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toczygroszek

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There are simple guidelines of EarthCaches, but I have seen many EC's, what have questionsnot acceptable by guidelines. It's interesting question, why these EC's are published by geoaware, but is not the goal of my topic. My problem is - can I just ignore questions what are not acceptable by EC guidelines? This is a text from gudelines:

"Visitors will use the information from the cache page along with their on-site observations to perform some type of analysis. Their task-solution logs will serve as proof that cachers have visited the site. Questions that only serve to prove that someone visited the site but do not relate to the site's geology are not permitted. "

But I've seen many EC's, where are questions e.g. "how many crosses are on the shrine nearby" or other requires internet research. The are new caches, max 2 years old. Can I just ignore these questions?

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You know what the guidelines are.

Who in their right mind would say, "No. You don't need to worry about the guidelines. Ignore them." ? :laughing:

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There are simple guidelines of EarthCaches, but I have seen many EC's, what have questionsnot acceptable by guidelines. It's interesting question, why these EC's are published by geoaware, but is not the goal of my topic. My problem is - can I just ignore questions what are not acceptable by EC guidelines?

Why would you want to ignore any of the questions? Just answer them and claim the find or don't.

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I don't know whether you can ignore such questions. But I would bring the conflict to the EarthCache owner's attention. That way, it might even get resolved, eliminating the issue for future seekers.

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Just wondering if a finder can ignore questions, what are against the EC guidelines. Why? Just because there are not in general idea of EarthCaching. The same way, as I can ignore task "jump 10 times on jour left leg to claim a find of my traditional cache". My question is simple - can I log a find after answer only to geological questions, ignoring other tasks? Maybe forum is not apropriate for this question, but I'm not sure who should I ask - some geoaware, GSA, Groundspeak? Lackeys or geoawares watching the forum, so maybe I hope someone qualified person will give an official answer. Maybe someone has experience with simmilar situation.

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The only Logging Requirements that I routinely ignore are requests for photos, everything else I would consider grandfathered and would answer to the best of my ability.

 

The EC Guidelines have had several updates over the years, and other than the photo requirement example, all other questions are considered valid at the time of publication.

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If the cache is published and you choose to visit it, you should assume that the tasks were approved by the reviewer and that they are required to log the Earthcache.

 

Photographs are trickier. You don't need to show a photograph of yourself or your GPS, but occasionally there are Earthcaches that ask for photographic data collection and you do need to comply with that.

 

Since you're an honest and prepared Earthcacher who isn't just trying to log an Earthcache that you didn't actually visit, you will see the requirements when you review the Earthcache in advance of your visit. If you think that a particular Earthcache is in violation of the guidelines, it would be better to ask about it before visiting. Visiting the Earthcache and then claiming you aren't required to perform the tasks is needlessly adversarial.

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Just wondering if a finder can ignore questions, what are against the EC guidelines. Why? Just because there are not in general idea of EarthCaching. The same way, as I can ignore task "jump 10 times on jour left leg to claim a find of my traditional cache". My question is simple - can I log a find after answer only to geological questions, ignoring other tasks? Maybe forum is not apropriate for this question, but I'm not sure who should I ask - some geoaware, GSA, Groundspeak? Lackeys or geoawares watching the forum, so maybe I hope someone qualified person will give an official answer. Maybe someone has experience with simmilar situation.

Comparing a task for an EC and an ALR on a traditional aren't equal, and a silly comparison. :rolleyes:

 

I believe all who responded (so far) are "qualified".

On ECs (and you know this), to claim a find, any required tasks need to be completed.

- "Optional" tasks are just that...

 

If you believe the EC has tasks you just don't want to perform, it may be a good idea to just skip that one. :)

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Comparing a task for an EC and an ALR on a traditional aren't equal, and a silly comparison. :rolleyes:

 

I believe all who responded (so far) are "qualified".

On ECs (and you know this), to claim a find, any required tasks need to be completed.

- "Optional" tasks are just that...

 

If you believe the EC has tasks you just don't want to perform, it may be a good idea to just skip that one. :)

 

If the CO asks: What's the third word on the sign, I'll look for it, even though it is not relevant to the lesson. Probably would not be approved these days. But, if I want to log the EarthCache, I will answer the question.

Using your GPS, what is the change in elevation? GPSs are not that accurate. Topo maps work better. But I submitted the answer.

In your estimation, how tall is the cliff? Is it relevant? How am I supposed to determine that? I measured one section of the rock-fall fence, and counted the number of fences above.

How tall is the waterfall? I'll guess 60'. I'm not measuring it.

Which way does the shadow of the tree go? Away from the sun! (One of the worst EarthCaches I've done!) (Why would anyone put a series of EarthCaches in a land fill??)

If the CO asks what the temperature of the water is, I will bring along a thermometer. Measuring tape. Magnetic compass.

A friend has an EarthCache requiring a compass and magnet to test for magnetite and iron ore. Don't walk through and claim a find if you haven't.

I've DNFed two EarthCaches. One in Nova Scotia listed as a 1 terrain. It required a mile walk along the trail. My sister was not up for that. The terrain rating has been changed. The other required a walk up a tall pile of coal mine tailings. There was no trail. Sorry. Looks too dangerous to me!

So: If you want to log an EarthCache, you answer (to the best of your abilities) the questions asked. If you don't want to answer the questions asked, log a DNF, or ignore it.

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The only Logging Requirements that I routinely ignore are requests for photos, everything else I would consider grandfathered and would answer to the best of my ability.

 

The EC Guidelines have had several updates over the years, and other than the photo requirement example, all other questions are considered valid at the time of publication.

 

I am in this camp. I also routinely ignore photos. Older stuff may be crappy, but they were allowed at that time and are typically grandfathered.

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I answer the questions since I'm there anyways. When I'm out and about, the applicable version of the listing guidelines for the cache I'm seeking is not something I think about. I also don't sweat the interpretive details of the questions, and I'll take an educated guess if unsure.

 

I don't mind posting a photo, but I always point out in my log that I've *chosen* to post the *optional* photo. And, I post a smartphone selfie, not "a picture of you holding your GPS in front of the [earthcache target]." That is soooo 2003.

 

So far I've never had an EC log deleted. (Knock on Rock.)

Edited by The Leprechauns
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Maybe I should give a better explanation, why I'm asking aubout that. Idea of EC started years ago. In beginnings it was not very popular type of cache. Every nex year this idea was more nad more popular. Now lot of people making EC just because they can reach another geo-badge or it's simple way to make a "holiday-cache", or distance 161 meters stop them to put a traditional cache, or they want to show a nice spot and don't worry about maintenance and use EC as old virtual. I think that's the reason for GSA to change some rules. One of them is not asking about photos just to proof your find. But there are another rules - e.g. not asking about things not related to geology (e.g number of of benches around the lake) just to proof your visit. There are another rules - you don't nedd to wait for owner's agree to log your find - you can log the cache just after sending answers. But just few days ago I found the cache, where owner says "wait with your log since I will confirm your answers". So I'm not talking about old caches, what are grandfathered, but completely new caches. I'm little disapponted - amazing idea of EC sometimes looks like come back to virtuals. Of course, I can just ignore these caches, but it will not change the fact, that they exist, and new players will place another based on this example. For me find an EC is not another point to badge, but learn something new. The guidelines are for some reasons - just to keep the main idea of EC, and make them special. If owner don't maind about that, as well geoaware, I'm the last, who can do that. I have several options - for example log "needs maintenance" or "needs archived", but I think it might be understood as aggresive. So maybe better is not to answer to forbidden questions. Like don't attach a picture with my face or gps, what is not allowed in guidelines as well.

 

But maybe I'm wrong. Mybe EC are nice spots just for another icon and point to the badge...

Edited by toczygroszek
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The only Logging Requirements that I routinely ignore are requests for photos, everything else I would consider grandfathered and would answer to the best of my ability.

 

The EC Guidelines have had several updates over the years, and other than the photo requirement example, all other questions are considered valid at the time of publication.

 

+1

 

Any time you see an earthcache that basically looks like a virtual cache in disguise, you can bet that it is an older earthcache, probably published before 2010 or so.

 

There were some guideline changes before 2011, but January 2011 is when the GSA and the geoaware team did a big overhaul on the rules and really started focusing on quality. Prior to January 2011, it seemed every other earthcache was either on the magnitude of springs or on the type of waterfall, and they all required a photo. Not so much now.

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Maybe I should give a better explanation, why I'm asking aubout that. Idea of EC started years ago. In beginnings it was not very popular type of cache. Every nex year this idea was more nad more popular. Now lot of people making EC just because they can reach another geo-badge or it's simple way to make a "holiday-cache", or distance 161 meters stop them to put a traditional cache, or they want to show a nice spot and don't worry about maintenance and use EC as old virtual. I think that's the reason for GSA to change some rules. One of them is not asking about photos just to proof your find. But there are another rules - e.g. not asking about things not related to geology (e.g number of of benches around the lake) just to proof your visit. There are another rules - you don't nedd to wait for owner's agree to log your find - you can log the cache just after sending answers. But just few days ago I found the cache, where owner says "wait with your log since I will confirm your answers". So I'm not talking about old caches, what are grandfathered, but completely new caches. I'm little disapponted - amazing idea of EC sometimes looks like come back to virtuals. Of course, I can just ignore these caches, but it will not change the fact, that they exist, and new players will place another based on this example. For me find an EC is not another point to badge, but learn something new. The guidelines are for some reasons - just to keep the main idea of EC, and make them special. If owner don't maind about that, as well geoaware, I'm the last, who can do that. I have several options - for example log "needs maintenance" or "needs archived", but I think it might be understood as aggresive. So maybe better is not to answer to forbidden questions. Like don't attach a picture with my face or gps, what is not allowed in guidelines as well.

 

But maybe I'm wrong. Mybe EC are nice spots just for another icon and point to the badge...

 

Again, if you choose to visit the Earthcache as-is, you should assume that it was in keeping with the guidelines at the time of publication.

 

Ignoring the tasks and logging the Earthcache as found is certainly passive aggressive and will result in log deletion.

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I think the most recent update to the EC Guidelines was 2012 or so. Given what you claim, there are a couple of approaches to your issue:

 

1. You could contact the EC Reviewer to to take another look at the Listing, describing in your email the Guideline conflict that you see. The Reviewer may or may not choose to respond. If they don't, then I would log the EC under the assumption that the Reviewer thinks the initial Review was fine, and my impression was wrong.

 

2. You could log the EC ignoring what you sense are the questions that are in violation of the EC. You could also describe in your email to the CO, your impressions of the Guideline conflict. The CO may agree and make adjustments accordingly. The CO may not agree and could decide to delete your find log, or not. If your log is deleted, you could then escalate the issue to Grounspeak for a final ruling.

 

Either approach may not make you very popular, but it depends on how much time you have to spend on the issue.

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I see two completely unrelated questions. If you think the EC is invalid, then don't do it. If the EC is invalid, it shouldn't exist, so it makes no sense for you to want to log it. If you want to question its existence with the authorities, go ahead.

 

If you want to log the EC, that means you accept it. You are not free to modify the parts that, in your opinion, are broken.

 

Mind you, I think it's perfectly reasonable to hold both positions at the same time: object to the EC yet still log it. But when you log it, you cannot assume the tasks you question have been removed simply because you object to them.

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2. You could log the EC ignoring what you sense are the questions that are in violation of the EC. You could also describe in your email to the CO, your impressions of the Guideline conflict. The CO may agree and make adjustments accordingly. The CO may not agree and could decide to delete your find log, or not. If your log is deleted, you could then escalate the issue to Grounspeak for a final ruling.

 

 

Yes, that's what I will try to do. I think is nothing wrong kindly describe in email to CO, that some questions are not right with guideline, so I ignore them. I can also give a suggestion of new question - related to geology, educational and confirming visit the spot.

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2. You could log the EC ignoring what you sense are the questions that are in violation of the EC. You could also describe in your email to the CO, your impressions of the Guideline conflict. The CO may agree and make adjustments accordingly. The CO may not agree and could decide to delete your find log, or not. If your log is deleted, you could then escalate the issue to Grounspeak for a final ruling.

 

 

Yes, that's what I will try to do. I think is nothing wrong kindly describe in email to CO, that some questions are not right with guideline, so I ignore them. I can also give a suggestion of new question - related to geology, educational and confirming visit the spot.

 

By ignoring the parts you don't like, you are starting from a position where your find is invalid, and then suggesting a task you would rather do?

 

I don't see this ending well.

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I think is nothing wrong kindly describe in email to CO, that some questions are not right with guideline, so I ignore them.

Are you not answering because you can't answer them, or just because you insist on upholding the guidelines?

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I would only ignore requirements that are obviously not grandfathered.

 

  • Post a photo of yourself at the cache site.
  • Email me for permission before logging.

 

I have seen a few, very few where the photo would be allowed. Most of the time people use it to prove you were there or to have a picture collection. Those would not be allowed.

 

I also emailed someone the correct answers to an EarthCache that their educational material was very very wrong.

 

Some of the first and oldest EarthCaches may have questionable logging tasks, but still were ok at the time. Usually they will be considered grandfathered.

Edited by firennice
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I would only ignore requirements that are obviously not grandfathered.

 

  • Post a photo of yourself at the cache site.
  • Email me for permission before logging.

 

I have seen a few, very few where the photo would be allowed. Most of the time people use it to prove you were there or to have a picture collection. Those would not be allowed.

 

I also emailed someone the correct answers to an EarthCache that their educational material was very very wrong.

 

Some of the first and oldest EarthCaches may have questionable logging tasks, but still were ok at the time. Usually they will be considered grandfathered.

 

So you are talking about caches, what are published before new rules in guidelines were implemented. Your explanation is "they are grandfathered". That souds good for me, but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about caches, what are published AFTER the new rules are implemented, and their questions breaking these rules.

 

There is something strange for me. The guidelines says:

- you cannot as about photo of finder

- you cannot ask about permission before log your find

- you cannot ask questions what need internet research

- you cannot ask questions not related to geology just to proof finder's visit.

I did't find any official information, that photos and permissions are main rules prior to other. I can't see any logical explanation, why a picture of myself can I just ignore, but when I will ignore question about something not related to geology it's something wrong. What will you do, if an owner will delete your log, because you didn't attach the piture of you? You will probably contact geoaware or Grondspeak.

There is not a good explanation for me, that if the cache is accepted by geoaware, there is everything OK. Some time ago one of my EC was published, and after few months was archived, because it wasn't right with the guideline. But was published, and existed few months. At the same time few other was archived by the same reason. Another example - just few weeks ago an EC was published, where an owner ask about permission to log the find. So it looks that EC's what breaks the guideline are publish, and afther that, you ignore just the part you want, because... That's my question now - because why?

 

Anyway. I think, is nothing wrong tell the owner, that some questions are against the guideline, and I ignore them. I think, is still nothing wrong tell to him: "hi buddy, when I've been there, I've seen a really interesting structure/mineral in the rock/rock layer, there will be a great idea ask about that I can help you with that". Seriously, I will be very happy, if anyone will give me simillar suggestion in my EC one day. No one, including geoaware, never give me any suggestion or correction. I will try do that and I will share with you my experience. That's the best I can do at the moment, I think.

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I think is nothing wrong kindly describe in email to CO, that some questions are not right with guideline, so I ignore them.

Are you not answering because you can't answer them, or just because you insist on upholding the guidelines?

 

Because I insist on uphilding guidelines. Guidelines for EC were changed by GSA for some reason, and the reason, as I can suspect, is the increasing number of simple virtuals instead geological lesson.

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Another example - just few weeks ago an EC was published, where an owner ask about permission to log the find. So it looks that EC's what breaks the guideline are publish, and afther that, you ignore just the part you want, because... That's my question now - because why?

 

Short answer: Hanlon's Razor. If you want a definitive answer, you'll probably have to address your question to the EC Reviewer.

 

What will you do, if an owner will delete your log, because you didn't attach the piture of you?

 

Link for reference:

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=request

 

Option 16 in the pulldown menu sounds appropriate.

 

Some time ago one of my EC was published, and after few months was archived, because it wasn't right with the guideline. But was published, and existed few months. At the same time few other was archived by the same reason.

 

The Note on your Listing was not particularly revealing (in spite a very poor google translate), so if you aren't going to share further details, I guess we won't get the benefit of your wisdom and experience. I looked around a few miles from your Listing and didn't see any others Archived by a Reviewer (EC or otherwise), so you'd have to provide some examples if you'd like to discuss those. If you want to get it off your chest, that's fine too.

 

I did't find any official information, that photos and permissions are main rules prior to other. I can't see any logical explanation, why a picture of myself can I just ignore, but when I will ignore question about something not related to geology it's something wrong.

 

The two examples that firennice provided were examples of Non-Grandfathered issues. They are similar to the ban on ALR's on more traditional Listing pages (Virtuals excluded of course). The EC Guidelines are written for an audience that is developing EC's, not logging them. While the history of the Guidelines can be an interesting topic, it's largely irrelevant in terms of current submissions. Logging Tasks, in terms of a Finder, are briefly discussed in the general Guidelines.

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I think is nothing wrong kindly describe in email to CO, that some questions are not right with guideline, so I ignore them.

Are you not answering because you can't answer them, or just because you insist on upholding the guidelines?

 

Because I insist on uphilding guidelines. Guidelines for EC were changed by GSA for some reason, and the reason, as I can suspect, is the increasing number of simple virtuals instead geological lesson.

 

If you are honestly interested in upholding the guidelines, show some courage and post a Needs Archived instead of trying to get the find without doing the tasks.

 

If you just try to find it without doing the work, you are not really any different than anybody else who tries to log an Earthcache without completing the tasks.

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The Note on your Listing was not particularly revealing (in spite a very poor google translate), so if you aren't going to share further details, I guess we won't get the benefit of your wisdom and experience. I looked around a few miles from your Listing and didn't see any others Archived by a Reviewer (EC or otherwise), so you'd have to provide some examples if you'd like to discuss those. If you want to get it off your chest, that's fine too.

 

 

This EC was placed inside a geological museum. There was another EC placed by someone other in second geological museum in this city. 3rd cache was a hidden physical container filled by small fossils. I think it doesn't matter for this thread, it's just for your knowledge.

 

Anyway, it's still strange for me, why do you just ignore question about picture and permission to log, and see something wrong in ignoring questions not related to geology, or based on internet research. There is a text from EC guidelines:

"Questions that only serve to prove that someone visited the site but do not relate to the site's geology are not permitted. All requests for photographs must be optional."

I can't see there any text like "you can ignore sending photos". You don't send them, only because there is an information that an owner can't ask you about them. Exactly the same with not-geological questions only to proove your visit. This is pretty clear for me. If I miss something let me know.

There is another text: "Visitors will use the information from the cache page along with their on-site observations to perform some type of analysis."

So you should answer to questions only reading the EC listing and visiting the site. In "EC Logging Rquirements" is another interesting text:

"Asking geocachers to complete internet research is also not a valid logging task, as it does not relate to what visitors will experience at the site.

As I remember, these rules were implemented at least on the beginning of 2013, so there is no point talking about "grandfathering" EC published after 2012.

 

Never mind, I think your point of view is on the other side than mine. So all I can say now is thank to all for your opinions, suggestions and examples. I will try my way, and will share with you my experience.

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Just to quickly answer your question , the photo issue is well documented in the Guidelines, therefore I'm on pretty firm footing ignoring those requirements when I see them ( not very often). Logging Tasks of questionable merit are in a slightly gray area. Presumably the questions have been vetted by a Reviewer. I can disagree with the questions, but since they have passed a Review, I should fulfill the requirement or take my case to the Reviewer or CO.

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"Asking geocachers to complete internet research is also not a valid logging task, as it does not relate to what visitors will experience at the site.
Huh... Maybe I should mention this on my EC listing. I've gotten a number of responses from people who did additional research, rather than relying on the information in the description and the information found on-site.
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3rd cache was a hidden physical container filled by small fossils.

 

Yea thats one that is pretty against the guidelines. You do not leave anything at an Earthcache site. I am pretty sure an EarthCache reviewer would archive it.

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The Note on your Listing was not particularly revealing (in spite a very poor google translate), so if you aren't going to share further details, I guess we won't get the benefit of your wisdom and experience. I looked around a few miles from your Listing and didn't see any others Archived by a Reviewer (EC or otherwise), so you'd have to provide some examples if you'd like to discuss those. If you want to get it off your chest, that's fine too.

 

 

This EC was placed inside a geological museum. There was another EC placed by someone other in second geological museum in this city. 3rd cache was a hidden physical container filled by small fossils. I think it doesn't matter for this thread, it's just for your knowledge.

 

Anyway, it's still strange for me, why do you just ignore question about picture and permission to log, and see something wrong in ignoring questions not related to geology, or based on internet research. There is a text from EC guidelines:

"Questions that only serve to prove that someone visited the site but do not relate to the site's geology are not permitted. All requests for photographs must be optional."

I can't see there any text like "you can ignore sending photos". You don't send them, only because there is an information that an owner can't ask you about them. Exactly the same with not-geological questions only to proove your visit. This is pretty clear for me. If I miss something let me know.

There is another text: "Visitors will use the information from the cache page along with their on-site observations to perform some type of analysis."

So you should answer to questions only reading the EC listing and visiting the site. In "EC Logging Rquirements" is another interesting text:

"Asking geocachers to complete internet research is also not a valid logging task, as it does not relate to what visitors will experience at the site.

As I remember, these rules were implemented at least on the beginning of 2013, so there is no point talking about "grandfathering" EC published after 2012.

 

Never mind, I think your point of view is on the other side than mine. So all I can say now is thank to all for your opinions, suggestions and examples. I will try my way, and will share with you my experience.

 

In your selective reading of the guidelines you have failed to grasp that photography requirements were very expressly disallowed and not grandfathered.

 

Other tasks are not treated the same way. If you ignore tasks that have been approved by a reviewer and try to log the Earthcache, you're just another fake Earthcache logger like all the others.

 

If you feel that a task is inappropriate and you don't want to do it, show some conviction and hit Needs Archived.

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I can disagree with the questions, but since they have passed a Review, I should fulfill the requirement or take my case to the Reviewer or CO.

But I just gave few examples of published EC's, what are not right with the guideline. About 2 weeks ago (!) an EC was published, where an owner ask about his permissin to log a find. And another question - how do you know, that the listing wasn't changed after publication?

 

Funny thing. Few days ago one cacher sent answers to my EC. They were mostly wrong, because he jus didn't read whole listing, where was all eplained. He tried answer using internet research, what was pointless. I told him, that he should read carrefoully read the listing and he will find there all answers. He sent me back corrected answers, but only one was right (maybe because there was only 2 options?), and other were still wrong, and looked like he still did internet resarch. I give up...

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"Asking geocachers to complete internet research is also not a valid logging task, as it does not relate to what visitors will experience at the site.
Huh... Maybe I should mention this on my EC listing. I've gotten a number of responses from people who did additional research, rather than relying on the information in the description and the information found on-site.

 

Yes, that's a good idea, I have to do this in mu EC's (after small review of older EC's). I think, that's much better than maintenance or archive logs, because sometimes people find that aggresive.

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never mind.

 

Just give up...

Edited by toczygroszek
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