Adding additional hints

[+justintim1999]

I have a series of 6 traditionals and a puzzle. The puzzle requires finding the 6 traditionals and gathering information to find it. So far 43 people have found the puzzle. If all goes well it takes about 3-4 hours to complete and can range anywhere from 3 to 5 miles depending on your approach. A few additional hints would make it much easier for the new to average cacher. Would I be diminishing the accomplishment for the ones who already found it by providing the additional help?

[+narcissa]

No, changing the cache descriptions to add hints won't erase previous finds.

[+justintim1999]

No, changing the cache descriptions to add hints won't erase previous finds.

 

Would it somehow lessen the accomplishment of the previous finders who didn't have the additional hints?

[+NanCycle]

No, changing the cache descriptions to add hints won't erase previous finds.

 

Would it somehow lessen the accomplishment of the previous finders who didn't have the additional hints?

 

They might feel that way, but I wouldn't worry about it. On my puzzle caches, the FTF has to do them without any hints; later I might add hints based on the kind of questions I get from others trying to solve them.

[+justintim1999]

No, changing the cache descriptions to add hints won't erase previous finds.

 

Would it somehow lessen the accomplishment of the previous finders who didn't have the additional hints?

 

They might feel that way, but I wouldn't worry about it. On my puzzle caches, the FTF has to do them without any hints; later I might add hints based on the kind of questions I get from others trying to solve them.

 

The series is straight forward. No complicated math just attention to detail is required. Most of the feed back has been positive. I get the sense that some cachers are avoiding the series because it looks like it may be too difficult.

[+narcissa]

No, changing the cache descriptions to add hints won't erase previous finds.

 

Would it somehow lessen the accomplishment of the previous finders who didn't have the additional hints?

 

No, the finds won't be affected.

[+niraD]

On my puzzle caches, the FTF has to do them without any hints; later I might add hints based on the kind of questions I get from others trying to solve them.

+1

 

I've added hints over time. As NanCycle described, some were in response to questions I received. In general, if someone asked a question and I thought the answer might be relevant to others, then I incorporated the answer into the hint, or into the description directly.

 

Other times, I just decided that I wanted to provide a little more information to those seeking the cache.

[+cerberus1]

In general, if someone asked a question and I thought the answer might be relevant to others, then I incorporated the answer into the hint, or into the description directly.

+1

Most times it ended up in the cache page description, but two we "corrected/added to" hints from questions asked by others.

[+Pond Bird]

I've seen cachers add hints after a few years of finds and DNFs to provide more information, those to find it before might feel more accomplished finding the cache without the additional hints. For puzzles often times the FTF has had NO hint whatsoever and has solved the puzzle. I know LCSM and Spooko13 have solved puzzles without additional hints from the owner and have successfully had FTF and/or FTS on the puzzle caches themselves.

[+dprovan]

Of course not. The people that found it before can continue to be as proud as they ever were of their accomplishment.

[+noncentric]

The series is straight forward. No complicated math just attention to detail is required. Most of the feed back has been positive. I get the sense that some cachers are avoiding the series because it looks like it may be too difficult.

As others have posted, it seems fine to add hints later on.

 

However, I'm curious why you think adding hints will make a difference. Most of the traditionals have had about 53 finds, with one of the traditionals having 49. The bonus cache has 43 finds, so it seems most of the cachers finding all the trads are also pursuing the bonus.

 

The trads themselves do not have many DNF's, so it doesn't seem that finding the caches has been difficult. Hints may make the finding easier, but it doesn't seem like that's currently an issue.

 

Are you concerned about the cachers that are not pursuing the bonus? Perhaps they didn't read the trad cache descriptions and so they didn't realize there was a bonus, or maybe they just don't like going after 'Mystery' caches. Instead of hints, maybe it would help to have the required info from each trad within the trad cache, rather than having to find a 'symbol' and then look for coords within 20ft. That section of the bonus cache description is a bit confusing, so simplifying the instructions might be more helpful than adding hints.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

No, changing the cache descriptions to add hints won't erase previous finds.

 

Would it somehow lessen the accomplishment of the previous finders who didn't have the additional hints?

 

No, the finds won't be affected.

 

It seems to me that the only people that can answer the question if they felt that their accomplishment was lessened would be those that have previously found it and nobody else should be telling them how they are supposed to feel.

 

 

[+justintim1999]

The series is straight forward. No complicated math just attention to detail is required. Most of the feed back has been positive. I get the sense that some cachers are avoiding the series because it looks like it may be too difficult.

As others have posted, it seems fine to add hints later on.

 

However, I'm curious why you think adding hints will make a difference. Most of the traditionals have had about 53 finds, with one of the traditionals having 49. The bonus cache has 43 finds, so it seems most of the cachers finding all the trads are also pursuing the bonus.

 

The trads themselves do not have many DNF's, so it doesn't seem that finding the caches has been difficult. Hints may make the finding easier, but it doesn't seem like that's currently an issue.

 

Are you concerned about the cachers that are not pursuing the bonus? Perhaps they didn't read the trad cache descriptions and so they didn't realize there was a bonus, or maybe they just don't like going after 'Mystery' caches. Instead of hints, maybe it would help to have the required info from each trad within the trad cache, rather than having to find a 'symbol' and then look for coords within 20ft. That section of the bonus cache description is a bit confusing, so simplifying the instructions might be more helpful than adding hints.

 

The symbols are all within the traditionals except for one which involves using a pair of binoculars to see. All the coords (except for one) are clearly visible from ground zero.

 

You think the description on the puzzle page is confusing? The series is story based so I'm not sure how to simplify it without removing some of the mystery.

 

I think part of the problem is the 1st marker. This is the one that uses the binoculars. The cache contains a pair of binoculars and a laminated photo with coords on the back. The coords lead you to a spot about 80 feet from the cache. The photo shows you where to stand and use the binoculars. About 100 feet across the water is a small wooden box (like a birdhouse with no front) inside is the symbol. You can see the box without the binoculars but not the symbol. Being marker 1 people tend to start with this one and the additional step seems to throw people off. Once they've found some of the others (and they know what they are looking for} it becomes clear.

 

I didn't know if explaining these thing would help people get started. Something like:

 

An additional step is required at marker 1 to obtain the symbol.

 

The entire series can be done in 3-4 hours but may require an additional trip.

 

All but one of the missing coords can be seen clearly from ground zero.

 

When you first read the mystery page it seems daunting but when you start collecting the info it's really not that hard.

 

All of them are unconventional hides so you have to work a little to find them. I'm wondering if people are more interested in a quick find rather than a more time consuming adventure?

[+dprovan]

It seems to me that the only people that can answer the question if they felt that their accomplishment was lessened would be those that have previously found it and nobody else should be telling them how they are supposed to feel.

I'm not telling them how to feel, I'm just pointing out that nothing's changed about their accomplishment. My hope, of course, is to get them away from the destructive attitude that their accomplishments can only be measured in relation to the accomplishments of others.

[+GeoTrekker26]

What a neat set of caches! I wish I was in your part of the world so I could take a crack at them, multi caches with puzzles are my favorite, and your series is almost a multi. You have had several dozen cachers complete the series and many favored it, so I don't see the need to add a hint. Instead of adding a hint, you might consider changing the phrase "A symbol located on each marker" to something like "a symbol can be seen at each marker." It might be enough to nudge people in the right direction.

 

Well done!

[+justintim1999]

What a neat set of caches! I wish I was in your part of the world so I could take a crack at them, multi caches with puzzles are my favorite, and your series is almost a multi. You have had several dozen cachers complete the series and many favored it, so I don't see the need to add a hint. Instead of adding a hint, you might consider changing the phrase "A symbol located on each marker" to something like "a symbol can be seen at each marker." It might be enough to nudge people in the right direction.

 

Well done!

 

Thanks. I guess the question is what's the marker? Is it the cache container or what ever has the symbol on it. Most of the marker containers have the symbol on or in them. Marker 1 is the only one that is separate from the container. I'm not sure how to word it on the cache page without giving too much away. I may just add a hint for marker 1. I was hoping that the laminated picture with the cords would have been enough. Once they find that one they'll know what their looking for.

 

This all stems from a new cacher who decided to make this series his first. Understandably he had a little trouble figuring out what to do. Surprisingly, with a few hints, he was able to complete the series. I'd like the series to be doable for new cachers and interesting for the veterans. Striking that balance isn't easy.

[+narcissa]

What a neat set of caches! I wish I was in your part of the world so I could take a crack at them, multi caches with puzzles are my favorite, and your series is almost a multi. You have had several dozen cachers complete the series and many favored it, so I don't see the need to add a hint. Instead of adding a hint, you might consider changing the phrase "A symbol located on each marker" to something like "a symbol can be seen at each marker." It might be enough to nudge people in the right direction.

 

Well done!

 

Thanks. I guess the question is what's the marker? Is it the cache container or what ever has the symbol on it. Most of the marker containers have the symbol on or in them. Marker 1 is the only one that is separate from the container. I'm not sure how to word it on the cache page without giving too much away. I may just add a hint for marker 1. I was hoping that the laminated picture with the cords would have been enough. Once they find that one they'll know what their looking for.

 

This all stems from a new cacher who decided to make this series his first. Understandably he had a little trouble figuring out what to do. Surprisingly, with a few hints, he was able to complete the series. I'd like the series to be doable for new cachers and interesting for the veterans. Striking that balance isn't easy.

 

It's cool that a new cacher wanted to take that on. So often, new cachers stay away from things that are challenging and it's awesome that you were willing to help them along.

 

I think more than diminishing someone else's "accomplishment," adding hints runs the risk that future finders don't have the option of doing things the more difficult way.

 

Maybe a good compromise is to just make it really clear on the cache pages that you are willing to lend help to anyone who asks, but that you don't want to put in too many hints and spoilers for the people who are more hard-core about doing it on their own.

[+justintim1999]

What a neat set of caches! I wish I was in your part of the world so I could take a crack at them, multi caches with puzzles are my favorite, and your series is almost a multi. You have had several dozen cachers complete the series and many favored it, so I don't see the need to add a hint. Instead of adding a hint, you might consider changing the phrase "A symbol located on each marker" to something like "a symbol can be seen at each marker." It might be enough to nudge people in the right direction.

 

Well done!

 

Thanks. I guess the question is what's the marker? Is it the cache container or what ever has the symbol on it. Most of the marker containers have the symbol on or in them. Marker 1 is the only one that is separate from the container. I'm not sure how to word it on the cache page without giving too much away. I may just add a hint for marker 1. I was hoping that the laminated picture with the cords would have been enough. Once they find that one they'll know what their looking for.

 

This all stems from a new cacher who decided to make this series his first. Understandably he had a little trouble figuring out what to do. Surprisingly, with a few hints, he was able to complete the series. I'd like the series to be doable for new cachers and interesting for the veterans. Striking that balance isn't easy.

 

It's cool that a new cacher wanted to take that on. So often, new cachers stay away from things that are challenging and it's awesome that you were willing to help them along.

 

I think more than diminishing someone else's "accomplishment," adding hints runs the risk that future finders don't have the option of doing things the more difficult way.

 

Maybe a good compromise is to just make it really clear on the cache pages that you are willing to lend help to anyone who asks, but that you don't want to put in too many hints and spoilers for the people who are more hard-core about doing it on their own.

 

I thought it was cool also. What surprised me was the 5 trips he made out there to finish it and the fact he didn't hesitate to e-mail me for help. True geocaching sprit. The odd thing is he had the right cords to the final but never logged it.

Edited May 17, 2016 by justintim1999

[+noncentric]

The series is straight forward. No complicated math just attention to detail is required. Most of the feed back has been positive. I get the sense that some cachers are avoiding the series because it looks like it may be too difficult.

As others have posted, it seems fine to add hints later on.

 

However, I'm curious why you think adding hints will make a difference. Most of the traditionals have had about 53 finds, with one of the traditionals having 49. The bonus cache has 43 finds, so it seems most of the cachers finding all the trads are also pursuing the bonus.

 

The trads themselves do not have many DNF's, so it doesn't seem that finding the caches has been difficult. Hints may make the finding easier, but it doesn't seem like that's currently an issue.

 

Are you concerned about the cachers that are not pursuing the bonus? Perhaps they didn't read the trad cache descriptions and so they didn't realize there was a bonus, or maybe they just don't like going after 'Mystery' caches. Instead of hints, maybe it would help to have the required info from each trad within the trad cache, rather than having to find a 'symbol' and then look for coords within 20ft. That section of the bonus cache description is a bit confusing, so simplifying the instructions might be more helpful than adding hints.

 

The symbols are all within the traditionals except for one which involves using a pair of binoculars to see. All the coords (except for one) are clearly visible from ground zero.

 

You think the description on the puzzle page is confusing? The series is story based so I'm not sure how to simplify it without removing some of the mystery.

 

I think part of the problem is the 1st marker. This is the one that uses the binoculars. The cache contains a pair of binoculars and a laminated photo with coords on the back. The coords lead you to a spot about 80 feet from the cache. The photo shows you where to stand and use the binoculars. About 100 feet across the water is a small wooden box (like a birdhouse with no front) inside is the symbol. You can see the box without the binoculars but not the symbol. Being marker 1 people tend to start with this one and the additional step seems to throw people off. Once they've found some of the others (and they know what they are looking for} it becomes clear.

 

I didn't know if explaining these thing would help people get started. Something like:

 

An additional step is required at marker 1 to obtain the symbol.

 

The entire series can be done in 3-4 hours but may require an additional trip.

 

All but one of the missing coords can be seen clearly from ground zero.

 

When you first read the mystery page it seems daunting but when you start collecting the info it's really not that hard.

 

All of them are unconventional hides so you have to work a little to find them. I'm wondering if people are more interested in a quick find rather than a more time consuming adventure?

It sounds like finding the trads themselves is not difficult, so no need to add hints about their hiding spots.

 

The confusion seems to be about the 'series' aspect. Collecting the necessary information at each trad seems to be the where more clarification is needed. Right now, each Trad's cache description is essentially a link to the Mystery bonus cache. It might help to add something to each Traditional's cache description to remind cachers that they need to collect information at that cache. Adding text to each Trad's cache description would allow you to have different text for Marker 1 than for the other Marker caches.

 

I think the term 'marker' contributes to some of the confusion. Maybe cachers, especially new ones, think that they should be looking for something like a signpost or mile marker when it says "A symbol located on each marker". Is it clear to them that they should be looking for the symbol in the cache itself? I understand that the "marker" term is part of the story, but some cachers might associate "marker" with something like a sign.

 

Good work on creating a full series.

 

-----

One nit-picky thing about the mystery cache description. You mention that each marker has "two (2) pieces of information you will need to collect" - then you have a line that say "1st: xxx" but there's no line that says "2nd: xxx". I had to read the following sentences a couple times to understand that the "Within 20 feet of each marker..." sentence was the second piece of information. I think most readers, if they are told there are 2 things, will look for a "2" after they see a "1". Maybe change that section to something like?

At each of the 6 markers listed above are two (2) pieces of information you will need to collect. WRITE BOTH DOWN AND SAVE THEM.

1st: A symbol located in each Marker cache.

2nd: A piece of the missing coordinates, which is within 20 feet of each Marker cache.

[+noncentric]

I think part of the problem is the 1st marker. This is the one that uses the binoculars. The cache contains a pair of binoculars and a laminated photo with coords on the back. The coords lead you to a spot about 80 feet from the cache. The photo shows you where to stand and use the binoculars. About 100 feet across the water is a small wooden box (like a birdhouse with no front) inside is the symbol. You can see the box without the binoculars but not the symbol. Being marker 1 people tend to start with this one and the additional step seems to throw people off. Once they've found some of the others (and they know what they are looking for} it becomes clear.

I'm not sure that all cachers will go in the order of the Trad cache names. Someone entering through the access gate to the north of the Mystery icon might go 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 6 -> 2 -> 1. Someone entering through the West access gate might go 1 -> 2 -> 6 -> 3 -> 5 -> 4. When each 'stage' is an independent cache, then it's much tougher to direct a cacher's path - compared to if it was a multi where one 'stage' has to be found before getting coords for the next 'stage'.

 

All of them are unconventional hides so you have to work a little to find them. I'm wondering if people are more interested in a quick find rather than a more time consuming adventure?

It may be that some cachers just want to find the Trads. There are plenty of cachers than don't want to 'bother' with Mystery or Multi caches. It's also possible that some cachers don't load Mystery caches onto their GPSr's, so they go and find all the Trads but don't understand what information they're supposed to collect at each location because each Trad's cache description refers them to a GC-Code that they don't have on their GPSr. If cell reception is good in that park, then they could pull up the cache page on their phones, but some might just be frustrated and not bother doing that.

[+justintim1999]

The series is straight forward. No complicated math just attention to detail is required. Most of the feed back has been positive. I get the sense that some cachers are avoiding the series because it looks like it may be too difficult.

As others have posted, it seems fine to add hints later on.

 

However, I'm curious why you think adding hints will make a difference. Most of the traditionals have had about 53 finds, with one of the traditionals having 49. The bonus cache has 43 finds, so it seems most of the cachers finding all the trads are also pursuing the bonus.

 

The trads themselves do not have many DNF's, so it doesn't seem that finding the caches has been difficult. Hints may make the finding easier, but it doesn't seem like that's currently an issue.

 

Are you concerned about the cachers that are not pursuing the bonus? Perhaps they didn't read the trad cache descriptions and so they didn't realize there was a bonus, or maybe they just don't like going after 'Mystery' caches. Instead of hints, maybe it would help to have the required info from each trad within the trad cache, rather than having to find a 'symbol' and then look for coords within 20ft. That section of the bonus cache description is a bit confusing, so simplifying the instructions might be more helpful than adding hints.

 

The symbols are all within the traditionals except for one which involves using a pair of binoculars to see. All the coords (except for one) are clearly visible from ground zero.

 

You think the description on the puzzle page is confusing? The series is story based so I'm not sure how to simplify it without removing some of the mystery.

 

I think part of the problem is the 1st marker. This is the one that uses the binoculars. The cache contains a pair of binoculars and a laminated photo with coords on the back. The coords lead you to a spot about 80 feet from the cache. The photo shows you where to stand and use the binoculars. About 100 feet across the water is a small wooden box (like a birdhouse with no front) inside is the symbol. You can see the box without the binoculars but not the symbol. Being marker 1 people tend to start with this one and the additional step seems to throw people off. Once they've found some of the others (and they know what they are looking for} it becomes clear.

 

I didn't know if explaining these thing would help people get started. Something like:

 

An additional step is required at marker 1 to obtain the symbol.

 

The entire series can be done in 3-4 hours but may require an additional trip.

 

All but one of the missing coords can be seen clearly from ground zero.

 

When you first read the mystery page it seems daunting but when you start collecting the info it's really not that hard.

 

All of them are unconventional hides so you have to work a little to find them. I'm wondering if people are more interested in a quick find rather than a more time consuming adventure?

It sounds like finding the trads themselves is not difficult, so no need to add hints about their hiding spots.

 

The confusion seems to be about the 'series' aspect. Collecting the necessary information at each trad seems to be the where more clarification is needed. Right now, each Trad's cache description is essentially a link to the Mystery bonus cache. It might help to add something to each Traditional's cache description to remind cachers that they need to collect information at that cache. Adding text to each Trad's cache description would allow you to have different text for Marker 1 than for the other Marker caches.

 

I think the term 'marker' contributes to some of the confusion. Maybe cachers, especially new ones, think that they should be looking for something like a signpost or mile marker when it says "A symbol located on each marker". Is it clear to them that they should be looking for the symbol in the cache itself? I understand that the "marker" term is part of the story, but some cachers might associate "marker" with something like a sign.

 

Good work on creating a full series.

 

-----

One nit-picky thing about the mystery cache description. You mention that each marker has "two (2) pieces of information you will need to collect" - then you have a line that say "1st: xxx" but there's no line that says "2nd: xxx". I had to read the following sentences a couple times to understand that the "Within 20 feet of each marker..." sentence was the second piece of information. I think most readers, if they are told there are 2 things, will look for a "2" after they see a "1". Maybe change that section to something like?

At each of the 6 markers listed above are two (2) pieces of information you will need to collect. WRITE BOTH DOWN AND SAVE THEM.

1st: A symbol located in each Marker cache.

2nd: A piece of the missing coordinates, which is within 20 feet of each Marker cache.

 

Thanks for the last suggestion. I think I'll do that.

[+justintim1999]

I think part of the problem is the 1st marker. This is the one that uses the binoculars. The cache contains a pair of binoculars and a laminated photo with coords on the back. The coords lead you to a spot about 80 feet from the cache. The photo shows you where to stand and use the binoculars. About 100 feet across the water is a small wooden box (like a birdhouse with no front) inside is the symbol. You can see the box without the binoculars but not the symbol. Being marker 1 people tend to start with this one and the additional step seems to throw people off. Once they've found some of the others (and they know what they are looking for} it becomes clear.

I'm not sure that all cachers will go in the order of the Trad cache names. Someone entering through the access gate to the north of the Mystery icon might go 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 6 -> 2 -> 1. Someone entering through the West access gate might go 1 -> 2 -> 6 -> 3 -> 5 -> 4. When each 'stage' is an independent cache, then it's much tougher to direct a cacher's path - compared to if it was a multi where one 'stage' has to be found before getting coords for the next 'stage'.

 

All of them are unconventional hides so you have to work a little to find them. I'm wondering if people are more interested in a quick find rather than a more time consuming adventure?

It may be that some cachers just want to find the Trads. There are plenty of cachers than don't want to 'bother' with Mystery or Multi caches. It's also possible that some cachers don't load Mystery caches onto their GPSr's, so they go and find all the Trads but don't understand what information they're supposed to collect at each location because each Trad's cache description refers them to a GC-Code that they don't have on their GPSr. If cell reception is good in that park, then they could pull up the cache page on their phones, but some might just be frustrated and not bother doing that.

 

The Traditionals can be done in any order but the order I list in the hints is the overall shortest route. I think your observation is right on. It seems like most cachers tend to shy away from something that looks like too much work. This series was designed for those who enjoy a little challenge.

 

I guess, except for one change, I'll leave it as is. I want finding the mystery cache to be a true accomplishment.