like it had been out for at least a couple of months.

 

Sadly, my experience with caches placed by Guides and Scouts is similar. There's just too much turn-over from one year to the next and no accountability. I wish these organizations would focus on finding, rather than placing.

 

i'm saddened too. when i went on a fun dirt bike ride, and mentioned scouts, the camp owner immediately hated the idea. he also had a very poor experience with scouting, and would not allow it to happen again. telling someone "our kids and parents actually give a rip, and actually love the woods instead of trashing them" is ignored. understandably so. explaining to kids that they can't go to x location for a campout because the last two groups were spoiled brats that left trash everywhere devalues their impression of the organization too... i understand, but am trying to change it here and there.

 

I don't see the relevance of this comment. Nobody is trashing these organizations.

 

Geocaching is a good activity for Scouts and Guides. They should focus on finding, not hiding, because there are new kids and new leaders each year so the caches they put out aren't maintained.

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I like the idea of a tiered entry; whether the app automatically unlocks/unlimits new filters when you get up to a certain amount of finds or time, or COs can limit who sees them (but since there's already PMO, the latter is quite unlikely).Since it is just the app's concept that's limited the filter, why not "gamify" the finding to unlock more caches to find? Right now they can see all non-PM caches if they go to the website, so that makes no difference. But for those that exclusively use the app (as per the OP), that at least would help them understand why filters are limited and that there is much more to discover - but you've got to earn your way 'up' to that level.The limitation is built as an App thing, not a website/geocaching hobby thing, but it's built, frankly, oddly and awfully. If you're going to arbitrarily limit filters, make it understandable and desireable to "unlock" the rest. The user would progress until the next, and final, step is to Purchase the full Premium Membership to unlock ALL geocaching features (across all platforms and devices). That's a typical progression already in the mobile gaming world.THAT would make buying PM membership I think even more desireable!

 

I do like this idea

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I like the idea of a tiered entry; whether the app automatically unlocks/unlimits new filters when you get up to a certain amount of finds or time, or COs can limit who sees them (but since there's already PMO, the latter is quite unlikely).Since it is just the app's concept that's limited the filter, why not "gamify" the finding to unlock more caches to find? Right now they can see all non-PM caches if they go to the website, so that makes no difference. But for those that exclusively use the app (as per the OP), that at least would help them understand why filters are limited and that there is much more to discover - but you've got to earn your way 'up' to that level.The limitation is built as an App thing, not a website/geocaching hobby thing, but it's built, frankly, oddly and awfully. If you're going to arbitrarily limit filters, make it understandable and desireable to "unlock" the rest. The user would progress until the next, and final, step is to Purchase the full Premium Membership to unlock ALL geocaching features (across all platforms and devices). That's a typical progression already in the mobile gaming world.THAT would make buying PM membership I think even more desireable!

 

I do like this idea

Not sure where that came from, but I didn't say that.

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Boy scouts can be lovely kids but they don't tend to maintain their caches. I've NM'd and NA'd about 5 boyscout caches over the years. Half of them were those cool hollowed out log caches. When I found them they were a mess and the boyscouts and their leader weren't responding.

Found a girl scout cache last year that was too close to another cache. The girlscouts didn't go back to retrieve that cache. When I found it on my way back to the car, it was in pretty bad shape already - not watertight, looked like it had been out for at least a couple of months.

 

Sadly, my experience with caches placed by Guides and Scouts is similar. There's just too much turn-over from one year to the next and no accountability. I wish these organizations would focus on finding, rather than placing.

 

i'm saddened too. when i went on a fun dirt bike ride, and mentioned scouts, the camp owner immediately hated the idea. he also had a very poor experience with scouting, and would not allow it to happen again. telling someone "our kids and parents actually give a rip, and actually love the woods instead of trashing them" is ignored. understandably so. explaining to kids that they can't go to x location for a campout because the last two groups were spoiled brats that left trash everywhere devalues their impression of the organization too... i understand, but am trying to change it here and there.

 

I don't see the relevance of this comment. Nobody is trashing these organizations.

 

Geocaching is a good activity for Scouts and Guides. They should focus on finding, not hiding, because there are new kids and new leaders each year so the caches they put out aren't maintained.

 

Read it again I'd you don't see the conversations subject. No one is bagging on scouts, is more to do with realizing just how poorly parents have been set guiding done if them over the last decade, and that many outdoors venues note prefer to not deal with the headache of hosting. Arriving and hearing those things are eye openers, that offering to build a bench will not fix.

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Boy scouts can be lovely kids but they don't tend to maintain their caches. I've NM'd and NA'd about 5 boyscout caches over the years. Half of them were those cool hollowed out log caches. When I found them they were a mess and the boyscouts and their leader weren't responding.

Found a girl scout cache last year that was too close to another cache. The girlscouts didn't go back to retrieve that cache. When I found it on my way back to the car, it was in pretty bad shape already - not watertight, looked like it had been out for at least a couple of months.

 

Sadly, my experience with caches placed by Guides and Scouts is similar. There's just too much turn-over from one year to the next and no accountability. I wish these organizations would focus on finding, rather than placing.

 

i'm saddened too. when i went on a fun dirt bike ride, and mentioned scouts, the camp owner immediately hated the idea. he also had a very poor experience with scouting, and would not allow it to happen again. telling someone "our kids and parents actually give a rip, and actually love the woods instead of trashing them" is ignored. understandably so. explaining to kids that they can't go to x location for a campout because the last two groups were spoiled brats that left trash everywhere devalues their impression of the organization too... i understand, but am trying to change it here and there.

 

I don't see the relevance of this comment. Nobody is trashing these organizations.

 

Geocaching is a good activity for Scouts and Guides. They should focus on finding, not hiding, because there are new kids and new leaders each year so the caches they put out aren't maintained.

 

Read it again I'd you don't see the conversations subject. No one is bagging on scouts, is more to do with realizing just how poorly parents have been set guiding done if them over the last decade, and that many outdoors venues note prefer to not deal with the headache of hosting. Arriving and hearing those things are eye openers, that offering to build a bench will not fix.

 

Sorry, maybe it's the language barrier? I don't see what this has to do with geocaches placed by Guides and Scouts.

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Hmmmm...while I don't like the idea of having to pay for premium membership to see most caches, I understand GS needing to stay solvent. Dunno why the $10 had to go...I guess new players would do one but not the other. But like...PMO caches are now pretty much the same as having a Mystery Cache or a D/T over 1.5? Huh.

 

The suggestion I really like is unlocking as you go... "Find ten more caches to unlock Multi-Caches! Find 25 more caches to unlock Mystery Caches!" That is a fantastic idea.

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Hmmmm...while I don't like the idea of having to pay for premium membership to see most caches, I understand GS needing to stay solvent. Dunno why the $10 had to go...I guess new players would do one but not the other. But like...PMO caches are now pretty much the same as having a Mystery Cache or a D/T over 1.5? Huh.

 

The suggestion I really like is unlocking as you go... "Find ten more caches to unlock Multi-Caches! Find 25 more caches to unlock Mystery Caches!" That is a fantastic idea.

 

I am concerned that this kind of thing would just incite false logs.

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Maintaining the website, the database, and the apps is not 'free' to Groundspeak. IMHO, if someone doesn't want to pay for Premium Membership, then they shouldn't expect full access. YMMV.

The non-premium membership is already limited with regards to capabilities. What we here talking about is the inability to properly introduce new people because the app provided by the listing service explicitly crapples the experience. For both the beginner and the "mentor".

See the bolded part of my comment. Supporting apps requires developers that are 'extra' compared to supporting the website or the database. App developers cost money. If Basic Members want to see everything in the app, then they should help support the cost of the app with a recurring fee. A one-time payment of $10 does not contribute as much as a recurring $30 payment.

 

Just an FYI - when I first started caching, the first couple apps that I downloaded were not the official app. When someone searches 'geocaching' in the Google Play Store, then a full page of apps is displayed and they could certainly try any of them. If they read the reviews of the apps, which they should do anyway, then they will likely end up not loading the official app anyway.

 

I would mention that if a "mentor" is helping new cachers, then that mentor should prepare the beginner appropriately and not direct them to the official app - but that has already been mentioned by others in earlier posts.

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