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Graculus

Changes to the placing of caches/events in the UK

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The UK reviewing team recently had a meeting where several topics were discussed. This has resulted in changes to various matters of cache placement and events in the UK as follows:

 

Placing of caches in Culverts, Mines, Adits, Caves and Underground Quarries.

There have been issues with disturbing bats which frequently roost in some of these locations. It was decided there would be no restrictions on placing caches in these locations but to avoid any issues cache owners would be asked to show they have permission from the relevant landowner.

Please note that caches in culverts under roads managed by Highways England and in culverts under railway lines (Network Rail) will not be allowed. Both these organisations have made this request and it's explained in the UK Geocaching Polices Wiki: Highways England - Network Rail.

 

Event stacking

This phrase refers to holding multiple events that are close to each other or at similar times. Events are social gatherings of geocachers and having too many too close to each other diminishes their value to the community. Events are not just an excuse to get a 'smiley'. In the future, if an event is submitted and another event is either already published or also waiting review and they are too close to each other then the following guidance will apply:

Events will be published within a similar time period only if they are more than 20 miles apart (as the crow flies). Events closer to each other than 20 miles will only be published if the end time of the first is more 10 hours before the start time of the next. In London which is a popular tourist destination and where many events get submitted it was decided the distance would be a 3 mile circle around Trafalgar Square rather than 20 miles. The time restriction of 10 hours will still apply. Anywhere else in London the 20 mile/10 hour guideance will apply.

 

Camping events

Camping is a very popular activity among geocachers and long weekend camping trips particularly so. It’s becoming common to have a lot of geocaching events during these 2 or 3 days. This does diminish the value of events as social gatherings as it's usually the same people attending each time. The event guidelines say this:

 

An event is a gathering of geocachers, facilitating the social aspect of geocaching. It is organized by geocachers and is open to other geocachers and those interested in learning about the game. It takes place at the posted coordinates, includes start and end times, and lasts at least 30 minutes. Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event.

 

Therefore in the future only one event will be allowed during a camping "long weekend". This event must be on a specific day with a start and finish time. If the camp site is closed to visitors; that is you can only get on the camp site if you are camping then this event must be open to all geocachers so needs to be held off the camp site.

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

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UK Geocaching Policies Wiki

Geocaching.com Help Center

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website

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Hello.

 

Whilst I don't have any particular issue with any of the points raised, I had thought the individual country reviewing team's place was the apply and perhaps interpret locally the global Groundscape rules, rather than create new ones which may override those written in the website guidelines.

 

Am I wrong in this?

 

Are these changes reflected globally, or apply only to the UK?

 

Are these new rules going to be included in the placement guidelines so that people who don't read these forums are aware of them?

 

For players who may disagree with the changes, is there any route of appeal?

 

Thank you.

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Please can you explain what will happen at Mega events when there are several separate events in the same location or close by and even on the same day?

 

Also why are you making new rules rather than use Groundspeaks, surely we can appeal your decisions?

 

We look forward to you reply

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This info has just been posted on our Facebook group otherwise I doubt I'd have seen it.

I have to agree with dartymoor, is there room for appeals?

Also wouldn't it be prudent to post this news on Facebook as I doubt many people will read it on here.

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Placing of caches in Culverts, Mines, Adits, Caves and Underground Quarries.

There have been issues with disturbing bats which frequently roost in some of these locations. It was decided there would be no restrictions on placing caches in these locations but to avoid any issues cache owners would be asked to show they have permission from the relevant landowner.

 

Should that not read " cache owners would be asked to show they have permission from the relevant landowner, or the Access Rights Holder" As the Landowner Owns what is above Ground, who owns below ground can be different. With the Landowner, having no rights to Grant Permission, or even access underground. And Legally only being in the Permission of Granting Access across their Property, to the Entrance of the Underground Facility

 

The Landowner, and Access Rights Holder, in many cases are different, That comes from personal experience, of organising events, underground. And from a cache published around 2006, where the Cache Owner, had obtained Permission off the Landowner, yet it turned out that the Land Owner had no Legal Rights, in regards to the Underground Facility, so could not Legally give Permission for the Placement of the Cache. Which was refused Permission, by the Access Rights Holder, even though the Underground Facility was not Gated. The whole affair turned very nasty!

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These changes are for the UK only. Each country can interpret the guidelines to suit local situations. For example, we don't allow caches in playgrounds or near schools. There isn't a guideline saying this but we interpret this guideline for these situations.

 

"Think about how your container and the actions of geocachers seeking it will be perceived by the public. Although your cache will be hidden with landowner or land manager permission, concerned passersby who are unaware of geocaching, may view people searching the property as suspicious."

 

All these UK specific guidelines are agreed with Geocaching HQ. We don't just make them up as and when we feel like it!

 

Regarding the distances and timescales for "event stacking". Geocaching HQ have given the local reviewing teams around the World the option to define local guidelines for this as individual country situations do vary. This is what we feel will apply to the UK. When the 17 of us discussed this at our meeting last week a Geocaching HQ Lackey was with us and part of the discussion.

 

Yes, you can appeal any decision a reviewer makes about any cache or event. There is an option in the Help Center - Email Us you can use for this. If it's a cache/event under review the reviewer will give the necessary information anyway.

 

Why would it be the end of Piratemania? Why would it be the end? Piratemania will still take place, people will have a really enjoyable time and they'll get an event smiley. After all, isn't that what Piratemania is, an event?

 

Regarding the need for permission for "underground" caches. I used the word landowner simply because there could be a landowner, someone who leases the land with certain rights or is a manager. Caches won't be published with the assumption they have permission, proof must be provided.

 

It's been posted on Facebook in the Reviewers Tea Bar group. It has also been shared from there to other groups. It's also in the UK Geocaching Policies Wiki.

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All these UK specific guidelines are agreed with Geocaching HQ. We don't just make them up as and when we feel like it!

 

Regarding the distances and timescales for "event stacking". Geocaching HQ have given the local reviewing teams around the World the option to define local guidelines for this as individual country situations do vary.

 

Well, I do not live in the UK but I wonder why the UK reviewers felt the need to come up with so strict rules that only take into account distance and the event time. For example, at a day when GIFF events or a day when Maker events ot other special events take place, it seems quite strange to me to forbid completely different events which are closer than 20 miles.

 

Taking only time and distance into account does not take into account that different events appeal to different people.

 

Maybe all events in the UK are at T=1* event locations that can be reached by everyone. If not, there would exist also another aspect that should be taken into account. For example, I never could attend an event like that one

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6J26B_nachts-in-der-friedrich-hohle

(as the event location is only reachable via a via ferrata the rating is legitimate) and the same applies e.g. to an event on an island only reachable by boats e.g.

 

I do understand that there is a tendency in some areas to have too many events, but to be honest, the new UK event rules seem too strict in my opinion.

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The UK reviewing team recently had a meeting where several topics were discussed. This has resulted in changes to various matters of cache placement and events in the UK as follows:

 

Placing of caches in Culverts, Mines, Adits, Caves and Underground Quarries.

There have been issues with disturbing bats which frequently roost in some of these locations. It was decided there would be no restrictions on placing caches in these locations but to avoid any issues cache owners would be asked to show they have permission from the relevant landowner.

Please note that caches in culverts under roads managed by Highways England and in culverts under railway lines (Network Rail) will not be allowed. Both these organisations have made this request and it's explained in the UK Geocaching Polices Wiki: Highways England - Network Rail.

 

Whilst I commend the consideration for bats, what about bats roosting and hibernating in trees. All the UK bat species use trees as habitat, 3/4 are known to roost in trees and quite a few live exclusively in trees (in holes, behind bark, in bird/bat boxes). Will there be similar proof of permission required for any cache which risks disturbing them? What about under bridges as well, which also get used by bats?

 

From my experience of carrying out professional bat surveys for the last couple of summers I don't think many (if any) land owner will be aware if there are bats in their caves/tunnels etc. Most only become aware of bats if they are required to get a survey done for construction work, so any permission given may well not take bat presence into consideration.

 

The only bat I've seen whilst out caching was in a small abandoned services building by a roadside.

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All caches are reviewed using the CO's description, the MAGIC map and Google maps. If any cache appears to be an issue for any reason including the possibility of bats then the CO would be asked for more information and potentially the cache would not be published.

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Are you really saying that if someone should organise an event up the top of a hill at midnight for instance then no-one can have an event within 20 miles the previous evening. That is just plain daft.

Edited by lodgebarn

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These changes really prove the point that UK Reviewers are totally out of touch with real cachers who pay good money for premium membership and get inappropriate changes dumped on them. It would be good to fully establish & implement a UK standard of reviewing that ALL reviewers adhere too as the disparity from region to region is all too evident, this would prevent the inane rubbish caches we have to put up with being published & then no action being taken to correct. Volume is not an issue from the stats published. Getting back to only good caches being published with obvious queries & errors challenged by the reviewer would be much more preferable than messing about with the community events & introducing confusing rules - Keep It Simple!! Keep It Right!! Keep It Fun - Lets hope this backfires & we get the Review of UK Reviewers we desperately need to Keep Geocaching alive in the UK.

Edited by The Cuthies & Max

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Piratemania has a lot of people camping for the weekend. The side events are for fun, but reviewers have decided that now we have to travel 20.1 miles to them. I cannot be bothered packing a motor home up to drive over that distance for half an hour only to drive back to camp up again, it is silly😜

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I can see a big problem here on the popular event days like Pi day, Leap day etc. For example, for the last leap day an event was organised locally during the day. This happened to be a work day and so I was unable to attend, but then a subsequent event was organised for the evening which I could attend. The 20 miles/10 hours rule gives a very large exclusion zone for other events and would have prevented this second event, and I don't think I would have bothered making a 40+ mile round trip just for a new souvenir.

 

I'm sure there will be some few people who will do multiple events, but I suspect the new rules are more likely to reduce event attendance and so the decreased social aspect is just the opposite of what is trying to be achieved.

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A lot of very sensible comments and replies here.

 

I agree that this is a rash move and one that could jeopardise the game and the social aspect as it have been successfully played for a long time. Why fix something that isn't broken?

 

During a camping weekend event like the South Wales Annual Camping event I find that the small events form the glue, the listings on the geocaching website give me the timetable I need to make sure I am in the correct places at the right times.

 

Normally there are a variety of going ons that appeal to different people and quite often here in the SW annual event some people will make a day trip and attend only one of the events, one that will appeal to them.

 

There are other aspects of the geocaching game that need fixing like caches on dog poo bins - THEY POSE A SERIOUS RISK TO CHILD HEALTH for crying out loud

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There also seems a great inequality in the event rules as I understand them. Much of Surrey is within 20 miles of a lot of central London, and it seems that if a London event is organised first then I cannot organise an event in Surrey, unless I find a venue more than 20 miles away. But if I organise an event first, then there is nothing to stop a London event that takes place at the same time being organised later.

 

Although I understand the reasoning behind the new rules, 20 miles seems an excessive distance limit. As has been said, a lot of tourist events do get organised in London and it does seem that this distance rule could have a major effect on what we can do locally.

Edited by Woking Wonders

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Piratemania has a lot of people camping for the weekend. The side events are for fun, but reviewers have decided that now we have to travel 20.1 miles to them. I cannot be bothered packing a motor home up to drive over that distance for half an hour only to drive back to camp up again, it is silly😜

 

If (as you say) "The side events are for fun" then they still will be for fun.

Why do you need another smiley for having fun at what is in effect part of the same event?

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Piratemania has a lot of people camping for the weekend. The side events are for fun, but reviewers have decided that now we have to travel 20.1 miles to them. I cannot be bothered packing a motor home up to drive over that distance for half an hour only to drive back to camp up again, it is silly😜

 

If (as you say) "The side events are for fun" then they still will be for fun.

Why do you need another smiley for having fun at what is in effect part of the same event?

 

But not as much fun! and without anywhere to record your experience, load your photos & more to the point - Why shouldn't each side event have a Smile - why have the reviewers such an issue with people enjoying geocaching - we have to put up with Pointless Souvenirs!!! Geocaching needs to move from a Dictatorship to a Democracy - we live in a democratic country & get to vote, so why do UK Reviewers think geocaching is different. UK Reviewers need to ensure each one of them is getting the basics right before embarking on pointless exercises like this fiasco - Come on UK Reviewers Own Up & Accept you have got it monumentally wrong. There are so many hot topics worthy of discussion - why go out of your way to annoy all cachers who have got to hear about this! Also why not communicate with All Paying Members - not all of us use forums or facebook but Geocaching are still glad of our subscriptions. Geocaching has been on the slide in the UK for a while - this fiasco has proved to doubters the reason why!

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Piratemania has a lot of people camping for the weekend. The side events are for fun, but reviewers have decided that now we have to travel 20.1 miles to them. I cannot be bothered packing a motor home up to drive over that distance for half an hour only to drive back to camp up again, it is silly😜

 

If (as you say) "The side events are for fun" then they still will be for fun.

Why do you need another smiley for having fun at what is in effect part of the same event?

 

This sort of antediluvian attitude reminds me of the days when one of the arguments voiced against virts and webcam caches was that it was too easy a way to get a "smiley". Why should it not be both easy and hard to get a smiley; it recognises an achievement no matter if it is a 1/1 or 5/5. At a very simple level an advanced calculation using differential calculus done by a first wrangler at Oxbridge is just as correct as a simple number bond done by a primary school pupil. Both are achievements worthy of recognition.

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Years since I have come in here and never had any intention of doing so ever again.

 

Having slept on the new camping-event rule. Harsh and not required are my thoughts.

 

See you in a couple or three years

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If (as you say) "The side events are for fun" then they still will be for fun.

Why do you need another smiley for having fun at what is in effect part of the same event?

 

While I'm not a friend of multiple smilies for what belongs together (caches or events), I dare to ask whether what the new UK guidelines asl for will eventually lead to what you call the same event? A single day event and maybe even outside of the camping site does not any longer deserve the name camping event - it's just a cheap placeholder like those 30 minutes event at starting points for hikes or boat trips never will be the real event, just a lame placeholder which is named into a gc.com event.

 

Attending a camping event without camping does not make sense. Attending some side event without camping when taking part in the side event's activities, is a different story and makes sense for me.

 

If I do not care the least about geocaching movies, I would not want to attend a GIFF event though of course the rules allow me to go there, saty for 10 seconds and leave, but that's not the idea of a geocaching event. As soon as one accepts the real idea of geocaching events, one needs to accept however also that the preferences and interests of geocachers and also their private and work schedules differ.

 

It's Groundspeak who proudly presents special souvenirs for events and it's Groundspeak who allows regional reviewers to come up with rules that make it impossible for many cachers to earn these souvenirs despite a decent effort on the side of the cachers. That somehow does not fit together.

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Event stacking

This phrase refers to holding multiple events that are close to each other or at similar times. Events are social gatherings of geocachers and having too many too close to each other diminishes their value to the community. Events are not just an excuse to get a 'smiley'. In the future, if an event is submitted and another event is either already published or also waiting review and they are too close to each other then the following guidance will apply:

Events will be published within a similar time period only if they are more than 20 miles apart (as the crow flies). Events closer to each other than 20 miles will only be published if the end time of the first is more 10 hours before the start time of the next. In London which is a popular tourist destination and where many events get submitted it was decided the distance would be a 3 mile circle around Trafalgar Square rather than 20 miles. The time restriction of 10 hours will still apply. Anywhere else in London the 20 mile/10 hour guideance will apply.

Perhaps I've misunderstood this one. It looks to me like there can't be two events on the same day within 20 miles of each other, which would be ridiculous. Can it be reworded to make it more clear? It looks like an event arranged in (say) Rotherham would prevent someone arranging one in Bakewell the same day, even though it's probably the best part of 2 hours drive away. I can't have interpreted that correctly.

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Perhaps I've misunderstood this one. It looks to me like there can't be two events on the same day within 20 miles of each other, which would be ridiculous. Can it be reworded to make it more clear? It looks like an event arranged in (say) Rotherham would prevent someone arranging one in Bakewell the same day, even though it's probably the best part of 2 hours drive away. I can't have interpreted that correctly.

 

No you haven't misunderstood, yes it is ridiculous, yes you have interpreted it correctly.

 

Under these new guidelines if there's an event in Rotherham, then no events would be allowed within 10 hours of that event in Barnsley, Doncaster, Wakefield, Pontefract, Bakewell, Chesterfield, etc. Basically an area of 1,256 square miles :(

 

One of the reviewers on FB said she wanted it to be a 30 mile limit :o

 

This is mental, and I can't imagine what the reviewers are thinking.

 

Sadly they know there's s*d all we can do about it, they will close ranks and based on past history they will soon stop responding to questions about it, GS will stand by them and the social Geocaching scene in the UK will be the worse for it.

 

This is an appalling sad turn of events.

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Perhaps I've misunderstood this one. It looks to me like there can't be two events on the same day within 20 miles of each other, which would be ridiculous. Can it be reworded to make it more clear? It looks like an event arranged in (say) Rotherham would prevent someone arranging one in Bakewell the same day, even though it's probably the best part of 2 hours drive away. I can't have interpreted that correctly.

 

No you haven't misunderstood, yes it is ridiculous, yes you have interpreted it correctly.

 

Under these new guidelines if there's an event in Rotherham, then no events would be allowed within 10 hours of that event in Barnsley, Doncaster, Wakefield, Pontefract, Bakewell, Chesterfield, etc. Basically an area of 1,256 square miles :(

 

One of the reviewers on FB said she wanted it to be a 30 mile limit :o

 

This is mental, and I can't imagine what the reviewers are thinking.

 

Sadly they know there's s*d all we can do about it, they will close ranks and based on past history they will soon stop responding to questions about it, GS will stand by them and the social Geocaching scene in the UK will be the worse for it.

 

This is an appalling sad turn of events.

Brilliant isn't it how about Minehead to Bridgend or Rhyl to Liverpool? I wonder what the longest drive would be! Come on guys just admit you have not really thought this through at all. Not all towns have fast roads between them.

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Brilliant isn't it how about Minehead to Bridgend or Rhyl to Liverpool? I wonder what the longest drive would be! Come on guys just admit you have not really thought this through at all. Not all towns have fast roads between them.

I just don't believe that this rule has actually been seriously mooted, let alone thought through (N.B. I'm on Facebook every day and hadn't heard of it). After a quick check, my entry for the longest drive is Southend (Essex) to Whitstable (Kent). 70 miles, or 18 as the crow flies. Although I'm sure that there are better examples.

If you want to attend both the Southend and Whitstable events and have a drink you can take public transport. Should be able to rush you there in three hours.

 

Anyway, what major problem is this supposed to address? I've seen days when there is an event at lunchtime, so that city workers can attend, followed by another in the same city in the evening so that locals can join in the fun. What's wrong with that?

 

The weekend camping rule also seems rather peculiar. Obviously if you arrange an event that lasts a whole weekend you'd want to arrange a couple of sub-events too and you'd want to see who proposes to attend those so you can make arrangements based on likely numbers. It also means that the weekend attendees can see what activities are planned beyond the general social get together. Frankly I don't see what problem this rule is addressing, although it's easy to see what unnecessary problems it might cause. Is it that a weekend event is likely to lead to two or three "attended" logs per person? So what?

Edited by Happy Humphrey

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How will this idea affect CITOs with an attached event?

 

Also I note that The StowMartians' question about Mega events has not been answered.

Edited by Optimist on the run

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Please can you explain what will happen at Mega events when there are several separate events in the same location or close by and even on the same day?

 

Also why are you making new rules rather than use Groundspeaks, surely we can appeal your decisions?

 

We look forward to you reply

This article in the Help Center explains about Mega and side events. If you wanted any other events during a mega week the new guidance won't stop them despite everything people are saying.

 

We didn't make up this 'rule' it's already in the guidelines for events. All we've done (with the help of Geocaching HQ) is to clarify it by giving a time and distance. As with all the guidelines they are flexible. People are convinced we never relax guidelines. We do quite often. When we do it means a cache\event will get published and no one knows what we did. If we refuse a cache (or event) for very obvious guideline reasons then everyone knows about it and we're accused of "enforcing the rules".

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Please can you explain what will happen at Mega events when there are several separate events in the same location or close by and even on the same day?

 

Also why are you making new rules rather than use Groundspeaks, surely we can appeal your decisions?

 

We look forward to you reply

This article in the Help Center explains about Mega and side events. If you wanted any other events during a mega week the new guidance won't stop them despite everything people are saying.

 

We didn't make up this 'rule' it's already in the guidelines for events. All we've done (with the help of Geocaching HQ) is to clarify it by giving a time and distance. As with all the guidelines they are flexible. People are convinced we never relax guidelines. We do quite often. When we do it means a cache\event will get published and no one knows what we did. If we refuse a cache (or event) for very obvious guideline reasons then everyone knows about it and we're accused of "enforcing the rules".

 

So if there was already an event published in Bristol starting at 7.30pm, then you're saying that if another event was then submitted starting at 7.30pm 15 miles away in Bath, that you'd expect the Bath one to be OKed?

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We didn't make up this 'rule' it's already in the guidelines for events. All we've done (with the help of Geocaching HQ) is to clarify it by giving a time and distance.

 

In my opinion, the issue is however caused exactly by the rule you defined for time and distance which are too strict.

 

As with all the guidelines they are flexible. People are convinced we never relax guidelines. We do quite often. When we do it means a cache\event will get published and no one knows what we did. If we refuse a cache (or event) for very obvious guideline reasons then everyone knows about it and we're accused of "enforcing the rules".

 

I would not want to have to rely on that a reviewer acts graciously to for example allow a non GIFF event on the day of the GIFF events or to allow a dinner time meeting 1 hour drive from a midnight meeting.

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I've seen many discussions on FB, but I prefer to comment here; though I know few will see it...

 

Here are my thoughts.

 

Firstly, this concept of "event stacking" I believe comes from the guidelines:

 

"Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. "

 

UK reviewers need to enforce this guideline. Personally I don't see "event stacking" as a problem, but Groundspeak does.

 

Before these recent UK guidelines, I assume that some events have been rejected (not published) by reviewers in the UK if the reviewer felt it didn't meet this guideline?

 

So before we get into the details of 20 miles etc... the question I don't see being asked is:

 

Which is better? To have each individual UK reviewer decide, or to have a set of UK guidelines so the reviewers are consistent?

 

To me, having documented UK specific guidelines makes sense, as:

 

- It helps with consistency between reviewers

- It lets event owners know what is allowed and what is not.

 

Then comes the details of the guidelines. I think the challenge is how to put "intended for the same audience" into numbers. We have a monthly evening event in Bath. There are also monthly meetings in Melksham, Frome, and Devizes - all within 20 miles. There isn't the "same audience" at any of these, but there is considerable overlap. Of course we hold them on different days so they don't clash - Bath is the last Thursday, Melksham the 3rd Tuesday, etc. So the guidelines won't affect these events. There is the possibility of a clash if a visitor arranges a "I'm in Bath come and meet me" event on our regular event day, if they get in first before the regular event for that month is published. I guess we will need to arrange our events 3 months in advance to be sure. Or I ask the visitor to cancel theirs and attend mine. But what if the visitor can only do lunchtime? In which case, if it really is a flexible guideline, maybe my reviewer will allow our regular event to go ahead. It would be clear nobody is trying to "stack", it's just something that happened.

 

There is also a short lunchtime event in central Bristol (10 miles away) once a month. There is very little overlap in attendance between that event and the Bath evening events. To date I don't think these have clashed on the same day, but if they did, I don't think they clash with the "intended for the same audience" guideline.

 

So, I can understand the reviewers wanting to create UK guidelines. I don't think they are doing this because they are power hungry, or any of the other similar things they have been called. (Not so much in this thread, but on FB).

 

If you aren't bored yet.. then what about the details? If they had gone with 2 miles for distance and 1 hour apart then most everything would be allowed; but I suspect Groundspeak wouldn't be happy that this is "tough" enough. And whatever numbers they came up with, some would be unhappy. But having said all that... I think 10 miles and 5 hours would be better. I think it would still stop any stacking "abuse", while allowing people to arrange the types of events they want in their local area when they want.

Edited by redsox_mark

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If you aren't bored yet.. then what about the details? If they had gone with 2 miles for distance and 1 hour apart then most everything would be allowed; but I suspect Groundspeak wouldn't be happy that this is "tough" enough. And whatever numbers they came up with, some would be unhappy. But having said all that... I think 10 miles and 5 hours would be better. I think it would still stop any stacking "abuse", while allowing people to arrange the types of events they want in their local area when they want.

 

Personally, I think time and distance do not suffice to get a full picture. Of course "for the same audience/not for the same audience" cannot be cast into cast into numbers, but it should for example be pretty obvious that a 1/1 meet and greet and an event at midnight on the top of a hill do not target to the same audience though of course there can be some potential overlap but potential overlap if it's not the majority is not connected to what's known as event stacking.

 

Anything that forces event organizers to submit events earlier than required by the guidelines should be discouraged in my opinion to allow for flexibility.

Edited by cezanne

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"Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. "

 

UK reviewers need to enforce this guideline. Personally I don't see "event stacking" as a problem, but Groundspeak does.

 

Before these recent UK guidelines, I assume that some events have been rejected (not published) by reviewers in the UK if the reviewer felt it didn't meet this guideline?

 

Thanks for clarifying, Mark. I never imagined that "Event stacking" would be a problem, and I'm still not quite sure why it is seen as a problem. The explanation seems to be "having too many too close to each other diminishes their value to the community". What does that mean, in the context of two events 18 miles from each other?

 

Be that as it may, if there are two events in the same day 18 miles apart then unless the events are clearly linked in some way I really don't see why some sort of arbitrary distance and time rule has to be applied. It's hard enough to organise an event without reviewers setting up extra hurdles to jump.

 

The key point in the guidelines is "should be submitted as a single event". Obviously, the UK version is that if an event is within 20 miles and 10 hours of another they have to be merged.

Well, if you have a lunchtime event in Bristol and then another event crops up in Bath in the evening is it realistic to expect the two event organisers to merge them together? It would look a very odd event and cause great confusion. What would the description say? In my example, a Rotherham event would have to be changed to include the Bakewell venue, even though the event format only allows for a single location. Presumably you'd have to set the location to perhaps Sheffield, and then explain that part of it is in Rotherham at a cafe at lunchtime (for which they require "Will Attend" logs so that numbers can be limited) and the other part is a sit-down meal in Bakewell (for which they require separate "Will Attend" logs with menu choices, and to make sure that enough people are interested to make it feasible).

 

Event "caches" are already clunky enough without making them even more clumsy.

Edited by Happy Humphrey

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I never imagined that "Event stacking" would be a problem, and I'm still not quite sure why it is seen as a problem. The explanation seems to be "having too many too close to each other diminishes their value to the community". What does that mean, in the context of two events 18 miles from each other?

 

 

Good points. I'm not a Lackey or a Reviewer, so I don't really know. But the existing Groundspeak guidelines seem more concerned about the "Camping Event" example. If I was to arrange a 3 day camping "event", with 5 event caches per day, those are clearly "intended for the same audience". I could publish this as one event, and list the additional 15 things we have planned in that one listing.

 

But yes, if I have an event in Bath and someone wants to have one in Bristol the same day, they are not intended for the same audience. Some people may do both, but that is not the intent. And they can't be merged. Now in general we tend to avoid events on the same day. In the rare case - hypothetical example: I submit an evening event in Bath; there is already a request for an event in Bristol that same night in the queue. Telling me I can't have mine as there is a clashing one in Bristol is probably a good thing - I know some people from Bristol generally attend my events, I don't want to create a conflict. If the Bristol event is at lunchtime and my Bath event is in the evening, then I don't see a conflict.

 

Now a variation of my hypothetical example. I arrange an evening event in Bath. It is published. A week later, someone arranges an event in Bristol at the same time. Tricky. It is better for my event that the Bristol one isn't allowed; as more people will come to mine. Normally this won't happen, as the Bristol owner will search for nearby events; but what if they don't?

 

That's why I'm thinking the idea of a specific UK guideline isn't a bad idea. Maybe just tweak the numbers.

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Please can you explain what will happen at Mega events when there are several separate events in the same location or close by and even on the same day?

 

Also why are you making new rules rather than use Groundspeaks, surely we can appeal your decisions?

 

We look forward to you reply

This article in the Help Center explains about Mega and side events. If you wanted any other events during a mega week the new guidance won't stop them despite everything people are saying.

 

We didn't make up this 'rule' it's already in the guidelines for events. All we've done (with the help of Geocaching HQ) is to clarify it by giving a time and distance. As with all the guidelines they are flexible. People are convinced we never relax guidelines. We do quite often. When we do it means a cache\event will get published and no one knows what we did. If we refuse a cache (or event) for very obvious guideline reasons then everyone knows about it and we're accused of "enforcing the rules".

 

So if there was already an event published in Bristol starting at 7.30pm, then you're saying that if another event was then submitted starting at 7.30pm 15 miles away in Bath, that you'd expect the Bath one to be OKed?

 

I've already said in the Facebook discussion we won't answer "what if" questions. We need to see the event(s) listed to see what they are about before making a decision. And it's never the decision of one reviewer. We all discuss caches and events to get an agreement on whether it can or can't be published. If that fails it goes to Geocaching HQ for a decision. Unfortunately everyone believes GHQ will side with us and not the CO. That is definitely not the case. CO's do win appeals.

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We hope that the U.K. reviewers will reconsider the new rules about camping events not having side events and also the time/distance from events.

Regarding the first point regarding camping side events - we do attend them and thoroughly enjoy them. It is great to meet other cachers and learn from them or to help new cachers. We would be more reluctant to attend camping events which only have the 1 event smilie however long you are there and whichever other events are organised at the site - it would be a pity if we could not have a BBQ onsite one evening and maybe geocaching games another evening- as long as it is open to non-camping cachers also. We think they should be separate events. Why should we have to move to another site to make it a different event? The movement of people by car or walking may be more dangerous than locating events where most people are staying.

As far as the new rule on distance between events on the same day is concerned. We live in industrial South Wales which has a very dense population but also has a coastline Which is physically close to both Somerset and North Devon both of which are within 20 miles. We understand that local reviewers will understand the physical distance v the actual driving time will be taken into account when considering events but if they are using their discretionary powers - why introduce the rule at all. We are sure that the reviewers have used common sense on numerous occasions in the past so why change things now?

We also think that these decisions have not been taken with regard to what the geocaching community in the U.K. actually think - I don't think they have their fingers on the pulse of the people. Particularly with regard to the strength of feeling which as been expressed on 'The U,K. And Ireland GC Reviewers and Community Tea bar' as well as on other social media sites.

I must say that I love geocaching, the reviewers work hard and give up a lot of their own time to check and publish caches for our benefit and we thank them for it. However, we do think that where there are rule changes they should be for the benefit of the geocaching community and I'm not sure these changes are. We understand that they are not ground speak rule but U.K. rules only. It is a pity that the geocaching community in the U.K. were not invited to express their views before the rules were initiated. We hope that the rules are reconsidered at the earliest opportunity.

Edited by WelshCathRog

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I've already said in the Facebook discussion we won't answer "what if" questions. We need to see the event(s) listed to see what they are about before making a decision. And it's never the decision of one reviewer. We all discuss caches and events to get an agreement on whether it can or can't be published. If that fails it goes to Geocaching HQ for a decision. Unfortunately everyone believes GHQ will side with us and not the CO. That is definitely not the case. CO's do win appeals.

I can see why you wouldn't want to answer a long list of "what if" questions, but perhaps to those of us not privy to the Facebook group you could explain by answering my earlier question...

I never imagined that "Event stacking" would be a problem, and I'm still not quite sure why it is seen as a problem. The explanation seems to be "having too many too close to each other diminishes their value to the community". What does that mean, in the context of two events 18 miles from each other?

It's hard to ask for clarification without giving an example, but what is the principal problem that this rule is trying to solve? Cases I can think of don't seem to fall foul of the Groundspeak guidelines...

"Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. "

...but appear to be disallowed under the new UK 20-mile rule unless merged with another unrelated event, which sounds like a tall order in most cases.

 

Perhaps you could call a meeting and reconsider this. I usually find that if a decision is met with a large amount of bewilderment and incredulity, then there's something seriously wrong with it.

 

I'd have assumed that "near the same time or location and intended for the same audience" is easy to apply common sense to, but a rough guideline would be that the two events are in the same town or the same part of a city on the same day, and seem to be related quite closely. That seems to be the intention of the Groundspeak guideline.

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But yes, if I have an event in Bath and someone wants to have one in Bristol the same day, they are not intended for the same audience. Some people may do both, but that is not the intent. And they can't be merged. Now in general we tend to avoid events on the same day. In the rare case - hypothetical example: I submit an evening event in Bath; there is already a request for an event in Bristol that same night in the queue. Telling me I can't have mine as there is a clashing one in Bristol is probably a good thing - I know some people from Bristol generally attend my events, I don't want to create a conflict. If the Bristol event is at lunchtime and my Bath event is in the evening, then I don't see a conflict.

 

I do not see any reason for requiring that there are no conflicts between events. That's definitely not part of the event stacking guideline. That's just a personal wish of one part of the community who likes to be present at most/all events that take place in the area.

 

Not all events are of the meet and greet type which try to reach out to as many interested cachers as possible. Every event should be open to everyone who wants to attend it and is able to but not every event needs to appeal to everyone and needs to make sure that everyone can attend. Small events which would be impossible in larger places under the new rules have their own charme. Not every event needs to be of the type that attracts everyone from very experienced to complete newcomer.

 

I intentionally used the GIFF example as I think there is no good reason for cachers with not the slightest interest into those movies to not come up with their own event within even 10 miles of a GIFF event (so number tweaking will not resolve all issues).

 

There is a difference between maybe getting an exception granted by a reviewer or having to fight with appeals (which typically does not make sense for a small local event as it will take too long) and clear guidelines which do not forbid event scenarios as the one mentioned above. Given the new UK guidelines, many cachers will never submit an event which does not comply and so does not play a role whether the reviewers will handle the cases less strictly than according to their rules.

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I was sorry to read the change in underground rules. This will inevitably lead to a dropping off of these caches in the UK as COs leave and existing ones stop being maintained.

 

Geocaching got me into caving and I feel that there will be many people who never get the opportunity to get a taste of what underground exploration has to offer.

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Groundspeak are sitting on one of the best business models I’ve seen, it's similar to eBay in many ways. They basically run a web site, maintain a database, put out a weekly newsletter & make a lot of money from doing very little.

 

All the actual hard work is done by us cachers, who take the time & trouble to place/list our caches.

 

They’ve even managed to enlist the help of volunteer cachers - to make sure the rest of us cachers follow the rules - for free! …...I said it was a good business model.

 

These volunteer cachers are, generally, good at their task of reviewing new caches. Where the system fails, though, is allowing these reviewers to make the rules up.

 

Rules should be created by people that are knowledgable about the issue they are addressing &/or have a basic understanding of law.

 

-

 

As an example of why this is necessary, we just need to look at the new rule regarding underground caches.

 

The new rule stipulates that you have to show you have permission from the relevant landowner. The farcical part of this has already been pointed out:

 

The Landowner, and Access Rights Holder, in many cases are different, That comes from personal experience, of organising events, underground. And from a cache published around 2006, where the Cache Owner, had obtained Permission off the Landowner, yet it turned out that the Land Owner had no Legal Rights, in regards to the Underground Facility, so could not Legally give Permission for the Placement of the Cache. Which was refused Permission, by the Access Rights Holder, even though the Underground Facility was not Gated. The whole affair turned very nasty!

 

Their excuse for introducing this new rule is, supposedly, 'bat preservation'. But, as has previously been stated, by someone who actually does professional bat surveys:

 

Whilst I commend the consideration for bats, what about bats roosting and hibernating in trees. All the UK bat species use trees as habitat, 3/4 are known to roost in trees and quite a few live exclusively in trees (in holes, behind bark, in bird/bat boxes). Will there be similar proof of permission required for any cache which risks disturbing them? What about under bridges as well, which also get used by bats?

 

These two points, alone, clearly show why reviewers are not up to the task of creating rules.

 

I presumed issues regarding bats would be global, not just limited to the UK. A more sceptical person might say that 'bat preservation’ is just a thinly veiled excuse for effectively putting a stop to any future underground caches in the UK. As the vast majority of COs just won’t be willing to spend the time & effort tracking down the landowner, in order to try & get their permission, this will most probably be the case.

 

-

 

We can moan on here (or other social media sites) until we are blue in the face, it will not make a scrap of difference. The only way to get Groundspeak’s attention/interest, is to tell them you won’t be renewing your subscription because of recent ridiculous rule changes. When it looks like profits will be effected, it’s amazing what can get sorted out.

 

I was wondering…...are there any “Meet the Reviewers” ego-stroking events coming up soon? If there are, I’m sure there'll be more attendees there than usual. And not just because another nearby event was rejected.

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Please can you explain what will happen at Mega events when there are several separate events in the same location or close by and even on the same day?

 

Also why are you making new rules rather than use Groundspeaks, surely we can appeal your decisions?

 

We look forward to you reply

This article in the Help Center explains about Mega and side events. If you wanted any other events during a mega week the new guidance won't stop them despite everything people are saying.

 

We didn't make up this 'rule' it's already in the guidelines for events. All we've done (with the help of Geocaching HQ) is to clarify it by giving a time and distance. As with all the guidelines they are flexible. People are convinced we never relax guidelines. We do quite often. When we do it means a cache\event will get published and no one knows what we did. If we refuse a cache (or event) for very obvious guideline reasons then everyone knows about it and we're accused of "enforcing the rules".

 

As I understand it from recent posts on Facebook, the Bun & Brew Event (Gooodbye Event) will not be taking place this year, even though there is no other event taking place within 20 miles or 10 hours on the Monday

I understand that the event has been appealed and still it will not be going ahead

 

This event does not seem to have anything to do with the main camping event but with the Mega itself and indeed the above help centre article states that a Meet & Greet Event and Goodbye Event are encouraged

 

If what I have heard is true, then surely these new guidelines will affect the Mega Experience as a whole, even though some are saying that it will not

Everyone that I have mentioned this to have been disappointed that we will not be having a Goodbye Event this year

 

I seldom use the Forum's but feel strongly enough to comment on this

 

I am not having a go at the reviewers as they do a great job, and I partially get the reason for the event stacking guidelines

 

Apologies if I haven't got the full story or if I have got an incorrect version of the story

 

But surely this is a backward step, surely there is something that can be done so that the Goodbye Event can go ahead as normal

Edited by Nutty + Evil

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It's hard to ask for clarification without giving an example, but what is the principal problem that this rule is trying to solve? Cases I can think of don't seem to fall foul of the Groundspeak guidelines...

"Events with several elements, a sequence of events, or events that are near the same time or location and intended for the same audience should be submitted as a single event. "

...but appear to be disallowed under the new UK 20-mile rule unless merged with another unrelated event, which sounds like a tall order in most cases.

As there appears to be unwillingness on the part of the reviewers to explain their stance on this, I've studied the Facebook threads on the subject and will have a stab at answering my own question, using what I've gleaned from the very vague and evasive official replies I've seen. This may, of course, be wide of the mark but with no clarification forthcoming it invites speculation. Clearly the rule has NOT been brought in to bolster the Groundspeak guidelines, which seem to be addressing a different issue (one of splitting an event up artificially when it should really be one - an example would be where an event is set up for a daytime activity with a limited time slot, and another for an evening social meet, only a few miles from where the activity takes place. Although this is convenient for the organisers and for the attendees, it creates a headache for reviewers in some way so is strongly discouraged.).

 

The big problem that has caused this emergency rule to be brought in is NOT that events have been split like this, but that large numbers of geocachers have been posting "attended" logs for two or more UNRELATED events on the same day. Hence the rule being applied using a twenty mile guideline (which could easily be over a hundred miles by road). The problem with this isn't clear, but it seems to boil down to there being too many events to review.

 

To try and stamp this behaviour out and reduce the workload, there's an effort to reduce the number of event listings (the repeated reply from reviewers is "why do you need a smiley for each event?"). I guess that the thing to do if there are likely to be several events on a particular day throughout the region (such as there were on "Pi Day") is to merge them together and go for a dummy location, explaining in the description where to go should you wish to attend any of the events. So there would be a generic "East Midlands" event, for instance, where the description would contain a list of coordinates for all the related events, along with times (no mention of the actual venue, of course, as it would be seen as "commercial" then!). If you turned up at the cache coordinates there would be a notice telling you where to go next. That way you'd only be able to post a "will attend" on the one cache, and only be able to post an "attended" on the same cache (although you'd probably post several of each). I would think that the actual administration of the events would be via Facebook (which is what I suggested years ago), so the cache description would also have links to the relevant Facebook events.

Edited by Happy Humphrey

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The big problem that has caused this emergency rule to be brought in is NOT that events have been split like this, but that large numbers of geocachers have been posting "attended" logs for two or more UNRELATED events on the same day. Hence the rule being applied using a twenty mile guideline (which could easily be over a hundred miles by road). The problem with this isn't clear, but it seems to boil down to there being too many events to review.

 

If that really is true, then I see it as a very problematic that GS supports these rules which differ from the rules applied somewhere else, and what now happened in the UK, could happen soon somewhere else too.

 

We should not forget that it is GS who did a lot to foster multiple unrelated events (e.g. by special souvenirs). As to the "why do you need a smiley for each event?" question, I would like to mention that in the early times in many regions there existed only a single event listing for regularly occuring events and they were recycled. It was GS and the reviewers who did not support this approach (which I preferred) any longer.

 

I would think that the actual administration of the events would be via Facebook (which is what I suggested years ago), so the cache description would also have links to the relevant Facebook events.

 

I hope that will never ever happen. Geocaching events should not be administered via Facebook or any other social media platform - first, many cachers are not active there (and do want to keep it that way) and second, it's almost impossible for non locals to be aware of the many facebook groups (moreover, many of them are closed anyway).

 

If there is a general problem with too many event, it's up to GS to find a suitable solution and that solution should be applied world wide.

 

BTW: My personal guess for why parts of the new rule were introduced would rather have been that some reviewers and some cachers do not like if unrelated events take place not far from each other because they wish to meet as many cachers as possible with one event visit and/or like to attend all events within their reach.

Edited by cezanne

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Speaking as someone who earns his living from the interpretation of rules to best practical effect, here is my feedback. Firstly, the less rules the better and I hope for very few rules in geocaching. So make the rules we need really to be needed. I think it was Voltaire who said, "rules are the downfall of civilisation" but don't quote me. However, obviously we need some rules to minimise us all from time doing something stupid or a bit naughty now and then. So be it.

 

Caves, adits, culverts, etc. On the one hand yes, totally agree, with lands owners / access rights permission - as difficult as it can be to identify and contact these guys. But, it's amazing how many don't care until you ask. Meanwhile cavers (and I love you guys just using you as an example), urbexers, graffiti artists, joe public, go in without issue. I guess why are paying the price for being "organised" via geocaching.com. I don't really think Highways England or Network Rail really care about anyone going in culverts. Granted they can't gate them less them form a dam and increase flood risk but when do you ever see a sign - I can't think of any. I think they'd only really care if damage was caused to them or if someone had to be "dug out". Geocaching wise I think this will stop a lot of good future caches that would have been both great fun but no great risk to the Corporate Body. When asked Corporate Bodies have to say no like the good corporate risk controllers they have to be. So okay, its fair for the decision to be permission has to be documented. My feedback: suppose it has to be, okay.

 

Glad sense has been seen on bats. I have lost count how many I have seen whilst caching. You leave them alone, they leave you alone, everyone (including Bat Groups)seem happy. Most maternity hibernation / roosts seem well protected these days to keep humans out (as they should be). My feedback: Well done the reviewers! (Now, please bat panicers, stop getting upset if some logs "I saw a bat").

 

However, come on. What is wrong with event stacking? I have never done it. But really, what is wrong with someone working there way around a region on Pi day afternoon getting to see as many of their caching friends as possible and patronise as many events as they choose. I have never seen any event organisers take offence at someone event hopping. Usually quite the opposite in that they are glad their event has increased its patronage. Its supposed to be a free world. What if someone is mobility challenged and they have to travel a longer distance now than they otherwise would due to these .com restrictions on the first 4 dimensions of physics. Same on camping events, so what if people want their event to last for 48 hrs. What if you can't make that 30 mins that day but can that evening / day after. My feedback: you've got it very wrong geocaching.com / reviewers.

 

I love Geocaching.com, mostly. But you have to remember cachers want excitement. Fail to give that via rules of no value, fail to allow imagination, fail to allow a reasonable free judgement and people will go an set up alternative websites with less rules / more enjoyment.

Edited by offbeam

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I would think that the actual administration of the events would be via Facebook (which is what I suggested years ago), so the cache description would also have links to the relevant Facebook events.

 

I hope that will never ever happen. Geocaching events should not be administered via Facebook or any other social media platform - first, many cachers are not active there (and do want to keep it that way) and second, it's almost impossible for non locals to be aware of the many facebook groups (moreover, many of them are closed anyway).

 

If there is a general problem with too many event, it's up to GS to find a suitable solution and that solution should be applied world wide.

 

BTW: My personal guess for why parts of the new rule were introduced would rather have been that some reviewers and some cachers do not like if unrelated events take place not far from each other because they wish to meet as many cachers as possible with one event visit and/or like to attend all events within their reach.

On the Facebook question; the cache description would mention what to do about joining the Facebook event page, and the GC.com cache page would act as a general notice about the events of that date. For those few who aren't into FB (and the quietness of the forum indicates how many have moved to FB) there would be enough on the cache page to provide basic details. GC.com event pages aren't very good for events anyway, as they are really designed for caches and have just been tweaked so that they work (in a clunky fashion) for events. As Groundspeak don't seem interested in updating the features to suit the modern world there has to be some sort of get-around. No surprise that there always seems to be endless rule changes and controversy when people try and shoehorn their events into this format.

 

On your personal guess - you could be right, but it's not a good reason to inconvenience the organisers, who really are the people to decide whether another event rivals theirs. Should I put an event together and then discover that there's another the same evening 15 miles away I'll make the decision about whether to cancel/rearrange/liaise with the other organiser/go ahead anyway, based on what I know about the local scene. Why the reviewer needs to get involved is what we're speculating about.

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On the Facebook question; the cache description would mention what to do about joining the Facebook event page,

 

But who then controls that everyone gets access if they want to get access and what about privacy concerns? On Facebook using pseudonyms is not very common and even those who use Facebook privately in a limited manner might not be happy with using that account for geocaching.

 

For those few who aren't into FB (and the quietness of the forum indicates how many have moved to FB)

 

Yes, many have, but many of those FB groups are closed - you need to be a member of them. Moreover, at least in my country there is a really large number of small FB groups, often very local or very specialized ones.

Often these groups are used for sharing solutions of puzzles, for talking badly about those who do not have access etc).

 

there would be enough on the cache page to provide basic details.

 

I rather think that less and less events then would be announced on gc.com at all and that#s excludes those I have mentioned in my earlier post.

 

On your personal guess - you could be right, but it's not a good reason to inconvenience the organisers, who really are the people to decide whether another event rivals theirs. Should I put an event together and then discover that there's another the same evening 15 miles away I'll make the decision about whether to cancel/rearrange/liaise with the other organiser/go ahead anyway, based on what I know about the local scene. Why the reviewer needs to get involved is what we're speculating about.

 

I'm not in favour of the changed rules and I'm questioning them too.

 

The new rules are inconveniencing organizers in any case - it's pretty clear that if only a single event is allowed within a certain time and distance neighbourhood, then the resulting events need to be larger and the facilities need to allow that. I do not think that dummy locations with separate meetings points for subgroups will be allowed so it boils down to larger events at the posted coordinates. On days where events are popular it's also the end for the small local event in the inn around the corner.

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...or is it all, again, just about the fundamentalist attitude of not wanting to make a smiley too easy to get?

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...or is it all, again, just about the fundamentalist attitude of not wanting to make a smiley too easy to get?

Could be, but I have to say that I haven't a clue why that should be an attitude. Events are meant to be meetups, not challenges. It's not even a smiley really; just a note to say you attended, plus a stat.

Edited by Happy Humphrey

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Glad sense has been seen on bats. I have lost count how many I have seen whilst caching. You leave them alone, they leave you alone, everyone (including Bat Groups)seem happy. Most maternity hibernation / roosts seem well protected these days to keep humans out (as they should be). My feedback: Well done the reviewers! (Now, please bat panicers, stop getting upset if some logs "I saw a bat").

 

I'm interested in where you're seeing all your bats. Is it caves/mines/tunnels/quarries etc which have been included in the new guidelines or is it other locations such as old structures/bridges/trees?

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I'm glad this has come about. The reviewer team in the UK with a few minor exceptions have lost touch with how the game is played nowadays. Many have been reviewers for years and years sometimes a decade. Many of them don't even go out caching anymore. Why are the people making decisions about geocaching in the UK, when they have no idea what is going on out there?

 

They are referred to as "volunteer reviewers", they aren't, they are invited. There are numerous other people throughout the country who do the finding, do the hiding, go to events meeting people who would happily volunteer but are never given the option to.

 

I have done many many tunnel caches and have never come across a single bat in any of them. The reviewers are just coming up with excuses just to prevent any out of the ordinary caches going into their review queue.

 

As for the events, you've killed it for most people now. Gone are the days of finding boxes. Most people nowadays are social cachers .

 

Well done guys well done. I'll buy you each a pint at the next ego stroking event 😍

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I'm glad this has come about. The reviewer team in the UK with a few minor exceptions have lost touch with how the game is played nowadays. Many have been reviewers for years and years sometimes a decade. Many of them don't even go out caching anymore. Why are the people making decisions about geocaching in the UK, when they have no idea what is going on out there?

 

 

I am not sure that any of the current reviewing team have been in place for more than 8 years........almost exactly :ph34r: :ph34r:

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