Part 2: PA State Parks geocaching guidelines

March 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by IV_Warrior:
Can we safely assume that ammo cans are OK in state parks now? I was just e-mailed info about placing a cache in a state park by a state park ranger. There were two documents, one about geocaching in general and the second a form to fill out. The only restriction I saw mentioned on containers was no plastic (PVC) pipe. I didn't see any mention of containers needing to me clear. The cache name does have to be on the outside of the container.

There were several restrictions on locations (no sensitive/dangerous areas) and contents (no hazardous materials/porno etc.) but containers seemed pretty limitless. The just don't want PVC, probably because they might resemble pipe bombs....

Just because you're paranoid _DOESN'T_ mean they're not _ALL_ out to get you.

There was some indication that any restrictions on ammo cans would be lifted. There are some caches right now using ammo cans that have been registered and approved by the Bureau of State Forest.

If the manager says your container is ok...go for it

Salvelinus

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

Ralph Abele

March 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by gnbrotz:
As of this post, the terms "geocache" and "geocaching" still do not appear anywhere on the DCNR website. My personal opinion is when the policy is publicly posted, I will again approach my local officials. I've made contact with both my local State Park, and State Forestry office, and neither knew enough to be of any help. When they post the info on their website, at least I'll be able to show them their own policy.

I pulled two caches when the guidelines were 'enacted'; but as soon as the snow is gone and I can get back in the woods, they're going back out. I don't expect enforcement of a policy when they can't even discuss it's parameters with me. I support their efforts, but I expect them to get their act together and be knowledgeable of their own policies before they expect ME to abide by them.

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

You make some very valid points, but I assure you that not every policy State Agencies enforce is posted on their respective websites. There is a certain amount of responsibility that should be accepted by users and managers of public lands to make sure they know the regulations and guidelines of those lands? That being said, I will offer you this:

With an Agency spread out in field offices within all counties of this state, it will naturally take some time for them to communicate the policy internally. This is where they are in the process now. It is normal that new guidelines are not convayed publically until internal notification is completed. However, once a Park or Forest manager is informed internally and are prepared to register caches, they COULD begin taking action on unregistered caches. But I suspect (and hope) most will be understanding the first year and try to contact unregistered cache owners before they permanetly remove them. I have had DCNR business cards left in two of mine.

So I encourage you to have patience with the public notification of these guidelines. I am confident that the DCNR will provide ample public notification once they have brought all their people "up to speed" on the guidelines.

In the meantime, since many of us are aware a policy does exist, I think it behooves us to be proactive in at least contacting them when placing caches in these areas. Many cache approvals have already been given, but I too, have had State Forest managers give me stupid looks when I approached them with registering my caches. Instead of getting bent out of shape about it, I just provided them my cache pages, exchanged contact information with them, and told them I would return when they are farther along in the registration process. An occasional phone call to the office updates me on how far along that office is in their ability to register caches.

Good Luck,

Salvelinus

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

Ralph Abele

4.1k · March 13, 2003

I have been away from geocaching and these forums for quite some time and I am glad to read of the forward progress! I need to get on the stick about my own caches and permission for them.

Thanks for keeping the torches burning, folks!

-----

You must be present to win.

March 25, 2003

Ok everyone!

The new geocaching guidelines are now posted HERE on the DCNR website. There is also a downloadable geocache identification form available.

Spread the word and please register your existing caches as well. I worry that too many "rogue" caches may make some park managers reconsider approval of future caches.

Then again...I may worry too much.

Good Luck!

Salvelinus

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

Ralph Abele

38.2k · March 25, 2003

Not all cache owners visit these forums. It might be a good idea to seek out owners of "rouge caches" and

let them know about the new guidelines and procedures.

"An appeaser is one who keeps feeding a crocodile-hoping it will eat him last" -Winston Churchill

March 25, 2003

I'd like extend my gratitude and congratulations to those who spearheaded this great public relations effort on behalf of the Pennsylvania Geocaching Community.

Cachier

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

4.1k · March 25, 2003

Wow - this is awesome.

Here are some ways to spread the word:

tell folks who attend the Event Caches
put somehting in your profile about the DCNR guidelines
we collected names and email at last year's South Central PA picnic, so I'll use that email group to spread the word.
other ideas?

-----

You must be present to win.

March 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
Not all cache owners visit these forums. It might be a good idea to seek out owners of "rouge caches" and

let them know about the new guidelines and procedures.

_"An appeaser is one who keeps feeding a crocodile-hoping it will eat him last" -Winston Churchill_

Well, considering Pennsylvania has 116 State Parks and 19 State Forest covering 2.1 million acres, I don't think I have the time to seek out unregistered caches on these lands. However, I will pass along the information about any that I may come across and I'm sure others will do the same.

In the meantime, spreading the word on on the cache pages as Miss Jenn suggested may also help create the snowball effect we are looking for.

Salvelinus

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

Ralph Abele

1.3k · March 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Salvelinus:
The new geocaching guidelines are now posted http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/geocaching.htm on the DCNR website. There is also a downloadable geocache identification form available.

Has anyone seen the "Geocache Agreement Form" also mentioned on their page? I'm hoping it's basically the same as the posted guidelines and that the assumption of liability by the cache hider has been done away with.

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

March 25, 2003

I got this awhile ago (back in January, I think)from a geocacher who also happens to be a DCNR employee but I didn't want to post it until I got some sort of confirmation that this was the latest version of the form but I'm pretty sure this is what you are going to get if you show up at a State Park or State Forest office to register your cache. I received the following explantion along with the docs already posted on the website when I requested copies of the new forms: "When a cache owner has met with the Park Manager or Forest District Manager and agreed upon a site for a new cache, the Agreement form will be completed by the Manager. I didn't send the agreement to you because it is something we would do at the park or forestry office."

Here is the the "Geocache Identification Form" I obtained from another source:

This agreement is made this _____ day of _____________________, in the year_______ by and between the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Bureau of State Parks / Bureau of Forestry (”DEPARTMENT”) and __________________________________ (“RESPONSIBLE PARTY”).

The DEPARTMENT is willing to permit the RESPONSIBLE PARTY to place the geocache(s), subject to the conditions listed below:

1. This permission is in effect for the period beginning ______________ through ______________ (not to exceed 3 years); however, the permission may be revoked at any time by the DEPARTMENT acting through a Park Manager / District Forester or designee.

2. RESPONSIBLE PARTY will remove geocache on or before the date of expiration of this permission and inform the Park Manager / District Forester in writing of the removal; however, if this permission is revoked, RESPONSIBLE PARTY will remove the geocache within 48 hours upon being informed of the revocation by the Park Manager / District Forester or designee.

3. The cache may not be placed within Natural Areas or Wild Plant Sanctuaries, or on stream banks, riparian zones, wetlands, prehistoric and historic archaeological sites, exemplary natural communities, ecologically sensitive areas, unique geological features, dam structures, or unsafe areas.

4. PNDI Screening Results (attach PNDI Internet Database Search Results):

___ No potential conflicts.

___ Potential conflicts.

5. RESPONSIBLE PARTY is not permitted to do the following:

a. Disturb or impact the soil or vegetation at the approved geocache site;

b. Move or alter approved geocache location;

c. Allow the insertion of hazardous, illegal or pornographic materials in the geocache container;

d. Place cache(s) on dam structure; or,

e. Other (state “no other conditions” or list other conditions): _____________________________________________________________

6. DEPARTMENT does not assume responsibility or liability for injury to any person or damage to any property sustained as a result of the placement or existence of the geocache, or use of the geocache by any person with any device or for any purpose.

7. RESPONSIBLE PARTY will be liable for the costs associated with site damage repair and the removal of hazardous or illegal material.

8. This agreement may not be construed as a waiver of any immunity the DEPARTMENT may have.

_________________________________ ____________________________________

Printed Name of Person Signing Agreement Responsible Party Signature

____________________________________

Park Manager / District Forester or Designee Signature

Johnny

March 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cache chasers:
LOL I don' thave the time to sit and read 38 posts...so give me the scoop on what I have to do to place a cache in a state park. I would like to place one ASAP in Shawnee State Park, Schellsburg, PA

If you place a cache in Shawnee State Park, make sure that it's location isn't too close to the existing one!

March 25, 2003

Quest Master, thanks for posting the form!

The Buzzard's

9.1k · March 25, 2003

I am happy to see the PA geocaching policy finalized! While the policy and the forms are not "perfect," they truly show compromises from our State's resource managers - - who genuinely seem to be supportive of geocaching. Ammo boxes are permitted containers (only PVC pipe is banned, I have no problem with that) and the dreaded "indemnification" paragraph has been removed from the legalese agreement that you sign at the park/forest office. Thanks, Quest Master, for posting that.

In my discussions outside of the forums with Quest Master and others, I've indicated that I will be happy to follow the new policy and use the forms. I am placing several caches with permission at a State Park next month! But if anyone has any remaining questions, please post them here, and we will all try to help.

By the way, I highly recommend contacting the park or forest office BEFORE placing your new geocache, using the identification form from the website. They will want to approve your location anyways, and you may be surprised... I am working with a park employee who WANTS to show me the coolest hiding spots in the park.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

I was formerly employed by the Department of Redundancy Department, but I don't work there anymore.

9.1k · March 25, 2003

Like others who posted above, I think it's important to publicize the new Pennsylvania geocaching policy. To that end, I designed a logo that I plan to use on all my cache pages for geocaches that are placed in Pennsylvania State Parks or Forests. My buddy Tonsil, who can run circles around me at a computer, was kind enough to execute my idea as a professional looking graphic. I would encourage everyone to place this logo in their cache description by linking to http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/57636_2000.jpg. When people see the logo, they will get the idea that permission is an important part of setting up a cache. PLEASE NOTE: This logo is NOT yet approved or endorsed by DCNR. If others like the idea, we should probably show this to Charlie Meade or other DCNR managers. Hope this helps.

4.1k · March 26, 2003

It will work really well, I think. I know I have gotten positive results from a similar type of logo with my cache in Indiana.

Thanks, Leprechaun and friends!

-----

You must be present to win.

March 26, 2003

Like the logo, and just a side note I was contacted by presque isle so it appears the parks do have the info and know what's going on.

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

2.4k · March 27, 2003

I like the logo Lep. I also think it'd make for a nice sticker to place on the outside of the cache container. That way "accidental" finders would know that permission was received and that it's not "trash, bomb, dangerous, whatever...."

Just because you're paranoid DOESN'T mean they're not ALL out to get you.

March 28, 2003

Rolling this one back up. I found it on page 7 and most of the responses are missing. Only 17 replies? Anyone know what's going on?

Salvelinus

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

Ralph Abele

[This message was edited by Salvelinus on March 28, 2003 at 06:03 AM.]

4.1k · March 28, 2003

Hmmmmm ...

It seem sthat the switch to the "new forums" deleted everything after October 08, 2002 and right before your post Ralph. I'll let TPTB know.

-----

You must be present to win.

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by MissJenn:
Hmmmmm ...

It seem sthat the switch to the "new forums" deleted everything after October 08, 2002 and right before your post Ralph. I'll let TPTB know.

-----

_You must be present to win._

LOL I'm not Ralph...its really Bob! Ralph is the guy who said that quote.

Thank you for letting them know. I didn't have time to look into it much, but it appears many of the posts are missing.

Salvelinus

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

Ralph Abele

4.1k · April 2, 2003

The changeover to these new forums has broken the link to Part 1 of this thread. In case anyone wants it, this link should work:

Part 1: Pennsylvania State Park Caches - Permission Contact Info

-----

You must be present to win.

4.1k · April 15, 2003

So, shall we forward this logo on to Charlie Meade? Or has that already been done? Or, are you waiting for more PA cache-hiders to respond on whether they like it or not? Or, did weather get warm (finally!) and we are all out caching instead of dealing with this type of office-work?

Just curious.

quote:
Originally posted by The Leprechauns:
...To that end, I designed a logo that I plan to use on all my cache pages for geocaches that are placed in Pennsylvania State Parks or Forests. My buddy Tonsil, who can run circles around me at a computer, was kind enough to execute my idea as a professional looking graphic. I would encourage everyone to place this logo in their cache description by linking to http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/57636_2000.jpg. When people see the logo, they will get the idea that permission is an important part of setting up a cache. PLEASE NOTE: This logo is NOT yet approved or endorsed by DCNR. If others like the idea, we should probably show this to Charlie Meade or other DCNR managers. Hope this helps.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/57636_2000.jpg

-----

You must be present to win.

April 15, 2003

Has any one submitted their caches for approval in any State Parks???

I have 2 pending. In looking at the Form you fill out you need the geocaching URL for your cache. I've had to

1 Fill out cache with geocaching.com

2 Submit Forms to Park Ranger for permission

3 wait for permission.

4 place cache.

I am currently waiting Approval(from everyone) Ranger asked that Caches NOT be placed until they're approved!

There is nothing like a Packrat who is a geocacher.

9.1k · April 15, 2003

MissJenn... I'll e-mail Charlie Meade from home this evening and ask if the State minds our use and adaptation of their logo. I plan on using it for the four geocaches I'm working on for Raccoon Creek State Park, site of a CITO Event on April 26th. Most of my time lately has been devoted to planning for the event.

And, reading geo-Packrat's post, it sounds like I'm working with a more relaxed ranger. We discussed the locations of my planned caches (he even suggested two of them) and he told me of an area to avoid because of a protected plant area. I placed the caches last weekend. I guess I'd better put the cache pages together tonight (with the logo!) so that I can then complete the permission form with the URL and GC number. Later this week, I'll visit the ranger to do the paperwork. I plan on submitting a little booklet with the cache printouts, topozone printouts and photographs of the caches in their hiding spots. Everything should then be in place by April 26th!

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

.sdrawkcab dootsrednu tub sdrawrof devil si efiL

4.1k · April 16, 2003

way cool

-----

You must be present to win.

9.1k · April 16, 2003

I sent the following e-mail to Charlie Meade this morning. I will let everyone know what I hear back.

Dear Mr. Meade,

I am one of the many Pennsylvania geocachers who is just delighted to see the new DCNR policy on the placement of caches in state parks and forests. To help say "thank you," I mobilized the Pittsburgh area geocachers to help out with a spring cleanup event at Raccoon Creek State Park on April 26th. We expect more than 50 volunteers to help with litter pickup and trail maintenance!

In connection with this event, I am placing four new geocaches in the park under the new rules. I've been working with [ranger name] from the Raccoon Creek staff, and he has been very helpful in making sure that appropriate spots are chosen for the geocaches. I will be filling out the paperwork and posting these caches on the geocaching website in the very near future.

When designing the web page, I wanted to convey to the reader that the caches are placed with permission from DCNR. I came up with the idea of a logo to include on my cache pages. The graphic, which is attached below, contains the DCNR logo, the familiar Pennsylvania "keystone" symbol, and the words "placed with permission." This eye-catching logo will help to alert other geocachers that they need to understand the rules before placing a geocache on DCNR-managed property.

I showed the graphic to other geocachers, and they liked it so much that they want to use it on their geocache description pages, too. It then occurred to me that I had better check with someone from DCNR, because I copied your department's logo off your website without obtaining permission. Could you please look at the logo, check with anyone who would need to approve its use, and let me know if it is OK for geocachers to use it?

In case you do not wish to open a file attachment for any reason, you may also view the logo online at http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/57636_2000.jpg . I look forward to hearing from you, and I hope you like my idea. Thank you again for your efforts to work with Pennsylvania geocachers.

Sincerely,

[Mr. Leprechaun]

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

.sdrawkcab dootsrednu tub sdrawrof devil si efiL

9.1k · April 16, 2003

Use the Logo!

I received this very nice response to my letter today from Charlie Meade at DCNR. Please use the special "Placed with Permission" logo on your cache pages, and encourage others to do the same!

Just paste the following html code to have the logo appear in your cache description:

You'll need to check the "I am supplying the html" box for this to work.

Thanks again to Tonsil for the professional design job on our new graphic.

quote:
Dear David,

I'm glad to see that most of the geocachers are satisfied with the new guidelines. This was possible in great part to the constructive feedback we received from the community during the drafting process.

We also greatly appreciate the fact that geocachers are taking an active part in helping us improve our state parks.

You and others are welcome to use the logo you designed on the geocache description pages.

We look forward to working with the geocache community in the future. If you or anyone in your community ever need my assistance, please feel free to contact me.

Regards,

Charlie

Charlie Meade

Bureau of State Parks

Operations Section

Part 2: PA State Parks geocaching guidelines

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