Part 2: PA State Parks geocaching guidelines

[+MissJenn]

This thread is the continuation of "Pennsylvania State Park Caches - Permission Contact Info" (an earlier thread that is now 3 pages long). If you are a latecomer to the discussion, you can read up on the important back history by clicking the link above.

 

Sept 30, 2002:

So, what is the latest news from Charlie Meade regarding the guidelines? Are they still in DRAFT form, or is anything official now?

 

-----

You must be present to win.

 

[This message was edited by MissJenn on September 30, 2002 at 10:11 AM.]

[+JackQuest]

Last word I had was that Mr Meade would send out the final version of the forms when thay were released.

 

TEAM JackQuest (8H/11F)

Jack, Cyber & Drager

www.jackquest.com

Base Camp N 40 20.268' W 75 37.969' (WGS84)

[+Shoebox]

Are we still talking to the State Forest people? I haven't heard much about that lately. Thanks.

 

Shoebox

[+Quest Master]

I have some "news" to report from various sources.

 

1. I was contacted a couple of weeks ago by the assistant manager for Ohiopyle State Park about possibly doing some sort of a presentation about geocaching to DCNR personnel. I lost my notes on this conversation and my memory fails me. I can't remember if he said if it was going to State College or Harrisburg or if it was scheduled for somtime in January or March. He said that he was going to send me something on this but so far I haven't received anything. I guess I will have to try getting in touch with him again to find out what the deal is.

 

2. An employee of the DCNR Bureau of Forestry informed me that there is some kind of a meeting about geocaching taking place on October 23 in Harrisburg. The person in charge is Stacey White. The representative from the district office in Moraine State Park is Matt Marcinic. I am trying to find out if we can have a geocacher present at the meeting to answer questions and offer input. I hope that others on this board will also try to find out more about this meeting so that we can get somebody there to represent us.

 

3. A fellow geocacher has reported to me that he got forms from a state park office that did not have the legalese stuff but did still contain the prohibition against ammo cans. The form that he described (although I did not see it for myself) was not exactly like any of the forms that have already been posted on these discussion boards. It would be helpful if somebody who lives close to a state park would pick up a current form and post it here for us.

 

4. The Bureau of Forestry has removed at least two caches from State Forest Lands because the caches were not properly registered. This information is described in detail in another topic started by Smooch. Could somebody who knows how better to work this computer thing please post the links to this thread here for me? I'm too busy to figure it out right now!

 

5. Geocaching.com is thinking about providing us some kind of special forum where we can post rules, registration forms, etc. Mr. Leprechaun started a topic on this issue. I think we need to do something. Could somebody post the link for this thread too?

 

6. Has anyone heard from Mr. Meade lately? I think that he has grown weary of the flood of email on the geocaching subject. I arranged to get a free premium membership from geocaching.com for the DCNR so that nobody could fly under the radar of the authorities with a members-only cache. I pitched the idea to Mr. Meade but I never got a response.

 

7. I invited the DCNR Bureaus of Forestry and State Parks to send representatives to my event geocache on October 6. I got no reply from Parks and Forestry declined but I did get the name of a real live person at the Bureau of Forestry in Harrisburg:

 

Matt Beaver

Recreation Section

Operations & Recreation Division

Bureau of Forestry

Department of Conservation & Natural Resources

forestrecreation@state.pa.us

 

Johnny

 

[This message was edited by Quest Master on September 30, 2002 at 03:41 PM.]

[+Alan2]

It's really great what you're all doing over there in PA. I don't know what's going on here in NY. Frankly, I'm afraid to ask. When you check the state rules on the web., there's nothing mentioned about geocaching. Does anyone know what the rules are here in NYS?

 

One suggestion on you presentation that might be helkpful. Remind them that GPS have tremendous value to other people who use state lands: Hunters, fisherman, hikers etc. They might be interested in adding GPS coordinates to various park fafccility locatios. As mnore and more people use GPS's this would be very helpful. What's wrong with geocacher assisting in getting some of these GPS locations for them? The7y would be appreciative I;m sure.

 

Alan

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quest Master:

I have some "news" to report from various sources.

 

1. I was contacted a couple of weeks ago by the assistant manager for Ohiopyle State Park about possibly doing some sort of a presentation about geocaching to DCNR personnel. I lost my notes on this conversation and my memory fails me. I can't remember if he said if it was going to State College or Harrisburg or if it was scheduled for somtime in January or March. He said that he was going to send me something on this but so far I haven't received anything. I guess I will have to try getting in touch with him again to find out what the deal is.

 

2. An employee of the DCNR Bureau of Forestry informed me that there is some kind of a meeting about geocaching taking place on October 23 in Harrisburg. The person in charge is Stacey White. The representative from the district office in Moraine State Park is Matt Marcinic. I am trying to find out if we can have a geocacher present at the meeting to answer questions and offer input. I hope that others on this board will also try to find out more about this meeting so that we can get somebody there to represent us.

 

3. A fellow geocacher has reported to me that he got forms from a state park office that did not have the legalese stuff but did still contain the prohibition against ammo cans. The form that he described (although I did not see it for myself) was not exactly like any of the forms that have already been posted on these discussion boards. It would be helpful if somebody who lives close to a state park would pick up a current form and post it here for us.

 

4. The Bureau of Forestry has removed at least two caches from State Forest Lands because the caches were not properly registered. This information is described in detail in another topic started by Smooch. Could somebody who knows how better to work this computer thing please post the links to this thread here for me? I'm too busy to figure it out right now!

 

5. Geocaching.com is thinking about providing us some kind of special forum where we can post rules, registration forms, etc. Mr. Leprechaun started a topic on this issue. I think we need to do something. Could somebody post the link for this thread too?

 

6. Has anyone heard from Mr. Meade lately? I think that he has grown weary of the flood of email on the geocaching subject. I arranged to get a free premium membership from geocaching.com for the DCNR so that nobody could fly under the radar of the authorities with a members-only cache. I pitched the idea to Mr. Meade but I never got a response.

 

7. I invited the DCNR Bureaus of Forestry and State Parks to send representatives to my event geocache on October 6. I got no reply from Parks and Forestry declined but I did get the name of a real live person at the Bureau of Forestry in Harrisburg:

 

Matt Beaver

Recreation Section

Operations & Recreation Division

Bureau of Forestry

Department of Conservation & Natural Resources

forestrecreation@state.pa.us

 

Johnny

 

[This message was edited by Quest Master on September 30, 2002 at 03:41 PM.]

---

 

I got an e-mail from Olf D'Coors last evening with a long explanation of what happened to those caches up in Elk and Moshannon State Forests. Basically, the whole situation was very non-confrontational and I expect some of them to be back online as soon as paperwork can be completed.

 

I'll ask Olf from the Keystone Cachers to post an update to this forum. I'll make an attempt on finding the links to the couple I know about.

 

Kune Camp

 

Dobbys Home

 

Here is one that has been permitted:

Treed Bears Cache

 

Can you provide any more info on the contact person for that meeting. I will inquire about possibly going, but it may be an internal meeting.

 

Keep in touch,

Smoochnme

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+The Leprechauns]

Thanks, everyone, for your updates.

 

Here is a link to the thread where I asked for a Special Section on This Site where we can keep track of existing land manager policies and discuss issues that arise. Post a reply over there if you think it's a good idea.

 

I'm sure that the State Parks will be one of the hot discussion topics this Sunday at Quest Master's Geocaching Picnic.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames.

[Reamerstraff]

On July 18, 2002, Boy Scout Troop 9 placed the Moose Hill Geocache in a remote section of Yellow Creek State Park, with the permission of the park manager. I agreed to act as the contact person for the troop. The container is an olive-drab 50mm ammo canister, chosen because it is rugged, unbreakable, and watertight. The outside of the can bears a large Boy Scout decal and the legend, “Moose Hill Geocache” in large stenciled letters in yellow paint.

 

Subsequently, the troop learned of the registration regulations for geocaches in state parks. We requested and received a “Geocache Identification Form.” When we received the form, we discovered that Regulation #3 included the following statement:

 

“Container shall be of a transparent material that will allow users to identify the presence or absence of hazardous material prior to opening. The use of glass is prohibited.”

 

We have no quarrel with the prohibition of glass due to the likelihood of breakage. But to prohibit opaque containers is unreasonable. I attempted to contact the park manager, but he was not available that day. I then called the manager of another park with whom I am well acquainted. He put me in touch with a Mr. Mike Marcinic at the park Regional office. Mr. Marcinic told me that the regulations are still in draft form, and subject to revision. He offered his opinion that plainly labeled opaque containers would probably be acceptable, and suggested that the Boy Scout troop sign and submit the agreement with the transparency requirement crossed out. The troop did so.

 

On October 3, 2002, the manager of Yellow Creek State Park sent the following letter to me:

 

We have received your signed copy of the Geocache Identification Form for the Moose Hill Geocache to be maintained at Yellow Creek State Park by Boy Scout Troop 9. My review of the document revealed that the special condition requiring the use of a transparent container was crossed out. In your cover letter you outlined your objections to the transparent container requirement.

 

Geocaches have been in place at other State Parks for a couple of years, and none have suffered from your concerns listed in #3 of your letter. More importantly, the person responsible for maintaining the geocache is also responsible for maintaining the container.

 

We do not feel that the special conditions listed in the agreement are negotiable. A transparent container is required for a geocache located on Yellow Creek State Park. I have attached a new agreement with the special conditions listed.

 

I hope that you and your troop are willing to maintain the Moose Hill geocache in accordance with the requirements. If so, please sign the agreement, replace the geocache with the appropriate container, and return the form to the park office as soon as possible, but no later than October 27, 2002. Otherwise, the geocache should be removed immediately. As always, if you have any questions or would like to discuss anything further, please contact me at the above location and I would be more than happy to address any concerns you may have.

 

Sincerely,

Kenneth E. Bisbee

Park Manager

[+gnbrotz]

It was my understanding that they prohibiltion on cache boxes had been lifted by Mr. Meade (or he at least agreed it would be). This was mentioned in the old thread. Perhaps you can confirm that the people you're dealing with have the most current draft.

 

Also, I would advise them the what you did in regards to crossing out provisions was recommended to you (and by whom), and you did not take it upon yourself to do that.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by gnbrotz:

It was my understanding that they prohibiltion on cache boxes had been lifted by Mr. Meade (or he at least agreed it would be). This was mentioned in the old thread. Perhaps you can confirm that the people you're dealing with have the most current draft.

 

Also, I would advise them the what you did in regards to crossing out provisions was recommended to you (and by whom), and you did not take it upon yourself to do that.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

---

 

I just found THIS cache today which was an ammo can and was approved by the Bureau of Forestry.

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Quest Master]

We seem to be getting confused here.

 

Firstly, Mr. Meade did say that the ban on ammo boxes would be lifted but he made it clear that the forms that he gave us were just a draft and that no final decisions had been made with regard to ammo cans or anything else. It would appear that it has been decided that clear plastic containers must be used for geocaches in state parks. I don't like it and I am inclined to fight it but I think we have to accept that this is the rule for now. I have one ammo-can cache in a state park which was registered with a different form that didn't have the no ammo cans rule and two more ammo-can caches that I haven't registered yet. I did get verbal permission from park managers for all of these caches so they have my name and contact info. I'm going to wait for them to contact me before I do anything about registering my caches in the parks. I don't think they have figured out exactly how they are going to deal with geocaching just yet. It will be very interesting to see what happens next!

 

Second, the Bureau of Forestry never has had any rule against ammo cans but their current registration form does contain a lot of legalese including a provision that the cache owner may be held liable for "the costs associated with site damage repair and the removal of hazardous or illegal material". I am a bit uneasy about putting my signature on their document.

 

Johnny

[+MissJenn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quest Master:

We seem to be getting confused here.

---

 

Yep. And it's easy to see how, too! I think we just need to be extra communicative and explain the ameboid set of information that is out there to the various park staff that we encounter.

 

We, the geocachers, are VERY tuned in to this topic and a few of us know exactly which clause was most recently taken out and by who and why, etc. On the other hand, the various park rangers, assistant rangers, and various other staff are busy doing their usual jobs and are not updated on this one specific topic as much as we are. Completely understandable.

 

I guess we just have to remain patient and (in a nice way) be persistent in keeping the topic on the front burner with Mr. Meade. He seems to be the hub.

 

I myself have not communicated with him in a while - taking the advice of someone else on the original thread (sorry I forget who posted that!) who suggested that 25 people bombarding this guy with emails might not be the best way to go about things. You folks who have shared YOUR recent communications with him are so awesome at posting that info here, and that works well for me.

 

Patience, communication, patience, communication, patience, communication!

[+MissJenn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quest Master:

We seem to be getting confused here.

---

 

Yep. And it's easy to see how, too! I think we just need to be extra communicative and explain the ameboid set of information that is out there to the various park staff that we encounter.

 

We, the geocachers, are VERY tuned in to this topic and a few of us know exactly which clause was most recently taken out and by who and why, etc. On the other hand, the various park rangers, assistant rangers, and various other staff are busy doing their usual jobs and are not updated on this one specific topic as much as we are. Completely understandable.

 

I guess we just have to remain patient and (in a nice way) be persistent in keeping the topic on the front burner with Mr. Meade. He seems to be the hub.

 

I myself have not communicated with him in a while - taking the advice of someone else on the original thread (sorry I forget who posted that!) who suggested that 25 people bombarding this guy with emails might not be the best way to go about things. You folks who have shared YOUR recent communications with him are so awesome at posting that info here, and that works well for me.

 

Patience, communication, patience, communication, patience, communication!

[enfanta]

...allow us to reinstate this cache?

 

"[The Limestone Quarry] cache is no longer there. The Park Rangers removed it due to the proximity to the quarry walls. They felt people would get injuried looking for it. ...the park rangers left an explaination in the logbook on what happened to this cache."

 

I've been following this thread off and on but if someone could refresh my memory, I'd appreciate it. Does the permission form allow us to place caches anywhere semi-reasonable? (I logged this cache and it required some climbing but nothing technical. It was also a lot of fun. I'd hate to lose all caches of this sort...)

[+PSUPAUL]

I received an email fromMr Mead yesterday with two draft documents. Most of the legalese is gone I also did not see anything about clear containers or not allowing ammo cans. I don't have the electronic docson this computer, maybe I can post them tomorrow. It seems pretty basic, just no trashing the area or placing them on stream banks and dams or historical sites. I thought it was a pretty agreeable document. Mr Meade did say that it was still a draft and would be posted on the DCNR web site when approved.

[+Cachier]

quote:

---

Originally posted by enfanta:

...allow us to reinstate this cache?

 

"[The Limestone Quarry] cache is no longer there. The Park Rangers removed it due to the proximity to the quarry walls. They felt people would get injuried looking for it. ...the park rangers left an explaination in the logbook on what happened to this cache."

 

I've been following this thread off and on but if someone could refresh my memory, I'd appreciate it. Does the permission form allow us to place caches anywhere semi-reasonable? (I logged this cache and it required some climbing but nothing technical. It was also a lot of fun. I'd hate to lose all caches of this sort...)

---

 

In cases such as the one you mentioned above, I believe we should respect the professional judgement of the park officials who host the venue for our caches. Their primary concern is for the safety of the public while on the park property as well as protection of the park property and ecosystems.

 

I believe the forms will control approval of the cache location with restrictions by local parks on various areas within the park.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by enfanta:

...allow us to reinstate this cache?

 

"[The Limestone Quarry] cache is no longer there. The Park Rangers removed it due to the proximity to the quarry walls. They felt people would get injuried looking for it. ...the park rangers left an explaination in the logbook on what happened to this cache."

 

I've been following this thread off and on but if someone could refresh my memory, I'd appreciate it. Does the permission form allow us to place caches anywhere semi-reasonable? (I logged this cache and it required some climbing but nothing technical. It was also a lot of fun. I'd hate to lose all caches of this sort...)

---

 

I hope so Enfanta! I haven't had the chance to look for that one yet. I'm sure if the cache owners contacted the park they could work out a better location and still maintain the old quarry theme. Then again I wasn't ever there so maybe not. But it may be worth a try.

 

I also noticed that the park checked out the other cache in the park. They said it was fine to have it there but they wanted it registered by the owner. Its in the logs so I would think they got the message.

 

Smoochnme

 

ps. Thanks for the kudos on the other topic! I may be teaming up with the Shadows for a new multi-cache near Scotia. Look for it.

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Quest Master]

quote:

---

Does the permission form allow us to place caches anywhere semi-reasonable?

---

 

It does but the language is vague enough that geocaches could be excluded from just about everywhere in any park. The park managers will ultimately decide what is reasonable. I think that this is how it should be given that they will be the ones who have to coordinate a search and rescure operation and fill out a mountain of paperwork when somebody gets hurt. I expect that they would also be held responsible for damage to sensitive areas caused by the existance of a geocache.

 

It is always a shame to lose a cache but the first best way to avoid this problem is to respect the authority of the park managers by stopping in at the park office and asking permission first. Good relations with park managers is the key to getting a "semi-reasonable" interpetation of the policy.

 

Johnny

[enfanta]

...gotta agree with you guys. I can see how placing a cache in the side of a cliff would give most land managers the screaming heebee-jeebies.

[Reamerstraff]

Two days ago, I called Mr. Marcinek at Park Region 2. He linked the call to Mr. Mead at the Bureau of State Parks Harrisburg headquarters. They told me that the transparent container requirement would almost certainly be dropped. Supposedly the bureaus of Forestry and State Parks are about to adopt a common set of regulations. We shall have to wait and see what revisions to the various current proposed and tentative regulations come out of their October 23rd meeting.

[+lostinjersey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reamerstraff:

On July 18, 2002, Boy Scout Troop 9 placed the Moose Hill Geocache....The container is an olive-drab 50mm ammo canister, chosen because it is rugged, unbreakable, and watertight. The outside of the can bears a large Boy Scout decal and the legend, “Moose Hill Geocache” in large stenciled letters in yellow paint.

 

Subsequently, the troop learned of the registration regulations for geocaches in state parks. We requested and received a “Geocache Identification Form.” When we received the form, we discovered that Regulation #3 included the following statement:

 

“Container shall be of a transparent material that will allow users to identify the presence or absence of hazardous material prior to opening. The use of glass is prohibited.”

 

We have no quarrel with the prohibition of glass due to the likelihood of breakage. But to prohibit opaque containers is unreasonable. Mr. Marcinic told me that the regulations are still in draft form, and subject to revision. He offered his opinion that plainly labeled opaque containers would probably be acceptable, and suggested that the Boy Scout troop sign and submit the agreement with the transparency requirement crossed out. The troop did so.

 

On October 3, 2002, the manager of Yellow Creek State Park sent the following letter to me:

 

We have received your signed copy of the Geocache Identification Form for the Moose Hill Geocache to be maintained at Yellow Creek State Park by Boy Scout Troop 9. My review of the document revealed that the special condition requiring the use of a transparent container was crossed out. In your cover letter you outlined your objections to the transparent container requirement.

 

Geocaches have been in place at other State Parks for a couple of years, and none have suffered from your concerns listed in #3 of your letter. More importantly, the person responsible for maintaining the geocache is also responsible for maintaining the container.

 

We do not feel that the special conditions listed in the agreement are negotiable. A transparent container is required for a geocache located on Yellow Creek State Park.

---

 

Can someone tell me what container we could use that would meet the requirement of A) being clear and not be made of glass. Standard containers include ammo boxes, film cannisters, and prescription bottles. Often used are chinese food containers, and tupperwear both of which let light thru but more often then not are not clear enough to identify contents inside.

 

So what exactly are we supposed to use?

 

This may seem off topic, but I made friends while on vacation with 3 guys from Holland and one thing they kept asking about what lawsuits and legal requirements and waivers & that whole area of discussion. It seems that everyone is getting so legalistic & paranoid of lawsuits that even basic activities require forms in triplicate and insurance. Sheesh. I mean I understand to a point why the forest dept is worried. They don't want to see somebody fall from a cliff and die while searching for a 5 terrain cache but this all seems like overkill to me. And please, don't even mention talk about fears of terrorism. "Hmmm let me hide a bomb in the woods where only geeks will look for it once in a while." (no offense meant, I'm a geek too folks )

 

 

www.gpswnj.com

[+LaPaglia]

Check with several local resturants, They use Gallon size plastic jars, some of which are clear, to look like glass. The first ones that come to mind are pickle jars and Mayo or Salad Dressing Jars. The other option is to make a container. I am working on making a Plexiglass Ammo can. Ill post it when I get it right.

 

Lapaglia

Muga Muchu (forget yourself, focus)

 

EDIT: A though just occured to me, Take an Ammo can and cut most of the two long sides out, replace them with plexiglass and it should meet your requirments. just attach the Plexi from the inside with Epoxy.

[+embra]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reamerstraff:

We shall have to wait and see what revisions to the various current proposed and tentative regulations come out of their October 23rd meeting.

---

 

I know it's an unnecessary question (as the answer would be offered without prompting) but I am too darn impatient: any word of that meeting?

[+Tomebug]

I was directed to Ranger Clark Verchuck to get permission for a cache in a local State Forest, he replied very quickly with this form:

--------------------------------------------

 

COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION & NATURAL RESOURCES

BUREAU OF FORESTRY

 

GEOCACHE IDENTIFICATION FORM

 

This agreement is made this _____ day of _____________________, by and between the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Bureau of Forestry (“FORESTRY”) and __________________________ (“RESPONSIBLE PARTY”).

 

The RESPONSIBLE PARTY desires to place a geocache at the following location in _____________ State Forest District _____:

 

SITE NAME (if any): ______________________________________

TOWNSHIP: ____________________________________________

COUNTY: ______________________________________________

LATITUDE: _____________________________________________

LONGITUDE: ___________________________________________

 

The DEPARTMENT is willing to permit the RESPONSIBLE PARTY to place the above geocache, subject to the conditions listed below:

 

1. Geocache container description (size, color, container material): ______________________________________________________________________

 

2. This permission is in effect for the period beginning _______________ through _____________________ (not to exceed 1 year); however, the permission may be revoked at any time by the DEPARTMENT acting through a District Forester or designee.

 

3. PNDI Search Results: _________________________________________

 

4. REPONSIBLE PARTY is not permitted to do the following:

 

a. Earth disturbance or vegetative impact to the approved geocache site.

 

b. Move or alter approved geocache location.

 

c. Allow the insertion of hazardous materials in the geocache container.

 

d. Other (state “no other conditions” or list other conditions): ___________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________

 

5. RESPONSIBLE PARTY will remove geocache on or before the date of expiration of this permission; however, if this permission is revoked, RESPONSIBLE PARTY will remove the geocache immediately upon being informed of the revocation by the District Forester or designee.

 

6. RESPONSIBLE PARTY agrees to defend, indemnify, and hold harmless DEPARTMENT and its agents from any claim for injury to any person or damage to any property sustained as a result of the placement or existence of the geocache or as a result of the use of the geocache by any other person with any device or for any purpose.

 

7. RESPONSIBLE PARTY releases DEPARTMENT and its agents from any claim arising from injury to RESPONSIBLE PARTY or any other person or damage to any property which might be sustained as a result of RESPONSIBLE PARTY’S engaging in geocache hunting.

 

8. DEPARTMENT does not assume responsibility or liability for injury to any person or damage to any property sustained as a result of the placement or existence of the geocache, or use of the geocache by any person with any device or for any purpose.

 

9. DEPARTMENT does not assume responsibility or liability for RESPONSIBLE PARTY’S safety or the consequences of RESPONSIBLE PARTY’S engaging in geocaching.

 

10. This agreement may not be construed as a waiver of any immunity DEPARTMENT may have.

--------------------------------------------

 

 

I don't see a problem with the one year expiration date, as long as it is renewable after review (I'll ask him about that). I do have a problem with the liability part. Isn't this the same concern we had about the State Park liability stuff?

 

I have emailed him about this, I'll post the response when I get it. Do any of you have suggestions? I will contact him again if I have good input for him, but I'm not a writer, your help would be appreciated!

[Eeyore and Shadow]

The release of liablility has played on my mind for some time. The purpose of most parks is to invite the community to use the park. And areas are asigned for use and some areas are reserved for some reaon or another. This I have no problem with. The issue that bothers me is geocaching is generally a trail based activity. The off trail portion of geocaching which usually isn't very long or far definitly should release the park of liablity. These areas aren't maintaned as recreation areas. The problem I am having is the release in the forms i've seen release the park of complete liability. Lets say that a geocacher is on a marked an maintaned trail, an area that all people have been invited and encouraged to use. While crossing a foot bridge on this trail, which is maintaned by the park, the decking breaks and the person walking across it is impaled by the broken shards of wood, or is injured in some other way. Under normal conditions the park is liable to an extent because thier maintenace of the bridge has been inadequate. But if injured person happens to have a geocaching hat on they are expeced to belive this is a normal hazard of geocaching and the park is not liable? This rant has come to a colse please excuse the person pulling thier hair out and whispering about the little men on the flying gerbils.

 

Eeyore

 

Get a whole lot of cache for the investment of a little change.

[+The Leprechauns]

Tomebug -

 

THANKS for posting the form. Unfortunately, with Forestry we are right back where we were in July with the State Park folks. At that time, a few of us pointed out the problems with the indemnification clause (which is far worse than a release of liability). Parks then dropped the indemnity on the theory that geocaching is not an inherently hazardous activity. I just wish they would finish their form and publish definitive rules! And now it looks like we need to have the Forestry folks make the same move, and delete the indemnity.

 

Eeyore -

 

Your example about the poorly maintained bridge is pretty much the same as my first posting to the old thread, where I used the bridge example to show why an indemnity clause is bad. Cache seeker trips on poorly maintained bridge, but cache hider indemnifies the State and pays to settle the lawsuit and feed the sharks, errr, lawyers. Go figure. Great minds think alike.

 

I continue to be OK with the release language. I think anyone who ventures outdoors ought to assume the risk that stuff can and will happen to them. I'm not looking to sue someone else unless they intentionally do something to harm me. Like the hikes to some of Quest Master's caches. ;-)

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Please attend our seminar, "Geocaching for Time Travelers," which will be held two weeks ago.

[+MissJenn]

Gah!

It's been a long time (too long) since I was on these boards.

 

[This message was edited by MissJenn on November 18, 2002 at 09:20 AM.]

[+Team Apollo]

Has anyone heard anything if the draft for the PA State Parks for geocaching is completed

[+The Leprechauns]

In looking through my old cache finds, I noticed that this cache had recently been removed at the request of DCNR. So, don't think that they aren't searching the site and reading these boards!

 

Shafer Rock Shadow was a wonderfully placed geocache, hidden UP inside a hollow tree along a nice trail. I really enjoyed hunting for it. That being said, I am NOT surprised nor angry at its being removed. The cache was located in a designated wildflower preserve, where signs tell you to stay on the trails. The fact that this cache had to be removed, while other caches placed in less-sensitive areas of state parks are allowed to remain, gives us an idea of how DCNR might apply their policy (if it is EVER completed).

 

I have had my eye on the park where this cache was placed, Raccoon Creek State Park. When we have a policy to work with, I look forward to meeting the ranger there and placing some new caches.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

If there's no accounting for stupidity, then why do I need to file a tax return?

[+Salvelinus]

I just became aware that geocaching in State Parks and State Forest will be discussed at the Annual State Conference of the Pennsylvania Recreation and Parks Society. The topic will be discussed by Matthew Marcinck, Charlie Meade (both from DCNR) and a Geocacher whom I believe may be Quest Master.

 

The conference will be held during early March in State College, PA. This looks to be a great opportunity for all parties involved to get some things hashed out. I know I will attend.

 

For more information Check out their website Here follow the link to calender of events and look for their brochure on the conference. The Geocaching session is on pg 23 of the .pdf file.

 

If the cacher involved in this conference reads this, please send me an e-mail. I do live locally and would like to assist you in any way I can.

 

Regards,

Salvelinus

(formerly "smoochnme")

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Salvelinus]

As an add on to the above post...I don't think this conference is open to the public. You may have to join the society. I'm sure membership information is on their website.

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[Mike Chmi]

Looks like we may finally be getting something, wish I was closer so I could attend.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+Quest Master]

I apologize for taking so long to do this post.

 

It is true that I will be a speaker at the Pennsylvania Recreation & Park Society’s annual conference in State College. The conference is open to the general public but its intended audience is state, county, and city parks and recreation managers and vendors trying to sell them stuff. I doubt that very much of it would be of specific interest to geocachers other than the session entitled “Geocaching – What It Is and How to Manage It” to be held on Tuesday, March 4 at 1:30 PM. The cost to attend the three-day conference is $325 and the cost to attend just one day is $100. I can probably arrange to get a limited number of “Guest” passes for $25 for anyone who would really like to be there to attend the session and put in their two cents. Please email me ASAP if interested.

 

I am uncomfortable with the idea of arbitrarily being picked to represent geocaching at this conference. I intend to make it clear that I do not officially represent geocaching in Pennsylvania and that nobody else does either. I am not receiving a fee for speaking at the conference and I am not being reimbursed for any expenses. I am not a parks and recreation professional. My only qualification is that I am an avid geocacher. I believe that the primary purpose in me being at the conference is to answer any specific questions that park managers have about geocaching. I will do what I can to answer their questions truthfully and present geocaching in a positive way. I will borrow heavily from the posts to this topic and do my best to represent the opinions of everyone. Please email me or post to this topic if you have something to say or any ideas about what I should present at the session. Any contribution will be appreciated.

 

I believe that we have little to fear from these people. Geocaching sells itself. It is necessary only to explain geocaching to them so that they understand it and know that it is basically harmless and does not interfere with other park activities. We already have a lot of support from people within the Pennsylvania DCNR Bureau of State Parks. This is as good an opportunity as any to promote good relations between park managers and the geocaching community.

 

Johnny

[+Salvelinus]

Just wanted to roll this one back up.

 

The conference is Tuesday (March 4) and Quest and I are attending. Stay tuned for some "hot of the press" information next week.

 

I see this as a "win-win" opportunity for all. I plan on re-reading this tread before I go so thanks for all your input!

 

Salvelinus

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+The Leprechauns]

Quest Master and Salvelinus, thank you both for your work! You'll be fine representatives for our sport. Smile and shake lots of hands. And make note of the Earth Day Cache-in, Trash-out park cleanup events being discussed over in this thread. Stating at the conference that we will be doing coordinated park cleanups across the state can't do anything to hurt our cause.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

I was formerly employed by the Department of Redundancy Department, but I don't work there anymore.

[+Quest Master]

Does anybody happen to have coordinates for the Penn Stater? I might not be able to find it otherwise!

 

Johnny

[+IV_Warrior]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quest Master:

Does anybody happen to have coordinates for the Penn Stater? I might not be able to find it otherwise!

 

Johnny

---

 

Well the coordinates I was able to get were:

40:49:37.034N

77:50:59.806W

 

Alternately, the driving directions listed here seem relatively straight forward.

 

I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should happen to get back before I return, please ask me to wait.

[+IV_Warrior]

Can we get an update about how the meeting went?

 

I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should happen to get back before I return, please ask me to wait.

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by IV_Warrior:

Can we get an update about how the meeting went?

 

I'm lost. I've gone to find myself. If I should happen to get back before I return, please ask me to wait.

---

 

Sorry about the delay in responding.

 

The presentation went really well. The main presentation was given by Dan Bickle from Ohiopyle State Park. He did a great job explaining to the park and forest managers in attendence how they can manage geocaching, basically from their desktops. Quest Master also did an outstanding job explaining the many aspects of our game. All I did was throw in my 2 cents every now and then.

 

Most of the discussion centered around what geocaching is and how Park and Forest Managers can manage it. Overall, there was (I think) one person out of about 15 attendees who seemed a bit uncomfortable with geocaching. Everyone else seemed to think it was a great activity and a few even said they wanted to place a cache in their park.

 

I specifically asked if the registration process was currently in place for geocaches on state parks and state forests. I was told that it was, and that geocachers with caches in State Parks and/or State Forest should get them registered ASAP. If not, you should expect them to be removed. The managers are learning about this website and beginning to use it.

 

We were also given a copy of DCNR's guidelines on Geocaching in State Parks and State Forests. The guidelines seemed very reasonable to me. I cannot recall any liability clauses or unreasonable limitations, but I have not had the time to read it completly. The guidelines are not quite finalized and may still be revised. But, being a resource agency employee myself, they don't hand out policy guidelines to the public and then include major revisions to them. Some minor things that may change would be to exclude the 3 year time limit for a cache and to be less restrictive on the type of container allowed for caches, providing the container has an "official Geocache" sticker on it. Which the DCNR said it would provide. I thought that was cool! It seemed that future revisions would be in our favor.

 

All and all, I thought the session was very positive and productive. The DCNR seems to be very willing to embrace geocaching in our parks and forests as long as we stick to the reasonable guidelines that have been developed. The next step is up to us. If you have a cache in a State Park or Forest, set up a meeting with the manager and get your cache registered. Also, it may not be a bad idea to establish a friendly relationship with them as well which would benefit the entire geocaching community.

 

Knowing us PA cachers and where we place caches, some will be quite busy registering them!

 

I think we all can be proud of what we all have accomplished so far. No doubt the interest and passion expressed in the numerous correspondance given to the DCNR has shaped these guidelines. I also think we were able to peak much positive interest in geocaching among many park and forest managers. Some have even already participated! Imagine what we would of ended up with if we said nothing?

 

I hope Quest Master adds his thoughts here as well. There may be something I missed, but If you have more questions, post here or drop me an e-mail.

 

Regards,

Salvelinus

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+cache chasers]

LOL I don' thave the time to sit and read 38 posts...so give me the scoop on what I have to do to place a cache in a state park. I would like to place one ASAP in Shawnee State Park, Schellsburg, PA

[+PSUPAUL]

I would call the park and ask to speak to the manager. He can tell you what he requires. The manager at Ricketts Glen SP has been great and just wants to be aware of placed cache locations in advance.

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by cache chasers:

LOL I don' thave the time to sit and read 38 posts...so give me the scoop on what I have to do to place a cache in a state park. I would like to place one ASAP in Shawnee State Park, Schellsburg, PA

---

 

I apologize that it wasn't clear that you need to call or visit the State Park or State Forest office to register a cache. I recommend a visit since the cache site will probably have to be visited and approved before it is officially registered.

 

There will be some extra work involved in placing caches in these areas from now on. But, I see that as a plus.

 

Contact me if you need more info.

 

Salvelinus

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Renegade Knight]

The requirment for a clear cache container may seem reasonable however no container will remain clear. Abrasions, UV rays and the like will render any container (except glass) translucent at best.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

[+retphoto]

May we Assume that if a Cache is approved by the parks, that Geocaching will back it up and automatically approve it??

 

I know I asked this before, but I didn't see a responce. I know that it would be unlikely that another cache would be located close to a park approved site, but there could be.

 

There is nothing like a Packrat who is a geocacher.

[+PSUPAUL]

Geo-Packrat,

 

I don't think you can automatically assume that Geocaching.com will approve is PA Parks approve. They do not interact with each other. But, in my opinion as long as you follow the GC guidelines you should not have a problem getting approval. The only hang ups I have heard about were for locationless and virtual caches and regular caches too close to other regular caches.

 

So, that being said, go for it!

 

PSUPAUL

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by geo-Packrat:

May we Assume that if a Cache is approved by the parks, that Geocaching will back it up and automatically approve it??

 

I know I asked this before, but I didn't see a responce. I know that it would be unlikely that another cache would be located close to a park approved site, but there could be.

 

There is nothing like a Packrat who is a geocacher.

---

 

Short answer: No, but very likely!

 

There may be additional problems with the cache that the website would deny it for. But, I think that situation would be very rare...but possible.

 

You should get State Parks approval before submitting your cache page to the website for their approval. Remember to mention in the cache description that you have received approval from State Parks.

 

Good Luck!

 

Salvelinus

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[+Salvelinus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

The requirment for a clear cache container may seem reasonable however no container will remain clear. Abrasions, UV rays and the like will render any container (except glass) translucent at best.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

---

 

Very true!

 

They were not too hung up on the container requirement as long as it had an official Geocache Sticker on it. And they even said that they would provide the stickers! That was a bit of a pleasant surprise to me.

 

Each office/manager may be different, so you may have to work with them a bit on their preferences.

 

Salvelinus

 

"The trail will be long and full of frustrations. Life is a whole and good and evil must be accepted together"

 

Ralph Abele

[Mike Chmi]

I emailed the head ranger at Presque Isle a few days back about registering my Fellowship of the Rings cache, and haven't heard back yet. In the past he was pretty prompt with his responses so I'm wondering if they know what's going on yet or not.

 

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

[+gnbrotz]

As of this post, the terms "geocache" and "geocaching" still do not appear anywhere on the DCNR website. My personal opinion is when the policy is publicly posted, I will again approach my local officials. I've made contact with both my local State Park, and State Forestry office, and neither knew enough to be of any help. When they post the info on their website, at least I'll be able to show them their own policy.

 

I pulled two caches when the guidelines were 'enacted'; but as soon as the snow is gone and I can get back in the woods, they're going back out. I don't expect enforcement of a policy when they can't even discuss it's parameters with me. I support their efforts, but I expect them to get their act together and be knowledgeable of their own policies before they expect ME to abide by them.

 

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

[+IV_Warrior]

Can we safely assume that ammo cans are OK in state parks now? I was just e-mailed info about placing a cache in a state park by a state park ranger. There were two documents, one about geocaching in general and the second a form to fill out. The only restriction I saw mentioned on containers was no plastic (PVC) pipe. I didn't see any mention of containers needing to me clear. The cache name does have to be on the outside of the container.

 

There were several restrictions on locations (no sensitive/dangerous areas) and contents (no hazardous materials/porno etc.) but containers seemed pretty limitless. The just don't want PVC, probably because they might resemble pipe bombs....

 

Just because you're paranoid DOESN'T mean they're not ALL out to get you.