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Geocache In A Mall?


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Geocaches can be located inside of a non-commercial building, such as a public library or non-profit museum. BUT, adequate GPS usage must be demonstrated, which in most cases will mean there will also be a stage located outdoors.

 

I think that most reviewers would regard the common indoor area of a shopping mall to be inside of a commercial building. Therefore, the idea fails the "non-commercial" part of the above test.

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Geocaches can be located inside of a non-commercial building, such as a public library or non-profit museum. BUT, adequate GPS usage must be demonstrated, which in most cases will mean there will also be a stage located outdoors.

 

I think that most reviewers would regard the common indoor area of a shopping mall to be inside of a commercial building. Therefore, the idea fails the "non-commercial" part of the above test.

The OP appears to be in California where many malls are open air, so the common area might not be inside a commercial building. Permission would still be required and might be difficult to get. Also in a well maintained mall the cache would likely be muggled by an efficient maintenance crew. Better locations can be found.

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Geocaches can be located inside of a non-commercial building, such as a public library or non-profit museum. BUT, adequate GPS usage must be demonstrated, which in most cases will mean there will also be a stage located outdoors.

 

I think that most reviewers would regard the common indoor area of a shopping mall to be inside of a commercial building. Therefore, the idea fails the "non-commercial" part of the above test.

The OP appears to be in California where many malls are open air, so the common area might not be inside a commercial building. Permission would still be required and might be difficult to get. Also in a well maintained mall the cache would likely be muggled by an efficient maintenance crew. Better locations can be found.

True. Just looking at the OP's pattern of Finds, it looks like they might be talking/considering Visalia Mall, which is enclosed. I would go with Keystone's assessment in this case. Fails on both the GPS usage and Commercial aspects. Visalia has much nicer places to cache, and a relatively short drive to some nearby National Forest areas.

Edited by Touchstone
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^-- That!

 

ETA: Although, in the case of an open common area, if it has permission and it's done like a library or museum cache, it could be quite obviously placed in a safe location, not inconspicuously, even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps? Certainly wouldn't try to hide one under a bench in a common area, no matter how permitted it is :P

Edited by thebruce0
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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

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Could I hide a Geocache in a public mall. Not in a store or anything. I was just thinking like in the food court or under one of the benches or at one of the charging stations or on one of the payphones? Or would it be "against the rules"?

 

Just a thought. Is it a special location?

 

If the only reason for bring people to a location is a cache, find a better spot :ph34r:

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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)
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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)

You could always post an NA log to have the local Reviewer take a look at it again. Could be post publication like you say, or just an oops.

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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)

You could always post an NA log to have the local Reviewer take a look at it again. Could be post publication like you say, or just an oops.

 

Is that cache causing problems? If not, why make a fuzz about it?

We've done several caches where we asked for the container, each and everyone a special container with LOTS of great swag (DVDs, books,...) and TBs. At least these caches are protected from muggles.

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Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)

You could always post an NA log to have the local Reviewer take a look at it again. Could be post publication like you say, or just an oops.

I was going to say, I've been to a couple of in-building caches where interaction was needed. Most were as described, but maybe someone on staff in time felt it better to have it behind the desk or something. Who knows. Probably few and far between were actually published by reviewers knowingly with required interaction to get at the cache.

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Could I hide a Geocache in a public mall. Not in a store or anything. I was just thinking like in the food court or under one of the benches or at one of the charging stations or on one of the payphones? Or would it be "against the rules"?

Can I ask: why would you want to bring me to a mall? Geocaches should bring you some place interesting or scenic or along a great hike or walk. Seems like these days only about 30% of the caches being hid meet this description.

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Could I hide a Geocache in a public mall. Not in a store or anything. I was just thinking like in the food court or under one of the benches or at one of the charging stations or on one of the payphones? Or would it be "against the rules"?

Can I ask: why would you want to bring me to a mall? Geocaches should bring you some place interesting or scenic or along a great hike or walk. Seems like these days only about 30% of the caches being hid meet this description.

 

30%? You must have some great caches in your area. Near me, it's more like 10%. :(

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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)

You could always post an NA log to have the local Reviewer take a look at it again. Could be post publication like you say, or just an oops.

 

Is that cache causing problems? If not, why make a fuzz about it?

We've done several caches where we asked for the container, each and everyone a special container with LOTS of great swag (DVDs, books,...) and TBs. At least these caches are protected from muggles.

 

(oops accidentally posted before I wrote anything)

 

I'm not making a fuss and I'm not posting any NA on it. I'm just wondering.

Edited by NanCycle
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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)

You could always post an NA log to have the local Reviewer take a look at it again. Could be post publication like you say, or just an oops.

 

Is that cache causing problems? If not, why make a fuzz about it?

We've done several caches where we asked for the container, each and everyone a special container with LOTS of great swag (DVDs, books,...) and TBs. At least these caches are protected from muggles.

 

(oops accidentally posted before I wrote anything)

 

I'm not making a fuss and I'm not posting any NA on it. I'm just wondering.

By definition, bringing examples like that to the Forum IS making a fuss.

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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)

You could always post an NA log to have the local Reviewer take a look at it again. Could be post publication like you say, or just an oops.

 

Is that cache causing problems? If not, why make a fuzz about it?

We've done several caches where we asked for the container, each and everyone a special container with LOTS of great swag (DVDs, books,...) and TBs. At least these caches are protected from muggles.

 

(oops accidentally posted before I wrote anything)

 

I'm not making a fuss and I'm not posting any NA on it. I'm just wondering.

By definition, bringing examples like that to the Forum IS making a fuss.

 

In this case I would say go with the 'no precedent', consider that it is what it is, and leave it alone. It is certainly not hurting anything.

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... even near a clerk of some kind so it's always visible; like at a help or service desk perhaps?

Be mindful of the requirement that no interaction with staff is needed in order to find the cache (the same is true at a museum or library).

 

In plain view of information kiosk at park or reference desk at library: OK

 

Asking the clerk to hand you the cache container that's kept behind the desk: not OK.

 

I wonder how this got approved; maybe it was added after publication, but I don't think so. It is in a public library and kept in a desk drawer.

 

seek out his secretary and ask for the geocache or letterbox. He or she will gladly turn over that which you are looking for. (If they don't know what you are talking about, ask for Diann or Catherine and state your request to them.)

You could always post an NA log to have the local Reviewer take a look at it again. Could be post publication like you say, or just an oops.

 

Is that cache causing problems? If not, why make a fuzz about it?

We've done several caches where we asked for the container, each and everyone a special container with LOTS of great swag (DVDs, books,...) and TBs. At least these caches are protected from muggles.

 

(oops accidentally posted before I wrote anything)

 

I'm not making a fuss and I'm not posting any NA on it. I'm just wondering.

By definition, bringing examples like that to the Forum IS making a fuss.

 

By your definition maybe, but I don't think that just mentioning something is fussing. But then, I have been accused of complaining when my intention was just stating facts. e. g. "This cache was found out in the open" was construed as "I didn't like this cache because it wasn't hidden as well as I thought it should be."

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It's more that there are some out there. Whether they fit the guidelines when hidden is part of the question.

Talk to the person behind the information counter booth and tell them you are a geocacher and would like to see the geocache. Please be sure there are no muggles around when you ask for the geocache or when you return it.

Probably the only way to hide a good cache at this location.

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Public mall? No such thing. Malls are private property where you are allowed to trespass to shop. Here in Minnesota there are a few Malls where geocache is prohibited. Parking lot included.

Parking lot is private property.

Technical college is also banned.

You might think it is public. But only a little bit. If you are not a student or employee you are a trespasser.

As a part time job I work at a local Tech College. A geocache popped up on my radar.

I got hold of the reviewer and let him know

Of the no trespassing sign on the property.

Any body caught nosing around would have

Gotten a nasty surprise if they came looking. Point being the reviewers should all know the rules, so they are the ones

To check with as well as ask permission

Before making a hide.

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Public mall? No such thing. Malls are private property where you are allowed to trespass to shop. Here in Minnesota there are a few Malls where geocache is prohibited. Parking lot included.

Parking lot is private property.

Technical college is also banned.

You might think it is public. But only a little bit. If you are not a student or employee you are a trespasser.

As a part time job I work at a local Tech College. A geocache popped up on my radar.

I got hold of the reviewer and let him know

Of the no trespassing sign on the property.

Any body caught nosing around would have

Gotten a nasty surprise if they came looking. Point being the reviewers should all know the rules, so they are the ones

To check with as well as ask permission

Before making a hide.

 

Yep, Burnsville Center caught on to the geocaches in their lots and had them all removed and permanently banned.

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allowed to trespass
Nice oxymoron...

Really. Why would that be. The reality of all stores is that trespass allowed to shop. You can be aressted and charged for trespass if you engage in activities not associated with shopping. I know of at least one mall with a sign posted in the lot says exactly that. Look around you just might find one yourself. They are only required to post one if they do post any.

But even without that sign they still can

Level the trespass charge. Sometimes it sticks in court sometimes it gets tossed.

It depends on the situation.

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allowed to trespass
Nice oxymoron...

Really. Why would that be. The reality of all stores is that trespass allowed to shop. You can be aressted and charged for trespass if you engage in activities not associated with shopping. I know of at least one mall with a sign posted in the lot says exactly that. Look around you just might find one yourself. They are only required to post one if they do post any.

But even without that sign they still can

Level the trespass charge. Sometimes it sticks in court sometimes it gets tossed.

It depends on the situation.

I'm pretty sure the oxymoron comment was meant to be humorous, because "trespass" generally means entering a property without the owner's permission, so if permission is provided then it's not really 'trespassing'. Was 'allowed to trespass' the exact wording of the sign?

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I'm pretty sure the oxymoron comment was meant to be humorous, because "trespass" generally means entering a property without the owner's permission, so if permission is provided then it's not really 'trespassing'.
Exactly. If you're allowed to be there, then it isn't trespassing.

 

If you're trespassing, then it's because you aren't allowed to be there.

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Actually wrong. Trespass is defined as entering upon property not your own.

Permission can be given to trespass or it can be denied.such as a store or mall.

Upon entering said store or mall and being told to leave you are now an ileagle trespasser. Stores and Malls have an implied permission to trespass.

Until told otherwise. Say you are in a public park and cop says to leave.

Same thing, even though it is public property you are now an ileagle trespasser.

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Actually wrong. Trespass is defined as entering upon property not your own.

Permission can be given to trespass or it can be denied.such as a store or mall.

Upon entering said store or mall and being told to leave you are now an ileagle trespasser. Stores and Malls have an implied permission to trespass.

Until told otherwise. Say you are in a public park and cop says to leave.

Same thing, even though it is public property you are now an ileagle trespasser.

 

You can be given permission to enter but not to trespass because if you have permission is isn't trespassing.

 

From Black's Law Dictionary:

"In the strictest sense, an entry on another’s ground, without a lawful authority, and doing some damage, however inconsiderable, to his real property."

 

From Merriam-Webster:

"the crime of going on someone's land without permission"

 

From Dictionary.com:

"an unlawful act causing injury to the person, property, or rights of another, committed with force or violence, actual or implied. "

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OK then unlawful.

Point is trespass can be allowed or it can be denied. Trespass is not a crime unless it is denied and you trespass anyway.

Far too many people assume that Malls and parking lots are public property. They are not. Just because the public congregates in a location for something does not infer permission to do whatever. That was the beginning of this thread. Can somebody hide

A geocache in a Mall. The answer would be no. Why? Our rules prohibit hidding a geocache in a business is the answer.

The Mall itself is a business.

The Mall of America prohibits geocache anywhere on its property. Northtown Mall in

Blaine, MN also prohibits geocache.

The parking lots are wide open. Can I have a meeting of a boyscout troop in the parking lot? Only if I get permission to do so. But it is a public Commons area! Some would say. Sorry that has been tried in court and lost. Private property is just that, private. You would think differently if you where a property owner or manager.

I have personally placed someone under arrest for unlawful trespass.

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Point is trespass can be allowed or it can be denied. Trespass is not a crime unless it is denied and you trespass anyway.

You keep saying this, but none of us seem to be able to find any documentation of such a phenomenon as "legal trespass". Every definition I can find defines the concept of trespass as being inherently unlawful. Someone walking through a mall and not doing anything wrong is simply on the property with permission, not trespassing.

 

Trespass to land is a common law tort or crime that is committed when an individual or the object of an individual intentionally (or, in Australia, negligently) enters the land of another without a lawful excuse.
Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person's property without permission.
n. entering another person's property without permission of the owner or his/her agent and without lawful authority
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Semantics, semantics. His point is accurate; whether or not the correct wording is being used is nit-picking.

Okay, getting back to the original question:

Could I hide a Geocache in a public mall.

Could you? Possibly, but you've have to get permission and deal with the commercial guideline issues that would likely arise (it most likely isn't a truly "public" mall). Now, whether such a cache would even be a good idea is a whole other story. I agree with previous posters that it probably wouldn't last long, either due to cleaners or muggles (you do realize misguided youth hang out in malls, right?). Unless it brought me to some kind of noteworthy spot, I just don't see it as being an interesting enough location to bring people to.

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I've found plenty of LPC's in the parking lots of shopping centers and haven't worried too much about getting arrested for trespassing. In only a few cases did I search for a cache without also shopping there. I don't think getting arrested for finding a cache in a parking lot is a big worry in the USA, especially if cachers simply leave when asked by security. Certainly it's possible that it would happen, but I just think it's unlikely.

 

Stating the 'allowed to trespass' as follows would better match the definition of the terms:

Point is trespass entry onto private property can be allowed or it can be denied. Trespass Entry onto private property is not a crime unless it is denied and you trespass anyway.

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Here is a good example. Trespass prohibited on agricultural land. The land does not need to be posted to prohibit trespass.

Trespass on the same land is allowed if given permission, this is our trespass law here.

For non agricultural land such as a large parcel of woods that are not posted. Trespass allowed until or unless verbally told to leave.

This is also our law here. Read the signs om posted land you will see them say No Trespassing or No Trespassing without permission.

Or Trespassing with permission only. I have found all of these. I have also posted some of these.

At the Tech College that I work at. The sign says No Trespassing or unauthorized activities. This is public property,

Only Students and employees or those who wish to register are allowed to trespass. Geocache is not authorized.

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Here is a good example. Trespass prohibited on agricultural land. The land does not need to be posted to prohibit trespass.

Trespass on the same land is allowed if given permission, this is our trespass law here.

For non agricultural land such as a large parcel of woods that are not posted. Trespass allowed until or unless verbally told to leave.

This is also our law here.

 

Here are your laws:

609.605 TRESPASS.

609.6055 TRESPASS ON CRITICAL PUBLIC SERVICE FACILITY; UTILITY; OR PIPELINE.

 

I'm not going to belabor the semantics. It's apparent that the message isn't getting across. The manufacturers of signs that say 'No Trespassing without Permission' should hire proofreaders.

Edited by noncentric
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Sorry folks. I didn't mean to start a prolonged debate over the difference between "trespass" and "entry". I thought I was just pointing out an obvious oxymoron. At the time, the idea that the discussion would follow the course that it has was... inconceivable.

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Sorry folks. I didn't mean to start a prolonged debate over the difference between "trespass" and "entry". I thought I was just pointing out an obvious oxymoron. At the time, the idea that the discussion would follow the course that it has was... inconceivable.

 

You do you, Groundspeak Forums. :laughing:

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Sorry folks. I didn't mean to start a prolonged debate over the difference between "trespass" and "entry". I thought I was just pointing out an obvious oxymoron. At the time, the idea that the discussion would follow the course that it has was... inconceivable.

 

You do you, Groundspeak Forums. :laughing:

 

How do you do you?

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Sorry folks. I didn't mean to start a prolonged debate over the difference between "trespass" and "entry". I thought I was just pointing out an obvious oxymoron. At the time, the idea that the discussion would follow the course that it has was... inconceivable.

 

You do you, Groundspeak Forums. :laughing:

Well this has been a fun run here. But the main thing about it is a Mall public or private. Far too many people misunderstand

the law on private property. It is thought by many that if the public is allowed to be upon the property then it is public.

This thought gets many people into a lot of trouble. I own the land that the road is on in front of my home.

But the township owns a 66 foot wide easement for that road. But I still maintain ownership of the land the road is on.

The portion of that 66 feet that is the road surface is public trespassable But the portion of that easement that is not road surface is not.

Why is it different here as opposed to county easement law or State easement law? That is how it is written. I can prohibit snowmobile and ATV travel

in the ditch. Why Township easement rules as spelled out by Minnesota law. Why Am I so adamant about private property?

I have been forced to arrest some even at the end of a shotgun for unlawful trespass on land that I was a manager of. They where charged with criminal trespass.

Charges stuck and they paid the price. Did I get into trouble for that arrest? NO! I was legal. Private property needs permission,read Groundspeak rules. But who really seeks that in a parking lot.

Until all heck breaks loose when the cops come. I have been jumped by the cops in a parking lot while I was seeking a geocache.

Generally we here do not find out about a Mall banning Geocache until trying to hide one. Our reviewers know which ones prohibit it.

Can you hide in a building? Yes, just not a business building. A Mall is a business building.

In general we all need to be more informed of the trespass laws where we live. They are not all the same throughout the country.

And please do not cite tort law. That does not cut it due to differences in the law in your local. Common law also wont cut it. Legislative and Judicial is what makes the grade.

This is what the courts go by. I can walk in a stream and fish here. Land owner can do nothing about it here. But go to Colorado and do that and you get a deer rifle in your face and tossed into jail.

Check your laws.

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