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When is a cache location "inappropriate"


BFG99

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A high school buddy of mine, who is also a cacher, told me recently that he plans to plant several new microcaches in and around the rural town I grew up in. Most of them are innocuous, but I have to question one of them. He plans to put a microcache on a large bronze statue of a rearing stallion such that the cacher must reach into the statue's penile sheath to retrieve the cache. While that's pretty innocent (and kind of funny) for the average farmer or rancher, I can't help but think that's wholly inappropriate for children, especially those who didn't grow up in a farming community. Not to mention that it could damage the statue over time.

 

I've already advised my friend against it. But what do you think? Innocent or not? Is there a line to draw (beyond the official rules) on when a cache location is in poor taste?

 

 

EDIT: Grr, just noticed that I typoed the topic. Don't suppose the admin could change the "in" to "is" for me?

Edited by BFG99
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"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

This is probably the most-violated guideline I see, but I can't imagine he will get permission from whoever controls the statue to hide it there.

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"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

This is probably the most-violated guideline I see, but I can't imagine he will get permission from whoever controls the statue to hide it there.

 

That's an important detail that I should have mentioned - it's actually a privately owned statue at the front of a farm driveway, and he claims he already has the necessary permission. I asked him that too. I have to wonder if he specified where on the statue he was going to put it though.

Edited by BFG99
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Regardless of whatever pearl-clutching happens because of the stallion's reproductive organ, this clearly violates this guideline as well:

 

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

 

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Asking people to touch, climb on, and reach into a work of art is certainly a violation of this guideline.

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Regardless of whatever pearl-clutching happens because of the stallion's reproductive organ, this clearly violates this guideline as well:

 

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

 

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Excellent point. I will be sure and point that out to him, thanks. Frankly I don't think he completely thought through the impact dozens of greasy (or clean!) hands would have on bronze over time.

 

So, in this case it's clear it's a rules violation. But, I'm still curious about thoughts on the larger question - when shouldn't a cache be placed (if ever) because it's in poor taste, assuming it doesn't violate any rules?

 

EDIT: And yeah, I agree someone will inevitably get offended, and it could get stolen. Probably wouldn't be any of the locals but still.

The "offended" piece is their prerogative, but stealing the cache puts them in the wrong more than the cache-placer.

Edited by BFG99
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Regardless of whatever pearl-clutching happens because of the stallion's reproductive organ, this clearly violates this guideline as well:

 

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

 

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Excellent point. I will be sure and point that out to him, thanks. Frankly I don't think he completely thought through the impact dozens of greasy (or clean!) hands would have on bronze over time.

 

So, in this case it's clear it's a rules violation. But, I'm still curious about thoughts on the larger question - when shouldn't a cache be placed (if ever) because it's in poor taste, assuming it doesn't violate any rules?

 

I was just glancing at the guidelines and they say the contents must be family-friendly, but they don't say the location must be. I honestly don't know what way this would go if someone complained about it. There is an attribute for "not child friendly" or whatever. There are caches meant to be done nude, and caches near strip clubs and sex shops. So, I just don't know.

 

I know my school age kid would laugh all the way home after finding it. :laughing:

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Honestly if someone made the statue so you could put a cache in that specific spot, I'd be more concerned about the person designing the statue than the CO.

 

As an adult, if you feel uncomfortable, then turn around and find one of the other 2 million+ caches in the world. As a parent then you can decide the same thing for your kid. It's not up to the reviewer to say if you should go for the cache. No different than deciding a cache on the side of a mountain is beyond your skill level, or that power trails are boring. Yet some people like both of those. People are different, so what's OK for one person isn't fine with another. I guess what I'm saying is that the cacher should make the decision, not anyone else.

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Anyone else disturbed by the fact that the statue is apparently realistic enough to actually provide a cavity in that area with room for a cache?

 

The second cache I ever found was hidden inside a bronze statue of a couple sitting on a bench. It requires you to reach under and up inside the "seat" of the male figure in the sculpture. It's not quite the same as what you are describing, obviously...but your post reminded me of how awkward it was for me to make that particular grab. :laughing:

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Anyone else disturbed by the fact that the statue is apparently realistic enough to actually provide a cavity in that area with room for a cache?

That truly never occurred to me - guess I got desensitized from my years in the farming community and then as a biochemist!

 

It's an impressive statue in that the anatomy - all of the anatomy - nails it for realism. It's especially impressive what they did with the mane and tail to make it look like it's flowing in the wind, and the leg muscles look like they're rippling as they would in real life while a horse is rearing. I wish I could link you to a picture of it but doing so would reveal where I grew up and, potentially, my personal details.

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Honestly if someone made the statue so you could put a cache in that specific spot, I'd be more concerned about the person designing the statue than the CO.

 

As an adult, if you feel uncomfortable, then turn around and find one of the other 2 million+ caches in the world. As a parent then you can decide the same thing for your kid. It's not up to the reviewer to say if you should go for the cache. No different than deciding a cache on the side of a mountain is beyond your skill level, or that power trails are boring. Yet some people like both of those. People are different, so what's OK for one person isn't fine with another. I guess what I'm saying is that the cacher should make the decision, not anyone else.

 

If someone is trying to create a realistic representation of an animal, it seems silly for them to gloss over one part of its anatomy.

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Regardless of whatever pearl-clutching happens because of the stallion's reproductive organ, this clearly violates this guideline as well:

 

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

 

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Asking people to touch, climb on, and reach into a work of art is certainly a violation of this guideline.

What if it's a work of art that is intended for people to touch, climb on, and reach into? Yes, I've seen (and felt :)) works of art like that.

 

And I've spoken with artists who have created pieces for public installations. By necessity, they design their art so it can withstand MUCH more than a few geocachers running their hands over it while searching for hidden containers.

 

But FWIW, I have found a cache that was hidden inside a statue of an animal. In that case, it was hidden in an opening found under the base of the animal's tail. :o

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Regardless of whatever pearl-clutching happens because of the stallion's reproductive organ, this clearly violates this guideline as well:

 

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

 

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Asking people to touch, climb on, and reach into a work of art is certainly a violation of this guideline.

 

My bold - While that might be true is certain, rare, circumstances e.g. particularly delicate works, it's nonsense to claim it as an overarching principle. If that's true for a statue then it's true for a bench, a street sign, a lamp post, and a myriad of other things. Many public works are meant to be touched.

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Regardless of whatever pearl-clutching happens because of the stallion's reproductive organ, this clearly violates this guideline as well:

 

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

 

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Asking people to touch, climb on, and reach into a work of art is certainly a violation of this guideline.

What if it's a work of art that is intended for people to touch, climb on, and reach into? Yes, I've seen (and felt :)) works of art like that.

 

And I've spoken with artists who have created pieces for public installations. By necessity, they design their art so it can withstand MUCH more than a few geocachers running their hands over it while searching for hidden containers.

 

But FWIW, I have found a cache that was hidden inside a statue of an animal. In that case, it was hidden in an opening found under the base of the animal's tail. :o

 

That would be good information to include on the cache page and in notes to the reviewer.

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Regardless of whatever pearl-clutching happens because of the stallion's reproductive organ, this clearly violates this guideline as well:

 

Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property.

 

Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

Asking people to touch, climb on, and reach into a work of art is certainly a violation of this guideline.

What if it's a work of art that is intended for people to touch, climb on, and reach into? Yes, I've seen (and felt :)) works of art like that.

 

And I've spoken with artists who have created pieces for public installations. By necessity, they design their art so it can withstand MUCH more than a few geocachers running their hands over it while searching for hidden containers.

 

But FWIW, I have found a cache that was hidden inside a statue of an animal. In that case, it was hidden in an opening found under the base of the animal's tail. :o

I guess someone forgot to tell the Lackey's that...

 

handsintheair.jpeg

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Really not much different than the pile of micros we've found hidden up animals and birds (what did that politician say? Oh yeah...) wherever.

 

Cache creep (not put back properly) or someone uncomfortable being seen putting it back will move it to a better spot, I'd bet.

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I have to admit, this conversation ended up in a completely different spot than what I expected. Seems like the consensus would be that, so long as it doesn't violate the rules (no property or art installation destruction, you have explicit permission, etc.), and perhaps provided that the cache-finder is given a good idea of the cache's nature in the description, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with this or similar caches. I suppose I'd be inclined to agree, frankly.

 

I'll pass this conversation along to my friend as he's not a Groundspeak member. He'll have to find out if the statue is likely to be damaged by long-term exposure to people's hands. If it's not then I suppose he can proceed.

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I'll pass this conversation along to my friend as he's not a Groundspeak member. He'll have to find out if the statue is likely to be damaged by long-term exposure to people's hands. If it's not then I suppose he can proceed.

 

If your friend is not a Groundspeak member, them maybe you should post your concerns in the forums on whatever geocaching site he is a member of.

I would be interested in their guidelines and thoughts on this subject too. :)

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...he's not a Groundspeak member.

That takes this discussion in a totally different direction.

-Is the proposed geocache intended to be listed on this listing site, a different listing site, or will it just be an informal cache to be shared locally by word-of-mouth/Facebook/local website?

-If the cache isn't going to be listed on this site, then a lot of this discussion about the rules/guidelines has been moot (though they're still good guidelines to follow anyway even if it'll be listed elsewhere).

-If the cache is intended to be listed on this site, then your friend has a lot of reading to do. This is a good place to start: Help Center - Hiding a Geocache

 

FWIW, anyone can read these forums without being logged in (with the exception of the Off-Topic section), so your friend can read this whole discussion for himself.

 

Edit to add: Also, I have to wonder how many caches he's found. Has he been out caching with you? Does he have enough experience with caching to be able to take on the responsibilities of cache ownership? Has he been around long enough to determine that he'll stick with it and maintain the cache?

Edited by The A-Team
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All good questions. I'll have to find out what his intentions are and encourage him to join the site. I can confirm though that he's not a member of another geocaching site; he's been downloading from (I think) Groundspeak without ever creating an account, and tracking what caches he found on his handheld GPS. He's really not that serious of a cacher - only goes out on occasion - and yeah, I wonder too how seriously he'll take his upkeep requirements.

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He's really not that serious of a cacher - only goes out on occasion - and yeah, I wonder too how seriously he'll take his upkeep requirements.

 

If this were my friend and he were contemplating a geocache hide as you describe, I would change the subject if he ever mentioned it again. Geocache ownership is not for everyone, and hiding a cache as you describe is a little disturbing and not family friendly. :blink:

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I can confirm though that he's not a member of another geocaching site; he's been downloading from (I think) Groundspeak without ever creating an account, and tracking what caches he found on his handheld GPS.

Is it possible to download cache info "without ever creating an account"? I'd assume he'd at least have to have a Basic Member account to get cache info.

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I can confirm though that he's not a member of another geocaching site; he's been downloading from (I think) Groundspeak without ever creating an account, and tracking what caches he found on his handheld GPS.

Is it possible to download cache info "without ever creating an account"? I'd assume he'd at least have to have a Basic Member account to get cache info.

 

It does't look like it. Going to the geocaching.com home page and the first thing it asks you do do is create and account. Going to a cache listing without logging in and it doesn't show coordinates.

 

Remember the Geomate Jr? It came preloaded with caches but I have no idea if one can navigate to them without setting up an account first.

 

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I don't think you can see cache info without logging in but you can use the account of a friend or family member. It also is possible to find coordinates in other ways- exif data on photos or utube videos for esample. Also I think some Garmin gpses came with preloaded caches. Also a significant number of caches were cross listed on Garmin's opencaching site. Is that still accessible? I'm not sure why anyone would go to so much trouble we you can just register with a throw away email.

Edited by Team Taran
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I owned a cache many many years ago where the container was up a horse's rear end. I thought about it for a while before placing, but I'd heard stories of how much people enjoyed other caches of this nature (where are those pictures of the lion statue? :)) People really liked my cache. It was a great art piece and it was unfortunate that the cache only lasted a year because it was a temporary installment. Really wish the city had bought it up because it's been my favorite out of all the art in town.

 

As usual, permission fixes most issues. If the CO has permission to hide on the statue, there shouldn't be a problem. I personally don't have a problem with the placement, because technically, it shouldn't be any different than any other part of the statue. I would feel uncomfortable if the cache description was juvenile about the placement, but that may just be a personal viewpoint. If nobody makes a big deal about where the cache is, then it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

Here's a picture of the art that I used:

 

e347b73b-8bc5-4982-8ed5-590ee4455d74_l.jpg

Edited by Ambrosia
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All good questions. I'll have to find out what his intentions are and encourage him to join the site. I can confirm though that he's not a member of another geocaching site; he's been downloading from (I think) Groundspeak without ever creating an account, and tracking what caches he found on his handheld GPS. He's really not that serious of a cacher - only goes out on occasion - and yeah, I wonder too how seriously he'll take his upkeep requirements.

 

Not possible. One has to be at least a Basic Member of Groundspeak to get coordinates of caches listed on this site.

 

If you're not a member, or not logged in, then no coordinates are shown.

 

Doesn't sound like a good candidate for hiding caches, no matter what geocaching site he belongs to.

 

 

B.

Edited by Pup Patrol
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Anyone else disturbed by the fact that the statue is apparently realistic enough to actually provide a cavity in that area with room for a cache?

 

The second cache I ever found was hidden inside a bronze statue of a couple sitting on a bench. It requires you to reach under and up inside the "seat" of the male figure in the sculpture. It's not quite the same as what you are describing, obviously...but your post reminded me of how awkward it was for me to make that particular grab. :laughing:

Not me.

 

Don't get me wrong, i'm not the type of person who thinks "anything goes" when geocaching. But this is something that is neither naughty or xrated. My 8 year old would not be scarred for life if she witnessed me finding a cache here. It would be something fairly easy to explain if she was curious and posed questions. I do have to say that we are more country than city so we do look at things differently than many people. B)

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Just spoke with my friend, sounds like he's willing to join Groundspeak to keep better track of his finds and to advertise his caches. That's a good thing.

 

He also assured me that the cache in question would be well-hidden. Apparently there's more room on the statue in question than the similar one I posted photos of. I...will readily admit I have not looked that closely at it, particularly since it's been 5 years since I was last home.

 

Since he has permission, the only remaining question is whether it would cause any damage. That statue has been out in the elements for at least 20 years so he's thinking it wouldn't but will check with the farmer first.

 

In short, I think all is well now.

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If he feels that strongly that he wants to hide a cache there then that is up to him. I don't have a problem with it.

 

I personally wouldn't do it. We attend many events and have many friends who we cache with. I wouldn't want to be known as they guy who decided to hide a cache there.

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Yeah, I wouldn't want to be known as the guy who hid that cache either! To each their own though, I guess.

 

He probably does know that bronze cannot rust (a fact I'd forgotten, honestly), but we were thinking more along the lines of multiple hail and ice storms, and at least one weak tornado, that it has survived thus far. The thinking was that if it can survive that, it can probably survive a few hands!

 

Anyway, guess it's up to him since he's got the owner's permission.

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Yeah, I wouldn't want to be known as the guy who hid that cache either! To each their own though, I guess.

 

He probably does know that bronze cannot rust (a fact I'd forgotten, honestly), but we were thinking more along the lines of multiple hail and ice storms, and at least one weak tornado, that it has survived thus far. The thinking was that if it can survive that, it can probably survive a few hands!

 

Anyway, guess it's up to him since he's got the owner's permission.

 

I was thinking more that it's not magnetic.

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FWIW, repeated touching can remove the patina from bronze statues. It's actually pretty easy to Google photos of bronze statues where specific parts have been polished by repeated touching. (I also found instructions for applying paste wax to protect the patina of a bronze statue that might be touched by the public.)

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Non-magnetic? Now that IS a problem. I bet he doesn't know that, and I certainly didn't realize it. Honestly I'd never tried a magnet with bronze. Still, I'm assuming it's at an upright angle so could still work. (No, I haven't looked that closely at it!)

 

Yep, the patina wear is the main thing I'd worry about if I were the owner. I remember being in London years ago and seeing several modern statues of varying metals that had had similar wear. The bronze and copper ones seemed to have the biggest issues.

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Attaching the cache, securely, to the statue may be tough. I found a cache attached to a statue using velcro, but I don't know what kind of effect the glue residue will have on the statue when it's eventually removed.

 

If the entire statue is the focal point of the cache, then it might be better to try hiding the cache somewhere around the base of the statue. If that particular part of the statue is the focal point of the cache, then it will be more challenging.

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If the entire statue is the focal point of the cache, then it might be better to try hiding the cache somewhere around the base of the statue. If that particular part of the statue is the focal point of the cache, then it will be more challenging.

I thought somewhere around the front of the base of the statue might be cool. I don't know if it's like the picture. Can small steel plate be slid under partway, held by the base? Something like that? If so, a matchtube or even larger container with a magnet could go there. Disguised as a mouse! :laughing: Maybe. That explains the horse's reaction. :anicute:

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If the entire statue is the focal point of the cache, then it might be better to try hiding the cache somewhere around the base of the statue. If that particular part of the statue is the focal point of the cache, then it will be more challenging.

I thought somewhere around the front of the base of the statue might be cool. I don't know if it's like the picture. Can small steel plate be slid under partway, held by the base? Something like that? If so, a matchtube or even larger container with a magnet could go there. Disguised as a mouse! :laughing: Maybe. That explains the horse's reaction. :anicute:

 

Ah, I like that! I'll suggest that to him. And best part is it wouldn't damage the statue. Frankly I think he's putting way too much focus on where on the statue he wants to place it...

I'd imagine it would be relatively easy to place a "mouse" container in the grass or perhaps slid under a gap between the base and the dirt? That would also negate my concern about whether it's "kid friendly".

Edited by BFG99
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Does the statue have any sort of plaque or engraving on it? He could have the cachers use information on it to calculate a short redirect to the actual cache. This is a pretty standard way to get cachers to visit statues and monuments without causing damage.

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Good question, I honestly don't remember (it has been 5 years since I was there after all). I don't think so though, I believe it's just decoration for the front of a gravel driveway that goes into a horse breeder's homestead. I'll ask him.

 

I'm hoping he'll sign up for Groundspeak soon so he can comment here directly instead of me doing so by proxy.

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I'm hoping he'll sign up for Groundspeak soon so he can comment here directly instead of me doing so by proxy.

Your friend's first idea for a hide reminds me of the enthusiasm of Tim, a friend of mine. Tim signed up, but hadn't found caches yet. I was talking about a hide I had planned, and he smiled and said, “You know what I'd like to do! Hide it in a box of cereal!”. Grinning from ear-to ear, he was imagining Geocachers having to carefully dig through the cereal for a small container without making a mess, then they'd have to put everything back in place again. He thought that would just plain be the best Geocache ever.

 

I think I said something like “Huh. Um, that would be challenging for sure.”

 

As far as I know, he still wants to hide that. :anicute:

Edited by kunarion
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Just following up on an old topic here. Sounds like he's not going to place this one after all - I think he decided he didn't want to have to upkeep the cache. Personally I think it's a good call; it'd be a shame if the statue was damaged in any way.

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and hiding a cache as you describe is a little disturbing and not family friendly. :blink:

 

While I would neither hide a cache there nor like to search for a cache anywhere at the statue, I do not agree at all with the above which again demonstrates that family friendly means something different to different people.

It's a statue of a horse after all and that's like a horse looks like.

 

Would you also have an issue with children e.g. being present during the process when an animal gives birth?

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