The things people write in logs and do to cache's.

[+Team_Vod]

.

Edited May 28, 2016 by SUX_VR_40_Rider

[+narcissa]

So now it is in a clear plastic box inside the museum that has to be requested from the museum staff.

 

Thank you for bringing another guidelines violation to the attention of the entire forum.

[+CFphoto]

So now it is in a clear plastic box inside the museum that has to be requested from the museum staff.

 

Thank you for bringing another guidelines violation to the attention of the entire forum.

 

Is that problematic?

[+Team_Vod]

.

Edited May 28, 2016 by SUX_VR_40_Rider

[Keystone]

A cache that requires you to go inside a building and interact with staff is against the listing guidelines. It didn't have that design when published. But now, a "Needs Archived" log would alert the local reviewer to the change made by the cache owner.

[+narcissa]

So now it is in a clear plastic box inside the museum that has to be requested from the museum staff.

 

Thank you for bringing another guidelines violation to the attention of the entire forum.

 

I am not sure what you mean. This was done at the request/behest of the cache owner and in conjunction/cooperation with the museum.

 

The cache in question has also been adopted by someone more local, with the permission and request of the original CO as the original CO moved entirely out of the area.

 

Let me guess you're going to say that is a violation as well.

 

Caches that require staff interaction typically aren't permitted. I don't know if non-profit entities like museums get more flexibility with this, since it's part of the restriction on commercial caches. I'm also curious to know if this "secondary container" idea is actually allowed. I guess we're about to find out!

[+Team_Vod]

.y the cache and logging the find for years to come?

Edited May 28, 2016 by SUX_VR_40_Rider

[+Team_Vod]

.

Edited May 28, 2016 by SUX_VR_40_Rider

[+T.D.M.22]

If am not mistaken ANYTHING can be used as a cache container according to another forum discussion where I asked that very question. More than one person stated as much.

 

Yes, anything can be used as a cache container. But where the container is, could be a problem.

[+Team Taran]

This solution may be the best solution to the problems but it is a guideline violation. By posting it in the forum rather than simply logging it on line you may cause a fun cache to be archived. On the other hand, it is possible that if the problems with the cache were caused by a small group of idiots enough time has passed and the cache can be rehidden in conformance with the guidelines. Time will tell.

[Pup Patrol]

If am not mistaken ANYTHING can be used as a cache container according to another forum discussion where I asked that very question. More than one person stated as much.

 

Not much point in trying to distract from the actual problem. Who said anything about the cache container being changed?

 

You might want to read Keystone's post. He's a Reviewer.

 

B.

[Pup Patrol]

So now it is in a clear plastic box inside the museum that has to be requested from the museum staff.

 

Thank you for bringing another guidelines violation to the attention of the entire forum.

 

I am not sure what you mean. This was done at the request/behest of the cache owner and in conjunction/cooperation with the museum.

 

The cache in question has also been adopted by someone more local, with the permission and request of the original CO as the original CO moved entirely out of the area.

 

Let me guess you're going to say that is a violation as well.

 

Seems like you're trying to be obtuse.

 

Why don't you very carefully read the Guidelines:

 

https://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

 

B.

[+niraD]

You must have missed the part where the museum helps maintain the security of the cache, though I did not specifically state that.

No, didn't miss it. But it really doesn't matter.

 

What is the better option here?

 

Have the cache continuously messed with, vulgarities written in the log and stolen if left in the original location which would generate multiple and repeated NM and possibly NA reports where eventually no one would be able to even remotely enjoy the cache?

 

OR

 

Come to a compromise and and agreement between the CO and the non-profit, public facility/museum staff, to move the cache to a more secure location where such things as vulgarities written into the log, theft of the cache, etc. will not occur and all geocacher's can continue to enjoy the cache and logging the find for years to come?

Why not take a third option?

 

Move the cache slightly, to a new location that complies with the guidelines, that doesn't require interaction with staff.

[+Manville Possum]

So now it is in a clear plastic box inside the museum that has to be requested from the museum staff.

 

Thank you for bringing another guidelines violation to the attention of the entire forum.

 

Yes, it need archived by the GeoPolice.

[+Manville Possum]

Move the cache slightly, to a new location that complies with the guidelines, that doesn't require interaction with staff.

 

Like this one.

[+redsox_mark]

My thoughts

 

1. Yes, sometimes people write rude things in cache logs, or do worse things to them.

2. When that happens repeatedly, moving the cache somewhere else (or archiving it completely) should be considered.

3. I won't argue with a reviewer, but the way I read the guidelines they aren't so clear. It talks about "perceived as commercial", and mentions "business".

 

I've found a recently published cache (and the cache unchanged post-publication) which clearly says on the page you need to ask a specific question to someone inside a museum to get the cache. The museum is free and government owned. I assume the reviewer decided this was not "perceived as commercial". But it is also possible they made a mistake.

 

In the cache I found, the interaction was one of the most fun parts of the cache.

 

I can understand not wanting to have a cacher need to interact with employees in a commercial business (where they may feel pressure to buy something).

 

It isn't clear to me that being required to interact with a person in a non-commercial location is forbidden.

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

[+Ladybug Kids]

Yes, I have found caches with vulgar things written and drawn in the logs. I have also found ammo cans that were used as latrines. There is simply a segment of the population (fortunately, a small segment), that does not know how to behave in polite society.

 

The cache could be placed somewhere in the museum where cachers can access the cache without interacting with staff. There are several caches in Southcentral Alaska at public lands visitor centers (State Park, National Forest, National Parks, etc.) where the container is next to/under/near the guest book. I have seen the same done in at chamber of commerce visitor centers. If this is done, the cache page clearly needs to state the hours of availability and there are attributes that can be added to the cache page to indicated limited hours of availability.

[+narcissa]

My thoughts

 

1. Yes, sometimes people write rude things in cache logs, or do worse things to them.

2. When that happens repeatedly, moving the cache somewhere else (or archiving it completely) should be considered.

3. I won't argue with a reviewer, but the way I read the guidelines they aren't so clear. It talks about "perceived as commercial", and mentions "business".

 

I've found a recently published cache (and the cache unchanged post-publication) which clearly says on the page you need to ask a specific question to someone inside a museum to get the cache. The museum is free and government owned. I assume the reviewer decided this was not "perceived as commercial". But it is also possible they made a mistake.

 

In the cache I found, the interaction was one of the most fun parts of the cache.

 

I can understand not wanting to have a cacher need to interact with employees in a commercial business (where they may feel pressure to buy something).

 

It isn't clear to me that being required to interact with a person in a non-commercial location is forbidden.

 

Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

 

It has overtones of advertising, marketing or promotion.

It suggests or requires that the finder go inside a business, interact with employees and/or purchase a product or service.

It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.

It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.

It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

 

This is what I was wondering about too, but I have always had the impression that staff interaction is frowned upon whether it's commercial or otherwise.

[+narcissa]

You must have missed the part where the museum helps maintain the security of the cache, though I did not specifically state that.

 

What is the better option here?

 

Have the cache continuously messed with, vulgarities written in the log and stolen if left in the original location which would generate multiple and repeated NM and possibly NA reports where eventually no one would be able to even remotely enjoy the cache?

 

OR

 

Come to a compromise and and agreement between the CO and the non-profit, public facility/museum staff, to move the cache to a more secure location where such things as vulgarities written into the log, theft of the cache, etc. will not occur and all geocacher's can continue to enjoy the cache and logging the find for years to come?

 

The only option is to find a solution that complies with the guidelines.

[+Wet Pancake Touring Club]

Yes, I have found caches with vulgar things written and drawn in the logs. I have also found ammo cans that were used as latrines. There is simply a segment of the population (fortunately, a small segment), that does not know how to behave in polite society.

 

The cache could be placed somewhere in the museum where cachers can access the cache without interacting with staff. There are several caches in Southcentral Alaska at public lands visitor centers (State Park, National Forest, National Parks, etc.) where the container is next to/under/near the guest book. I have seen the same done in at chamber of commerce visitor centers. If this is done, the cache page clearly needs to state the hours of availability and there are attributes that can be added to the cache page to indicated limited hours of availability.

Likewise, I've seen this done for indoor caches.

 

I've even found one cache where the guest book was also the geocaching log book. No swag allowed at that cache.

[+redsox_mark]

The cache could be placed somewhere in the museum where cachers can access the cache without interacting with staff. There are several caches in Southcentral Alaska at public lands visitor centers (State Park, National Forest, National Parks, etc.) where the container is next to/under/near the guest book. I have seen the same done in at chamber of commerce visitor centers. If this is done, the cache page clearly needs to state the hours of availability and there are attributes that can be added to the cache page to indicated limited hours of availability.

 

I understand this (though depending how you read the guidelines, even having to go "inside" could be considered against the guidelines).

 

However I don't see what is wrong with staff (or volunteer) interaction in a non-commercial setting. (Apart from those guidelines which confuse me).

 

The example I gave was in Wales. After finding all the clues, you had to say a sentence in Welsh (which was basically "can I have the cache please"). I don't speak Welsh (and even in Wales only 20% of the population does). So it added extra fun to try and say it. The CO could have securely hidden the cache somewhere in museum grounds which didn't require this interaction. They chose to do so to make the cache more fun.

[+Ladybug Kids]

One problem is defining the line between a commercial and a non-profit business. Some museums are owned by for profit entities. Many are non-profit. Some charge an entrance fee. Some do not. Rather than have the Reviewer try to sort out whether an establishment is a commercial business, it's better to consistently review caches from the perspective of "can the cache be accessed without interacting with staff?"

Edited May 27, 2016 by Ladybug Kids

[+J Grouchy]

It was orginally outside, in a man made container that was sunk into the ground with the permission of the museum.

 

So now it is in a clear plastic box inside the museum that has to be requested from the museum staff.

 

Both violate guidelines.

 

There IS precedent, though people seem squeamish when it comes to the use of that word. I guess it's more accurate to state that there are other caches that end up requiring interaction with staff that really aren't in danger of getting archived.

[+niraD]

FWIW, another approach I've seen used for a museum-type cache is for the cache itself to be a log-only micro that could be accessed without interacting with the staff at all. But it was a multi-stage cache, and each stage produced a keyword that wasn't needed to find the cache. If you showed all the keywords to the staff at the info desk, then they'd give you a gift bag. (Mine included a nice lanyard that I use at work every day to hold my access/ID badge.) But the keywords and the gift bag were completely optional.

[+niraD]

Have others come across or heard of anything like this where steps had to be taken to help protect a cache from such things?

Back on topic...

 

Not long after I started, there was a rash of juvenile vandalism to several local caches, including one that I owned, and another that I ended up adopting. One approach that worked was to disable the vandalized cache, remove the vandalized container, leave the spot inactive for a few weeks, and then replace the cache with a different container and a slightly different location.

 

Replacing the same container in the same hiding spot over and over doesn't help. The vandals are almost certainly local, and they'll keep returning, stepping up the vandalism each time. But if you give them time to forget about the container they found and vandalized, and then move the replacement somewhat, then they might leave the replacement alone.

 

Another approach is to just archive the vandalized cache. Hopefully, the cache that inevitably fills the hole in the saturation map will be different enough to avoid the vandals' attention.

[+Manville Possum]

FWIW, another approach I've seen used for a museum-type cache is for the cache itself to be a log-only micro that could be accessed without interacting with the staff at all.

 

And this cache also has one of those "after hours" micros.

[+niraD]

FWIW, another approach I've seen used for a museum-type cache is for the cache itself to be a log-only micro that could be accessed without interacting with the staff at all.

And this cache also has one of those "after hours" micros.

The cache I'm referring to did not have an "after hours" option. The log-only micro was inside the center (run by a government agency, with no admission fee), and was available only during the center's normal hours. It really wasn't all that different from a library cache, except for the bonus gift bag that did require interaction with the staff.

[+Manville Possum]

FWIW, another approach I've seen used for a museum-type cache is for the cache itself to be a log-only micro that could be accessed without interacting with the staff at all.

And this cache also has one of those "after hours" micros.

The cache I'm referring to did not have an "after hours" option. The log-only micro was inside the center (run by a government agency, with no admission fee), and was available only during the center's normal hours. It really wasn't all that different from a library cache, except for the bonus gift bag that did require interaction with the staff.

 

I have discussed that bonus cache idea with a State Park. After a local geocacher filed a formal complaint against the Land Manager for his failure to comply with their new policy, I think that idea is off the table now.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Manville Possum

[+justintim1999]

If it's a non profit organization and they are not charging admission I don't see why not? I also don't get the aversion to human interaction. If all parties are willing to participate than again, why not? I get the reasons for the commercial aspect of the guidelines but in some situations the above example should be allowed.

[+narcissa]

FWIW, another approach I've seen used for a museum-type cache is for the cache itself to be a log-only micro that could be accessed without interacting with the staff at all. But it was a multi-stage cache, and each stage produced a keyword that wasn't needed to find the cache. If you showed all the keywords to the staff at the info desk, then they'd give you a gift bag. (Mine included a nice lanyard that I use at work every day to hold my access/ID badge.) But the keywords and the gift bag were completely optional.

 

That's a great solution!

[+The A-Team]

If it's a non profit organization and they are not charging admission I don't see why not? I also don't get the aversion to human interaction. If all parties are willing to participate than again, why not? I get the reasons for the commercial aspect of the guidelines but in some situations the above example should be allowed.

It's the whole slippery slope thing. If they allow interaction in some cases, then they have to define where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable cases. For example, what about a non-profit that charges admission? What if the interaction is occurring in a gift shop in the museum? There are so many possible scenarios that it's difficult to define an objective limit, so it's easier to simply avoid it altogether.

[+justintim1999]

If it's a non profit organization and they are not charging admission I don't see why not? I also don't get the aversion to human interaction. If all parties are willing to participate than again, why not? I get the reasons for the commercial aspect of the guidelines but in some situations the above example should be allowed.

It's the whole slippery slope thing. If they allow interaction in some cases, then they have to define where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable cases. For example, what about a non-profit that charges admission? What if the interaction is occurring in a gift shop in the museum? There are so many possible scenarios that it's difficult to define an objective limit, so it's easier to simply avoid it altogether.

 

I see your point but it all sounds harder than it has to be. A few guidelines on placement and acceptable interaction and we're off. Sure Caches like this would be open to more scrutiny and I'm sure you'd have to answer a few more questions to get one published.

 

It would be easier to avoid dealing with them but would caching be better if they were allowed?

[+Harry Dolphin]

I found a cache inside a city visitors center, and required asking the clerk for the cache. I thought it was okay.

I did find a cache once, that obviously the local kids knew about. It had a large note inside that said: "Leave money."

[+narcissa]

I found a cache inside a city visitors center, and required asking the clerk for the cache. I thought it was okay.

I did find a cache once, that obviously the local kids knew about. It had a large note inside that said: "Leave money."

 

I think we have visited a couple of caches in visitor centres like that. One was in Pittsburgh, I think.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Have others come across or heard of anything like this where steps had to be taken to help protect a cache from such things?

 

I can think of one in Ethiopia (at the time I found it, the next closest was about 200 miles away). It was originally hidden outside a hotel but was muggled several times in the first year. It was then moved inside where one could ask for "the box". If you read the logs you'll see that for many, it was their first find in Ethiopia and for some their first find in Africa. Since it's been moved inside the D/T rating was also changed to a 1/1 making it available to those in a wheel chair.

While it might technically violate the *guidelines*, this is one of the few guidelines that I am glad some reviewers will grant a little leniency.

[+The A-Team]

I found a cache inside a city visitors center, and required asking the clerk for the cache. I thought it was okay.

I've only found one cache that was at an information desk, and it didn't require any interaction with staff. The container was sitting at the end of a counter behind, but off to the side, of the main desk with one of the green "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE" stickers on the side. It was indoors and in a spot where the staff could keep an eye on it, but there was no need to interact with them at all to make the find. The only people I interacted with at that cache were some other cachers that happened to come by at the same time.

 

I'm sure in most cases, a similar setup could be employed to make the cache self-serve.

[+Manville Possum]

Have others come across or heard of anything like this where steps had to be taken to help protect a cache from such things?

 

I can think of one in Ethiopia (at the time I found it, the next closest was about 200 miles away). It was originally hidden outside a hotel but was muggled several times in the first year. It was then moved inside where one could ask for "the box". If you read the logs you'll see that for many, it was their first find in Ethiopia and for some their first find in Africa. Since it's been moved inside the D/T rating was also changed to a 1/1 making it available to those in a wheel chair.

While it might technically violate the *guidelines*, this is one of the few guidelines that I am glad some reviewers will grant a little leniency.

 

I know that there are caches in Africa on game preserves, and those "Inside the Wire" caches on Military bases abroad, but hopefully those guidelines don't apply here in the US.

[+KatnissRue]

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems that a mountain is being made out of a molehill here. What we have here is a new cacher who wants to make new and unique caches, and now this is being turned into a legalistic battle over the guidelines. Just privately ask for things to be changed with the cache. No need for a public roasting.

 

*Edited to fix a spelling mistake

Edited May 28, 2016 by KaRue

[Pup Patrol]

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems that a mountain is being made out of a molehill here. What we have here is a new cacher who wants to make new and unique caches, and now this is being turned into a legalistic battle over the guidelines. Just privately ask for things to be changed with the cache. No need for a public roasting.

 

*Edited to fix a spelling mistake

 

You didn't read the original post before the OP played the dirty trick of completely removing it. You don't have the complete picture of why people responded the way they did, including a Reviewer.

 

OP has quite the forum history at this point.

 

This thread was not about asking how to create a new cache. It was about an existing cache that he found. Not the first time this sort of post has been made here by the OP.

 

B.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Pup Patrol

[+narcissa]

For those who are curious, here is the link to the cache that was discussed in the original, now deleted, post:

 

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GCE34B_lc-sergeant-floyd-river-museum?guid=b18a3534-03fa-4efa-a13c-70126e9ab49c

[+CFphoto]

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems that a mountain is being made out of a molehill here. What we have here is a new cacher who wants to make new and unique caches, and now this is being turned into a legalistic battle over the guidelines. Just privately ask for things to be changed with the cache. No need for a public roasting.

 

*Edited to fix a spelling mistake

 

You didn't read the original post before the OP played the dirty trick of completely removing it. You don't have the complete picture of why people responded the way they did, including a Reviewer.

 

OP has quite the forum history at this point.

 

This thread was not about asking how to create a new cache. It was about an existing cache that he found. Not the first time this sort of post has been made here by the OP.

 

The OP asked a perfectly legitimate question and was scolded inappropriately by another member before others piled on. And you wonder why the OP deleted the post? Either he (or she) was wrong for asking in the first place, in which case removing the post makes sense, or he wasn't, in which case it was removed due to inappropriate attacks from other members. Either way, removing it was logical, even if it's not what I would have done myself.

[+Manville Possum]

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but it seems that a mountain is being made out of a molehill here. What we have here is a new cacher who wants to make new and unique caches, and now this is being turned into a legalistic battle over the guidelines. Just privately ask for things to be changed with the cache. No need for a public roasting.

 

*Edited to fix a spelling mistake

 

You didn't read the original post before the OP played the dirty trick of completely removing it. You don't have the complete picture of why people responded the way they did, including a Reviewer.

 

OP has quite the forum history at this point.

 

This thread was not about asking how to create a new cache. It was about an existing cache that he found. Not the first time this sort of post has been made here by the OP.

 

The OP asked a perfectly legitimate question and was scolded inappropriately by another member before others piled on. And you wonder why the OP deleted the post? Either he (or she) was wrong for asking in the first place, in which case removing the post makes sense, or he wasn't, in which case it was removed due to inappropriate attacks from other members. Either way, removing it was logical, even if it's not what I would have done myself.

 

I don't think it was logical to remove the posts. I think the logical thing to do is be a good steward of the game and post an NA with "needs reviewers attention" on the listing for guideline violations.

[+CFphoto]

Like I said, I wouldn't have done it myself but I certainly understand the reasons someone would.

[Keystone]

I am closing this thread in order to forestall further confusion resulting from the OP's violation of Forum Guideline 12.