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It has obviously been proven that reviewers can expand their approval powers for CITO events so why not obvious events tied to other events.

No, it hasn't been "obviously proven." Several posts, including one of mine, pointed out that the guidelines given to the reviewers to follow are different for CITO Events and regular Event Caches. "Two different rules" is a giant leap from "reviewers expanding their approval powers."

 

Oh, and don't make me flex my moderator muscles. Thanks for playing nicely.

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It has obviously been proven that reviewers can expand their approval powers for CITO events so why not obvious events tied to other events.

 

These so called "approval powers", are due to direct guidance from Groundspeak. I think it's a bit misguided to direct your assertions upon Volunteers.

 

One obvious reason for a more expansive view of CITO's vs. Events is just the practicality and/or mechanics of putting on a CITO concurrently with a Park sponsored volunteer effort. The ones that I've hosted have not had any particular conflict like you're describing, but I know that the Rangers that are in charge of the work are either comp'd time off, or paid overtime. I think Groundspeak found it impractical to expect Parks to pay for staff overtime for just a handful of geocachers willing to pick up some trash, so thought some flexibility was in order to accommodate the reality of the situation.

 

I don't believe the difference is so much out of convenience, but more out of necessity if CITO brand was going to continue to flourish and harbor some goodwill with the land managers of the open spaces and parks where we play.

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In my scenario, it is a Township sponsored family fitness day. I would bet that this kind of event would be so far from crossing any geocachers "line" that it wouldn't be funny.

 

The worthiness of the cause isn't the point.

 

I assure you that there are many, many geocachers who could make impassioned pleas for having official events paired up with their favourite causes and organizations. Many of us are community-minded people who do good work in all sorts of areas.

 

If your event was published, it would absolutely cross people's "line," if only because it isn't fair to draw an arbitrary line that deems your cause worthy and someone else's cause unworthy. The way to make it truly fair is to make it a hard no for all of these causes.

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Got it. Like I said, I will know better next year and will not be hosting a geocaching 101 event. Not knowing the minutia of these rules is becoming increasingly frustrating.

I say this without meaning to be snarky, but if you don't know or understand the rules maybe holding a Geocahing 101 event isn't for you.

 

Can I get your response to those who suggested getting a booth? If your intentions are genuine that is clearly the better solution.

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reviewers can expand their approval powers for CITO events

 

CITO guideline expressly states that it may be possible to incorporate a Geocaching.com published CITO event into an existing clean up. "Other organizations sponsor similar activities. These external events could be adapted or developed to meet our cache submission guidelines."

 

Conversely, Event guideline expressly states that a Geocaching.com Meet and Greet cannot be created within or as part of an existing event. "If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community or it will happen without a Geocaching.com listing, it is likely not an Event Cache."

 

There is a lot of minutia to Geocaching.com's listing guidelines, and mostly people skim 'em (if they read 'em at all). And the stuff that runs counter to whatever they're trying to do they read and interpret in a light most favorable to their own intentions.

 

Live and learn...

Thanks for offering to teach about geocaching

Edited by Isonzo Karst
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In my scenario, it is a Township sponsored family fitness day. I would bet that this kind of event would be so far from crossing any geocachers "line" that it wouldn't be funny.

 

The worthiness of the cause isn't the point.

 

I assure you that there are many, many geocachers who could make impassioned pleas for having official events paired up with their favourite causes and organizations. Many of us are community-minded people who do good work in all sorts of areas.

 

If your event was published, it would absolutely cross people's "line," if only because it isn't fair to draw an arbitrary line that deems your cause worthy and someone else's cause unworthy. The way to make it truly fair is to make it a hard no for all of these causes.

 

I get the slippery slope mentality. My opinion (and yes I know that my opinion obviously gets trumped by the rules) is that CITOs getting dispensation allowing them to be corporately sponsored which is crossing much further over the line than a township sponsored family fitness day. That just doesn't makes much sense to me. Now please don't quote the rules for the 100th time. I get them. I really do. Like I said, this is just my opinion.

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It has obviously been proven that reviewers can expand their approval powers for CITO events so why not obvious events tied to other events.

 

I don't believe the difference is so much out of convenience, but more out of necessity if CITO brand was going to continue to flourish and harbor some goodwill with the land managers of the open spaces and parks where we play.

 

As has been mentioned several times regarding 101 events, attaching CITO to existing events is a convenience but not required. There is nothing stopping CITO events from being organized on their own outside of geocaching or in geocaching but separate from existing events.

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Got it. Like I said, I will know better next year and will not be hosting a geocaching 101 event. Not knowing the minutia of these rules is becoming increasingly frustrating.

I say this without meaning to be snarky, but if you don't know or understand the rules maybe holding a Geocahing 101 event isn't for you.

 

Can I get your response to those who suggested getting a booth? If your intentions are genuine that is clearly the better solution.

 

How is that not supposed to be snarky? It's a geocaching 101 event. The rules are way to confusing for anyone to cover cache placement in any level of detail.

 

Not sure what the booth question was but that has always been the plan. A booth for information and tours of the park with experienced geocachers.

 

The point of the GC listed event was to:

 

Incentivize experienced geocachers to come out and share their wisdom.

Have an event for new geocachers who have just started geocaching.

Show an example to interested muggles just like we will be showing the ammo cans, bison tubes, and puzzle caches.

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In my scenario, it is a Township sponsored family fitness day. I would bet that this kind of event would be so far from crossing any geocachers "line" that it wouldn't be funny.

 

The worthiness of the cause isn't the point.

 

I assure you that there are many, many geocachers who could make impassioned pleas for having official events paired up with their favourite causes and organizations. Many of us are community-minded people who do good work in all sorts of areas.

 

If your event was published, it would absolutely cross people's "line," if only because it isn't fair to draw an arbitrary line that deems your cause worthy and someone else's cause unworthy. The way to make it truly fair is to make it a hard no for all of these causes.

 

I get the slippery slope mentality. My opinion (and yes I know that my opinion obviously gets trumped by the rules) is that CITOs getting dispensation allowing them to be corporately sponsored which is crossing much further over the line than a township sponsored family fitness day. That just doesn't makes much sense to me. Now please don't quote the rules for the 100th time. I get them. I really do. Like I said, this is just my opinion.

 

It has already been established in this thread that event caches are permitted to have sponsors as well. That's an entirely separate issue.

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It has obviously been proven that reviewers can expand their approval powers for CITO events so why not obvious events tied to other events.

 

In my scenario, it is a Township sponsored family fitness day. I would bet that this kind of event would be so far from crossing any geocachers "line" that it wouldn't be funny. (Still not fishing for my cache to get listed. That boat has obviously sailed.)

 

We have drinking events, dangerous events, etc.

 

On a separate note, I don't think it fair to insinuate that people are whining, farming for smileys, or just plain dumb because they don't understand a rule and want to have a discussion about it. Please take off your fake forum muscles.

 

The reason that CITO events may be treated differently from other events is that reviewers may have been specifically been told by Groundspeak that CITO events may be treated as an exception.

 

What they haven't been told is that they can make a subjective decision between "good" events and "bad events".

 

Personally, I'd rather attend a geocaching event that was associated with a drinking event than one associated with a "fitness" day. I think it I would less likely to encounter attendees that were trying to sell me something if it were associated with a drinking event than a fitness event. I'm actually kind of tired of the constant bombardment of commercial solicitations: "join our fitness club", "buy this supplement to lose weight", "buy this exercise video so that you can have buns of steel", or "buy this piece of exercise equipment so that you can be perfect like our paid spokesmodel", all in the name of "fitness".

 

Essentially, you're asking that reviewers make a subjective decision for whether or not a non-geocaching related agenda is "good" or "bad". Imagine all the appeals that GS would have to arbitrator for Event cache submissions associated with an agenda that the reviewer did not think was good enough.

 

 

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It has obviously been proven that reviewers can expand their approval powers for CITO events so why not obvious events tied to other events.

 

I don't believe the difference is so much out of convenience, but more out of necessity if CITO brand was going to continue to flourish and harbor some goodwill with the land managers of the open spaces and parks where we play.

 

As has been mentioned several times regarding 101 events, attaching CITO to existing events is a convenience but not required. There is nothing stopping CITO events from being organized on their own outside of geocaching or in geocaching but separate from existing events.

Actually there is. I would not be allowed to host a CITO in three of the National Parks that I organized because of regulations limiting the group size. So yes, NPS involvement was and still is required under those circumstances.

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It has obviously been proven that reviewers can expand their approval powers for CITO events so why not obvious events tied to other events.

 

I don't believe the difference is so much out of convenience, but more out of necessity if CITO brand was going to continue to flourish and harbor some goodwill with the land managers of the open spaces and parks where we play.

 

As has been mentioned several times regarding 101 events, attaching CITO to existing events is a convenience but not required. There is nothing stopping CITO events from being organized on their own outside of geocaching or in geocaching but separate from existing events.

 

I think you're viewing this issue backwards. There are plenty of CITO event that are independent of any other organized activity. In addition to those, the guidelines were modified to allow the reviewers to publish CITO events in conjunction with other organized activities at the community's request. By participating in these larger events we can improve relationships with land managers. They provide an opportunity for us to give back by helping keep our playing field clean and well maintained.

 

Also it's not an issue of reviewers 'expanding their approval powers'. It's an issue of the guideline being worded differently. Reviewers simply ensure that a listing meets the guidelines.

Edited by wimseyguy
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The point of the GC listed event was to:

 

Incentivize experienced geocachers to come out and share their wisdom.

Have an event for new geocachers who have just started geocaching.

Show an example to interested muggles just like we will be showing the ammo cans, bison tubes, and puzzle caches.

Our county parks department sponsors geocaching classes, where experienced geocachers lead small groups of student geocachers. I don't think we've ever had a problem getting experienced geocachers to volunteer. Besides, if you create an event, then you'll have to figure out how to separate the experienced geocachers who want to share their wisdom from all the geocachers (experienced and otherwise) who just want to socialize.

 

Except for the icon for an event cache, you DO have an event for new geocachers who have just started geocaching. And new geocachers don't really worry about collecting icons yet. And once they do start worrying about collecting icons, it really isn't that hard to get an event cache icon.

 

And when I've helped introduce new geocachers to the obsession activity, I've shown them an assortment of containers, and I've mentioned other cache types (mainly multi, puzzle, and event caches, because all the others are quite rare), but I've only taken them to find traditional caches. That's part of my KISS approach, trying not to overwhelm newbies with all the details and complexities of the full game.

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I can think of many, many CITO Events that are done in partnership with a land management agency (like a park district) or a conservation group (like "Citizens for a Clean River"). But I cannot think of a corporate-sponsored CITO Event (like "Coca-Cola Cleanup Day").

 

CITO Events are reviewed under different written guidelines than regular Geocaching Events, so the entire line of reasoning is a red herring in any case.

 

Yes there is a Sterling Park Cleanup which goes on every year and many of those years geocachers have been able to have the CITO in partnership with the Sterling Nature Center. GC6C49H is one that happened this year. This wasn't a corporate event it was a cleanup and is always around Earth day. I also cannot think think of any corporate-sponsored CITO event. I have heard of trackables but never CITO events or any event actually.

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Conversely, Event guideline expressly states that a Geocaching.com Meet and Greet cannot be created within or as part of an existing event. "If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community or it will happen without a Geocaching.com listing, it is likely not an Event Cache."

 

If geocachers have an event at the same time as another event, that IS allowed. But you cannot directly promote the existing event and must have a group of geocachers get together. This guideline seems complicated, been to an event that happened because a college does an annual event and two of the participants were European geocachers that wanted to have an event but they actually made sure it worked out as an event. What the cacher should do is find another way to host a geocaching event. As others stated a "101" is probably not appropriate for geocachers who mainly want to socialize. IF you're trying to have an event during another event, find out what is allowed and what isn't allowed.

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