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Kids Finding Parent Caches


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Greetings all...

 

Looking for a little input here.

 

My wife and I started caching in 2011 when my daughter was about 1. She went with us as we learned the ups and downs of caching. She even went on a 45 cache spree one day for my birthday present. But as alot of parent know, kids take over life. We just didnt have time to cache because our time was consumed with work and our little girl.

 

Fast Forward 5 years.... NOW.. our daughter is almost 6. we have decided to reintroduce caching into our life. We try for 1 a day, but will do more if she asks for more. I have placed some new caches in the town we now call home. My daughter has no idea I placed them, where they are, or anything. When we cache... she points the arrow towards the cache or "Prize" as she calls it.. and goes.

 

The question I have is this... I would never log a find for a cache I own, I placed it for the enjoyment of others and for the love of the game. As I take her to caches... get her in the "area" and help her follow the arrow. Do you think it is acceptable for a parent to let their child get a smiley for a cache their parent own if they know about or dont know about the cache. My daughter loves the LPC's and the GR finds. Those are 6yr old bread and butter finds. She has helped before on more difficult caches, and LOVES ammo cans and bigger containers that have "Swappers".

 

enough babbling. Let me know your thoughts.

 

Signed,

Caching With Kid

-Big Papa and Momma Mel

Edited by BigPapa and MommaMel
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Assuming you've created a separate account for her, then by all means let her log it as a "Found It".

 

Yes. She has her own account and her own trackers. My thought process was that she will look back when she is a teen... young adult.. adult... and have memories. *Queue Cheesy music* "I did this with my mom ad dad." "We sent that out when I was a yr old" I know... kind of mushy :) But geocaching is a GREAT family event. Especially when played right.

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https://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

See section C of the terms and conditions:

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

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https://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

See section C of the terms and conditions:

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I would be willing to bet, that rule is broken by tens of thousands of people. Just like the rule about getting permission to hide a cache on properties.

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https://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

See section C of the terms and conditions:

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I would be willing to bet, that rule is broken by tens of thousands of people. Just like the rule about getting permission to hide a cache on properties.

 

Oh, I'm sure it is.

 

But it's a pretty definitive answer to the question at hand.

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https://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

See section C of the terms and conditions:

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I would be willing to bet, that rule is broken by tens of thousands of people. Just like the rule about getting permission to hide a cache on properties.

 

Oh, I'm sure it is.

 

But it's a pretty definitive answer to the question at hand.

Hhmmm, a well-known Lackey's child has had an account since infancy and I believe he is still under 13. Caches have been logged on that account for over a decade.

 

Perhaps the TOS is more about who actually logs into the site. Although, I'm sure there's something in the TOS about how a user (parent) shouldn't log into another user's (child) account.

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https://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

See section C of the terms and conditions:

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I would be willing to bet, that rule is broken by tens of thousands of people. Just like the rule about getting permission to hide a cache on properties.

 

Oh, I'm sure it is.

 

But it's a pretty definitive answer to the question at hand.

 

Well said.

 

I personally think that they should promote kids doing geocaching.

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https://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

 

See section C of the terms and conditions:

 

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I would be willing to bet, that rule is broken by tens of thousands of people. Just like the rule about getting permission to hide a cache on properties.

 

Oh, I'm sure it is.

 

But it's a pretty definitive answer to the question at hand.

 

Well said.

 

I personally think that they should promote kids doing geocaching.

 

I don't think the restriction in the TOS is meant to imply that children shouldn't geocache with their parents.

 

I believe there are laws that are meant to prevent children from using sites that collect/share personal information.

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Wow. I wasnt trying to break rules or anything. Just trying to have something productive and fun to do with my daughter. My daughter doesnt log in. I do all her logging for her. She has friend on there, but are people we know or have met, and they want to check her find progress. I often take pics with her and the cache for proof if ever a question.

 

I surely was not trying to spark any kind of debate or anything.

 

Sorry for the issue with the question

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Wow. I wasnt trying to break rules or anything. Just trying to have something productive and fun to do with my daughter. My daughter doesnt log in. I do all her logging for her. She has friend on there, but are people we know or have met, and they want to check her find progress. I often take pics with her and the cache for proof if ever a question.

 

I surely was not trying to spark any kind of debate or anything.

 

Sorry for the issue with the question

 

I cache with my grandson as well. He is 5 years old. One time he asked for my gps at the house and walked around the living room with it. He then lifted up a cardboard box and said "found it!" Proud Papaw moment :)

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I surely was not trying to spark any kind of debate or anything.

Read here long enough, and you'll see that EVERYTHING turns into a debate. :laughing:

 

The under-13 restriction is using the website. It's a COPPA thing. Many websites prohibit under-13s altogether rather than jump through legal hoops. I'm pretty sure even Facebook doesn't officially allow under-13s.

 

If you're doing the logging yourself, I see no issues.

Edited by TriciaG
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I don't think the restriction in the TOS is meant to imply that children shouldn't geocache with their parents.

 

 

Actually, it explicitly says exactly that. It states that children under 13 are not permitted to use their services at all... full stop. It then says that if you're between 13 and 18, then you can use their services, but only with the supervision of your parents. So apparently it's only ok to cache with your parents if you're 13 or older, and if you're under 13 you can't cache at all.

 

Then again, as many have argued in these forums, Geocaching.com is technically just a "listing" service, so it could be interpreted that using their "services" only means listing Geocaches, and is not a reference to finding.

 

If this rule really does refer to finding caches, then somebody should tell Groundspeak about it, because I constantly see them promoting kids under the age of 13 caching.

Edited by ZeppelinDT
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Wow. I wasnt trying to break rules or anything. Just trying to have something productive and fun to do with my daughter. My daughter doesnt log in. I do all her logging for her. She has friend on there, but are people we know or have met, and they want to check her find progress. I often take pics with her and the cache for proof if ever a question.

 

I surely was not trying to spark any kind of debate or anything.

 

Sorry for the issue with the question

 

You're fine on both issues. As someone's already posted that language is for legal CYA reasons only. You're not sending your kid onto the website to play in this sandbox, or find the target caches, all you're doing is letting them actually find the cache in the field. Which is also perfectly fine and a wonderful way for a parent to spend time outside with their kids. I really doubt they have any memory of where the cache was hidden that's helping them make finds today.

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I don't think the restriction in the TOS is meant to imply that children shouldn't geocache with their parents.

 

 

Actually, it explicitly says exactly that. It states that children under 13 are not permitted to use their services at all... full stop. It then says that if you're between 13 and 18, then you can use their services, but only with the supervision of your parents. So apparently it's only ok to cache with your parents if you're 13 or older, and if you're under 13 you can't cache at all.

 

Then again, as many have argued in these forums, Geocaching.com is technically just a "listing" service, so it could be interpreted that using their "services" only means listing Geocaches, and is not a reference to finding.

 

If this rule really does refer to finding caches, then somebody should tell Groundspeak about it, because I constantly see them promoting kids under the age of 13 caching.

 

The website is their services. They don't own geocaches.

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The website is their services. They don't own geocaches.

 

It also includes the app and any data provided through API services, which would mean that kids also cannot navigate to caches.

 

I guess you could argue that if the parents take them to the location without letting them touch the app and say "there's a cache around here somewhere", then that would be technically in compliance with the terms of service, but if you're going that route, then it seems like it would also be perfectly acceptable for kids to find their parents caches by having the parents create an account for the kids and just have the kids dictate the text of their "found it" logs to their parents while the parents are the ones actually typing them in (since technically in that case the kids would not be using the website).

Edited by ZeppelinDT
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Yes. She has her own account and her own trackers. My thought process was that she will look back when she is a teen... young adult.. adult... and have memories. *Queue Cheesy music* "I did this with my mom ad dad." "We sent that out when I was a yr old" I know... kind of mushy :) But geocaching is a GREAT family event. Especially when played right.

For me, I'd be thinking it would be even better if, when she had that nostalgic moment years later, she could then go find the cache and log it at that time and have a real connection to the cache instead of just a memory. She won't be able to do that if she already logged it back when she was a child caching with you. The real question for me is whether she should have an account to begin with if you're always hunting caches as a family. Is she writing her own logs? But since you've already made that decision, it's fine for her to find your caches. It's no different that friends finding each others caches.

 

I like that you're stressing they're caches she doesn't know anything about in advance and encourage you to continue thinking that way, but even that's not required. I don't do it, but lots of people will log a find on a cache when they were standing right there watching their friend hide it. No big deal.

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It also includes the app and any data provided through API services, which would mean that kids also cannot navigate to caches.

 

There are still cachers who do not use apps to navigate and the cache owner has the waypoints available anyway, no need to make use of APIs etc.

 

No company in the world can ensure that children cannot go out with their parents and go search these caches.

 

I guess you could argue that if the parents take them to the location without letting them touch the app and say "there's a cache around here somewhere", then that would be technically in compliance with the terms of service, but if you're going that route, then it seems like it would also be perfectly acceptable for kids to find their parents caches by having the parents create an account for the kids and just have the kids dictate the text of their "found it" logs to their parents while the parents are the ones actually typing them in (since technically in that case the kids would not be using the website).

 

For many smaller children it's anyhow a parent writing the logs, not only typing them in, but also formulating the text and there are no legal issues with that.

Edited by cezanne
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Looking for a little input here.

 

I think you're fine letting your child log your caches. Not any different than going out with any other cacher to visit your cache. If she had helped place it, it might be different, but even then she could log it as a beta tester.

 

 

I don't think the restriction in the TOS is meant to imply that children shouldn't geocache with their parents.

 

 

Actually, it explicitly says exactly that. It states that children under 13 are not permitted to use their services at all... full stop.

Actually, it's a COPPA provision, as was already explained. It deals with avoiding the prohibition on collecting information on children under 13. Which means the prohibition is on accessing the site. Full stop.

 

My daughter has been caching with me since she was two days old. She's become slightly more helpful now that she can talk and is ambulatory. I track the caches she finds with us by dipping a coin in each cache we find together, and eventually, round about her 13th birthday or so, she'll get both the coin and her own account if she's interested.

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It also includes the app and any data provided through API services, which would mean that kids also cannot navigate to caches.

 

There are still cachers who do not use apps to navigate and the cache owner has the waypoints available anyway, no need to make use of APIs etc.

 

No company in the world can ensure that children cannot go out with their parents and go search these caches.

 

 

Well yeah, but you'd still need to go through the website or some other channel to get the waypoints in the first place. My point is just that, based on the rules as written, if you're caching with kids under 13 you'd have to cache in a very specific and narrow way if you're really trying to stick to the letter of the Terms of Service as written, and that they seem to be written more narrowly than intended (for example, I've seen Groundspeak post pictures of children under 13 using the app, which is technically a violation of their own Terms of Service as written).

 

 

Actually, it's a COPPA provision, as was already explained. It deals with avoiding the prohibition on collecting information on children under 13. Which means the prohibition is on accessing the site. Full stop.

 

 

That may be the underlying intention behind it, but that's not how the provision is written. The terms of service specifically include the app as being defined in what constitutes "services", and then it specifically says that anybody under 13 is prohibited from using their "services". Maybe that's not what they intended when they wrote the provision, but you have to read it as written, not as how you think it was intended.

 

Section 1.A.i = "The Agreement applies to the following services of Groundspeak: ... GEOCACHING.COM website and mobile application"

 

Section B = "The websites and mobile applications above, including all associated software, content, products and data will be referred to throughout this Agreement simply as our "services.""

 

Section C = "If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement."

 

And to be clear, I'm not saying I think the you shouldn't cache with kids. Or that I think the Terms of Service are well written or that I think they're intended to prevent kids from caching. Obviously Groundspeak promotes children caching all the time... my point is more just that the Terms of Service maybe aren't written so well and don't exactly match up with the reality of how people play the game.

Edited by ZeppelinDT
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Well yeah, but you'd still need to go through the website or some other channel to get the waypoints in the first place.

 

But in case of caches that are owned by the parents (that was the question from the OP) it's rather the other way round.

Have you ever downloaded the waypoints of your own caches from gc.com (except maybe for checking whether the data are correct)? I have not done so because I created my waypoints in the field.

Edited by cezanne
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I guess that's probably true. But I interpreted "pointing the arrow towards the cache" as being a reference to navigating to the cache from the app. I guess it could mean that the parents take the coordinates from their own cache, plug them into a GPSr and then hand that GPSr over to the child with the compass navigation screen displayed, but that seemed a bit of a stretch to me. I obviously could be wrong though.

 

And again, I'm not saying "there's no way for kids to find caches"... I'm just saying that, if you read the terms of service literally then the most common way of caching used by most cachers these days would be in violation of the TOS if done by kids. In my experience, realistically speaking, most kids who cache use the app to navigate to the cache, and it seems like following the arrow to the cache location is just as much a part of the experience as physically searching at GZ.

 

And obviously this is purely an abstract discussion, since Groundspeak is probably not sending lackeys out to hide in the bushes near caches so they watch for kids using the app and then pop out and yell "I caught you violating our Terms of Service!"

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I surely was not trying to spark any kind of debate or anything.

 

Sorry for the issue with the question

 

Ha Ha, some people on these forums will debate about ANYTHING, this one could run and run :-)

 

Anyway for what it's worth I think what you're doing is great, well done in getting the little one involved and excited, and I hope she enjoys seeing all those smiley faces on her map :-)

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It also includes the app and any data provided through API services, which would mean that kids also cannot navigate to caches.

 

There are still cachers who do not use apps to navigate and the cache owner has the waypoints available anyway, no need to make use of APIs etc.

 

No company in the world can ensure that children cannot go out with their parents and go search these caches.

 

 

Well yeah, but you'd still need to go through the website or some other channel to get the waypoints in the first place. My point is just that, based on the rules as written, if you're caching with kids under 13 you'd have to cache in a very specific and narrow way if you're really trying to stick to the letter of the Terms of Service as written, and that they seem to be written more narrowly than intended (for example, I've seen Groundspeak post pictures of children under 13 using the app, which is technically a violation of their own Terms of Service as written).

 

 

Actually, it's a COPPA provision, as was already explained. It deals with avoiding the prohibition on collecting information on children under 13. Which means the prohibition is on accessing the site. Full stop.

 

 

That may be the underlying intention behind it, but that's not how the provision is written. The terms of service specifically include the app as being defined in what constitutes "services", and then it specifically says that anybody under 13 is prohibited from using their "services". Maybe that's not what they intended when they wrote the provision, but you have to read it as written, not as how you think it was intended.

 

Section 1.A.i = "The Agreement applies to the following services of Groundspeak: ... GEOCACHING.COM website and mobile application"

 

Section B = "The websites and mobile applications above, including all associated software, content, products and data will be referred to throughout this Agreement simply as our "services.""

 

Section C = "If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement."

 

And to be clear, I'm not saying I think the you shouldn't cache with kids. Or that I think the Terms of Service are well written or that I think they're intended to prevent kids from caching. Obviously Groundspeak promotes children caching all the time... my point is more just that the Terms of Service maybe aren't written so well and don't exactly match up with the reality of how people play the game.

 

The mobile application poses the same risks re: personal information. Nobody is trying to stop children from geocaching. The rules are there to prevent children from sharing personal information with strangers on the internet.

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I get that. And I certainly wouldn't advocate for preventing kids from geocaching. I teach Geocaching classes at local libraries and to scout groups semi regularly and it almost always involves some degree of teaching kids to Geocache.

 

All I'm saying is that, in the real world, most kids under 13 who Geocache are at some point going to do it using the app, but based on the wording of the Terms of Service, doing that is a violation and is not technically allowed.

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I don't see a problem and others may not either. The only thing I would see is if you put one out that the family member was there and logs a FTF. Some cachers take FTF seriously and even me and my friends would not do that unless if the friend did not know the cache was being published and they find it on their own.

I usually wait til they are out of town before I submit one.

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It also includes the app and any data provided through API services, which would mean that kids also cannot navigate to caches.

 

There are still cachers who do not use apps to navigate and the cache owner has the waypoints available anyway, no need to make use of APIs etc.

 

No company in the world can ensure that children cannot go out with their parents and go search these caches.

 

 

Well yeah, but you'd still need to go through the website or some other channel to get the waypoints in the first place. My point is just that, based on the rules as written, if you're caching with kids under 13 you'd have to cache in a very specific and narrow way if you're really trying to stick to the letter of the Terms of Service as written, and that they seem to be written more narrowly than intended (for example, I've seen Groundspeak post pictures of children under 13 using the app, which is technically a violation of their own Terms of Service as written).

 

Actually, it's a COPPA provision, as was already explained. It deals with avoiding the prohibition on collecting information on children under 13. Which means the prohibition is on accessing the site. Full stop.

 

 

That may be the underlying intention behind it, but that's not how the provision is written. The terms of service specifically include the app as being defined in what constitutes "services", and then it specifically says that anybody under 13 is prohibited from using their "services". Maybe that's not what they intended when they wrote the provision, but you have to read it as written, not as how you think it was intended.

 

Section 1.A.i = "The Agreement applies to the following services of Groundspeak: ... GEOCACHING.COM website and mobile application"

 

Section B = "The websites and mobile applications above, including all associated software, content, products and data will be referred to throughout this Agreement simply as our "services.""

 

Section C = "If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement."

 

And to be clear, I'm not saying I think the you shouldn't cache with kids. Or that I think the Terms of Service are well written or that I think they're intended to prevent kids from caching. Obviously Groundspeak promotes children caching all the time... my point is more just that the Terms of Service maybe aren't written so well and don't exactly match up with the reality of how people play the game.

 

I wonder how many kids under the age of 13 attended a Block Party event and Groundspeak had to spend all day chasing them away from the area.

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Wow. I wasnt trying to break rules or anything. Just trying to have something productive and fun to do with my daughter. My daughter doesnt log in. I do all her logging for her. She has friend on there, but are people we know or have met, and they want to check her find progress. I often take pics with her and the cache for proof if ever a question.

 

I surely was not trying to spark any kind of debate or anything.

 

Sorry for the issue with the question

 

I'm joining this thread late, and haven't read it all yet, but I sure hope that it has been explained to you by now that your question was perfectly OK, and that what you are doing with your daughter is an excellent family building activity. Keep doing what you're doing.

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Give me a break!

To the OP, what you're doing is just fine. Keep it up!

Many of the other posters in this thread, with their legalism, need to get out more.

 

Actually, their legalese isn't really about the situation at hand, anyway. The 6 year old is not using the site at all. She is simply finding caches. Her parents set up her account, and her parents log her finds. There really is nothing to even argue about here, and to post the TOS in this situation is about as silly and useless as I can fathom.

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I say cache with your kid however you want regardless of corporate TOS. Your parenting of your child trumps almost everything else any other person or organization says about it. The statements are there simply for legal purposes and I doubt would ever be enforced. That could be a PR nightmare for any family-friendly business.

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Actually, their legalese isn't really about the situation at hand, anyway. The 6 year old is not using the site at all. She is simply finding caches. Her parents set up her account, and her parents log her finds. There really is nothing to even argue about here, and to post the TOS in this situation is about as silly and useless as I can fathom.

Your point is bang on. But I would go on to say that since she's not really logging her own finds, they shouldn't pretend she's an independent cacher. It's not that it's terrible or hurts anyone else, it's just that, if they think it through, they'll likely realize it's not really doing anything interesting that having a single team account wouldn't do better, even if the "team" account is just Dad's account.

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Actually, their legalese isn't really about the situation at hand, anyway. The 6 year old is not using the site at all. She is simply finding caches. Her parents set up her account, and her parents log her finds. There really is nothing to even argue about here, and to post the TOS in this situation is about as silly and useless as I can fathom.

Your point is bang on. But I would go on to say that since she's not really logging her own finds, they shouldn't pretend she's an independent cacher. It's not that it's terrible or hurts anyone else, it's just that, if they think it through, they'll likely realize it's not really doing anything interesting that having a single team account wouldn't do better, even if the "team" account is just Dad's account.

 

Thanks for acknowledging the validity of my point. However, I would not agree that they "should not pretend" anything. From the sounds of it, she is still the one doing the searching (most likely with some "hot" and "cold" hints, I'd guess). But what harm does it do to play that sort of game with your kid? It is parental bonding of the best kind.

 

What I find much sillier is when parents hide a cache, create the cache page, and do everything, but then title it as though it was their 2 year old's first hide. I've seen a lot of those, with nobody complaining (except that more often than not, it also seems to be the parent's first hide, and they almost always use a margarine tub for the container :lol:)

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But what harm does it do to play that sort of game with your kid?

Yes, as I said, it does no harm.

 

It is parental bonding of the best kind.

I don't see how going online and writing the logs as if the kid was writing them fosters bonding. The search and the find are the same, and I think the better bonding exercise would be working together to come up with the team log.

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